Truthwatcher Oaths(Like Willshaper Oaths based on what we have)

[Karger]

@Truthwatcher_17.5 this one is for you.

For those of you who don't know I believe that Radiant Oaths (with the exception of Lightweavers) follow a pattern.  The first ideal is constant, the second is about service, the third is about fairness, the fourth is about trust and the fifth is about the ultimate goal.  This belief fuels all of my oath theories. 

Keep in mind that despite Renarin and in part because of him are an order we know little about.  We know that they tend to be service oriented, that they tend to be intelligent, many of them are taciturn for various reasons, and that more Truthwatchers have walked Roshar in recent years then almost any other order.

The first ideal for Truthwatchers is of course the same "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."  This is always the first ideal.  After this however we have to speculate. 

The second ideal for Truthwatchers will almost certainly involve what the Truthwatcher order is supposed to do for others.  At the very end of WoR Renarin claims that what he does is see.  The question then is obviously what does a Truthwatcher see and how does that help anyone?  Whatever Renarrin sees and however untypical his power here is the important thing is not what he sees but how he uses his knowledge.  Consistently Renarin tries to help people.  Despite his continued difficulty in his own life he is surprisingly selfless in his love and devotion to others.  What he looks for is not information or personal opportunities but solutions to other people's problems.  As such I think the first oath is "I will look for the solution(s) to their problems not mine."

The third ideal is about fairness.  I think this is going to be critically important to a Truthwatcher.  Even if they do not normally see the future any kind of ability to see beyond what other people are normally capable of creates enormous ethical conundrums as well as a lot of temptation for someone who despite their capabilities is only human.  It is heavily implied that Renarin knew about Adolin's guilt before anyone else and decided not to say anything.  In the future especially as he gains more experience with his abilities he will likely be confronted with more. Of course part of his decision was because he loved his brother but he seemed conflicted about it for some time.  It is a small wonder then that Truthwatchers were known for an "abundance of tact."  People with exceptional abilities in seeing what we cannot to often are unable to see their own failings.  The third oath should prevent this.  I think it will be along the lines of.  "I will speak only for the common good not for personal gain or notoriety." 

The fourth ideal is about trust.  Trust is difficult for everyone but imagine if you had supernatural means to know what people really thought of you or to help you cheat in social engagements or politics.  Eventually you will be incentivize to stop trusting people and instead become paranoid damaging your ability to work with others.  There are advantages to this school of thought but also many problems with it.  As those of us who read Mistborn know trust even if foolish might be worth it.  Truthwatchers have to shoulder the burden of not being able to tell everyone everything.  They have to sensor their own speech even in causal conversation.  This will probably not make them liked.  If they take after their Herald many of them will also be scholastically inclined.  This means that they may have to work with people who they do not like or have not personally met or examined before.  They will also have to trust these people.  As such I think the forth ideal for Truthwatchers is "I will not look to attempt to understand everyone but will instead proceed with the assumption that people are good.and deserving." 

The goal of the Truthwatcher seems to be about see problems for what they are.  In their name I can't help but detect a certain cynicism.  The problems that a Truthwatcher faces are feel in a way that the problems faced by other orders are not.  Orphans, tired parents, street urchins who can't go to school.  This is what a Truthwatcher can't help but see.  Suffering is something that they cannot avoid.  A Truthwatcher must also look to something else.  A world where problems are less where there is less suffering.  They have to be able to hope for it.  I think the last ideal of the Truthwatchers is "I will maintain hope for our future."

My pattern of radiant oath theory can be found here if you are interested.

Spoiler

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Karger

[Elsecaller_17.5]

It is done. 

This has probably been my favorite series of posts on the shard and I'm am excited to see it continue! Keep up the good work!

[Karger]

44 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

It is done.

Not quite.  If I am keeping track I still have to cover Bondsmiths and Windrunners.

44 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

This has probably been my favorite series of posts on the shard and I'm am excited to see it continue! Keep up the good work!

Thank you!  This means a lot.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Ookla the Prolific

[Honorless]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Not quite.  If I am keeping track I still have to cover Bondsmiths and Windrunners.

You're liking my list? Yay!

 

This time my favourite Ideal is the third one. Surprisingly humble, human & practical, took me off-guard

On the other hand, the fifth Ideal I'm not very sure about, but we are getting into "we don't know much about this" territory here

Edited January 16, 2020 by Honorless

[Karger]

9 hours ago, Honorless said:

On the other hand, the fifth Ideal I'm not very sure about, but we are getting into "we don't know much about this" territory here

Considering we have never seen a Truthwatcher swear an ideal and that we  have never seen any order swear a fourth ideal that is kind of inevitable here.  On theother hand if you have a better suggestion I am open to it.

9 hours ago, Honorless said:

This time my favourite Ideal is the third one. Surprisingly humble, human & practical, took me off-guard

Thank you.  I think I had the most information on it and this kind of ethical dilemma is very common in the real world.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Ookla the Prolific

[Honorless]

Your Third Ideal aged well

(I told ya that one was good!)

Edited June 9, 2020 by R J

[Karger]

4 hours ago, R J said:

Your Third Ideal aged well

Dam.  We really nailed that one didn't we.  I finished the stonewards until further input.  I think I will take this one next(I am going easiest to hardest).  New Truthwatcher info spoiler for length.

Spoiler

Truthwatcher oaths are themed around seeking to find ultimate truth and sharing it. They are very concerned with knowledge and the proper exploitation of it. Note that this should not be confused with the Lightweavers, whose oaths are themed toward personal truths about themselves, said for reasons of self-actualization. Truthwatchers are more concerned with the fundamental truths of the universe, and whether or not those in power are being truthful with the people they lead.

The Truthwatchers are seen as quiet, largely known as the most scholarly Order of Knights Radiant. They tend to attract scientists primarily, but also scholars or thinkers of all types. This extends to some who might not normally be known as scholarly but instead as someone often consumed by their own thoughts. In general, they tend to be reserved, particularly in person, though a small minority of Truthwatchers are greatly concerned with the actions of the powerful and might be likened to investigative reporters. These make their opinions known loudly and forcefully, particularly if they think someone in power is abusing that power or lying about fundamental truths. Note that, as with all Knights Radiant, there is great disagreement within the Order about what is the truth. However, Truthwatchers tend to approach these discussions with enthusiasm, even if they generally prefer to write their opinions rather than speak them. Among the Knights Radiant, the Truthwatchers tend to be those who hold the knowledge and secrets of Surgebinding and are the ones to discover many of the newer advances in things like fabrial technology.

I think my second oath of

On 1/15/2020 at 6:15 PM, Karger said:

"I will look for the solution(s) to their problems not mine."

works very well with

Quote

They are very concerned with knowledge and the proper exploitation of it. Note that this should not be confused with the Lightweavers, whose oaths are themed toward personal truths about themselves, said for reasons of self-actualization. Truthwatchers are more concerned with the fundamental truths of the universe, and whether or not those in power are being truthful with the people they lead.

On 1/15/2020 at 6:15 PM, Karger said:

"I will speak only for the common good not for personal gain or notoriety." 

works with

Quote

They are very concerned with knowledge and the proper exploitation of it

On 1/15/2020 at 6:15 PM, Karger said:

"I will not look to attempt to understand everyone but will instead proceed with the assumption that people are good.and deserving." 

On 1/15/2020 at 6:15 PM, Karger said:

"I will maintain hope for our future."

We don't have anything new on this but I don't think we have anything against it either.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Karger

[rosin_the_beau]

First of all, this is a beautifully crafted theory, and I love it, and I think that these all could work as oaths.

That being said, I am a Truthwatcher myself (identified by both the test and reading the order description), and I feel like I need to put my own two cents in.

I noticed a pattern in the way the descriptions of the Orders are set up: For the orders we know oaths of, the beginning of their second Oath is the subtitle of their description. (off-topic ramble: I think that we should call the First Oath  the "Radiant Oath" as that is where Radiance starts, and the next oath the First Oath of the specific order.) Windrunners start with "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves", Skybreakers with "I will seek justice above all else", and so on.

Therefore, I believe that a Truthwatcher's second Oath will be something along the lines of "I will seek truth instead of lies" or "I will seek the truth and share what I find."

If you take that as a base for the next oaths, the third, going off your oultine, would be: "I will seek truth not for my own gain, but for the good of all"

The fourth as you wrote it does not fit completely into this framework. Your explanation of the fourth seems spot on, so a better oath, and fitting with what the fourth seems to be for a Windrunner, would be: "I will not force others to accept the truth."

Your fifth fits in almost perfectly, and I think would be necessary for all Truthwatchers. However, I think with the focus on seeking the ultimate truth, the final thought about truth isn't cynicism, as you say. Yes, it is important to keep hope up, but the act of pursuing truth does not destroy it. I think the final oath would be "I will accept when I am wrong"

Anyway you spin it, this theory was great, even if your oaths seem a little more Edgedancer to me. I'm fully prepared to admit that I'm wrong.

[Watchcry]

1 hour ago, rosin_the_beau said:

First of all, this is a beautifully crafted theory, and I love it, and I think that these all could work as oaths.

That being said, I am a Truthwatcher myself (identified by both the test and reading the order description), and I feel like I need to put my own two cents in.

I noticed a pattern in the way the descriptions of the Orders are set up: For the orders we know oaths of, the beginning of their second Oath is the subtitle of their description. (off-topic ramble: I think that we should call the First Oath  the "Radiant Oath" as that is where Radiance starts, and the next oath the First Oath of the specific order.) Windrunners start with "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves", Skybreakers with "I will seek justice above all else", and so on.

Therefore, I believe that a Truthwatcher's second Oath will be something along the lines of "I will seek truth instead of lies" or "I will seek the truth and share what I find."

If you take that as a base for the next oaths, the third, going off your oultine, would be: "I will seek truth not for my own gain, but for the good of all"

The fourth as you wrote it does not fit completely into this framework. Your explanation of the fourth seems spot on, so a better oath, and fitting with what the fourth seems to be for a Windrunner, would be: "I will not force others to accept the truth."

Your fifth fits in almost perfectly, and I think would be necessary for all Truthwatchers. However, I think with the focus on seeking the ultimate truth, the final thought about truth isn't cynicism, as you say. Yes, it is important to keep hope up, but the act of pursuing truth does not destroy it. I think the final oath would be "I will accept when I am wrong"

Anyway you spin it, this theory was great, even if your oaths seem a little more Edgedancer to me. I'm fully prepared to admit that I'm wrong.

Your fourth oath sounds more like a Willshaper/ Libertarian oath. But it could definitely be a Truthwatcher one.  We'll just have to see!

[Karger]

13 hours ago, Watchcry said:

Your fourth oath sounds more like a Willshaper/ Libertarian oath. But it could definitely be a Truthwatcher one.  We'll just have to see!

I view it more as a presumption of innocence.  You can't verify a negative yet for someone whose powers and temperament are both logically inclined to try the temptation will always be there.  They need to check that kind of behavior.

[theTruthshaper]

The Truthwatcher's second oath always felt to me something like this:

Quote

What is true is already so.
Owning up to it doesn't make it worse.
Not being open about it doesn't make it go away.
And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with.
Anything untrue isn't there to be lived.
People can stand what is true,
for they are already enduring it.

—Eugene Gendlin

This is obviously very long, but I am talking more about the idea behind it.

[rosin_the_beau]

@Watchcry as a way of explanation:

You are absolutely right that the Idea of letting people be free is the basis of Willshapers. However, it is very important to let people believe what they want, even if that means they reject the Truth. (This is me talking from my Terry Pratchett background.)

Also, if you look at the fourth Ideal with the Fifth (as I see them). It becomes much more clearly a Truthwatcher Ideal.

[rosin_the_beau]

@The_Truthwatcher The idea being "There's no apologizing for the truth", right?

I honestly didn't think about that. It fits right in with at least my philosophy.

[Watchcry]

31 minutes ago, rosin_the_beau said:

@Watchcry as a way of explanation:

You are absolutely right that the Idea of letting people be free is the basis of Willshapers. However, it is very important to let people believe what they want, even if that means they reject the Truth. (This is me talking from my Terry Pratchett background.)

Also, if you look at the fourth Ideal with the Fifth (as I see them). It becomes much more clearly a Truthwatcher Ideal.

Willshapers and Libertarians DO believe in letting people believe what they want. That's what freedom is.  That's the definition of those organizations.  

[rosin_the_beau]

12 minutes ago, Watchcry said:

Willshapers and Libertarians DO believe in letting people believe what they want. That's what freedom is.  That's the definition of those organizations.  

You are absolutely right. I was just clarifying a little further

[ShrubSeph]

@Watchcry, I think what @rosin_the_beau is trying to say is that freedom of belief can also be a belief of the Truthwatchers.

Quote

Note that, as with all Knights Radiant, there is great disagreement within the Order about what is the truth. However, Truthwatchers tend to approach these discussions with enthusiasm, even if they generally prefer to write their opinions rather than speak them. 

 

[agrabes]

On 7/7/2020 at 9:18 PM, rosin_the_beau said:

First of all, this is a beautifully crafted theory, and I love it, and I think that these all could work as oaths.

That being said, I am a Truthwatcher myself (identified by both the test and reading the order description), and I feel like I need to put my own two cents in.

I noticed a pattern in the way the descriptions of the Orders are set up: For the orders we know oaths of, the beginning of their second Oath is the subtitle of their description. (off-topic ramble: I think that we should call the First Oath  the "Radiant Oath" as that is where Radiance starts, and the next oath the First Oath of the specific order.) Windrunners start with "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves", Skybreakers with "I will seek justice above all else", and so on.

Therefore, I believe that a Truthwatcher's second Oath will be something along the lines of "I will seek truth instead of lies" or "I will seek the truth and share what I find."

If you take that as a base for the next oaths, the third, going off your oultine, would be: "I will seek truth not for my own gain, but for the good of all"

The fourth as you wrote it does not fit completely into this framework. Your explanation of the fourth seems spot on, so a better oath, and fitting with what the fourth seems to be for a Windrunner, would be: "I will not force others to accept the truth."

Your fifth fits in almost perfectly, and I think would be necessary for all Truthwatchers. However, I think with the focus on seeking the ultimate truth, the final thought about truth isn't cynicism, as you say. Yes, it is important to keep hope up, but the act of pursuing truth does not destroy it. I think the final oath would be "I will accept when I am wrong"

Anyway you spin it, this theory was great, even if your oaths seem a little more Edgedancer to me. I'm fully prepared to admit that I'm wrong.

I was surprised to see that I scored pretty highly toward Truthwatcher in the order personality test.  Never thought this would be an order that would fit me, but I've taken a little more interest in it since taking the test, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents.  I really like your 2nd and 3rd Oaths, but I'm not sure the 4th or 5th one fits for me.

Your 4th Oath- I will not force others to accept the truth.

I don't know if this fits with the Truthwatchers description provided in the order test.  In the description, it emphasizes the interaction between Truthwatchers and the political rulers.  That is the "watcher" part of Truthwatcher - they see a part of their order's goal to make sure that people in power don't use lies to deceive and/or abuse the people who they have authority over.  I think the 4th oath for Radiants in general is about learning the exceptions to the rule - learning when you -shouldn't- just always tell the truth as loudly as you can.  For example - if Truthwatchers know the true, complete secret behind the Recreance it would be a moral dilemma for them whether or not to reveal it.  On the one hand, it's telling the truth which can never be truly "wrong", on the other there's a good chance that it's better for others to remain ignorant because knowing the information may cause a second Recreance and have devastating consequences.  It's a sign of maturity - the young reporter goes and tells the world the instant he thinks he's got a juicy story, while the more mature reporter thinks about the consequences of what might happen before he does.

My proposed 4th Oath - I will speak the Truth only when it is right.

Your 5th Oath - I will accept when I am wrong.

To me, this doesn't seem quite right.  It feels too.. negative to me.  I could see this possibly being an oath for the Truthwatchers because it is an important thing to internalize, but not the final oath.  I think the final oath has to be something about completely mastering the way and/or purpose of seeking truth.  My suggestion would be to replace your 3rd Oath with this oath and have something like the concept of your 3rd Oath be the final oath.  I'm not sure I'm totally on board with Karger's idea either but I think it hits closer to the mark for me.  I think it's got to encapsulate what it means to seek and preserve the ultimate truths of the universe and keep people informed.

My proposed 5th Oath - I will spread Truth as far and wide as I can for the good of Society.

[Pathfinder]

@Karger

not sure if this was mentioned elsewhere, but on the kickstarter page it was just posted 3 hours ago. I think this is pertinent to all your oath theories:

 

"The quotes on the coins are the canon of the second ideal of each order. Remember that the wording used may differ (for example, the Lightweavers actually speak a truth, rather than saying "I will speak my truth"), but the quote listed here is the primary idea behind the second ideal, and in many ways the theme behind the order's ideals as a whole."

 

That is from Michael Bateman. According to the kickstarter and the livestreams, he is on Dragonsteel's staff. I don't know his title or association. Just saw his name pop up in that regard, so I believe what he says is legit. So the tag lines of each order is the basic idea of their second order 

Trutchwathcer: I will seek truth

Elsecaller: I will reach my potential

dustbringer: i will seek self mastery

and etc

Edited July 11, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Watchcry]

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

@Karger

not sure if this was mentioned elsewhere, but on the kickstarter page it was just posted 3 hours ago. I think this is pertinent to all your oath theories:

 

"The quotes on the coins are the canon of the second ideal of each order. Remember that the wording used may differ (for example, the Lightweavers actually speak a truth, rather than saying "I will speak my truth"), but the quote listed here is the primary idea behind the second ideal, and in many ways the theme behind the order's ideals as a whole."

 

That is from Michael Bateman. According to the kickstarter and the livestreams, he is on Dragonsteel's staff. I don't know his title or association. Just saw his name pop up in that regard, so I believe what he says is legit. So the tag lines of each order is the basic idea of their second order 

Trutchwathcer: I will seek truth

Elsecaller: I will reach my potential

dustbringer: i will seek self mastery

and etc

Their oaths are also themed around those those concepts as well, according to the new information released last month. 

[Chiberty]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

@Karger

not sure if this was mentioned elsewhere, but on the kickstarter page it was just posted 3 hours ago. I think this is pertinent to all your oath theories:

 

"The quotes on the coins are the canon of the second ideal of each order. Remember that the wording used may differ (for example, the Lightweavers actually speak a truth, rather than saying "I will speak my truth"), but the quote listed here is the primary idea behind the second ideal, and in many ways the theme behind the order's ideals as a whole."

 

That is from Michael Bateman. According to the kickstarter and the livestreams, he is on Dragonsteel's staff. I don't know his title or association. Just saw his name pop up in that regard, so I believe what he says is legit. So the tag lines of each order is the basic idea of their second order 

Trutchwathcer: I will seek truth

Elsecaller: I will reach my potential

dustbringer: i will seek self mastery

and etc

Where is the comment that says that? I'm having trouble finding it.

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, ChickenLiberty said:

Where is the comment that says that? I'm having trouble finding it.

Its on the latest update showing the cover. I forget the number but it is in reply to a backer's inquiry. Pull up the page, crtl + f, and put Michael's name in and it should pop right up.

 

I edit: i would confirm which post number it was but im on my phone so it doesnt auto login to my kickstarter and have to be logged in to see the update's comments

Edited July 11, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Chiberty]

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Its on the latest update showing the cover. I forget the number but it is in reply to a backer's inquiry. Pull up the page, crtl + f, and put Michael's name in and it should pop right up.

 

I edit: i would confirm which post number it was but im on my phone so it doesnt auto login to my kickstarter and have to be logged in to see the update's comments

Ah, I see it now. It just wasn't showing up earlier because I was on mobile. 

[Pathfinder]

8 hours ago, ChickenLiberty said:

Ah, I see it now. It just wasn't showing up earlier because I was on mobile. 

No problem. Happy to help

[Karger]

12 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

No problem. Happy to help

I did see that and I do view them as semi cannon but Brandon might have reason to refine or slightly alter them so I am going to wait a bit longer.