Mushroom Catalog Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 We already know this does weird stuff, so yeah. I was more curious as to whether or not it would be possible leave the spike out to decay long enough to use the allomantic power. Because of exponential decay, it will never reach 0, but might there be a point where burning it gives you the allomantic power. Similarly, with Feruchemy, if you pull out the entire charge, will burning it give the allomantic power? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koloss17 Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 Depends on what you mean by allomantic power. If you are saying the power of something that was spiked, then probably not. If you are saying the power from the metal itself, yeah probably. It just depends how long it takes to decay. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 4 hours ago, Mushroom Catalog said: I was more curious as to whether or not it would be possible leave the spike out to decay long enough to use the allomantic power. Because of exponential decay, it will never reach 0, but might there be a point where burning it gives you the allomantic power. You could just do what Miles does and only pull use one power(we see him burn gold that he has previously put healing in). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) If a spike has decayed to the point of maximum loss then you can probably burn the metal with at least reduced weirdness if not eliminated weirdness. Not that we know what burning a spike does right now, except that burning one that's in you is really not advised. You can burn a metalmind that's been completely drained with utterly no consequences since at that point there's no extra Investiture to do screwy things. Of course, burning a metalmind is generally not going to be a problem even if it's filled; if you filled it then you're compounding and that's generally a Good Thing (as long as you have another metalmind or can use all that released power immediately) and if someone else filled it you can just burn it like any other bit of metal with no ill effects. We saw Vin do that in The Final Empire with some metal that Sazed gave a slight charge to. She could sense the charge but couldn't do anything with it and the metal functioned normally for her when burned. Edited January 22, 2020 by Weltall 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushroom Catalog Posted January 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 18 hours ago, Karger said: You could just do what Miles does and only pull use one power(we see him burn gold that he has previously put healing in). I guess I need a reread of era 2 So, when burning a metal with a feruchemical charge that you stored, can you choose which power you want to get? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Mushroom Catalog said: So, when burning a metal with a feruchemical charge that you stored, can you choose which power you want to get? No, the Feruchemical energy overwrites the allomantic one, allowing you to take feruchemical power from Preservation (spoilered for length): Spoiler Lyndsey Luther Ok, last question. It was really difficult coming up with three questions that haven’t been asked already... Brandon Sanderson OK... you’re not going to ask me the “what would you ask me” question? Lyndsey Luther Not quite... Brandon Sanderson OK good, because I hate that one! (laughs) Lyndsey Luther My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about? Brandon Sanderson Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between AonDor [the magic system from Elantris] and Allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system]. People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, Compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense. Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with Feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a Feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the Feruchemical charge overwrites the Allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel Feruchemy with Allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels Allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an Allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of Feruchemical power. That’s why Compounding is so powerful. Edited January 22, 2020 by Llstml 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushroom Catalog Posted January 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Llstml said: No, the Feruchemical energy overwrites the allomantic one, allowing you to take feruchemical power from Preservation (spoilered for length): Ok that makes more sense with what I thought happened. If you filled it, then tapped it to empty, then would it not give any feruchemical power? Would it give the allomantic power? Does the amount of feruchemical charge in the metalmind affect how much feruchemical power you get out? I think I read somewhere that it's 10 times what you put in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koloss17 Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 5 minutes ago, Mushroom Catalog said: I think I read somewhere that it's 10 times what you put in. I believe that was more of an expression, not an actual amountage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 17 minutes ago, Llstml said: No, the Feruchemical energy overwrites the allomantic one, allowing you to take feruchemical power from Preservation (spoilered for length): Quote Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 3, 2015) #40 Share Copy djscrub Since burning Feruchemically charged metal seems to require a choice between getting the Allomantic or Feruchemical property (e.g., Miles only sees gold ghosts when he wants to, not as a side effect of compounded healing), is there any special advantage to compounding pewter and tin, where the Allomantic and Feruchemical use is the same? Is their compounding even stronger than normal compounding because you can tap both power sources simultaneously, or maybe because Preservation is particularly attuned to providing those powers through those metals? Brandon Sanderson Remember that compounding is a "hack" of the magic. You're looking to fool the magics, and use one to power the other. The value in it is that you can use Allomantic power to fuel Feruchemy. It's like hooking a power cord up to a device that, up to that point, you'd powered by using a hand crank. # 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted January 23, 2020 Report Share Posted January 23, 2020 @Karger Brandon doesn't confirm that, and I believe that he has misled questioners before, so that is only the questioners opinion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 23, 2020 Report Share Posted January 23, 2020 20 minutes ago, Llstml said: Brandon doesn't confirm that, and I believe that he has misled questioners before, so that is only the questioners opinion. It was my understanding of the referenced scene as well. I am also unsure of the date of the given WoB and it is not realy explicit in terms of showing the point you are trying to make. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushroom Catalog Posted January 23, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, Karger said: It was my understanding of the referenced scene as well. I am also unsure of the date of the given WoB and it is not realy explicit in terms of showing the point you are trying to make. I think that a person does not get to choose what will happen and that a metalmind with power will always give the Feruchemical power and an empty metalmind will give the allomantic, which I am basing on how I think allomancy works. The allomancer has a special connection to the metal (this is what makes them an allomancer), and the metal has a connection to Preservation. When the allomancer "burns" the metal, it pulls power from Preservation, into the metal, and into the person. This vaporizes the metal in the process, which is why they have a limited amount of power from the metal. Similarly, Feruchemists have a different unique connection to the metal (which makes them a Feruchemist). This allows them to store and tap metalminds. Preservation has one connection to the metal. It's connection to the metal does not change, whether or not the person is a Feruchemist or Allomancer. Fullborn and twinborn have both unique connections. When they burn the metal, the power from Preservation will take the path of least resistance. (As things do.) Normally, the allomantic line is the path of least resistance. When the metalmind is empty, burning it will give the allomantic power. The power flows from Preservation, is "keyed" by the connection between the allomancer and metal, and gives the allomantic power. However, when the metalmind is filled, even a bit, the Feruchemical line becomes the path of least resistance, due to power already pushing at it. This is because of equilibrium. When the Investiture in the metal mind is higher than the Investiture in the person, it will be pushing into the person. However, unless they are tapping, it will not be allowed to flow through. Because of this, when a metalmind is even a bit charged, it will become the path of least resistance for Investiture from Preservation. When the metal is burned, the power from Preservation flows through the one connection it has to the metal, then is "keyed" as it flows through the connection to the person. Depending on the path it takes, it will "key" different. This causes Allomantic powers vs Feruchemical powers. Edited January 23, 2020 by Mushroom Catalog Phrasing could have been bad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 23, 2020 Report Share Posted January 23, 2020 3 hours ago, Mushroom Catalog said: The allomancer has a special connection to the metal (this is what makes them an allomancer), and the metal has a connection to Preservation. Allomancers have more of Preservation's investiture which manifests through their capacity to preform alomancy. They have no specific connection to the metal this is just the"key" for alomantic power to come through into the physical realm. 3 hours ago, Mushroom Catalog said: it pulls power from Preservation, into the metal, and into the person Through the metal and the metal "dissolves" as a result. Otherwise you could keep using it indefinitely on the same chunk of metal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushroom Catalog Posted January 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, Karger said: Allomancers have more of Preservation's investiture which manifests through their capacity to preform alomancy. They have no specific connection to the metal this is just the"key" for alomantic power to come through into the physical realm Maybe, though it makes more sense to me you use the metal as a key to get to Preservation, and the power enters into you through the metal, through a connection. I suppose that connection doesn't need to be special. Anyway, On 1/21/2020 at 7:47 PM, Karger said: You could just do what Miles does and only pull use one power(we see him burn gold that he has previously put healing in). It doesn't specifically say he burned gold that had or has had healing in it. In fact, I think it implies the opposite. I just went and found the scene. Miles has just jumped off the balcony and watched the 2 allomancers come down after him. He walks around a bit, then considers, then it says that he burned gold and saw the visions. Presumably, he was already burning Feruchemical gold to heal from the fall. Along with that, Wax thinks a few times that he always has his compounding going. The fact that he had to separately burn gold either means that he has an empty metalmind or plain Allomantic gold. Him burning it separately to get Allomantic gold shows that he wasn't burning the metal minds he was using for compounding. Unless Miles was tapping Feruchemical gold for some reason (he probably just burns his Feruchemical gold - more efficient that way) it stands to reason that he was actually burning unfilled gold that he just has in his stomach. So this doesn't really show whether or not having had Feruchemical power in it changes a metalmind in ways that affect Allomancy. At the least, it isn't changing the molecules. WoB: Spoiler Steeldancer When a Feruchemist stores their charge in a metal, where is that going? Is that going into molecules, is that going into the Spiritual essence of the metal, is that sort of a Cognitive - what is that? Brandon Sanderson It is charging it in...in cosmere terms, more on the Spiritual level, but there are connections to the Physical as well. It's not 100% on the Spiritual. Steeldancer It's not changing the molecular structure? Brandon Sanderson It is not going to change the molecular structure. If you brought that metal to Earth, somehow, and tested it, you wouldn't be able to tell any difference. Because we just don't have that element. Steeldancer You can't test for Investiture on Earth Brandon Sanderson Yeah. In the cosmere, you can. Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018) I think that for now, the best way to do this is just ask Brandon if a metalmind that has been emptied and then burned will give Allomantic power or Feruchemical. Unless you can think of more stuff that prove one or the other. Nothing comes to mind for me. Edited January 24, 2020 by Mushroom Catalog clarify 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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