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The Full potential of Lightweaving : theory


SzethIsBadAsHell

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So I was sitting around watching Star Trek and something clicked in my head. I was wondering if a very experienced lightweaver could make solid illusions . 
        I played a lot of Dungeons and Dragons when I was a kid . So I know illusions come 3 types . Auditory , visual , and tactile. The best illusions are ones you can touch hear and see . Kind of like the solid holograms in the Holideck on Star Trek . 
       So I got to wonder if a lightweaver had enough stormlight and was skilled enough to soulcast air could they make a solid illusion by blending the two surges together. 
       During the battle of Thaylan City with all that Stormlight Jasnah was wondering if Shallan was doing just that . Shallan is not very good at soulcasting but I bet the Herald that was a lightweaver is . 
      So anyways does anybody think that it’s possible for a lightweaver to make a solid illusion? Let’s say a knight with a sword or better yet a great shell that was solid . I don’t have to explain the potential of being able to do so . You could literally kill somebody with quasi - stormlight illusion . Thoughts ??? 

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1 hour ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

So I was sitting around watching Star Trek and something clicked in my head. I was wondering if a very experienced lightweaver could make solid illusions . 
        I played a lot of Dungeons and Dragons when I was a kid . So I know illusions come 3 types . Auditory , visual , and tactile. The best illusions are ones you can touch hear and see . Kind of like the solid holograms in the Holideck on Star Trek . 
       So I got to wonder if a lightweaver had enough stormlight and was skilled enough to soulcast air could they make a solid illusion by blending the two surges together. 
       During the battle of Thaylan City with all that Stormlight Jasnah was wondering if Shallan was doing just that . Shallan is not very good at soulcasting but I bet the Herald that was a lightweaver is . 
      So anyways does anybody think that it’s possible for a lightweaver to make a solid illusion? Let’s say a knight with a sword or better yet a great shell that was solid . I don’t have to explain the potential of being able to do so . You could literally kill somebody with quasi - stormlight illusion . Thoughts ??? 

"Please state the nature of the Soulcasting emergency."

I personally think that using Lightweaving and Soulcasting together is part of the process Lightweaver shardplate is made, so I think this could work, especially if Lightweavers are a match to the Midnight Mother and her Midnight Essences, but I suspect that if it is the case then Lightweaver simulations are probably vulnerable to some type of disruption to prevent them from being an entire army by themselves.

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26 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

"Please state the nature of the Soulcasting emergency."

I personally think that using Lightweaving and Soulcasting together is part of the process Lightweaver shardplate is made, so I think this could work, especially if Lightweavers are a match to the Midnight Mother and her Midnight Essences, but I suspect that if it is the case then Lightweaver simulations are probably vulnerable to some type of disruption to prevent them from being an entire army by themselves.

I think your right . Kind of like how vampires could be taken out by a wooden stake , it’s easy enough that anyone can get it . My best guess would be one of the essences . Do you remember in shadesmar what the Fused did ? He cut his hand and threw blood at her illusions . Blood is one of the essences and common enough since everyone has it . Otherwise like you said an extremely skilled lightweaver could be overpowering if he or she could make solid illusions .

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Soulcasting  is all about convincing an object that it wants to be another object. I don’t think light is an object, but I wouldn’t put it past Navani to create some sort of automaton that feeds off stormlight that you can put a disguise over, essentially making a person through lightweaving. 

Edited by Koloss17
Accidentally said lightweaving
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4 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Shallan is not very good at soulcasting but I bet the Herald that was a lightweaver is . 

Ash.

43 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Lightweaving is all about convincing an object that it wants to be another object. I don’t think light is an object, but I wouldn’t put it past Navani to create some sort of automaton that feeds off stormlight that you can put a disguise over, essentially making a person through lightweaving. 

Well, Shallan did that with a gemstone. Not quite a fabrial, but basically a half-fabrial (like the half shards)

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44 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Lightweaving is all about convincing an object that it wants to be another object. I don’t think light is an object, but I wouldn’t put it past Navani to create some sort of automaton that feeds off stormlight that you can put a disguise over, essentially making a person through lightweaving. 

I think you mean Soulcasting, but yes, I think the two together can be used to make something which is solid - after all, the cognitive realm is made of perception, so an illusion possibly would develop a degree of a presence there. The two combined together is to make the "lie" of the illusion into something real, which is what Lightweavers are all about.

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Shallan was indeed making solid illusions at the end of OB, and this WOB seems to confirm it as a Resonance of the Order, and one fo the more straightforward examples.    

 

 

Quote

 

Overlord Jebus

The Knights Radiants have access to two Surges each, are the two Surges completely seperate or can they be combined together? Something like maybe allowing a Lightweaver to create a solid illusion by combining their Illumination Surge and their Soulcasting?

Essentially, do each of the Orders have a special talent only they can do that isn't available to any other Order?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they do, but it's not always directly obvious in a straightforward way, such as your example.

Overlord Jebus

Would the lashing system be an example of this? Full lashings apppear to be mostly Adhesion and and the basic lashing seems to be mostly Gravitational, does this mean Bondsmiths will be able do full lashings and Skybreakers can use partial and basic lashings?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 4, 2015)

 

3 hours ago, Ixthos said:

I personally think that using Lightweaving and Soulcasting together is part of the process Lightweaver shardplate is made, so I think this could work, especially if Lightweavers are a match to the Midnight Mother and her Midnight Essences, but I suspect that if it is the case then Lightweaver simulations are probably vulnerable to some type of disruption to prevent them from being an entire army by themselves.

That would imply that each order has a completely different process for creating Plate.  How would that work?
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3 hours ago, Ixthos said:

The problem I have with this theory is that there's no proof supporting it. In that post, you talk about two things - Radiant having a shardplate, and the lesser spren that are attracted to radiants. The first point, imo, is moot because we have no proof that her shardplate was anything more than an illusion. The second point is true, but I see no reason that they would require surges to form the plate. There is also the fact that all plate looks and acts pretty much the same - that wouldn't be the case if different surges were used to create each plate. Essentially, all your theory does is take a relativley simple theory and make it more complex. In most cases, the simple answer is the correct one.

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52 minutes ago, Gderu said:

The problem I have with this theory is that there's no proof supporting it. In that post, you talk about two things - Radiant having a shardplate, and the lesser spren that are attracted to radiants. The first point, imo, is moot because we have no proof that her shardplate was anything more than an illusion. The second point is true, but I see no reason that they would require surges to form the plate. There is also the fact that all plate looks and acts pretty much the same - that wouldn't be the case if different surges were used to create each plate. Essentially, all your theory does is take a relativley simple theory and make it more complex. In most cases, the simple answer is the correct one.

Perhaps it would be best to discuss that on that thread, rather than on this one - let us not derail the topic. If I recall correctly, the plate Shallan was wearing seemed to be somewhat solid, and each order having access to their own method of making plate could help keep the orders diverse. Nevertheless it is only a theory, and while it is true that the simple answer usually is correct that is dependent on the evidence available. If you are in your car and the windscreen is wet, it probably is because its raining. Unless you see fish swim past, then you probably are underwater. This isn't a theory about how the world works, but about what would make an interesting story, and I think the surges, lesser spren, and possibly the support orders all working together would make the idea of each order gaining shardplate in a different way more interesting, and can also allow Brandon to remain closed lipped more easily because he can't talk say how plate is produced because it is unique to each order.

 

14 minutes ago, RShara said:

Mmmm illusions with some slight resistance to them is very far from illusions that are solid.

How much resistance would be needed for the illusion to count as solid?

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Just now, RShara said:

The same as IRL. Would you count water as a solid?

... Hang on, are you comparing solid material to water, or illusions to water? As in, if illusions had the same properties as water, and you could float something in it, would you count that as solid? Or rather that even though the illusion has resistance it still isn't as real as water? Basically, do you mean solid as in real or solid as in immovable?

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I'm thinking solid as in, gas, liquid and solid. If we're talking, they have some resistance to them, then that'd be a different matter. I guess I'm confused as to the terminology you're using? IIRC, Jasnah said the illusions seemed to have some mass/resistance to them, not that they were solid.

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4 minutes ago, RShara said:

I'm thinking solid as in, gas, liquid and solid. If we're talking, they have some resistance to them, then that'd be a different matter. I guess I'm confused as to the terminology you're using? IIRC, Jasnah said the illusions seemed to have some mass/resistance to them, not that they were solid.

I guess the key question in the thread then is, if you can make a sword and the illusion of someone to wield that sword, and that sword has the power to cut through real matter - after all, a sword is functionally a wedge, and a wedge works by forcing apart two sides of an object as it is pushed deeper into them, so it is all about force - due to being able to convey a force, is that illusion real? If you can make an illusionary table, and that table can hold the weight of a cup, is it real?

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42 minutes ago, RShara said:

Mmmm illusions with some slight resistance to them is very far from illusions that are solid.

I agree . The illusions she had produced were solid enough that when the enraged struck them instead of passing thru , it allowed the enthralled and enraged enemy to overlook the fact that they were illusions . 
       I think this is foreshadowing . Maybe later Shallan will achieve this . Or perhaps another Lightweaver will make filly hard and tactile illusions by blending the surges . This probably something he is saving if this theory is correct . Why . Because you can actually kill with an illusion is OP as hell . 

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Jasnah noticed there was resistance in the illusions. Initially she assumed it was Shallan combining transformation and illumination, but then theorized that perhaps the stormlight just provided some resistance. This for me could mean one of three things (numbering just for my own organizational sense)

 

1. Jasnah knows Lightweavers can combine the surges to make solid illusions, and assumed that was what Shallan did, but realized she did not, and was not capable of it yet

2. Jasnah theorized that since the illusions had some resistance, that Shallan was combining transformation and illumination, but realized she was in error, and that it is due to stormlight, and lightweavers cannot make solid illusions at all

3. Jasnah theorized that since the illusions had some resistance, that Shallan was combining transformation and illumination, but realized she was in error, and that it is due to stormlight, but we can later find out lightweavers can in fact make solid illusions. 

 

Personally I lean towards number 1 but I believe the jury is still out. Though we do know lightweavers could potentially make lasers, so although not analoguous, I think if they were capable of that, I would imagine they could be capable of more. 

Now what I write is assuming number 1 is correct (which I know we do not know, but I like to throw ideas around). If lightweavers can make solid illusions (which I think they can), then I think the creative artists that make up the order could result in something very similar to the Nightmother. Acting as the "summoners" of the knights radiant. I think it would be really cool for a lightweaver to create a solid illusion of a chasmfiend to fight with a thunderclast. But perhaps that is wishful thinking. 

 

edit: I am pulling up the scene now, seems Shallan was the one that assumed she was combining the surges. One moment please

Edited by Pathfinder
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Just now, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I agree . The illusions she had produced were solid enough that when the enraged struck them instead of passing thru , it allowed the enthralled and enraged enemy to overlook the fact that they were illusions . 
       I think this is foreshadowing . Maybe later Shallan will achieve this . Or perhaps another Lightweaver will make filly hard and tactile illusions by blending the surges . This probably something he is saving if this theory is correct . Why . Because you can actually kill with an illusion is OP as hell . 

I'm sorry, but that's not what happened. They did pass through the illusions.

Quote

The Fused turned from Shallan and continued a conversation in a language Adolin couldn’t understand. One pointed at each illusion in turn, then thrust with his spear. The other shook her head, and Adolin could almost interpret her answer. We tried stabbing each one. They keep mixing about, so it’s hard to keep track.

Instead, the female took out a knife and cut her hand, then flung it toward the illusions. Orange blood fell through the illusions, leaving no stain, but splattered against Adolin’s cheek. Adolin felt his heart flutter, and he tried to covertly wipe the blood off, but the female gestured toward him with a satisfied grin. The male saluted her with a finger to his head, then lowered his lance and flew straight toward Adolin.

Damnation.

Adolin scrambled away, passing through an illusion of Captain Notum and causing it to diffuse. It formed back together, then blew apart a second later as the Fused soared through it, lance pointed at Adolin’s back.

Quote

The enemy swooped down low across the battlefield, and Szeth followed, a mere inch above the rocks. They soon passed among the fighting illusions. Some of these appeared as enemy soldiers, to further add confusion. A clever move. The enemy would be less likely to retreat if they thought most of their companions were still fighting, and it made the battle look far more real. Except that when Szeth’s quarry zipped past, her fluttering robes struck and disturbed illusory shapes.

They resisted a little, but they weren't completely solid.

Quote

Odium had made a mistake in flooding these soldiers with such thirst for blood. They didn’t care that Shallan fed them illusions—they just wanted a battle. So she provided one, and somehow her illusions resisted when the enemy hit them. She thought maybe she was combining Soulcasting with her Lightweaving.

Quote

A Fused had begun gathering glowing-eyed soldiers who were real, then putting them with their backs to the city wall. They’d made ranks with spears bristling outward and yelled for soldiers to join them, but touched each one who approached. Illusions that tried to get in were disrupted. Soon the enemy would be able to ignore this distraction, regroup, and focus on getting through that wall.

 

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Here are the scenes where it comes up:

 

Oathbringer page 1159

Odium had made a mistake in flooding these soldiers with such thirst for blood. They didn't care that Shallan fed them illusions - they just wanted a battle. So she provided one, and somehow her illusions resisted when the enemy hit them. She thought maybe she was combining Soulcasting with her Lightweaving

 

Oathbringer page 1179

"It is well, Shallan" Jasnah said "I merely wanted to see, as it seemed you were Soulcasting to give your illusions weight. But then, concentrated Stormlight has a faint mass to it. Either way, up the steps, child"

 

(The first quote is from Shallan's perspective, and before she spoke with Jasnah. So it is her own impression and possible conclusion regarding the combination. The second quote is after Jasnah suggested Shallan soulcast some rubble away, and Shallan felt overwhelmed. So Jasnah is assuming Shallan is too inexperienced with soulcasting to have been using it to add substance to her illusions. Now whether that means it is something that is actually possible or not, I think remains to be seen, but personally I believe it is the case. That lightweavers can make solid illusions)

Edited by Pathfinder
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3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Here are the scenes where it comes up:

 

Oathbringer page 1159

Odium had made a mistake in flooding these soldiers with such thirst for blood. They didn't care that Shallan fed them illusions - they just wanted a battle. So she provided one, and somehow her illusions resisted when the enemy hit them. She thought maybe she was combining Soulcasting with her Lightweaving

 

Oathbringer page 1179

"It is well, Shallan" Jasnah said "I merely wanted to see, as it seemed you were Soulcasting to give your illusions weight. But then, concentrated Stormlight has a faint mass to it. Either way, up the steps, child"

 

(The first quote is from Shallan's perspective, and before she spoke with Jasnah. So it is her own impression and possible conclusion regarding the combination. The second quote is after Jasnah suggested Shallan soulcast some rubble away, and Shallan felt overwhelmed. So Jasnah is assuming Shallan is too inexperienced with soulcasting to have been using it to add substance to her illusions. Now whether that means it is something that is actually possible or not, I think remains to be seen, but personally I believe it is the case. That lightweavers can make solid illusions)

Semi-solid illusions, so what I'm thinking here.

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10 minutes ago, RShara said:

Semi-solid illusions, so what I'm thinking here.

Just in case to clarify, what I am saying is I think lightweavers can in fact make solid illusions. Just Shallan is not there yet, or is still having trouble with her personal problems. She admonishes herself for ignoring the transformation side of her order. I think this was the beginning of her manifesting it, but it not being strong enough yet because she needs more practice. She was unable to use sound originally, but lightweavers can use sound and eventually she learned how to. Originally she could only make un-moving illusions. then she could make them with moving parts. Then she could attach them. Then she could layer them. Then she learned she could use just a gemstone linked to it to get it to last far longer than ever before. So I think this is foreshadowing of her learning to make fully solid illusions. But I understand and respect that you think differently. 

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4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Just in case to clarify, what I am saying is I think lightweavers can in fact make solid illusions. Just Shallan is not there yet, or is still having trouble with her personal problems. She admonishes herself for ignoring the transformation side of her order. I think this was the beginning of her manifesting it, but it not being strong enough yet because she needs more practice. She was unable to use sound originally, but lightweavers can use sound and eventually she learned how to. Originally she could only make un-moving illusions. then she could make them with moving parts. Then she could attach them. Then she could layer them. Then she learned she could use just a gemstone linked to it to get it to last far longer than ever before. So I think this is foreshadowing of her learning to make fully solid illusions. But I understand and respect that you think differently. 

Oh sure. I never said she'd never be able to. I was saying she hadn't at the Battle. And I'm trying to clarify what's meant by solid.

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26 minutes ago, RShara said:

Oh sure. I never said she'd never be able to. I was saying she hadn't at the Battle. And I'm trying to clarify what's meant by solid.

Have you ever watched Star Trek next Generation . The Holodeck is exactly what I mean by solid illusions . There are Holograms made of condensed light . They can strike you , shoot you and even cut you in half . Depending on the Danger settings . 
        Translate that into A fully trained lightweaver with Thaylan city levels of stormlight . I’m thinking she possibly make illusions that can physically hurt you . Push you off a cliff . Block a sword , bludgeon you with a stick etc . I’m thinking she can use stormlight , soulcasting and lightweaving together and make a 3d hologram .

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1 hour ago, RShara said:

Oh sure. I never said she'd never be able to. I was saying she hadn't at the Battle. And I'm trying to clarify what's meant by solid.

No problem. Though follow up question, when it is mentioned in the book that Radiant is wearing garnet shardplate, and when Jasnah tries to grab Shallan, she goes poof, but Radiant is the real one. Do you believe the shardplate on Radiant is real or illusory?

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