Firebolt-101

Possible Foreshadowing of Odium's Defeat?? (Oathbringer Spoilers)

25 posts in this topic

So while this could be nothing, I was looking through some discussions about stormlight 4 and I started to connect some dots. While it is not confirmed, a lot of the fandom- and myself- believe Hesina, Kaladin's mother, to be originally from Kharbranth. If this is true, we known from the end of Oathbringer that all those who were born in Kharbranth and their spouses will be spared from Odium. We also know that Odium is bound by his word and so he must follow this deal he struck with Taravangian. While I've seen quite a few people saying this deal will end up being bad for Taravangian and that Odium ultimately got the better deal, I think this deal is what will bring about Odium's downfall, not Taravangian's.

Now I should say this having any sort of possibility weighs heavily on Hesina being born in Kharbranth, but under the assumption that she is then this means that Lirin is spared by association. And yet, even with this deal potentially protecting him, much of the fanbase believes Lirin will die in Stormlight 4. This is where I think Odium trips himself up. If Lirin were to die as a result of Odium- so be singers, listeners, or corrupted spren- the deal between Odium and Taravangian will immediately become void. And while we don't necessarily know what happens when a shard's word is broken, it is my personal headcanon that a big part of the process for Honor being shattered was that he in some way broke his word. 

While obviously this has a lot holes in it, I just wanted to point it out as I've been seeing a lot of people talking about the Kharbranth deal and whether or not Lirin will die in the next book.

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I'm not sold on your why but I do think then end of arc 5 will end with Odium shattered with nobody holding it.

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18 minutes ago, garlick said:

I'm not sold on your why but I do think then end of arc 5 will end with Odium shattered with nobody holding it.

That could be even worse because then it could create massive amounts of Voidspren, and who knows what it would do to the Unmade to just have that much Odious Investiture lying around.

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I've thought along similar lines about oathbreaking and shard-death. That's why Radiant-spren are "killed" when the Radiants break their oaths; the nahel bond makes the human and the spren into one being, so when the human betrays the ideals that their spren represents, that's the same as the spren betraying its own essence, becoming its opposite and cancelling itself out. I don't think it's a stretch to think that a shard might be killed or splintered in a similar (albeit larger) method.

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6 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

I've thought along similar lines about oathbreaking and shard-death. That's why Radiant-spren are "killed" when the Radiants break their oaths; the nahel bond makes the human and the spren into one being, so when the human betrays the ideals that their spren represents, that's the same as the spren betraying its own essence, becoming its opposite and cancelling itself out. I don't think it's a stretch to think that a shard might be killed or splintered in a similar (albeit larger) method.

This could also be due to the sprens relations to the shards (like Syl being an honorspren- a spren of honor). The spren "dying" because of broken oaths could be.... I guess the word would be "inherited" from the shards? And with how it looks like the spren can be reawakened, maybe that's a sign that shards can be reformed after being shatterd?

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That's the scary part about fighting Odium, you have to truly defeat him and heal the rift of hatred between humans & Singers, contending with the Fused & the Thunderclast, the Voidspren would still be there presumably also capable of Bonding in some manner, the Unmade would have to be dealt with separately. Just killing the current Vessel wouldn't be enough and this Vessel has a lot of experience in killing gods

Edited by Honorless
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8 hours ago, Firebolt-101 said:

So while this could be nothing, I was looking through some discussions about stormlight 4 and I started to connect some dots. While it is not confirmed, a lot of the fandom- and myself- believe Hesina, Kaladin's mother, to be originally from Kharbranth. If this is true, we known from the end of Oathbringer that all those who were born in Kharbranth and their spouses will be spared from Odium. We also know that Odium is bound by his word and so he must follow this deal he struck with Taravangian.

By that logic he has already broken his word. That nobody born in Kharbranth died during the battles of Thaylen Fields and Kholinar alone is statistically implausible. It seems to me tht the deal applies to the people residing in Kharbranth.

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

By that logic he has already broken his word. That nobody born in Kharbranth died during the battles of Thaylen Fields and Kholinar alone is statistically implausible. It seems to me tht the deal applies to the people residing in Kharbranth.

All of those events happened Before the deal so I don't think they have any bearing 

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I am not sure that Odium's word would be broken if a Kharbranthian is killed by a fused acting under their own initiative while engaging a separate matter far from the city.  Remember Odium keeps what he sees as the spirit of the contract.  As to what would happen.  Probably nothing.  Odium can't consciously break his word but that does not mean he if something else happens that he is not responsible for that he will bear any consequences.

Edited by Ookla the Prolific
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I don’t think that the protection applies to someone from Kharbranth who actively works against odium’s interests. 

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On 2020-01-14 at 9:39 PM, garlick said:

I'm not sold on your why but I do think then end of arc 5 will end with Odium shattered with nobody holding it.

That seems to close to other Brandon plots. My money is that Roshar goes boom and we see a massive Cosmere refugee crisis. Nalthis Customs, anyone? 

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18 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

That seems to close to other Brandon plots. My money is that Roshar goes boom and we see a massive Cosmere refugee crisis. Nalthis Customs, anyone? 

I too subscribe to that theory! But I always saw it happening during or after Book 10. The second arc we find out more about the Heralds, and that's supposed to point us in the direction of how to leave the planet and where to go next. 

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12 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

I too subscribe to that theory! But I always saw it happening during or after Book 10. The second arc we find out more about the Heralds, and that's supposed to point us in the direction of how to leave the planet and where to go next. 

I agree that Book 10 is the more likely choice for the Roshar destruction, but I fear that if it happens in Book 10 we won't really get to see the ramifications in the ways I would like. I would love to see Jasnah dealing with the Court of the Gods as she pleads for her people to be let in spite their 0/2 planet history. 

I want the Heralds to be viewpoints into how the last refugee crisis went, and to act as a foil/echo of what the new Radiants try to barter for when they flood Nalthis customs. 

I did a degree focussing on war-ethics, and my job is dealing with refugee resettlement and education in Canada, so I have quite invested in seeing how Brandon handles the series themes of displacement, loss, and transition. I've also got an MEd on training non-literate refugee adults to read and write for the first time, so I am also curious about how a shift in writing culture/norms would work in this post-Roshar age. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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4 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I did a degree focussing on war-ethics, and my job is dealing with refugee resettlement and education in Canada, so I have quite invested in seeing how Brandon handles the series themes of displacement, loss, and transition. I've also got an MEd on training non-literate refugee adults to read and write for the first time, so I am also curious about how a shift in writing culture/norms would work in this post-Roshar age. 

We know that refugees are a thing that the CR on Roshar actually has some experience with Captaion Ico mentions them.

However I don't think a mass resentment of the majority of Roshar's population is possible.  Accessible perpendicularities tend to be in remote locations so the this would likely involve a planetary die off of the majority of the population.  Also why is Nalthis the only place we are letting these refugees settle?  I know that scadrail is not a possibility(we have seen post book 10 scadrail) but there are other planets in the cosmere and some have stable perpendicularites.  I personally hope that we get a mass invasion of Braize at some point. 

Edited by Karger
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50 minutes ago, Karger said:

We know that refugees are a thing that the CR on Roshar actually has some experience with Captaion Ico mentions them.

  Also why is Nalthis the only place we are letting these refugees settle?  

Nalthis is the closest planet in the cognitive realm, and we have two politically important Nalthians as potential sponsors for the resettlement. I agree other planets are possible, but we have three data points (a customs agency in Nalthis, closest location, and prevalent worldhoppers) pointing towards Nalthis. People still need to eat in the Cognitive realm, so they will need aid fairly quickly. I can see Nalthis turning into Turkey and having massive refugee camps all along the border with other planets being unsure if they should let the people of Odium into their worlds (considering what happened the last two times).

We also have a WoB saying Warbreaker is a necessary prequel for Stormlight, and I don't think what we have in the plot so far is enough to justify that. In this exodus some people might go elsewhere in the cosmere, but the bulk  would go to Nalthis; think Syrians crossing the sea and ending up in Europe. 

And yes, usually those better off manage to be the first-wave refugees. Rarely do the poorest get out first, so maybe only the Alethi get out and certain races/peoples are exterminated. We also have a confounding issue regarding if spren will be able to leave with the people, or if oaths will be broken again in order to flee. Maybe Bondsmiths can open perpendicularities now, or maybe new fabrials are an option; or maybe only 50,000 get out and we get a Battlestar Galactica thing going on. Who knows? It will be a mess, but Roshar has always been a mess. 

Stormlight's main theme seems to concern what happens when people are displaced (Singers, Listeners, Ashynites, Horneaters, Dysians, Iriali, Natans, Tower-people, Radiants, Alethi, etc etc) and I have hard time thinking that all this thematic build-up won't end with the cycle repeating itself but on a much larger scale. 

 

Other Plot Convergences

1) the Iriali believe they are on a long trail going from planet (singular) to planet (singular), so a sigular port of entry seems even more likely.  Unless the Iriali we have chose to stay in the past and way back when there already was an Iriali exodus, then we have a plot point saying something must happen to make that entire country want to leave when the invasion wasn't enough to do that so far. They might even have their own Old Magic from before that helps them Worldhop? Who knows?

2)  Spoiler for Stormlight 4 Prologue 

Spoiler

The heralds have been researching how to teleport off-world for a decade, and can already get as far as Braize. Those Heralds are glued to Roshar, but could other people teleport further? Even if not, we have time for that to be worked out. In world, research on leaving Roshar is a plot point, and that likely will go somewhere.



 

Edited by teknopathetic
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30 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Nalthis is the closest planet in the cognitive realm

Braize and Ashyn are both closer.  (Is Vorinism correct?  Has mankind gotten virtuous enough to return to the tranquiline halls?)

30 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

We also have a WoB saying Warbreaker is a necessary prequel for Stormlight, and I don't think what we have in the plot so far is enough to justify that

It is Nightblood's origin story.

30 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

We also have a confounding issue regarding if spren will be able to leave with the people, or if oaths will be broken again in order to flee

Spren are locked to Roshar.  They can't leave the system at all.  Same for Heralds.

30 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Stormlight's main theme seems to concern what happens when people are displaced (Singers, Listeners, Ashynites, Horneaters, Dysians, Iriali, Natans, Tower-people, Radiants, Alethi, etc etc) and I have hard time thinking that all this thematic build-up won't end with the cycle repeating itself but on a much larger scale. 

I hope not for the sake of the Rosharan people. 

There are also more mundane concerns for resettlement of Rosharans.  Roshar has a higher oxegen content and lower gravity then any other planet.  I see this leading to a lot of health problems.  Much more dangerously the common cold was introduced to Roshar it is currently causing an plague epidemic.  Roshar's free investature makes its people more long lived and resilient against diseases.  Imagine what it will be if they get to the tropical part of Nalthis which is where the perpendicularity is located.

Edited by Karger
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26 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

or maybe only 50,000 get out and we get a Battlestar Galactica thing going on. Who knows? It will be a mess, but Roshar has always been a mess. 

Battlestorm Galactica. I mean, Dalinar and Adama would get along very well...too well (heck, if Edward James Olmos was a decade or two younger, he'd be all but PERFECT as Dalinar). And if Apollo and Adolin (and you can add in Rob Stark for good measure if you want) don't have a conversation about their honorable, more-than-slightly overbearing fathers, I'd flip a table. 

Yeah, now I REALLY want to see this (the migration. And the crossover). 

 

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Spren are locked to Roshar.  They can't leave the system at all.  Same for Heralds.

As of right now. But the Heralds have been actively looking for a way to escape, and that's DEFINITELY going to play a giant part. And now Hoid's a Radiant, and we know he's going to escape. So that either means that Hoid finds a way to undo the Nahel Bond without hurting his spren, Hoid kills his spren and takes it off-world, or Hoid finds a way off-world. Now whether Hoid tells other people about this is a separate conundrum. 

 

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Braize and Ashyn are both closer.  (Is Vorinism correct?  Has mankind gotten virtuous enough to return to the tranquiline halls?)

If Braize is where the Heralds are sent after each Desolation, I don't think anyone will want to go there. And as for Ashyn - to bring back Battlestar Galactica:

Spoiler

It could be an interesting plot point that Ashyn IS the first destination they try to go to, only to find it destroyed and not capable of fitting the needs of the now refugees. And the next best place after that would be Nalthis. 

 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

There are also more mundane concerns for resettlement of Rosharans.  Roshar has a higher oxegen content and lower gravity then any other planet.  I see this leading to a lot of health problems.  Much more dangerously the common cold was introduced to Roshar it is currently causing an plague epidemic.  Roshar's free investature makes its people more long lived and resilient against diseases.  Imagine what it will be if they get to the tropical part of Nalthis which is where the perpendicularity is located.

You're right, these are problems. And these are problems that might be interesting to be explored, if not in secondary or tertiary arcs, then in interludes. 

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

Braize and Ashyn are both closer.  (Is Vorinism correct?  Has mankind gotten virtuous enough to return to the tranquiline halls?)

It is Nightblood's origin story.

Spren are locked to Roshar.  They can't leave the system at all.  Same for Heralds.

I hope not for the sake of the Rosharan people. 

There are also more mundane concerns for resettlement of Rosharans.  Roshar has a higher oxegen content and lower gravity then any other planet.  I see this leading to a lot of health problems.  Much more dangerously the common cold was introduced to Roshar it is currently causing an plague epidemic.  Roshar's free investature makes its people more long lived and resilient against diseases.  Imagine what it will be if they get to the tropical part of Nalthis which is where the perpendicularity is located.

Braize and Ashyn are not hospitable. if Odium wins, I doubt those worlds get any better. 

I am aware that spren are locked, but if the planet is going down maybe they will get a chance to leave? Or they really, really won't.

Nightblood is from Nalthis, but I feel like we could have been told there were other planets and he was a mutant version, and that would be fine. Why do we even need him to be from Nalthis? What's the point  of mixing the two world together? "I need a sword" could have been done in a lot of ways, and so far making Nalthis creep into the book hasn't been enough to justify Nightblood's foreign backstory. 

Disease is a pretty real-world reality in refugee camps. Having the people develop health issues would be true to form. Perhaps their children would receive breath and those children would acclimate better in turn. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

If Braize is where the Heralds are sent after each Desolation, I don't think anyone will want to go there

I kind of want to go there.  Also I am not sure that the spirits can hurt people who still have a physical body the way that humans do and Heralds don't.

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Braize and Ashyn are not hospitable. if Odium wins, I doubt those worlds get any better. 

Ashyn has floating cities that are hospitable and considering the limited number of people you are actually likely to evacuate they might be enough.

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Nightblood is from Nalthis, but I feel like we could have been told there were other planets and he was a mutant version, and that would be fine. Why do we even need him to be from Nalthis? What's the point  of mixing the two world together? "I need a sword" could have been done in a lot of ways, and so far making Nalthis creep into the book hasn't

Quote
Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)
#4 Share Copy
...

Questioner

But a Shardblade wouldn't shear through Nightblood.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes a Shardblade would not shear through Nightblood. In fact I wrote Way of Kings first and then I wrote Warbreaker and Way of Kings came out after Warbreaker but in my mind Warbreaker is a prequel to Way of Kings, where I was telling Vasher's backstory.

been enough to justify Nightblood's foreign backstory. 

Quote
/r/books AMA 2015 (July 19, 2015)
#6 July 19, 2015 Share Copy
 
 

platysaur

Well Mr. Sanderson, I finally finished Words of Radiance as well. I thank you for answering previous questions of mine on this thread.

I didn't read Warbreaker but I intend to. That said, if I don't get to it (college is quickly approaching now), will it be a setback? I know that Szeth's sword is now a character from Warbreaker, but I don't want to be at a disadvantage if I can't get to it.

Brandon Sanderson

If you don't read Warbreaker, I doubt you'll be confused. I wrote Warbreaker as a prequel novel (after writing the original draft of The Way of Kings) to give some backstory to side characters I knew where cosmere-aware, but the story should work just fine without having read it.

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Disease is a pretty real-world reality in refugee camps.

Yeah but not on this scale.  Rosharans have no inoculations or natural resistances think "discovery" of america bringing smallpox but worse.

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

.

Yeah but not on this scale.  Rosharans have no inoculations or natural resistances think "discovery" of america bringing smallpox but worse.

Over 80 tribes of Native American people were eradicated by disease, starvation, war, murder;  so I would say probably similar levels would happen with Rosharians (maybe less if their kids get the benefits of breath). 

Edited by teknopathetic
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27 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Over 80 tribes of Native American people were eradicated by disease, starvation, war, murder;  so I would say probably similar levels would happen with Rosharians (maybe less if their kids get the benefits of breath). 

And those aforementioned native peoples did have some history with diseases and did not have to simultaneously deal with issues that threaten refugee populations(poor living conditions and sanitation).  Additionally they will be in a much nastier environment to the one they are used to (higher g force and lower oxygen content) that will exacerbate any existing medical conditions.  I do not see a nalthian refugee population surviving in any significant numbers.

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11 hours ago, Karger said:

I kind of want to go there.

I'm sure we will, but I'm saying that it probably isn't a good choice for refugees. 

 

11 hours ago, Karger said:

Also I am not sure that the spirits can hurt people who still have a physical body the way that humans do and Heralds don't.

But in Secret History

Spoiler

Didn't Kelsier punch Hoid, and Hoid felt it? If I'm remembering that correctly, then spirits CAN hurt people who still have a physical body. Oh! And what about the Shades on Threnody? If those types of cognitive creatures can hurt humans in the physical realm, I'm sure they can do the same in the cognitive realm. 

11 hours ago, Karger said:

Ashyn has floating cities that are hospitable and considering the limited number of people you are actually likely to evacuate they might be enough.

Do they currently? I thought Silence Divine was set in the future of the Cosmere (never mind; as of the Skyward signing in Seattle it takes place around Book 8, so closer than I though). Then again, given Ashyn's magic system might make it worse for Rosharans. The common cold is a pandemic on Roshar; on Ashyn it'll most likely be fairly regular.

9 hours ago, Karger said:

I do not see a nalthian refugee population surviving in any significant numbers.

Actually...what if they DO stop off at Ashyn for a bit? Ashyn has remnants of how surges worked before, right? And you have the whole sickness magic system. So what if they stop by Ashyn to learn about that magic system and then bring it over to Nalthis? It'd be interesting to see the Silence Divine novella worked into the Cosmere via an interlude (although I don't think this would happen as of now, if only due to the technology levels required. The Silence Divine sounds like it has a higher tech level than Roshar's roughly Enlightenment era tech.

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43 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

But in Secret History

They were both in the CR at the time.  I am not sure a spren can really hurt someone in the physical realm.

44 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

The common cold is a pandemic on Roshar; on Ashyn it'll most likely be fairly regular.

I am not sure they let just anyone get the common cold on Ashyn.

45 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Actually...what if they DO stop off at Ashyn for a bit? Ashyn has remnants of how surges worked before, right? And you have the whole sickness magic system. So what if they stop by Ashyn to learn about that magic system and then bring it over to Nalthis? It'd be interesting to see the Silence Divine novella worked into the Cosmere via an interlude (although I don't think this would happen as of now, if only due to the technology levels required. The Silence Divine sounds like it has a higher tech level than Roshar's roughly Enlightenment era tech.

This would be much more interesting in my view.

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5 hours ago, Karger said:

They were both in the CR at the time.  I am not sure a spren can really hurt someone in the physical realm.

True, but do you think, if there is a great migration/refugee crisis, that they will be travelling to Ashyn and/or other planets by space or by the cognitive realm?

5 hours ago, Karger said:

I am not sure they let just anyone get the common cold on Ashyn.

I'm not sure they'd have a way to truly control it. But either way, we don't know enough about Ashyn to truly say anything.

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2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

True, but do you think, if there is a great migration/refugee crisis, that they will be travelling to Ashyn and/or other planets by space or by the cognitive realm?

The journey would be dangerous but I have no idea about Braize itself. 

2 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

I'm not sure they'd have a way to truly control it. But either way, we don't know enough about Ashyn to truly say anything.

My point was that they would almost certainly have a very good understanding of the germ theory of disease and sanitation.

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