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Quantus

Is it possible for a metal to function in only one of the Three Metallic Arts

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This is something of a shower thought.  The question came to be while reading another round of theories on Lerasium's "true" function, and it made me curious if we are even guaranteed that Lerasium has a Feruchemical function. 

By precedent I think it's very likely, since it has a confirmed function in Allomancy and Hemalurgy, and since Atium has a confirmed function in all three. My question is more whether there is a Realmic reason that a given metal HAS to function in all three?  Does the fact that Metal is the Focus of the planet force the issue? On the other hand, Leras apparently was able to manipulate metals and their function to some degree, since he apparently inserted Atium and Malatium consciously, so can one be excluded?  

EDIT:  To be clear my question is more generic than just the Lersium or God-metal cases.  The question is really just whether it is possible for one of the three Arts to have more or less metals that work with it than the rest, or if all three come as a package deal.  So as a hypothetical, can Harmony add a 17th base metal?  Could he choose to give say Silver a Hemalurgic function without Silver automatically gaining some Feruchemcial and Allomantic function at the same time?

Edited by Quantus
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19 hours ago, NysemePtem said:

I don't see any reason why Preservation couldn't make a new base metal that's only active in one Art.

He probably could in theory but it would not develop "naturally"

55 minutes ago, robardin said:

I wonder what he would see if he burned gold?

Don't we all.  I think he would get RAFOed by SR Brandon.

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@Quantus This is a super old one... 

Quote

Czanos

Does every metal have a Feruchemical and Hemalurgic property? If not, are there metals which have Feruchemical or Hemalurgic properties which do not have Allomantic ones?

Brandon Sanderson

Every metal has a Feruchemical, an Allomantic, and a Hemalurgic property. The godly metals each also do something else. There are several interesting Feruchemical powers yet to be discovered and revealed in the next series. Feruchemy is less widely understood because there were so few practitioners in the modern era, and a lot of the time they were too afraid of capture to really study and use their powers.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

But with metal being Scadrials focus, I really don't believe it's possible for a metal to only be viable in one system over the others... If it has an effect in one Metallic Art, I think it will in the others as well... With a caveat. 

Just because you have an effect doesn't mean that that effect is accessible. For example the infamous shardblade WoB. 

Quote

word_thief

What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/Plate?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shardblade is Invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen…

General Twitter 2013 (Oct. 24, 2013)

If the problem is not having a tie to the Investiture, that doesn't mean that the metal doesn't have an effect. 

For example, say a non-scadrian burns lerasium and becomes Mistborn... They have a Connection to Preservation obviously, but might not to Ruin... So can they burn atium? 

So Trellium is something we've seen used for spikes and so far that's all... And currently, I don't think Trell has Invested in Scadrial to a point to create the tie necessary in people to allow them to use it for allomancy or feruchemy. 

So functionally, yes, I think that most godmetals will be Hemalurgically viable in ways the others aren't, because unlike them, Hemalurgy requires no Spiritual component on the part of the user. Just knowledge, Intent, and the proper metal.

Mechanically though, I think that if a metal is viable in kne its viable in all, though additional hoops may be necessary to allow access to all systems. 

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As far as we know all godmetals can be used by all three.  Remember the metallic arts can be considered one magic system not three separate ones depending on how you view them.  However a shard can do basically whatever they want depending on the circumstances.  In their "natural state" I would say that they automatically work in all three.

Edited by Ookla the Prolific
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Just an on topic question:

Aren't the other metals god-metal alloys? What bout the *original* 16? Iron is able to be used under the normal metals, right? They aren't alloys of Lerasium, right?

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3 hours ago, GoWibble said:

Aren't the other metals god-metal alloys? What bout the *original* 16? Iron is able to be used under the normal metals, right? They aren't alloys of Lerasium, right?

Given that you can use metal from other planets where lerasium never existed, that's correct. We even have a WoB on iron specifically, stating that Rosharan iron works just as well as Scadrian iron for Metallic Arts purposes.

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Wow. brandon tells us something in that WoB, but he also doesn't say that Hoid actually 

Spoiler

consumed the lerasium

 

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@GoWibble Brandon has since canonized that Hoid did in fact consume the lerasium.

Quote

Truthwatcher_17.5

We know that Hoid took a bead of lerasium, but it never specifically says that he consumed it.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he did.

Questioner

Alright, so he is a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I'll go ahead and canonize that.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

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Oh. I've been working my way through the old shardcast and they only speculate that he consumed it. I'll work harder on that :D

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I don't see any reason why Preservation couldn't make a new base metal that's only active in one Art. The same could be true for Harmony - but he has to keep both powers in balance, and as we heard in Mistborn Era 2 he sees "the need for both" so while theoretically there shouldn't be anything stopping him from making a one-art metal, I wonder if he could actually bring himself to do it.

Hemalurgy is different from the other two Arts, though. It can be used by anyone, anywhere - it's possible Trellium is only Hemalurgically viable. 

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So it's confirmed that Hoid is a Lerasium Mistborn, then? We already saw him performing what seemed likely to be some kind of Allomancy while visiting Shallan's father in a WoR flashback (when he dumps some kind of powder into his own drink and consumes it, and then looking at Shallan - bronze? brass?), and now we know he can do any Allomancy?

I wonder what he would see if he burned gold?

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4 hours ago, robardin said:

So it's confirmed that Hoid is a Lerasium Mistborn, then? We already saw him performing what seemed likely to be some kind of Allomancy while visiting Shallan's father in a WoR flashback (when he dumps some kind of powder into his own drink and consumes it, and then looking at Shallan - bronze? brass?), and now we know he can do any Allomancy?

I wonder what he would see if he burned gold?

He doesn't have to be a lerasium mistborn, maybe he's a Mistborn, Soother, or Rioter.

Edit: Nevermind, I just read the WoB. 

Edited by Feruchemical Skybreaker
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The real question here is how much influence does Harmony have over the Metallic Arts. We know that Preservation was able to bump out Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium but is that the extent. If we get confirmation that Harmony is able to decrease or increase the number of metals viable in the Metallic Arts then its a safe bet that he could also change it so that some metals are exclusive to one or the other. 

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16 minutes ago, Dancer said:

The real question here is how much influence does Harmony have over the Metallic Arts. We know that Preservation was able to bump out Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium. 

Preservation was able to make it so that atium mistings existed when they normally would not, he didn't make it so the metals themselves were viable when they otherwise wouldn't be or that the bumped metal wasn't viable. Given that we know a Shard can't choose to cut someone off from their magic systems, selectively cutting metals out shouldn't be possible.

Also, Preservation bumped aluminum to make Seers possible. Note how the metal was still usable by mistborn.

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On 2/9/2020 at 1:04 AM, Calderis said:

@Quantus This is a super old one... 

But with metal being Scadrials focus, I really don't believe it's possible for a metal to only be viable in one system over the others... If it has an effect in one Metallic Art, I think it will in the others as well... With a caveat. 

Just because you have an effect doesn't mean that that effect is accessible. For example the infamous shardblade WoB. 

If the problem is not having a tie to the Investiture, that doesn't mean that the metal doesn't have an effect. 

For example, say a non-scadrian burns lerasium and becomes Mistborn... They have a Connection to Preservation obviously, but might not to Ruin... So can they burn atium? 

So Trellium is something we've seen used for spikes and so far that's all... And currently, I don't think Trell has Invested in Scadrial to a point to create the tie necessary in people to allow them to use it for allomancy or feruchemy. 

So functionally, yes, I think that most godmetals will be Hemalurgically viable in ways the others aren't, because unlike them, Hemalurgy requires no Spiritual component on the part of the user. Just knowledge, Intent, and the proper metal.

Mechanically though, I think that if a metal is viable in kne its viable in all, though additional hoops may be necessary to allow access to all systems. 

Old but directly answers it I think. There will still be some shenanigans with the God-metals ("All God-metals each also do something else"?!?). 

The case of Aitum I think a non-native would be able to use it once their sDNA had the allomantic bits, on the logic that Atium (uniquely) doesnt actually require the same Conduit to Preservation and is fueled by the physical god-metal Investiture itself. 

 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Atium's Mechanism

Atium is, indeed, different from the other metals. When you burn most Allomantic metals, it opens a conduit through which you can draw upon Preservation's power and use it in very specific ways.

Atium doesn't do that. Atium is, itself, a fuel. When you burn it, the metal itself provides the power. A subtle distinction, I know, but it has to do with where the power is coming from. Most Allomancy is fueled by Preservation, but atium and malatium are fueled by Ruin.

This metal doesn't quite belong on the table where it has been placed.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 1, 2010)

 

 

 

So, while we're on the topic, if the Godly metals each "also" do something else, what could that be?  Atium grants access to a Fortune effect and direct glimpse of the Spiritual when flaired, is that it's additional ability over it's "normal" uses?  Is this referring to Lerasium's supposed ability to hack a person's spiritweb into other magics?

 

 
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38 minutes ago, Quantus said:

The case of Aitum I think a non-native would be able to use it once their sDNA had the allomantic bits, on the logic that Atium (uniquely) doesnt actually require the same Conduit to Preservation and is fueled by the physical god-metal Investiture itself. 

That's actually specifically why I think they couldn't. I think any godmetal is going to work that way and just as with the shardblade scenario, no direct tie to Ruin would mean no ability to access the Investiture.

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

That's actually specifically why I think they couldn't. I think any godmetal is going to work that way and just as with the shardblade scenario, no direct tie to Ruin would mean no ability to access the Investiture.

Oh, ya I see your point, and in that light I tend to agree.  So natural the follow-up question is what sort of Connection would be required, and how might one achieve it.  Would a Connection to Scadrial alone do it (hemalurgic or feruchemical), as opposed to full Nicrosil MEdallion that sidesteps the whole question? Would it require a more permanent ReWiring of the spiritweb (aka like the theoretical Bavadinium/Lerasium alloy case)?  Would you simply have to awaken some sort of Ruinous Investiture within yourself, and not need an specifically Scadrian Connection? Might utilizing Hemalurgy on yourself provide enough Invested Ruin in your spiritweb?

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

That's actually specifically why I think they couldn't. I think any godmetal is going to work that way and just as with the shardblade scenario, no direct tie to Ruin would mean no ability to access the Investiture.

Interesting... In this interpretation, then, a non-Scadrian lerasium Mistborn, such as Hoid, would not be able to burn atium? Based on the comment that even a full Mistborn such as Vin could not burn a piece of Rosharan Shardplate, if ingested, because it was Invested with an inaccessible (for Vin) kind of Investiture.  Which would then also mean, accessing godmetal powers via the Metallic Arts would require Connection with those Shards.

Native Scadrial Mistborn = has some Ruin in them = can burn all metals accessible by the Metallic Arts, plus godmetals they're connected to, including atium

Native Scadrial Seer (atium Misting) = only existed because Preservation put it on the "Table of Metallic Arts" that spun out 16 versions of Allomancers (Mistborn not being "natural", requiring lerasium or similarly direct act of the power of Preservation upon someone, if only in one's ancestry)

Non-native Mistborn (e.g., Hoid) = no Connection to Ruin, cannot burn atium

What would this imply for Bleeder's ability to use presumed "trellium" spikes for hemalurgy?

Edited by robardin
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