Spaceferring

[Theory] Liss = Shalash?

20 posts in this topic

Just something that came in my mind a few minutes ago. Was this idea already suggested and/or refuted?

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I think the common theory is that Liss is Chanarach, not Shalash. This is mostly based on the fact that Chanarach was known as the Guard, and Liss, as an assassin, is an inversion of that.

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Additionally the descriptions of Ash and Liss do not seem particularly compatible in both attitude and physicality.

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I don't think that they are the same person but they are similar in the way that they both have a thing with gouging out eyes. Except Liss does it to hide the fact that she uses a shardblade or at least that's what Jasnah believes and I am inclined to agree with her. Shalash is obsessed with destroying all depictions of the Heralds and gouges out the eyes of statues or paintings with the Heralds in it but I don't think that there is a time where it is shown that she does that to the people she kills as well. They are similar but not the same person.

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Also,

Spoiler

 

Ash is at Urithiru, right? 

Jasnah is going to notice soon, if not already

 

 

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20 hours ago, StormlightNerd said:

and gouges out the eyes of statues or paintings with the Heralds

Does Ash specifically do this with the eyes? I thought she just destroyed them in a more general manner, e.g. breaking statues and slashing paintings.

Regardless, if Liss is a Herald, I don't think she's Ash. Didn't Jasnah and Szeth see Ash in Oathbringer on the battlefiled? Either one could have recognized Liss (with Jasnah being the more likely).

To clarify, Jasnah and Szeth have both dealt with Liss (Jasnah as a hired assassin, Szeth has his one time master). If Liss were Ash, then either could have recognized her in Oathbringer.

Edited by Govir
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1 hour ago, Govir said:

Does Ash specifically do this with the eyes? I thought she just destroyed them in a more general manner, e.g. breaking statues and slashing paintings.

She has been known to destroy eyes(eyes are on of her divine symbols culturally in Vorin lands).

1 hour ago, Govir said:

Didn't Jasnah and Szeth see Ash in Oathbringer on the battlefiled?

Szeth does not know who Ash is.  He has to the best of our knowledge never met her.

@Govir  If Liss is a Herald at all Jasnah knows as she has seen pictures of all of them.

Edited by Ookla the Prolific
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30 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

She has been known to destroy eyes(eyes are on of her divine symbols culturally in Vorin lands).

In every instance I can think of she destroyed the entire face, not just the eyes.  Can you point to an eyes-only example?

Quote

Szeth does not know who Ash is.  He has to the best of our knowledge never met her.

If Liss is a Herald at all Jasnah knows as she has seen pictures of all of them.

I think @Govir's point was that Szeth saw Ash at the end of OB, and would have recognized her as Liss (whom he served shortly before the Singer's got him). Though to your point, even if he didnt notice, Jasnah was given that Drawing of Shallash by Hoid and she recognized it as outing her Herald-ness.  If she'd had a pre-existing relationship with Jasnah, that scene wouldnt make near as much logical sense.  

Edited by Quantus
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1 minute ago, Quantus said:

In every instance I can think of she destroyed the entire face, not just the eyes.  Can you point to an eyes-only example?

Didn't she scratch out the eyes of one of those paintings in Azir? 

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8 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Didn't she scratch out the eyes of one of those paintings in Azir? 

Nope, she "took a knife from her bundle and slashed the painting down the front" then she went to work on the face of a statue with a mallet. 

Useful tidbit in that scene though: Her men describe her aslways wearing a thin sword on her hip, and she mentions that "Perhaps I should get myself a Shardblade, [...] But it might make this too easy."  She doesnt seem to care about her Muscle's opinions enough to actively lie about it, so I think that all but confirms that she doesnt have a Shardblade like Liss does.  

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8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Nope, she "took a knife from her bundle and slashed the painting down the front" then she went to work on the face of a statue with a mallet. 

That was in Emul.

Edited by Ookla the Prolific
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14 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

That was in Emul.

Ah, you're right.  There wasnt a painting at all in Azir that I can find, though there was a bronze statue that Lift noticed had had it's whole face destroyed.  As far as I recall (also what's included in the Coppermind) is the bronze statue in Azir (destroyed face), the painting in Emul (destroyed completely), the statue at the same place (destroyed face) and the painting that Mraize used as bait, which they said she "attacked" and "destroyed" with a knife but dont actually specify which specific parts (or all).  

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3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

There wasnt a painting at all in Azir that I can find

Check WoR Lift's interlude.  She mentions that one of the Heralds had missing eyes specifically if I remember correctly.

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Regardless, Ash usually destroys the face or the whole object, not just the eyes. So she doesn't have a propensity for eyes. Also, Shalash doesn't have a Shardblade (she mentions this in the Baxil interlude), and Liss obviously does. In addition, their physical descriptions don't match.

Liss:

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Long dark hair, worn loose, and a plump, attractive figure made her distinctive in all the right ways.

Shalash:

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She wasn’t Emuli–she didn’t even seem Makabaki, though she had dark skin and long, beautiful black hair. She had eyes like a Shin, but she was tall and lean, like an Alethi.

So Liss is plump and, given the lack of mention of her eyes, has the typical epicanthic fold. She has dark hair, but it's not stated to be black like an Alethi.

Shalash is tall and lean, with Shin eyes. They are clearly different people.

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6 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Check WoR Lift's interlude.  She mentions that one of the Heralds had missing eyes specifically if I remember correctly.

Ah, found it.  Nope, that one is the whole face too. 

Quote

"Paintings on the walls.  Huh, Lift thought, someone scratched a face off of that one.  Who'd ruin a painting like that, and such a fine one, the Heralds all in a row?" (WoR, I-9 Lift)

 

I really dont think there were any instances of Eyes-only with her.  And like @RShara pointed out the physical descriptions dont match, and Shalash doesnt have a Shardblade.  

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20 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I really dont think there were any instances of Eyes-only with her.  And like

Oh well.  I still do not think that Ash and Liss are the same person.

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I believe the Liss and Ash are two different people . However even though Liss knows  Jasnah , I have a observation . For the sake of argument Let’s say Liss is a Herald . And she is known to Jasnah . Can she not change her appearance at will ? At the Time of Jezrien death by Moash . Jezrian appeared as and old spinely beggar . Other descriptions of him do not match this image . So the theory is he perceived himself as old and frail so appearance changed to reflect this . While Ash still look as youthful as always . So the Heralds probably have an ability similar to the Returned on Nalthis and can change thier appearance depending how they see themselves . So Liss could be right next to Jasnah and change her appearance and kind of use that as a disguise if she wants to see herself  as youthful and or elderly if she chose .... just a thought . Has anyone else considered this !!!

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I believe the Liss and Ash are two different people . However even though Liss knows  Jasnah , I have a observation . For the sake of argument Let’s say Liss is a Herald . And she is known to Jasnah . Can she not change her appearance at will ? At the Time of Jezrien death by Moash . Jezrian appeared as and old spinely beggar . Other descriptions of him do not match this image . So the theory is he perceived himself as old and frail so appearance changed to reflect this . While Ash still look as youthful as always . So the Heralds probably have an ability similar to the Returned on Nalthis and can change thier appearance depending how they see themselves . So Liss could be right next to Jasnah and change her appearance and kind of use that as a disguise if she wants to see herself  as youthful and or elderly if she chose .... just a thought . Has anyone else considered this !!!

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5 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I believe the Liss and Ash are two different people . However even though Liss knows  Jasnah , I have a observation . For the sake of argument Let’s say Liss is a Herald . And she is known to Jasnah . Can she not change her appearance at will ? At the Time of Jezrien death by Moash . Jezrian appeared as and old spinely beggar . Other descriptions of him do not match this image . So the theory is he perceived himself as old and frail so appearance changed to reflect this . While Ash still look as youthful as always . So the Heralds probably have an ability similar to the Returned on Nalthis and can change thier appearance depending how they see themselves . So Liss could be right next to Jasnah and change her appearance and kind of use that as a disguise if she wants to see herself  as youthful and or elderly if she chose .... just a thought . Has anyone else considered this !!!

I don't believe he looked old because he outwardly changed his appearance.  I think that had to do more with how he didn't care for himself (being blitzed constantly, always covered in grime and nastiness) and that gave him a more aged appearance.  Books use that as a device a lot, someone living on the street and dirty looks far older than they are really, and being drunk all the time would start to give one a more wizened and sunken look.

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Ash's eyes! 

Yeah, Liss could be Ash, but I don't think so. She doesn't have her Honorblade (as far as we know) so she can't use Lightweaving because she isn't Nale. 

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