Avatars: What and Who

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Patji wrote an Oathbringer letter. He has definitely displayed personality.

What do you mean by "the things the mist pays attention to"?

The Mists do not seem to act according to weather patterns and they tend to stick close to fights and parties. 

[Pagerunner]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

The Mists do not seem to act according to weather patterns and they tend to stick close to fights and parties. 

The first was true even in Era 1, and I'm not seeing any element of personality there. For the second, why do you have that impression? Can you provide any passages where that is called out in Era 2?

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

The first was true even in Era 1

Not true.  The mists respond to rain.

2 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

For the second, why do you have that impression? Can you provide any passages where that is called out in Era 2?

Can you provide any example of mist that does not come from one of those two things? 

[Pagerunner]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Not true.  The mists respond to rain.

But they are still not not normal weather patterns in Era 1. WoA Chapter 1. "The mists continued to spin. They were thick and mysterious, even to Vin. More dense than a simple fog and more constant than any normal weather pattern, they churned and flowed, making rivulets around her."

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Can you provide any example of mist that does not come from one of those two things? 

What? You made an assertion on the behavior of the mists. If I'm following the conversation correctly, you're suggesting that the mists in Era 2 are more attracted to fights and to parties than they were in Era 1 because they absorbed part of Vin's personality. That's a statement that requires evidence.

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

What? You made an assertion on the behavior of the mists. If I'm following the conversation correctly, you're suggesting that the mists in Era 2 are more attracted to fights and to parties than they were in Era 1 because they absorbed part of Vin's personality. That's a statement that requires evidence.

My thought was that we notice mist and places where thieves gather, where Wax fights Miles, outside the party that Wax leaves.  The Mists are not consistently out at nights during era 2.  Remember Wayne's Alloy of Law comment"the mists are out tonight."  During era 1 they where there full time.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Karger

[Honorless]

I think the Mists are under conscious control of Harmony. They don't behave like a mindless natural phenomenon, they aren't a natural phenomenon. They were sent by Preservation before and now they're sent by Harmony.

The Mist Spirit is gone and there don't seem to be any Splinter entity on Scadrial (barring possibly Trell) 

[Pagerunner]

On 1/25/2020 at 8:35 PM, Karger said:

My thought was that we notice mist and places where thieves gather, where Wax fights Miles, outside the party that Wax leaves.  The Mists are not consistently out at nights during era 2.  Remember Wayne's Alloy of Law comment"the mists are out tonight."  During era 1 they where there full time.

The books are action books - basically every scene is either a fight, a party, or related to one of the two. It's still a long jump to describing the mists' behavior that way.

But anyways, Brandon has said that Sazed is the one who sends the mists (emphasis mine):

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventeen

The Mists Form

In writing this book, I had to nail down a few worldbuilding issues I'd been contemplating even before the first trilogy ended. What would happen to the mists, for instance, once Sazed took over and became Harmony?

The mists, obviously, are a big part of the series. It didn't make sense—either narratively or worldbuilding-wise—to lose them completely. However, they'd been created as an effect of Preservation trying to use his essence to fight against Ruin's destruction of the world. So . . . wouldn't they go away?

I decided that Sazed would still send them. They're part of the nature of the world now. To acknowledge what had happened, they wouldn't come every night any longer. But they would come. They were changed in that they are no longer simply the raw power of Preservation; they're now a part of Harmony—so they no longer pull away from Hemalurgy in the same way as they used to. They still have the odd effect of being able to power Allomancy. (And Feruchemy as well—if one knows how to do it.)

The mists are, in part, the raw power of creation. And when one is favored of Harmony, the mists have a greater effect than they might otherwise have. We'll see more of this later.

The Alloy of Law Annotations (Nov. 30, 2015)

 

[Pagerunner]

The latest Stormlight Four reading contains a bit of info to the Nightwatcher's nature:

Quote

“I have met the Nightwatcher,” Wyndle said. “She does not think the same way the rest of us do. Cultivation created her to be apart, to be separate from mankind, unconnected. She wanted to create a daughter whose shape and personality would not be influenced by the perceptions of humans. This makes the Nightwatcher less... well, human than a spren like myself. Still, I don’t believe her capable of lying. It isn’t something she could conceive of, I believe.”

We learn she's fundamentally different from the other spren with regards to her personality, having been actively shaped by a Shard. This reminds me of the Obrodai avatar, the one who was instilled with a dislike of Hoid after being intentionally created by Autonomy.

I do see a bit of conflict with the Cognitive Shadow aspect I had been developing. If the Nightwatcher had started out as a human and been turned into an avatar, that would seem to run counter to keeping her "separate from mankind." Maybe using an existing personality, copied over from a dead person, makes it easier to create an avatar; but you don't have to use one, as long as you're content taking a long time constructing an entire personality from scratch.

[Friendshipspren]

I think this scenario is more likely. Now we know that bavadin has multiple personalities right.

Have u seen the movie Split where one guy has 23 different personalities which have a agreement to gain complete control over the shared body for limited and equal amounts of time.

So could it be that before the Shattering good hated bavadin but  liked a few of    her other personalities like Patji and atleast one more.

Maybe they were even friends. But since then it has been a long time and they have drifted apart. Or maybe the Shardic intent was pressing on patji making him incapable of allying with hoid . 

Then new personalities might have spawned as well. 

So I don't think the avatars were ever physically or even spiritually independent from bavadin .

Only cognitively and that too to a Limited degree.

 

[Argent]

Moved to the RoW forum and unlocked at @Pagerunner's request - I imagine this will be seeing some updates in the near future

[Pagerunner]

Not a ton to add, but we did recently get a new WoB that lines up pretty well with what I've been saying about avatars as a manifestation of a Shard:

Quote

Alex M

What's the difference between Avatar and Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

These are all very weird terms that I'm just using.

*mistakenly answering for sliver* A sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing.

An avatar is... a shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a shard, or a lower case "g" god in the Cosmere, can do.

Brandon Sanderson

*realizes that he answered for sliver earlier, and clarifies*

A splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions  - an actual piece of it [the shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self identity of the shard, then it is called a splinter.

YouTube Livestream 32 (June 3, 2021)

 

And we also got a little bit more about the Nightwatcher in Rhythm of War, about how she was created specifically by Cultivation differently than spren are created, and she had her personality specifically guided and influenced:

Quote

"I have met the Nightwatcher," Wyndle said. "She does not ... think the same way the rest of us do. Cultivation created her to be apart, separated from humankind, un-Connected. Mortal perception of the NIghtwatcher does not influence her like it does other spren. Mother wanted a daughter whose shape and personality would grow organically."

 

So I haven't seen anything in recent revelations to contradict my theories. Cultivation made Nightwatcher with a specific persona in mind; for many other avatars, the Shard could use a cheat-sheat of an existing individual like Patji or Trell.

[Mistcloak]

On 1/19/2020 at 2:10 PM, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

If the mists were an avatar of Harmony made out of Vin it could lead to some great interactions. Particularly between her and Wax as I don't think they'd get along. 

But Wax always heals faster and feels better when he is in the mists

[Bejarden]

7 minutes ago, Mistcloak said:

But Wax always heals faster and feels better when he is in the mists

Source?

[Mistcloak]

5 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Source?

In the Alloy of Law, Wax “embraces” the mists multiple times and also misses them   a lot and I’m pretty sure he healed a little faster after a fight once but I can’t think of where off the top of my head

[Bejarden]

Just now, Mistcloak said:

In the Alloy of Law, Wax “embraces” the mists multiple times and also misses them   a lot and I’m pretty sure he healed a little faster after a fight once but I can’t think of where off the top of my head

Yah if you or anyone else can get me the quote that be great

Embrace is just the term Brandon likes to use when a Allomancer is doing Allomancy things

[Mistcloak]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Yah if you or anyone else can get me the quote that be great

Embrace is just the term Brandon likes to use when a Allomancer is doing Allomancy things

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventeen

The Mists Form

In writing this book, I had to nail down a few worldbuilding issues I'd been contemplating even before the first trilogy ended. What would happen to the mists, for instance, once Sazed took over and became Harmony?

The mists, obviously, are a big part of the series. It didn't make sense—either narratively or worldbuilding-wise—to lose them completely. However, they'd been created as an effect of Preservation trying to use his essence to fight against Ruin's destruction of the world. So . . . wouldn't they go away?

I decided that Sazed would still send them. They're part of the nature of the world now. To acknowledge what had happened, they wouldn't come every night any longer. But they would come. They were changed in that they are no longer simply the raw power of Preservation; they're now a part of Harmony—so they no longer pull away from Hemalurgy in the same way as they used to. They still have the odd effect of being able to power Allomancy. (And Feruchemy as well—if one knows how to do it.)

The mists are, in part, the raw power of creation. And when one is favored of Harmony, the mists have a greater effect than they might otherwise have. We'll see more of this later.

They still have the odd effect of being able to power Allomancy. Also I think Wax uses  the mists at the end of book 1

[Jondesu]

On 1/18/2020 at 3:07 PM, Pagerunner said:

The Sibling

And logic follows that the third Bondsmith spren would also be an avatar. But if an avatar is a manifestation of a Shard… then which Shard? Honor and Cultivation already have their big avatars, Odium has his smaller avatars. I don’t think that we can have an avatar of multiple Shards simultaneously – these are manifestations of the Shard, not an external Splinter like the spren. Maybe Honor or Cultivation has two? Maybe Re-shephir isn’t the first Unmade to switch sides (the mysterious Tenth Unmade that got hinted at in epigraphs)? Maybe there’s an off-world Shard that was like, “Sure, I’ll drop an avatar,” and we’ll get a Letter from that Shard in one of the next two books saying “I already gave you an avatar to help, how’d that turn out for you?”

For the physical manifestation, I’m leaning towards the gemstone pillar as being the Sibling’s manifestation. It’s slumbering, so the gemstones are off.

I’m aware that this was posted before RoW was out, so understand this isn’t criticism, just updating now that I’ve seen this and read RoW.

We now know that not only is the Sibling of both Honor and Cultivation, but creates it own Light (Towerlight) that is a mix of both Stormlight and Cultivation’s Light (Lifelight?, or is that yet another something?). I theorize that you were both right and wrong: the Sibling is an Avatar, but one created of two Shards, and probably intentionally (or should I say with Intent). They saw the creation of the Knights Radiant or of the Heralds (whenever Urithiru was created, I’m not certain on that timeline) and felt it was a momentous occasion that needed their love for each other to be shown off in a major way, just like sometimes humans will have a child because they want something of a culmination of their love. They worked together perhaps with the aid of a Bondsmith to create the Sibling by combining their Investiture along with a Spren or human/singer mind to be the basis of the Avatar that is now known as the Sibling.

[Honorless]

So, it's not about how they're created but whether they're autonomous or not. That makes a lot of sense with the names "Avatar" and "Splinter".

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, Honorless said:

So, it's not about how they're created but whether they're autonomous or not. That makes a lot of sense with the names "Avatar" and "Splinter".

Well how they are created probably has a lot if not all to do with it, it is defined ironically by autonomy.

Lower case a there