The Full potential of Lightweaving : theory

[RShara]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

No problem. Though follow up question, when it is mentioned in the book that Radiant is wearing garnet shardplate, and when Jasnah tries to grab Shallan, she goes poof, but Radiant is the real one. Do you believe the shardplate on Radiant is real or illusory?

I think that the Shardplate is illusory, or wasn't even on the Radiant that Jasnah touched. It was on Radiant when she first appeared, but that doesn't mean it was on Shallan-as-Radiant.

In addition, Brandon has said that he wants someone getting Shardplate to have a pretty nice reveal. He's not going to have it happen offhand like that. Plus, Jasnah made a point of asking Shallan if she had her Shardplate yet when Shallan claimed to be a full Radiant. If Shallan had accomplished Shardplate at that time, I'm certain Jasnah would have said something.

 

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think that the Shardplate is illusory, or wasn't even on the Radiant that Jasnah touched. It was on Radiant when she first appeared, but that doesn't mean it was on Shallan-as-Radiant.

In addition, Brandon has said that he wants someone getting Shardplate to have a pretty nice reveal. He's not going to have it happen offhand like that. Plus, Jasnah made a point of asking Shallan if she had her Shardplate yet when Shallan claimed to be a full Radiant. If Shallan had accomplished Shardplate at that time, I'm certain Jasnah would have said something.

 

Hmmm. In the scene Jasnah grabs Shallan first. Shallan puffs away. Jasnah then looks to Veil, but Radiant says "here". Then the book says Radiant is the one Jasnah could feel. Shallan asks if Jasnah is real, and Jasnah says yes, then touches Radiant's arm. Unless you are saying Radiant appeared with Shardplate, but then dismissed it for some reason, and then folded that illusion over Shallan, while Shallan created another illusion of Shallan? Just trying to understand better. 

Also Jasnah making a point to ask Shallan about her shardplate was in the beginning of the novel. People theorize Jasnah has been summoning her own armor nonplussed. I would imagine the same would stand for seeing another radiant with armor. In fact Jasnah assumed Shallan was more proficient with soulcasting than Shallan is, and corrects herself. So maybe she saw the armor, assumed Shallan had full access to the abilities of a Lightweaver of that oath level, but then realized Shallan had difficulty? Just throwing ideas out

 

(side note when it mentioned earlier in the novel that Radiant has shardplate, it mentions her hair is braided, so I would assume it means she was not wearing a helmet)

Edited January 23, 2020 by Pathfinder

[RShara]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Hmmm. In the scene Jasnah grabs Shallan first. Shallan puffs away. Jasnah then looks to Veil, but Radiant says "here". Then the book says Radiant is the one Jasnah could feel. Shallan asks if Jasnah is real, and Jasnah says yes, then touches Radiant's arm. Unless you are saying Radiant appeared with Shardplate, but then dismissed it for some reason, and then folded that illusion over Shallan, while Shallan created another illusion of Shallan? Just trying to understand better. 

Also Jasnah making a point to ask Shallan about her shardplate was in the beginning of the novel. People theorize Jasnah has been summoning her own armor nonplussed. I would imagine the same would stand for seeing another radiant with armor. In fact Jasnah assumed Shallan was more proficient with soulcasting than Shallan is, and corrects herself. So maybe she saw the armor, assumed Shallan had full access to the abilities of a Lightweaver of that oath level, but then realized Shallan had difficulty? Just throwing ideas out

Well there are arguments either way. But my reasoning was that Jasnah would have said something, and Radiant wouldn't have always been wearing it.

Shallan made multiple Veils and Radiants. And she was straining to keep the illusions going toward the end. It'd make lots of sense that the Radiant that she was at the time wasn't wearing even illusionary Shardplate, either to conserve strength/Stormlight or because that one wasn't wearing any.

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A hulking variety of Fused had organized the enemy. These refused to be distracted. Though Veil, Shallan, and Radiant had made copies of themselves—to keep the real ones from being attacked—those died as well.

Wavering. Stormlight running out.

We’ve strained ourselves too far, they thought.

Also

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“Yes, Shallan. You did well out here.” She touched Radiant’s arm, then glanced toward the Fused, who were venturing into the fires despite the heat. “Damnation. Perhaps I should have opened a pit beneath them instead.”

Arm, not Shardplate, armor, or armor covered arm. And she was so nonchalant about it being Radiant, she doesn't react at all to what she's wearing. I have a hard time believing that Jasnah would have let Shallan managing Shardplate pass without any reaction at all.

Edited January 23, 2020 by RShara

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, RShara said:

Well there are arguments either way. But my reasoning was that Jasnah would have said something, and Radiant wouldn't have always been wearing it.

Yeah, there are some points I will make below. Not to belabor, state you have to see it my way, or to nitpick. Just some thoughts. 

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Shallan made multiple Veils and Radiants. And she was straining to keep the illusions going toward the end. It'd make lots of sense that the Radiant that she was at the time wasn't wearing even illusionary Shardplate, either to conserve strength/Stormlight or because that one wasn't wearing any.

Well the illusions that were fighting for Shallan were summoned away from her, while Radiant, Veil, and the other personalities that were struggling to came out, came out at her feet and she forced them down. So to me, the "original" Veil and Radiant were by Shallan. The Radiant that had armor was by Shallan, and the Radiant Jasnah ultimately touched were by Shallan. That is why I equate the two. 

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Arm, not Shardplate, armor, or armor covered arm. And she was so nonchalant about it being Radiant, she doesn't react at all to what she's wearing. I have a hard time believing that Jasnah would have let Shallan managing Shardplate pass without any reaction at all.

If you check the scenes where Dalinar and Adolin are in shardplate, or any other individual in shardplate, when someone grabs the other, it states arm or leg. It doesn't make the point of having to say "shardplated arm" or "shardplated leg". I think it would be redundant to have to include that to denote Radiant was still wearing it. But I acknowledge it is still very much open to interpretation. As I said, not attempting to argue, or make anyone agree or disagree with me. Just some thoughts on the subject. 

Edited January 23, 2020 by Pathfinder

[RShara]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Yeah, there are some points I will make below. Not to belabor, state you have to see it my way, or to nitpick. Just some thoughts. 

Well the illusions that were fighting for Shallan were summoned away from her, while Radiant, Veil, and the other personalities that were struggling to came out, came out at her feet and she forced them down. So to me, the "original" Veil and Radiant were by Shallan. The Radiant that had armor was by Shallan, and the Radiant Jasnah ultimately touched were by Shallan. That is why I equate the two. 

If you check the scenes where Dalinar and Adolin are in shardplate, or any other individual in shardplate, when someone grabs the other, it states arm or leg. It doesn't make the point of having to say "shardplated arm" or "shardplated leg". I think it would be redundant to have to include that to denote Radiant was still wearing it. But I acknowledge it is still very much open to interpretation. As I said, not attempting to argue, or make anyone agree or disagree with me. Just some thoughts on the subject. 

She recreated them at least once. Lift sees her hugging herself, not Veil and Radiant.

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Storms. It was beautiful. She gripped Veil’s and Radiant’s hands tighter. They knelt beside her, heads bowed within her painted tapestry of violence, her—

“Hey,” a girl’s voice said. “Could you, uh, stop hugging yourself for a minute? I need some help.”

And that sort of has to be the case, since Shallan wasn't moving between the illusions of Veil and Radiant. She was creating them over and over again, but which one she was wearing was changing.

And also, like I said, Jasnah not saying anything, and Brandon saying he wants Shardplate to be a big reveal.

[Pathfinder]

14 minutes ago, RShara said:

She recreated them at least once. Lift sees her hugging herself, not Veil and Radiant.

Later on:

"Shallan, Veil, and Radiant held hands in a ring. The three flowed, faces changing, identities melding. Together, they had raised an army."

She was merging with them on and off which is why Jasnah confused which one was Shallan. 

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And that sort of has to be the case, since Shallan wasn't moving between the illusions of Veil and Radiant. She was creating them over and over again, but which one she was wearing was changing.

The above quote has her merging and shifting between the three. Sometimes she is them, sometimes they are she. Melding and separating. 

Quote

And also, like I said, Jasnah not saying anything, and Brandon saying he wants Shardplate to be a big reveal.

Personally I disagree. Jasnah when she first ran into Shallan when Jasnah "came back from the dead" spoke to Shallan about immediate concerns. Only after Shallan's sarcastic barb about all she has done without Jasnah resulted in Jasnah calling it to attention and stating she was impressed. The more immediately pressing issue took precedent over commenting on Shallan's advancement. So it seems plausible to me that Jasnah would more focus on Shallan's well being than commenting on her shardplate. As to the WoB, that is your interpretation of it. There are hints of shardplate with Jasnah and Dalinar without it ruining a big reveal. I think the same stands for this. 

To clarify that small paragraph, not trying to be argumentative and say you are wrong. Just saying some thoughts and that it could be seen another way. To each their own. 

Edited January 23, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

3 hours ago, RShara said:

Mmmm illusions with some slight resistance to them is very far from illusions that are solid.

Hm.  I suppose it would be more accurate to think them as liquid illusions.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

 

A hulking variety of Fused had organized the enemy. These refused to be distracted. Though Veil, Shallan, and Radiant had made copies of themselves—to keep the real ones from being attacked—those died as well.

Wavering. Stormlight running out.

We’ve strained ourselves too far, they thought.

I feel like something important is in this paragraph . How does an illusion make a copy of itself ? Could it be too crazy to wonder if Shallan created a solid image of Veil and Radiant . And those images were capable of producing copies ? Or am I just looking at this wrong ! @Pathfinder how do interpret this ?

[Aon Tia]

3 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I feel like something important is in this paragraph . How does an illusion make a copy of itself ? Could it be too crazy to wonder if Shallan created a solid image of Veil and Radiant .

3 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

 

I always took it to simply mean that shallan had made those illusions but she was referring to herself as all three- shallan, veil and radiant. She had so fragmented herself at that point she was unable to decide which one is real. To further illustrate my point, I want to remind the instance where: From shallan’s pov, it looks like there are three real solid versions of her, actual shallan, solid illusions of veil and radiant 

but lift comes near shallan and refers to her as ‘lady too busy hugging herself’. This tells us that when shallan thinks all three are hugging each other, it is actually just shallan hugging herself!! 
 

3 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Could it be too crazy to wonder if Shallan created a solid image of Veil and Radiant

So, no I don’t think she created solid images of veil and radiant. Those were just her imagination and other people ( I.e. lift and Jasnah) only saw one shallan. 
 

3 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

And those images were capable of producing copies ?

No, that is not what happened. Shallan alone was creating those illusions but she was referring to herself as Shallan-veil-radiant because she could not decide which multiple personality of hers is the real original one! Or You can say which one she would ultimately like to be or in the end, which one she would keep. 
That is also why I think Adolin was able to help her somewhat, because it is his love towards Shallan that makes her choose shallan as ‘this is me’ over veil and radiant. 

Edited January 24, 2020 by The Traveller

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

@Traveller good freaking answer!

[Aon Tia]

6 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

@Traveller good freaking answer!

 Thank you @SzethIsBadAsHell 

Although my answer to your above question is a ‘no’, I still think that my answer to your original idea i.e. whether lightweavers can create solid illusions by combining both surges of illumination and transformation, is an absolute yes. I think it should be possible and Jasnah and shallan both suspected as what happened. However, I doubt if that is what shallan is doing at the end of OB, atleast not properly and not consciously, because she has neglected to learn about soulcasting so far. 
 

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, The Traveller said:

Although my answer to your above question is a ‘no’, I still think that my answer to your original idea i.e. whether lightweavers can create solid illusions by combining both surges of illumination and transformation, is an absolute yes. I think it should be possible and Jasnah and shallan both suspected as what happened. However, I doubt if that is what shallan is doing at the end of OB, atleast not properly and not consciously, because she has neglected to learn about soulcasting so far. 

She is also not a fully developed" Lightweaver yet she is only passed the third oath. 

[Bigmikey357]

So the ultimate Fully Truthed Lightweaver should in theory be able to construct fully touchable and interactive illusions responsive to all 5 senses as long as the Stormlight holds out. If the Midnight Mother can be used as a reference,  say the dark mirror of Lightweaving, then I suppose it should be possible.  It doesn't violate Realmatic rules as far as I can tell, and it makes Shallan and her ilk much more dangerous as an Order than their name and nature implies.

 That of course raises some questions about the constructs,  namely what is the threshold of force needed to dispel or shatter such an illusion.  Also, Stormlight consumption.  How many of those solid illusions could one make given an average amount of Stormlight?  How quickly would one burn through its fuel? If one is shattered by whatever means,  is the non used fuel recoverable and does the Shattering hurt the caster?

[Aon Tia]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

She is also not a fully developed" Lightweaver yet she is only passed the third oath. 

Exactly! I believe it is something she can very much do but once she progresses in her oaths. May be 5 th ideal gives KRs the ability to properly combine both surges.

 

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

So the ultimate Fully Truthed Lightweaver should in theory be able to construct fully touchable and interactive illusions responsive to all 5 senses as long as the Stormlight holds out. If the Midnight Mother can be used as a reference,  say the dark mirror of Lightweaving, then I suppose it should be possible.  It doesn't violate Realmatic rules as far as I can tell, and it makes Shallan and her ilk much more dangerous as an Order than their name and nature implies

 That of course raises some questions about the constructs,  namely what is the threshold of force needed to dispel or shatter such an illusion.  Also, Stormlight consumption.  How many of those solid illusions could one make given an average amount of Stormlight?  How quickly would one burn through its fuel? If one is shattered by whatever means,  is the non used fuel recoverable and does the Shattering hurt the caster?

Yup agreed. All these are very valid and very interesting questions !

[RShara]

4 hours ago, The Traveller said:

I always took it to simply mean that shallan had made those illusions but she was referring to herself as all three- shallan, veil and radiant. She had so fragmented herself at that point she was unable to decide which one is real. To further illustrate my point, I want to remind the instance where: From shallan’s pov, it looks like there are three real solid versions of her, actual shallan, solid illusions of veil and radiant 

but lift comes near shallan and refers to her as ‘lady too busy hugging herself’. This tells us that when shallan thinks all three are hugging each other, it is actually just shallan hugging herself!! 
 

So, no I don’t think she created solid images of veil and radiant. Those were just her imagination and other people ( I.e. lift and Jasnah) only saw one shallan. 
 

No, that is not what happened. Shallan alone was creating those illusions but she was referring to herself as Shallan-veil-radiant because she could not decide which multiple personality of hers is the real original one! Or You can say which one she would ultimately like to be or in the end, which one she would keep. 
That is also why I think Adolin was able to help her somewhat, because it is his love towards Shallan that makes her choose shallan as ‘this is me’ over veil and radiant. 

That's basically what I was trying to say, with just a little bit of a difference

[Aon Tia]

10 minutes ago, RShara said:

That's basically what I was trying to say, with just a little bit of a difference

 Thank you and I agree with everything you have said on the thread too .

[Pathfinder]

12 hours ago, The Traveller said:

I always took it to simply mean that shallan had made those illusions but she was referring to herself as all three- shallan, veil and radiant. She had so fragmented herself at that point she was unable to decide which one is real. To further illustrate my point, I want to remind the instance where: From shallan’s pov, it looks like there are three real solid versions of her, actual shallan, solid illusions of veil and radiant 

So I agree it was always Shallan, but just to clarify my earlier post a bit. The description was that the three of them were shifting and merging. The imagery I got at least is picture three people standing. Their faces and clothing, etc flow between them, that is the shifting. Then the merging is then flow together into one. That one could look like Shallan, or Radiant, or Veil, or a combination of any of the three. Then flow back out to three, shifting again. So what I am saying is Lift showed up at the time when they merged into one, but in Shallan's head they are still three. I think this because then later Jasnah does come up, and sees three separate individuals, and goes to reach out to the one that looks like Shallan. That one puffs away, but the one that looks like Radiant remains and says "here". So I believe Jasnah caught Shallan at the point of shifting and merging, where she was "standing in" as Radiant. Radiant who was the one able to deal with the 2rd truth (3rd oath) for a shardblade, and based on the illusion shown earlier on the 3rd truth (4th oath) for shardplate. It is theorized that Shallan is up to her 4th oath as of Oathbringer. So theoretically Shallan should already be capable of shardplate. Hopefully that clarified what I was saying. 

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

So the ultimate Fully Truthed Lightweaver should in theory be able to construct fully touchable and interactive illusions responsive to all 5 senses as long as the Stormlight holds out. If the Midnight Mother can be used as a reference,  say the dark mirror of Lightweaving, then I suppose it should be possible.  It doesn't violate Realmatic rules as far as I can tell, and it makes Shallan and her ilk much more dangerous as an Order than their name and nature implies.

 That of course raises some questions about the constructs,  namely what is the threshold of force needed to dispel or shatter such an illusion.  Also, Stormlight consumption.  How many of those solid illusions could one make given an average amount of Stormlight?  How quickly would one burn through its fuel? If one is shattered by whatever means,  is the non used fuel recoverable and does the Shattering hurt the caster?

So as to the questions about the constructs, this is all utterly conjecture but I could see it working this way. Perhaps the number and complexity determines? So for instance, if I were to create 100 illusions, I will have trouble controlling all of them at once, and they will be weaker. If however I create one, and focus on that one alone, I could see that construct being stronger, more resistant to damage, and maybe even (depending on how much stormlight I have) being able to reform/heal the construct as it is damaged.