Pagerunner Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) In Oathbringer, we learned about a new Realmatic concept called “avatars.” We don’t have a lot to go on, but I think there is a little we can piece together about them. I’ll begin with laying out all the sources we have on the subject, and follow with in-depth analyses of confirmed and speculated avatars to see what we can figure out. Unfortunately, won’t be able to skim the section headings and skip ahead; I’m going to be building concepts throughout the entire treatise. Stuff I casually assert in later headings, I spend a lot of time defining and defending in earlier ones. So you’ll need to read the whole thing top-down without skipping. Sources The first we learned about them was in Oathbringer, published on November 14, 2017, in a selection of the epigraphs forming a letter written to Hoid. Quote Cephandrius, bearer of the First Gem, You must know better than to approach us by relying upon presumption of past relationship. You have spoken to one who cannot respond. We, instead, will take your communication to us--though we know not how you located us upon this world. We are indeed intrigued, for we thought it well hidden. Insignificant among our many realms. ... As the waves of the sea must continue to surge, so must our will continue resolute. Alone. Did you expect anything else from us? We need not suffer the interference of another. Rayse is contained, and we care not for his prison. Indeed, we admire his initiative. Perhaps if you had approached the correct one of us with your plea, it would have found favorable audience. But we stand in the sea, pleased with our domains. Leave us alone. We also instruct that you should not return to Obrodai. We have claimed that world, and a new avatar of our being is beginning to manifest there. She is young yet, and--as a precaution--she has been instilled with an intense and overpowering dislike of you. This is all we will say at this time. If you wish more, seek these waters in person and overcome the tests we have created. Only in this will you earn our respect. And here’s a list of WoBs, numbered for easy reference. WoB 1. November 28th, 2017. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8606 Quote Brandon Sanderson Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium. Aurimus Is that one of the Aviar? Brandon Sanderson No, Patji is the island. Overlord Jebus Island or islands? Brandon Sanderson The island but Patji is one of the islands. Yurisses It's a Shard?! Brandon Sanderson Yes, big asterisk! But yes. Aurimus Shard as in equal or Shard as in a mass of Investiture? Brandon Sanderson As in one of the 16 Shards of Adonalsium is represented and involved in First of the Sun. In fact, one of the letters references First of the Sun in this *Indicates Oathbringer* WoB 2. December 16, 2017. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/314/#e9082 Quote Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Any Shard can make aspects [avatars]. WoB 3. Relevant excerpts from a much larger conversation. March 18, 2018. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e9385 Quote Brandon Sanderson … The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.) … I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island. … When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple. Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though. WoB 4. October 26, 2019. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13220 Quote Oversleep Okay now I have one about Shard avatars, like Autonomy's. Is it possible for one to form without the Shard's Vessel directly making it, so independent... Brandon Sanderson Yes, it is. They would be aware of it, however. They couldn't not be aware of it, but it could arise without their direct and conscious decision to do so. Oversleep And the one on First of the Sun, is it by Autonomy's direct... Brandon Sanderson Yes, that is directly created. WoB 5. November 26, 2019 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13323 Quote Questioner So Bavadin's avatar *inaudible*. Brandon Sanderson One of Bavadin's avatars. Questioner Of those avatars, are some or all of them actual Splinters of Autonomy? Brandon Sanderson The terminology gets kind of sticky here. In Cosmere terms, some would say that counts as Splinters, some would say not. The avatars aren't necessarily aware but Bavadin always is. A lot of people in Cosmere would call that a Splinter. Questioner My follow up to that would be, is it possible for a person to Ascend and become a Vessel of one of those Splinters? Brandon Sanderson That is plausible. Yes. It could happen. It would be tough because they will have personalities of their own and so something would need to happen. WoB 6. Nov 26, 2019 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13339 Quote Pod The combination of a Shard and its Vessel leads to sapient mind with access to a virtually infinite pool of Investiture. Are avatars the product of a similar combination of a mind and a pool of Investiture, only on a smaller scale, with less power? Brandon Sanderson I would say that is an accurate representation of what an avatar is. It’s not the only way, but it is an accurate... some avatars are that. I would say that’s the standard. Lastly, before I get started on my conclusions, I want to present some Wikipedia quotations about the religious doctrine of avatars. Between things like forum avatars, the Last Airbender TV show, and the James Cameron movie, the word itself is fairly common, but our usage has drifted away from the theological definition, the original Hindu concepts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar Quote An avatar (Sanskrit: अवतार, IAST: avatāra), a concept in Hinduism that means "descent", is the material appearance or incarnation of a deity on earth.[1][2] The relative verb to "alight, to make one's appearance" is sometimes used to refer to any guru or revered human being.[3][4] … The manifest embodiment is sometimes referred to as an incarnation.[28] The translation of avatar as "incarnation" has been questioned by Christian theologians, who state that an incarnation is in flesh and imperfect, while avatar is mythical and perfect.[29][30] The theological concept of Christ as an incarnation, as found in Christology, presents the Christian concept of incarnation. According to Oduyoye and Vroom, this is different from the Hindu concept of avatar because avatars in Hinduism are unreal and is similar to Docetism.[31] Sheth disagrees and states that this claim is an incorrect understanding of the Hindu concept of avatar.[32][note 1] Avatars are true embodiments of spiritual perfection, one driven by noble goals, in Hindu traditions such as Vaishnavism.[32] The big takeaway for me here is that the avatar is the opposite of something like the cosmere’s Ascension. It’s not a mortal attaining to something greater; it’s something greater manifesting in a limited, relatable fashion. Patji Let’s dive into specifics. We have two confirmed avatars; Patji on First of the Sun, and an unnamed female on Obrodai. We obviously don’t know much about the latter, but we’ve been given a few additional tantalizing clues about Patji in the WoBs I’ve shared above. But before discussing WoBs, I’ve got a few novel interpretations of the Oathbringer letter. You may have noticed that I split it into two sections. There’s no indication in the epigraphs themselves of this, but something has seemed off about this response ever since the first time I read it, and this split into an initial response and a later response was the only way I could finally get everything to click. There’s the question of authorship. There’s a presumption of “past relationship,” which, in my mind, immediately indicated a Vessel from Yolen. There’s also the line about Hoid having written to “one who cannot respond,” on the “insignificant” world of First of the Sun, as if Hoid wrote a letter addressed to Patji, but another, the Vessel Bavadin herself, is writing the response. But that never sat quite right with me. In Way of Kings, Hoid admits to having a grudge against Bavadin, one that guides his actions. “You have accused me of arrogance in my quest. You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin. Both accusations are true.” So why is he relying on past relationship with Bavadin to convince her to help? Seems the past relationship would hurt his chances. And why are there oceanic metaphors throughout the epigraphs if the letter isn’t actually from Patji, the avatar on the ocean planet? And though we don’t have Hoid’s letter, I also couldn’t help but wonder, who had he actually addressed it to? Was it Bavadin (the past relationship), or Patji (the one who couldn’t respond)? These questions led me to develop an alternate interpretation: Hoid wrote the letter to Patji, with no intention of Bavadin receiving it at all. The “past relationship” indicates that Hoid knew Patji. The “one who cannot respond” epigraph isn’t saying that Patji is literally incapable of communicating; it’s Patji saying “I gotta ask my manager.” He does so, and then Bavadin says “box that fool out,” and then he writes the second portion of the letter with the denial. Approaching another one of Autonomy’s avatars may have been more successful, one more willing to say “Thumbs up, let’s do this!” without checking in with Bavadin. So, Patji was someone that Hoid knew before he became the avatar on First of the Sun. (Hoid couldn’t have met him on FotS; otherwise, Patji wouldn’t have been surprised he’d been found.” This meshes with one of Brandon’s phrases from WoB 3: “I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.” There was a man named Patji, and something happened to him (something intentionally done by Autonomy, as we know per WoB 4, so something that occurred after the Shattering), and then we wound up with the island of Patji (which is the avatar). This leads me to believe that an avatar is a combination of two things. There is a Physicalmanifestation of Shardic power (something specific, like an island or an individual) using Cognitive residue from a deceased individual. A Mind Golem, of sorts. There are plenty of concepts, both in-Cosmere and otherwise, of something inhabiting a dead person’s body. Like a Lifeless. I think an avatar uses a dead person’s mind to guide its personality as it is created. This is somewhat discussed in WoB 5, about how it’s difficult to Ascend to an avatar because it already has a personality. It doesn’t already have a Vessel; the Investiture manifestation itself has an inherent personality, sort of like a spren. But it needs a real person for its formation; it’s not a personality that spontaneously manifests. So there was a real person named Patji who knew Hoid, and later died on First of the Sun and was made into an Avatar by Autonomy. Anything beyond that would be out of the realm of theorization and into speculation, but I’ll throw two possibilities out. First, he could have been a Yolish individual (he does use Rayse’s name) who could have died conveniently on First of the Sun or been sent there directly by Bavadin. Second, he could have been a Taldain native (like Trell, who’s next up) who was sent out by Bavadin, and Hoid met him either on Taldain or very early on in Patji’s worldhopping career. Trell Trell, from Mistborn, is widely considered to be an Avatar of Autonomy, in large part because of the presence of an individual named Trell in White Sand, the chronologically earliest post-Shattering story, and Autonomy’s “interference with other planets” mentioned in Khriss’s Taldain Essay. And these two clues could fit with the same vein as Patji: Trell was a dude on Taldain, Bavadin recruited him to go off-world and die, but in dying he lent his mind to the creation of an avatar. If he is indeed an avatar, I’m not quite sure how Trell manifests. (Remember, according to the Wikipedia quotes listed above, an avatar makes a “material appearance,” so not just chilling in the Spiritual Realm like a mini-Shard.) Patji manifests as an island. We do have the Thousand Eyes of Trell. And Harmony’s portrayal of him as a red mist. And the red stars forming The Scar in the constellation chart. So maybe Trell literally manifests in stars? But he appears to be Investing on Scadrial specifically, as evidenced by the function of his god metal in Hemalurgy, so I’d expect him to have a manifestation specific to Scadrial. I’m gonna hold off on trying to conclude anything about Trell until Wax and Wayne are finished, at least. [This comment has been removed.] Stormfather Now I’m gonna go a little deeper in the murky depths of theorization. The Stormfather has always been an odd cookie; is he a Sliver, is a Splinter, is he a Cognitive Shadow? He’s referred to himself as some variation of all three. There have been a lot of WoBs on the subject ([A], [ B], [C], [D], [E], [F], [G], [H], [ I], in no particular order, and maybe with an accidental repeat in there). I think an avatar, especially an avatar created from the Cognitive Shadow of a Vessel, can classify as all three, so the lines of terminology get muddled, which causes a lot of this confusion. There are two key WoBs from that list that lead me to suspect the Stormfather is an avatar. First is that the Stormfather has “absorbed” something that made him basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow [ I]. Second, that the Stormfather was intentionally created by Honor [C]. So he’s a post-Shattering creation (even though the Highstorms themselves predate the Shattering [J]). This is what we see the Stormfather discuss in Oathbringer Chapter 113: Quote “The Almighty kept this from his Radiants,” Dalinar said. “When they discovered it, they abandoned their vows.” It is more than that. My memory of all this is … strange. First, I was not fully awake; I was but the spren of a storm. Then I was like a child. Changed and shaped during the frantic last days of a dying god. But I do remember. It was not only the truth of humankind’s origin that caused the Recreance. So, we learn that Honor did something to create the modern Stormfather around the time of the Recreance; but we also know that some form of the Stormfather predated the First Desolation, at the very least, from Words of Radiance interlude 5 (appropriately called the Rider of Storms): Quote This one, the soul of the storm, was the one the humans called Stormfather – and he was not one of her people’s gods. In fact, the songs named him a traitor – a spren who had chosen to protect humans instead of the listeners. So, we have a latter transformation, where it seems the Stormfather absorbed Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, consuming part of his mental framework (Mind Golem) into his personality. But by calling it a “latter transformation,” I’m implying that there was a former transformation, one where the highstorm absorbed a mind to become more than just a storm. I think the former transformation is told in the story of Fleet. It’s a passage I’ve tried to crack unsuccessfully before. I won’t post the entire song, but selections that seem significant. (In reverse chronological order, but that’s just what works best from a flow of thought.) Quote “His body dead, but not his will, within those winds his soul did rise. It flew upon the day’s last song, to win the race and claim the dawn. Past the sea and past the waves, our Fleet no longer lost his breath. Forever strong, forever fast, forever free to race the wind.” The ending screams “Cognitive Shadow” to me, one tied to the Investiture of the highstorms. I’m thinking now that his mind was used to create an avatar with the physical manifestation of the Investiture that was the existing highstorm. Quote “The storm grew strong, the storm grew wild. Who was this man all set to dash? No man should tempt the God of Storms. No fool had ever been so rash.” The God of Storms is not mentioned against through the story. There’s no personification of the storm throughout the race itself. I think the God of Storms is Honor, and this is indicating he was active and aware, preparing to create an avatar during the sequence. Quote “In time long past, in times I’ve known, he raced the Herald Chan-a-rach.” This is Hoid singing, so the events of Fleet’s story happened during his lifetime. The timelines fit; Chan-a-rach came from Ashyn, which was destroyed after Odium’s arrival, so Hoid could definitely have been around for it. The end of the story refers to the land of “dirt and soil,” so another indication that it was after humans came from Ashyn. But, if the Stormfather betrayed the singers, then this must have been before the First Desolation. And, if that’s the case, Fleet might not even be a human; he might have been a singer! The song refers to Alethkar and Azir, nations that didn’t exist until recently (in the grand scheme of things), so of course those weren’t the literal names of the locations while the story of Fleet was occurring. But if it was before the human expansion and invasion, then maybe this was a singer who did all this through singer territory? That would add an additional note of betrayal to the Stormfather’s actions. But the singers should have known better than to approach him by relying upon presumption of past relationship. The avatar still needed guiding and shaping by Honor, and who knows what else may have occurred during the events of the First Desolation. I get the sense there are more secrets incoming in the next few books that informed a lot of actions throughout Roshar’s history. Oh, one last thought before I go, on the sense of physical manifestations. The Stormfather didn’t appear in the Cognitive Realm when a highstorm passed by in Oathbringer when the gang was in Shadesmar. He appears to be limited to the Physical Realm, although he is pretty omnipresent in a Spiritual Realm sense. That fits the definition of avatar I’ve been using, as a physical manifestation. Nightwatcher The Nightwatcher is referred to as an avatar by Evi. Is it the same technical cosmere term that’s applied to Patji and the being on Obrodai? Sure, why not! Quote “If you wish to meet the One in person, you must travel to the Valley,” she said. “There you can speak with the One, or to his avatar, and be granted-“ “The Old Magic,” Dalinar hissed, opening his eyes. “The Nightwatcher.” But in all seriousness, I think the Nightwatcher would fit the definition of an avatar, as well. She is also a physical manifestation, the creeping mist that lives in one spot. She’s still learning; Cultivation lets her hold court to “understand” humans. This fits with the Stormfather ‘growing up’ so to speak, and also with the avatar on Obrodai who is beginning to manifest and had her personality guided. That’s always struck me as odd, why the Nightwatcher has been around so long (it’s called the Old Magic, after all), but is still working on understanding people. Maybe she wasn’t guided as an avatar until recently, and she was just a less mindless manifestation. (More on that in the next section.) The Unmade Truth be told, the Unmade weren’t even on my mind as a candidate when I sat down to write this theory. But as I’ve been putting words to the page and pulling together sources, I have no choice but to consider them, and they do fit with a lot of the concepts I’ve been attributing to avatars. We know there’s a parallel between Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and the Unmade [ B]. If the first two are avatars, then so are the rest. Which is what, specifically, was Unmade – nine individuals whose minds were taken and used to create the Unmade, but were never properly developed to make them all fully sentient. Or maybe they had been developed as personalities, and then they were undone at some point. They also fit the physical manifestation element of an avatar – we haven’t seen them lurking in the Cognitive Realm (although we did see their presence there in Kholinar and Thaylen city), they’ve always been in the Physical Realm as well. Even Yelig-nar had a gemstone, which I think is his physical manifestation. This ties the Unmade to Roshar specifically, which is why I think they stayed behind on Roshar after the Last Desolation when the Fused and the Voidspren all returned to Braize. They are a different phenomenon that is tied to Odium’s Investiture on Roshar, not a Splinter tied to Braize like the rest. The Sibling And logic follows that the third Bondsmith spren would also be an avatar. But if an avatar is a manifestation of a Shard… then which Shard? Honor and Cultivation already have their big avatars, Odium has his smaller avatars. I don’t think that we can have an avatar of multiple Shards simultaneously – these are manifestations of the Shard, not an external Splinter like the spren. Maybe Honor or Cultivation has two? Maybe Re-shephir isn’t the first Unmade to switch sides (the mysterious Tenth Unmade that got hinted at in epigraphs)? Maybe there’s an off-world Shard that was like, “Sure, I’ll drop an avatar,” and we’ll get a Letter from that Shard in one of the next two books saying “I already gave you an avatar to help, how’d that turn out for you?” For the physical manifestation, I’m leaning towards the gemstone pillar as being the Sibling’s manifestation. It’s slumbering, so the gemstones are off. This also kind of fits the three kinds of gods in the Horneater myths (trees = Nightwatcher, waters = Stormfather, mountains = Sibling) and the three gods in the Elia Stele (spren = Nightwatcher, stone = Sibling, wind = Stormfather). The Sibling is physically manifested in the rocks, perhaps specifically in gemstones. Perpendicularities I’ll take a break from specific avatars because I need to introduce another concept before I get to the next one. Avatars have perpendicularities; we know there’s one on First of the Sun, and there must be one on Obrodai as well (since Hoid was told not to go back there, and as far as we’ve seen, he still needs to use perpendicularities to transition between realms). I’m wondering if Trell has a perpendicularity on Scadrial, which is how he gets his agents on-world. Trell is Invested enough on Scadrial for his metal to function in Hemalurgy, so maybe he’s Invested enough to have a perpendicularity, as well. The perpendicularity situation on Scadrial is a little puzzling, in and of itself; ettmetal manifests in the South, and god metals have been shown to manifest near perpendicularities (lerasium by the Well of Ascension and atium by the Pits of Hathsin). But the Shadows of Self broadsheets include a Southerner using a perpendicularity in the Northern mountains. Does Harmony have two perpendicularities? Is there no useable perp near the ettmetal source, so they have to use the one in the North? Is the mountain pool actually Trell’s perp, and the Masked Figure is one of Trell’s agents (ooh, one of Trell’s kandra) sneaking in so he can make his way to the South? Lots of possibilities. [This comment has been removed.] The Stormfather manfiests “Honor’s perpendicularity.” Cultivation’s is in the Horneater Peaks (which kind of throws off my assigning the Sibling to the mountains and Nightwatcher to the trees, especially when the perpendicularities lie in the waters that I’ve assigned to the Stormfather), which is pretty far from the Nightwatcher, but it’s possible the two are still associated. And I’ve long thought we had one in the Purelake, as well, and that Hoid’s “false trail” he laid out for the Seventeenth Shard was that he had managed to use the Purelake perp. There only appear to be two functioning perpendicularities during the events of Oathbringer (since they had to rely on either Honor’s perp or Cultivation’s perp), so… maybe the Sibling’s slumber has deactivated the perp? And Hoid tricked the Sharders into thinking he’d managed to use it somehow anyways? We’re getting pretty far afield here, especially since I don’t think an avatar needs a perpendicularity (or else Odium would have nine perpendicularities, one for each Unmade.) But that Purelake bit still sticks in my craw, so I’ll dig it back up every once in a while. Sand Lord Back to potential avatars. This is quite obviously a manifestation of Autonomy on Taldain; I think it may be an avatar, not the Shard herself. I’m tying this in to the perpendicularity logic above (which is why I had to throw it there awkwardly in the middle), and maybe the way she closed her perpendicularity on Taldain was by destroying, disabling, or doing something else nasty to this avatar. Austre Austre, the God of Colors, is who the Idrians believe created Nalthis and sends the Returned. It’s interesting that Brandon has confirmed that Austre is not Endowment [K]. One option is that Austre is Adonalsium, and they have enough holdover belief from that time. I don’t think that gels with the Idrian doctrine and Awakening being heresy, and also it has nothing to do with avatars, so I’m not gonna devote a ton of time here, even though it may very well be the more plausible of the options. I’m gonna instead make Sand Lord parallels; both of them wish to stop the use of magic. That’s making me think of Autonomy, and maybe Austre is another one of Bavadin’s avatars. Or maybe Austre is one of Endowment’s avatars? A specific agent who Returns? (But Brandon volunteers that Endowment is the one behind who Returns [L], so where would Austre even fit in?) I don’t have any clue of a physical manifestation for Austre. Warbreaker 2 is going to be even farther off than Wax and Wayne 4, and I’ve already made my thoughts clear on that. But Austre is one of the last candidates I can think of for being an avatar. Skathan Another kick-the-tires idea, the Emperor on Darkside. Autonomy could have another avatar working on Darkside. Working off the prose, he’s said to have powers to “speak and force people to obey him,” and he doesn’t age. Maybe he’s just a Lord Ruler-like individual who gained power. I don’t think we’ve seen him make a claim to deity. So, I’m not even convincing myself that he’s an avatar, but there’s no harm in mentioning him in the list of potentials. The Fell Twins Aether of Night spoilers below: Spoiler Slaughter and Despair have always been tough to decipher; they function like Shards in many ways, but they’re both underneath the Former, who looks like an early version of Preservation. It’s easy to dismiss the Twins as a nonsense pre-Cosmere phenomenon that doesn’t currently have any analogue; but a lot of stuff from the White Sand prose (which was written even earlier and received no revision) fits well with my concepts for avatars, so I think Brandon had the concept in mind and was attempting to utilize it here. I do see several important of parallels to the other avatars I’ve suggested. I’m listing the Fell Twins here last, but trying to figure them out actually guided a lot of my interpretations above. Perpendicularities: obviously we have two Shardpools, one tied to each of the Twins. That fits with avatars like Patji and the one on Obrodai having their own perpendicularities. Physical manifestations. The twins were physical beings – they were trapped in the Shardpools, but we saw at the end, when they were released, they were there with physical bodies where the pools used to be. Familial relationships. Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and the Sibling; they refer to themselves as Siblings. Here, they’re referred to as Twins. We haven’t gotten a theme of siblings with any of Autonomy’s known avatars, but there is a bit of a theme of isolation with them. (“So must our will continue resolute. Alone.” Ooh, now I’m thinking about a potential new interpretation of Autonomy’s intent.) So perhaps Autonomy is the exception, with a bunch of “only children” scattered around intentionally. Magic Systems I don’t have a ton of conclusions to make about how avatars interact with magic systems. Some, like Patji, manifest their own. Others, like the Rosharan avatars, interact with an existing Shard’s magic system. Which makes sense with an avatar as an extension of the Shard, and not a distinct being. Honor has already Invested in Roshar, so creating an avatar that’s also Invested in Roshar doesn’t change anything. I assume Obrodai has some new magic. (Kite magic, perhaps [M]? Although Brandon was developing that in 2019, so that may not have existed when Oathbringer was published.) Maybe the Sand Lord is responsible for sand mastery. We’ve seen the sand on Roshar, but have we actually seen anyone using sand mastery off of Taldain in the modern era? (Since there’s no real magic on Darkside, maybe that’s a sign there’s no avatar there). But if a world already has magic systems, perhaps a new avatar just fits into them, regardless of what Shard it’s of. So Trell joins the Metallic Arts (Brandon hasn’t even considered adding a fourth [N]). Austre, if he is an avatar of an off-world Shard, fits in with Breath somehow. And the Unmade can be bonded to form a Bondsmith, which is why going beyond three was seen as “seditious,” since it required one of Odium’s avatars. This makes sense more from a narrative sense than a realmatic sense; you only need new magic if there’s no old magic there to piggyback off of. But that’s how a lot of these things seem to go, and we’ll have a small enough sample size that I’m sure someone will be able to fit it into some sort of a framework in the end. In Conclusion. I’m pushing 5000 words, so I’ll summarize my main points: An avatar is a physical manifestation of a Shard that derives its personality from the mind of a deceased individual. Avatars can create new magic systems and new perpendicularities on the planets they are Invested on, but they do not have to if they Shard or another Shard has already Invested on that world. Patji was a being Hoid knew before he (Patji) became an avatar. Trell is an avatar of Autonomy who will be made from the individual appearing in White Sand. The three Bondsmith spren and the Unmade are avatars on Roshar. There are a couple other beings through the cosmere who may be avatars, but I don't have much confidence at all in that list, and am more presenting it for the sake of thoroughness. Edited January 18, 2020 by Pagerunner Formatting never seems to copy right. 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tglassy Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 All that was awesome, and I only had one contradiction. The Unmade did show up in the Cognitive Realm, in Oathbringer, when the group used the Oathgate and accidentally transported to the Cognitive Realm. It was suggested that the Unmade was in the beads under them, and it was enormous. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 19, 2020 Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 10 hours ago, Pagerunner said: An avatar is a physical manifestation of a Shard that derives its personality from the mind of a deceased individual. Could that make the mists an avatar of Vin? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsecaller_17.5 Posted January 19, 2020 Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 13 hours ago, Karger said: Could that make the mists an avatar of Vin? That would be fun! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 19, 2020 Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 Just now, Elsecaller_17.5 said: That would be fun! I don't understand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsecaller_17.5 Posted January 19, 2020 Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, Karger said: I don't understand. If the mists were an avatar of Harmony made out of Vin it could lead to some great interactions. Particularly between her and Wax as I don't think they'd get along. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 19, 2020 Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: If the mists were an avatar of Harmony made out of Vin it could lead to some great interactions. Particularly between her and Wax as I don't think they'd get along. It would not really be her. The mists would react based on her personality and could contain some of her memories but Vin herself has passed beyond. This could mean that the mists would be more interested in certain events or people (IE parties, fights, people like Wax who spend time at night) and would dislike certain things (IE large gatherings of people) but sadly that is it. Edited January 19, 2020 by Karger 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted January 20, 2020 Report Share Posted January 20, 2020 (edited) I didn't really think much about Sliver Avatars despite the WoBs on them... (these ones: Spoiler Quote Questioner So Bavadin's avatar *inaudible*. Brandon Sanderson One of Bavadin's avatars. Questioner Of those avatars, are some or all of them actual Splinters of Autonomy? Brandon Sanderson The terminology gets kind of sticky here. In Cosmere terms, some would say that counts as Splinters, some would say not. The avatars aren't necessarily aware but Bavadin always is. A lot of people in Cosmere would call that a Splinter. Questioner My follow up to that would be, is it possible for a person to Ascend and become a Vessel of one of those Splinters? Brandon Sanderson That is plausible. Yes. It could happen. It would be tough because they will have personalities of their own and so something would need to happen. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) Quote Pod The combination of a Shard and its Vessel leads to sapient mind with access to a virtually infinite pool of Investiture. Are avatars the product of a similar combination of a mind and a pool of Investiture, only on a smaller scale, with less power? Brandon Sanderson I would say that is an accurate representation of what an avatar is. It’s not the only way, but it is an accurate... some avatars are that. I would say that’s the standard. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) ) I did, however, have a theory on the difference between a Splinter & an Avatar. The analysis of Patji's letter is really intriguing, I didn't really notice the use of proper names there beyond going "oh Patji knows Hoid"... I don't know if I can get behind the idea that the term Avatar fits The Stormfather yet. Well, the most interesting entity for this kind of analysis for me is still the Mist Spirit. I've been wondering on the nature of the Purelake, specifically since seeing this topic: wondering on which brought me on board the Purelake is not just a place of weird spren bonds (instead of all the other topics on Purelake as a Perpendicularity) and the weird fact that the waters of the Purelake drain during a Highstorm. I'm not fully convinced, maybe its waters could have diluted liquid Investiture or something, perhaps a proto-Perpendicularity or something like that? I'm fully onboard the Austre is one of Autonomy's, that just sounds like something Autonomy would do Edited January 20, 2020 by Honorless 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternal Khol Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, Honorless said: I didn't really think much about Sliver Avatars despite the WoBs on them... (these ones: Hide contents ) I did, however, have a theory on the difference between a Splinter & an Avatar. The analysis of Patji's letter is really intriguing, I didn't really notice the use of proper names there beyond going "oh Patji knows Hoid"... I don't know if I can get behind the idea that the term Avatar fits The Stormfather yet. Well, the most interesting entity for this kind of analysis for me is still the Mist Spirit. I've been wondering on the nature of the Purelake, specifically since seeing this topic: wondering on which brought me on board the Purelake is not just a place of weird spren bonds (instead of all the other topics on Purelake as a Perpendicularity) and the weird fact that the waters of the Purelake drain during a Highstorm. I'm not fully convinced, maybe its waters could have diluted liquid Investiture or something, perhaps a proto-Perpendicularity or something like that? I'm fully onboard the Austre is one of Autonomy's, that just sounds like something Autonomy would do I wouldn't call the Avatars splinters. They're close but... A Splinter to me, is when a Shard willingly or unwillingly gives up some of their power. Usually to create something with it.(spren, seons, returned, etc...) Now, a shard still has some control over that splinter, but not as much now that it's its "own" being But with an Avatar, its like Autonomy isn't separating that power from herself.it's still part of her being... just not... It's like with spren. I'll uses Honorspren as an example. So Honorspren are just a chunk of Honor's Investiture that after laying around for so long gains Sentience or Sapience. They still have a deep connection to Honor because they are made from a chunk of his power but their thoughts and actions aren't tied to the Vessel of the Shard. With an Avatar, their mind is directly tied to the Vessel of the Shard. WoB says that if a Avatar formed on its own(which is possible) the Vessel would be aware of it. There's no way they couldn't be. Also that "The avatars aren't necessarily aware but Bavadin always is." so I think what Bavadin is doing is finding pools of her power and giving them some semblance of a mind(enough to be somewhat aware but not enough to be an individual), so that while they aren't really aware, and can't do much, Bavadin is always aware and with these Avatars already in place she is able to further stretch her mind and find out what's happening in different places in the cosmere. as for the different personalities, I think each one has some aspect of Bavadin in them Edited January 21, 2020 by Eternal Khol 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Eternal Khol said: I wouldn't call the Avatars splinters. They're close but... A Splinter to me, is when a Shard willingly or unwillingly gives up some of their power. Usually to create something with it.(spren, seons, returned, etc...) Now, a shard still has some control over that splinter, but not as much now that it's its "own" being But with an Avatar, its like Autonomy isn't separating that power from herself.it's still part of her being... just not... It's like with spren. I'll uses Honorspren as an example. So Honorspren are just a chunk of Honor's Investiture that after laying around for so long gains Sentience or Sapience. They still have a deep connection to Honor because they are made from a chunk of his power but their thoughts and actions aren't tied to the Vessel of the Shard. With an Avatar, their mind is directly tied to the Vessel of the Shard. WoB says that if a Avatar formed on its own(which is possible) the Vessel would be aware of it. There's no way they couldn't be. Also that "The avatars aren't necessarily aware but Bavadin always is." so I think what Bavadin is doing is finding pools of her power and giving them some semblance of a mind(enough to be somewhat aware but not enough to be an individual), so that while they aren't really aware, and can't do much, Bavadin is always aware and with these Avatars already in place she is able to further stretch her mind and find out what's happening in different places in the cosmere. as for the different personalities, I think each one has some aspect of Bavadin in them My theory is that the difference between a Splinter and an Avatar is basically whether the Shard directed a part of their own Investiture or Investiture from the time of Adonalsium that got assigned to them post-Shattering. And that's why I rather like the idea of The Stormfather being or closer to being an Avatar than a Splinter Edited January 21, 2020 by Honorless 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 13 hours ago, Honorless said: My theory is that the difference between a Splinter and an Avatar is basically whether the Shard directed a part of their own Investiture or Investiture from the time of Adonalsium that got assigned to them post-Shattering. So you think Trell was made before the shattering and just redirected by Autonomy? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 15 minutes ago, Karger said: So you think Trell was made before the shattering and just redirected by Autonomy? Not necessarily, just check my second para from the post you quoted 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, Honorless said: Not necessarily, just check my second para from the post you quoted I am not sure how that helps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Karger said: I am not sure how that helps. The idea is regarding The Stormfather's nature as a part of Honor's Investiture that was created by Adonalsium but altered by Honor and merged with its Vessel's Cognitive Shadow. That rather muddles up his nature but he fits closer to the WoBs' description of Avatars quite well as Pagerunner noted As for Trell, no idea! Maybe after The Lost Metal or more likely the next era books 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, Honorless said: As for Trell, no idea! Maybe after The Lost Metal or more likely the next era books What about Autonomy's newest avatar? The one that is being endowed with a hatred of Hoid. That one is currently in the process of manifesting. Edited January 21, 2020 by Karger 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Karger said: What about Autonomy's newest avatar? The one that is being endowed with a hatred of Hoid. That one is currently in the process of manifesting. Of whom we have a single mention? I'm not going to be speculating about that one yet Why? Do you have any theories in mind regarding her? Edited January 21, 2020 by Honorless 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Honorless said: Of whom we have a single mention? I'm not going to be speculating about that one yet The avatar themselves is not important. Only the way they are talked about. They are currently being made and this does not seem to be a particularly unusual event. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, Karger said: The avatar themselves is not important. Only the way they are talked about. They are currently being made and this does not seem to be a particularly unusual event. Um, we don't have any indicators of frequency here. Only a comparative analysis of what kind of Avatars can be found more often, if we're reading the WoBs right 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanatos Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 I think Autonomy is creating avatars kinda like Eternal Khol said, shes spreading out her awareness into the Cosmere. The Shards all have infinite power, but the vessels minds are finite so they cant use all of infinity. What if Autonomy is spreading out her awareness to be able to reach more of that infinite power she knows she has. But cant reach. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternal Khol Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Thanatos said: I think Autonomy is creating avatars kinda like Eternal Khol said, shes spreading out her awareness into the Cosmere. The Shards all have infinite power, but the vessels minds are finite so they cant use all of infinity. What if Autonomy is spreading out her awareness to be able to reach more of that infinite power she knows she has. But cant reach. Exactly. And this fits in with the whole "they aren't aware but Bavadin always is" WoB Bavadins mind isn't infinite like her power, so she creates these Avatars with some form of consciousness, so instead of having to actually move or focus her Nexus somewhere else which would take a lot of energy or whatever;she can just jump into or focus on that Avatar instantly because they are already there and they are a part of her. So with these Avatars in place she can tinker around and see what going on with all these world that she's not actually on, but she is, in a way. Edited January 21, 2020 by Eternal Khol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanatos Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 Eternal Khol, Yup, thats my thoughts as well going down this particular rabbit hole. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner Posted January 25, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2020 On 1/18/2020 at 3:50 PM, Tglassy said: All that was awesome, and I only had one contradiction. The Unmade did show up in the Cognitive Realm, in Oathbringer, when the group used the Oathgate and accidentally transported to the Cognitive Realm. It was suggested that the Unmade was in the beads under them, and it was enormous. Right, we do see some manifestation of the Unmade in the Cognitive Realm. I'm suggesting, if they are Avatars, we always have to have a manifestation of them in the Physical Realm, as well. As opposed to, say, Cryptics, who are chilling out entirely in Shadesmar unless they're actively transferred over. On 1/19/2020 at 0:26 AM, Karger said: Could that make the mists an avatar of Vin? I don't think the mists have displayed any semblence of intelligence; they were guided by a Shard, but I can't recall any indication they had an active personality of their own, much less a personality that changed in the second era. And we also saw Vin in Secret History for the entire duration between her death and her going Beyond, and I don't see anything in there that would indicate the creation of an avatar. On 1/20/2020 at 6:53 PM, Eternal Khol said: I wouldn't call the Avatars splinters. They're close but... A Splinter to me, is when a Shard willingly or unwillingly gives up some of their power. Usually to create something with it.(spren, seons, returned, etc...) Now, a shard still has some control over that splinter, but not as much now that it's its "own" being But with an Avatar, its like Autonomy isn't separating that power from herself.it's still part of her being... just not... It's like with spren. I'll uses Honorspren as an example. So Honorspren are just a chunk of Honor's Investiture that after laying around for so long gains Sentience or Sapience. They still have a deep connection to Honor because they are made from a chunk of his power but their thoughts and actions aren't tied to the Vessel of the Shard. With an Avatar, their mind is directly tied to the Vessel of the Shard. WoB says that if a Avatar formed on its own(which is possible) the Vessel would be aware of it. There's no way they couldn't be. Also that "The avatars aren't necessarily aware but Bavadin always is." so I think what Bavadin is doing is finding pools of her power and giving them some semblance of a mind(enough to be somewhat aware but not enough to be an individual), so that while they aren't really aware, and can't do much, Bavadin is always aware and with these Avatars already in place she is able to further stretch her mind and find out what's happening in different places in the cosmere. as for the different personalities, I think each one has some aspect of Bavadin in them Brandon said the "terminology gets kind of sticky" when distinguishing between avatars and Splinters, and I view this as a function of realmatic theory being the softest magic system Brandon has in his books. The Shards are gods, and the things Brandon writes them to do and to be are reflections, exaggerations, and explorations of various real-life views and doctrines, mixed in with a hearty dose of other fantasy and mythology tropes. So, we start with the goal: Shards are able to do things like create subservient personal manifestations of their power (avatars), they're able to create autonomous magical beings (spren), they're able to give their power to mortals to accomplish magic (Honorblades), they're able to give their power to mortals to create ghosts (Cognitive Shadows), they're able to break another Shard's power so it cannot be picked back up (Splintering). And, with those goals in mind, Brandon is able to create terms like "Splinter" to reflect similarities. But the term "Splinter" itself is descriptive, not proscriptive. It's not, "Here's what a Splinter is and isn't; how does that play out in different scenarios?" It's, "Here are some different scenarios Shards can use their power. Some of them look pretty similar; let's describe them as Splinters." This is in contrast with the harder magics like Allomancy and Surgebinding. I'll take steelpushing and gravitation together as an example. They each provide a specific way to move things, and nothing beyond that. The applications are made more interesting by limitations, taking the finite proscribed power and using it in unique ways; shields that attract arrows, flying using a series of horseshoes, those sorts of things. Those strict definitions let you use them as a narrative device, problem solving and resolving plots and those sorts of things. But softer magic, the other way around, isn't used as a plot device, it's more used for the setting. Splinters enable you to have spren or to have people with magic. Avatars enable you to have additional deity figures. Fundamental terminologies about soft magic will have a tendency to fall apart when you push to find their limitations. This gets reflected in-world with things like Cognitive Shadows, where some people think the soul is preserved, and others think a copy is made of the soul, and there are good cases to be made either way because various types of Cognitive Shadows match up with better with one description or another. And the concept of a Sliver is tied in there somehow, since the only visible impact we've seen from the concept of an "expanded mind" from holding a Shard or a large portion of the Shard's power is that the individual can persist as a Cognitive Shadow. And the Splinters we've seen, similarly, seem to cover a lot of different scenarios. Divine Breath is referred to as a Splinter, like Honorblades. But regular Breath is referred to as Innate Investiture. But Breath can be transferred, passed around, collected like some Splinters we've seen, and it does grant magical abilities. Where's the line between a Shard's Investure being given as a Splinter and a Shard's Investiture being given as Innate Investiture? I think that question itself is flawed; you'll often be able to make an argument either way, but the Shards can do these things because Brandon designed them accomplish these goals, first and foremost. That's why I think trying to understand the difference between a Splinter and an avatar is a bit reductive. Splinters are ways that Shards give their power to others. Avatars are ways for a Shard to grant personality to their power. But not every Splinter is identical, and not every Avatar is identical, and there will definitely be a place in the middle where you're like, "It's got stuff in common with both, and it diverges from both." 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternal Khol Posted January 25, 2020 Report Share Posted January 25, 2020 5 minutes ago, Pagerunner said: Right, we do see some manifestation of the Unmade in the Cognitive Realm. I'm suggesting, if they are Avatars, we always have to have a manifestation of them in the Physical Realm, as well. As opposed to, say, Cryptics, who are chilling out entirely in Shadesmar unless they're actively transferred over. I don't think the mists have displayed any semblence of intelligence; they were guided by a Shard, but I can't recall any indication they had an active personality of their own, much less a personality that changed in the second era. And we also saw Vin in Secret History for the entire duration between her death and her going Beyond, and I don't see anything in there that would indicate the creation of an avatar. Brandon said the "terminology gets kind of sticky" when distinguishing between avatars and Splinters, and I view this as a function of realmatic theory being the softest magic system Brandon has in his books. The Shards are gods, and the things Brandon writes them to do and to be are reflections, exaggerations, and explorations of various real-life views and doctrines, mixed in with a hearty dose of other fantasy and mythology tropes. So, we start with the goal: Shards are able to do things like create subservient personal manifestations of their power (avatars), they're able to create autonomous magical beings (spren), they're able to give their power to mortals to accomplish magic (Honorblades), they're able to give their power to mortals to create ghosts (Cognitive Shadows), they're able to break another Shard's power so it cannot be picked back up (Splintering). And, with those goals in mind, Brandon is able to create terms like "Splinter" to reflect similarities. But the term "Splinter" itself is descriptive, not proscriptive. It's not, "Here's what a Splinter is and isn't; how does that play out in different scenarios?" It's, "Here are some different scenarios Shards can use their power. Some of them look pretty similar; let's describe them as Splinters." This is in contrast with the harder magics like Allomancy and Surgebinding. I'll take steelpushing and gravitation together as an example. They each provide a specific way to move things, and nothing beyond that. The applications are made more interesting by limitations, taking the finite proscribed power and using it in unique ways; shields that attract arrows, flying using a series of horseshoes, those sorts of things. Those strict definitions let you use them as a narrative device, problem solving and resolving plots and those sorts of things. But softer magic, the other way around, isn't used as a plot device, it's more used for the setting. Splinters enable you to have spren or to have people with magic. Avatars enable you to have additional deity figures. Fundamental terminologies about soft magic will have a tendency to fall apart when you push to find their limitations. This gets reflected in-world with things like Cognitive Shadows, where some people think the soul is preserved, and others think a copy is made of the soul, and there are good cases to be made either way because various types of Cognitive Shadows match up with better with one description or another. And the concept of a Sliver is tied in there somehow, since the only visible impact we've seen from the concept of an "expanded mind" from holding a Shard or a large portion of the Shard's power is that the individual can persist as a Cognitive Shadow. And the Splinters we've seen, similarly, seem to cover a lot of different scenarios. Divine Breath is referred to as a Splinter, like Honorblades. But regular Breath is referred to as Innate Investiture. But Breath can be transferred, passed around, collected like some Splinters we've seen, and it does grant magical abilities. Where's the line between a Shard's Investure being given as a Splinter and a Shard's Investiture being given as Innate Investiture? I think that question itself is flawed; you'll often be able to make an argument either way, but the Shards can do these things because Brandon designed them accomplish these goals, first and foremost. That's why I think trying to understand the difference between a Splinter and an avatar is a bit reductive. Splinters are ways that Shards give their power to others. Avatars are ways for a Shard to grant personality to their power. But not every Splinter is identical, and not every Avatar is identical, and there will definitely be a place in the middle where you're like, "It's got stuff in common with both, and it diverges from both." Brandon has also stated that the Shards are pretty much just large scale Splinters 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 25, 2020 Report Share Posted January 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Pagerunner said: I don't think the mists have displayed any semblence of intelligence; they were guided by a Shard, but I can't recall any indication they had an active personality of their own, much less a personality that changed in the second era They same could be said of Paji. I also think that the things the mist "pays attention to" could count as a personality. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner Posted January 25, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2020 24 minutes ago, Karger said: They same could be said of Paji. I also think that the things the mist "pays attention to" could count as a personality. Patji wrote an Oathbringer letter. He has definitely displayed personality. What do you mean by "the things the mist pays attention to"? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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