What is a "Dead God?"

[Lightspine]

(Sorry if this thread has already begun elsewhere and I just haven't spotted it since I didn't see this WoB until now)

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Give me a random piece of Cosmere/Investiture related info.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is a planet with the corpse of a dead god on it.

American Fork High School Signing (Dec. 12, 2019)

So, my first thought upon seeing this WoB was that it was something like Sel?? You could construe the Dor to be the "corpse" of two shards. However, it's in the coginitive realm and I'm not sure if that counts as "on" the planet. Furthermore, Brandon seems to refer to *a* god and not two, so the Dor doesn't quite fit.

Thinking about more planets which we actually know, could one say that Roshar has Honor's corpse? I would call cognitive shadows "ghosts" rather than corpses, so the Stormfather doesn't fit the definition for me, but maybe from a different interpretation it does. Or just all the investure he left behind could count.

Next up, Threnody? Bits of Ambition landed on here after they died right? I'd say this is the most probably option out of the planets that we know to be what Brandon is referring to here.

Of course, Brandon is likely to be talking about a planet which we don't know, so either there's been some more shard deaths and one of them left behind some sort of corpse or:

I automatically assumed that "god" means "shard" but what if he's referring to Adonalsium? Is his "corpse" somehow lying around on a planet (maybe Yolen?)? What would his corpse be? His investure is now the shards so there's no Dor situation going on wherever he died (probably), but does this mean he had a body in the physical realm? Sort of like Vin's and Ati's bodies appearing after they died? A cognitive shadow (though, as I said, I wouldn't call this a corpse)?

Seriously, does anybody have a good idea about what Brandon is referring to here? My bet is on Threnody or a brand new planet. 

[Elsecaller_17.5]

The easiest (read laziest) answer is that a vessel has died there but I don't think Brandon would do that to us.

My thought is Roshar. Shardblade are referred to as spren corpses by Syl so maybe Honor's/a god's corpse is a combination of the Honorblades? Dawnshard? 

I'd leer away from Sel. The problem is all the investure is in the cognitive instead of the spiritual, i.e. not the physical.

If it's not Roshar, Threnody does have the right feel. First of the Sun too.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Truthwatcher_17.5

[GoWibble]

15 minutes ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

My thought is Roshar. Shardblade are referred to as spren corpses by Syl so maybe Honor's/a god's corpse is a combination of the Honorblades?

"Honor is dead, but I'll see what I can do"

- Kaladin

 

 

Just had to include that. 

I think that there *might* be a new world, but I kind of want to see a new Shard dead on Scadrial or Roshar or something. 

Come to think about it, Scadrial might be a good example:

Spoiler

The Lord Ruler is dead...

 

[RShara]

Depends on what definition of "god" Brandon is referring to here. Returned are considered gods. Patji is considered a god, as are the other islands. So are the Reshi Isles. Honor was a god. So it could mean bodies of Returned, bodies of Vessels, bodies of greatshells...any number of things. Without that definition, it's basically impossible to say how significant this WoB is.

[SirWolfe]

I think it means that the planet still has the corpse of a former Vessel on it, which remains in a recognizable state. So, I wouldn't say that Preservation's corpse is currently on Scadrial, even if his body did end up dropping into the Physical after his death, because it decomposed, and stopped being his body and started being dirt after a while ("Be dirt." "I am a Corpse" "But you could be dirt." "I am a Corpse!"). So I think that it might be that the corpse of a former Vessel can be found on whichever planet this is, preserved and possibly kept in a temple or something. 

[Karger]

I think he is referring to Threnody based on the wording.  Khriss's essay states that a chunk of her got pulled off and landed on the planet during her battle with Odium.

[SirWolfe]

17 minutes ago, RShara said:

Patji is considered a god, as are the other islands. 

Well, Patji is a literal god, as he is an Avatar of Autonomy.

[RShara]

Just now, SirWolfe said:

Well, Patji is a literal god, as he is an Avatar of Autonomy.

Depends on your definition of god

[Honorless]

This probably refers to Yolen. In The Liar of Partinel, this phrase is used a lot. 

[Aon Tia]

I like the idea of it being Adonalsium’s corpse on Yolen.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

I think he is referring to Threnody based on the wording.  Khriss's essay states that a chunk of her got pulled off and landed on the planet during her battle with Odium.

Ambition was actually splintered far away from Threnody . In the preface of that story in AU , he says the Battle began in the area around Threnody but it ended in Space a distance away so I don’t think that’s it ....

       On Scadrial  Atium was the body of Ruin . The well of ascension , the mist , and Lerasium was the body of Preservation ( in all three forms gas, liquid , and solid) so I guess we need to know what he means by body as well .

  I don’t think we have seen anything on Roshar that could be considered Honor’s Corpse. 

      So I’m go with Adonalsium on Yolen until we see more . As far as we know he didn’t have a vessel , so as powerful as he was I would think something would be left behind other than the shards. Interesting question tho !!

[Honorless]

I went looking for any instances of Hoid using this phrase in canon, he does in Warbreaker: "It was a distant place where two lands meet and gods have died"  when Siri asked him where he learned his storytelling.

[Elegy]

Brandon has previously implied that the island Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium:

Quote

Yurisses

Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it is. That one is even closer associated with a Shard, the actual Investiture of the magic. Remember when I say Investiture, I mean matter, energy and magic. Sometimes the word Investiture refers just to the magic such as the Aviar and in that it is associated directly with one of the Shards...

Yurisses

Which one?

Brandon Sanderson

Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium. *silence*

Overlord Jebus

Sorry, can you say that again?

Brandon Sanderson

Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium.

Aurimus

Is that one of the Aviar?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Patji is the island.

Overlord Jebus

Island or islands?

Brandon Sanderson

The island but Patji is one of the islands.

Yurisses

It's a Shard?!

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, big asterisk! But yes.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

I always glanced over that and I still believe it's likely that it's not meant in a literal way, but the more I think about it, the more it seems like a possibility at least. Maybe Patji was something comparable to a greatshell and the island is its corpse.

[Honorless]

4 minutes ago, Elegy said:

I always glanced over that and I still believe it's likely that it's not meant in a literal way, but the more I think about it, the more it seems like a possibility at least. Maybe Patji was something comparable to a greatshell and the island is its corpse.

Patji's still alive

Quote

Elegy (paraphrased)

The second letter in this one [Oathbringer], was it written by Patji?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Bonn Signing (May 15, 2019)

Just noticed the name, this is kind of funny 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Honorless

[Elegy]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Patji's still alive

Just noticed the name, this is kind of funny 

He's alive by the time of Oathbringer, but a lot of time passes between that and First of the Sun. Although you're probably right that he still lives, it's just that this particular WOB doesn't tell anything about it. ... For some reason, Khriss mentioning the perpendicularity on First of the Sun must have something to do with something that happened in the "past" of the planet always left the impression that it was a leftover of something that isn't there anymore. (Although I do know that we don't know when the essays were written exactly.) Well, all I want to say is, as far as I know, he could have died in the meantime.

Edit: He's alive!

Quote

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

That's the WOB you should have quoted 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Elegy

[Honorless]

Hmm, I never paid attention to that part. I did use that and other WoBs (https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?query=Patji%2BAvatar) to try to deduce Avatars' nature though

Besides, I think this is the correct answer, as I've already stated:

Quote

This probably refers to Yolen. In The Liar of Partinel, this phrase is used a lot.

I went looking for any instances of Hoid using this phrase in canon, he does in Warbreaker: "It was a distant place where two lands meet and gods have died"  when Siri asked him where he learned his storytelling.

The "dead god(s)" being mentioned is/are not Adonalsium as the book was supposed to take place before the Shattering

Update: answered, found a WoB:

Quote

Strumienpola (paraphrased)

Were Yolen dead gods some kind of pre-Adonalsium shards?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO on Yolen... but no. Before the Shattering there were no Shards, so these gods are something different.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

In the Liar of Partinel, it is mentioned that Fainlife first emerged from the corpses of dead gods

Edited March 19, 2020 by Dreamer

[Quantus]

I lean strongly toward it being a reference to one of the planets in the Threnodite system, though maybe not Threnody itself.  We know that Ambition was killed "mortally wounded" in the empty space of the system, so it would make a lot of sense for the Shard's "body" to have fallen to one of the planets/moons.  Fwiw I also tend to think that's referring to a huge stash of the Shard's physical Investiture (aka a shardpool or godmetal stash) rather than the literal corpse of the Vessel that drops when they die (as seen in Mistborn).  If I had to guess I would actually say the body fell on Purity, based purely on the fact that it is the oddball out in both location, size, and confirmed significant Naming Convention.

 

 

Quote

 

PallonianFire

Were the planets in the Threnodite System named like that in response to Ambition's demise? 

Brandon Sanderson

It is not a coincidence that so many of the planets have to do with songs of mourning or passing, in that system. So, you are on to something.

Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)

 

 

[Karger]

10 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Ambition was actually splintered far away from Threnody . In the preface of that story in AU , he says the Battle began in the area around Threnody but it ended in Space a distance away so I don’t think that’s it ....

I am aware but "the waves of destruction-carrying ripped off pieces of Ambition's power-twisted both the people..."(From Khriss's essay on Threnody published in Silverligh'ts arcanum unbound collection).

Edited January 14, 2020 by Ookla the Prolific

[Weltall]

My first instinct would be to say it's a Liar of Partinel/Dragonsteel reference, since while we don't know what the 'gods' of Yolen are in cosmere terms right now, we know that they existed (plural, per Hoid's comment in Warbreaker) and their corpses were believed to be where the fainlife first emerged per the chapters Brandon shared, non-canonical though they are.

That said, since there are so many things that could be considered a god in the cosmere, we really can't say for certain. For my part, I'd love to know which god out there wound up worshipping Hoid by accident.

[Lightspine]

17 hours ago, Quantus said:

I lean strongly toward it being a reference to one of the planets in the Threnodite system, though maybe not Threnody itself.  We know that Ambition was killed "mortally wounded" in the empty space of the system, so it would make a lot of sense for the Shard's "body" to have fallen to one of the planets/moons.  Fwiw I also tend to think that's referring to a huge stash of the Shard's physical Investiture (aka a shardpool or godmetal stash) rather than the literal corpse of the Vessel that drops when they die (as seen in Mistborn).  If I had to guess I would actually say the body fell on Purity, based purely on the fact that it is the oddball out in both location, size, and confirmed significant Naming Convention.

 

 

 

OOoooh, I didn't consider the planets around Threnody to be possible candidates as well. Good thinking!

[Use the Falchion]

On 1/13/2020 at 5:26 PM, GoWibble said:

"Honor is dead, but I'll see what I can do"

- Kaladin

 

 

Just had to include that. 

I think that there *might* be a new world, but I kind of want to see a new Shard dead on Scadrial or Roshar or something. 

Come to think about it, Scadrial might be a good example:

  Reveal hidden contents

The Lord Ruler is dead...

 

Yeah Scadrial was my first thought too, because of

Spoiler

Hero of Ages, we see Preservation's body, Ruin's body (I think), and then Vin's body. 

On 1/14/2020 at 6:56 AM, Quantus said:

I lean strongly toward it being a reference to one of the planets in the Threnodite system, though maybe not Threnody itself.  We know that Ambition was killed "mortally wounded" in the empty space of the system, so it would make a lot of sense for the Shard's "body" to have fallen to one of the planets/moons.  Fwiw I also tend to think that's referring to a huge stash of the Shard's physical Investiture (aka a shardpool or godmetal stash) rather than the literal corpse of the Vessel that drops when they die (as seen in Mistborn).  If I had to guess I would actually say the body fell on Purity, based purely on the fact that it is the oddball out in both location, size, and confirmed significant Naming Convention.

 

 

 

That's a GREAT find, and you're probably right!

[Elegy]

I'm not convinced that it's a Shard. The vessel's bodies would probably rot as usual (or else there would be way more than one dead god's corpse lying around), and if, as suggested above, the perpendicularity/god metal counts as a dead god's corpse, then we have multiple as well - two "corpses"(/perpendicularities) on Sel, for instance. It would have to be something remotely special at least to be notable enough for Brandon to mention it, and anything that comes to mind regarding "dead Shard corpses" doesn't seem that unique. Except there's weird things going on. For example, we don't know how a dragon's body rots. Or Cultivation might conserve Tanavast's corpse, which would be kinda creepy, but who knows.

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, Elegy said:

I'm not convinced that it's a Shard. The vessel's bodies would probably rot as usual (or else there would be way more than one dead god's corpse lying around), and if, as suggested above, the perpendicularity/god metal counts as a dead god's corpse, then we have multiple as well - two "corpses"(/perpendicularities) on Sel, for instance. It would have to be something remotely special at least to be notable enough for Brandon to mention it, and anything that comes to mind regarding "dead Shard corpses" doesn't seem that unique. Except there's weird things going on. For example, we don't know how a dragon's body rots. Or Cultivation might conserve Tanavast's corpse, which would be kinda creepy, but who knows.

It's worth noting that Odium ran into Ambition first, then went after D&D on Sel, at which point he tried to shove their Investiture into the Cognitive to prevent it from Gaining sentience (or something like that, cant find the WOB at the moment).  This implies that he did something else the first time, learned from a Mistake, and tried somethign new with D7D on Sel.  

 

Also, here's a relevant WOB:

 

Quote

 

Questioner

So, Sel: Investiture has been pushed into the Cognitive Realm. Threnody: Has it seen something similar?

Brandon Sanderson

It has not seen... Okay. Yes, something similar. It would count. Something similar, yes.

Questioner

If that's the case, what would happen if you were to push Investiture into the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

It generally manifests either as a solid, liquid, or gas

Questioner

I thought about that. I was like, "We've seen that," but it seemed like a concentrated form. What if you did for like a whole Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

That would probably have disastrous effects. 

Questioner

That's why I was thinking for Threnody, but if it hasn't been that, then something else happened.

Brandon Sanderson

It hasn't been that. Something else happened.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

 

[Elegy]

8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

It's worth noting that Odium ran into Ambition first, then went after D&D on Sel

He tried to get Ambition first, but he actually killed the other two before he found her:

Quote

Argent

Some of the few Shards Rayse Splintered included Ambition, I believe, Dominion, and Devotion.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

And those were all way back, in the history. So, we know that the Shards' personalities overrides the Vessel's personality over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Strongly influence, and depending on the individual, override.

Argent

Okay. So did Rayse choose those Shards because--

Brandon Sanderson

He went after Ambition first, but didn't find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

Although that doesn't really conflict your idea. You may be onto something, but I'm not sure if I agree with a Dor-like thing in the Physical Realm being a corpse - to me it would be just an immense amount of energy. But I don't know how Brandon would see that.

[Quantus]

9 minutes ago, Elegy said:

He tried to get Ambition first, but he actually killed the other two before he found her:

Ah, you are indeed correct.  I could have sworn we had confirmation that he'd killed a Shard prior to D&D on Sel.  

9 minutes ago, Elegy said:

Although that doesn't really conflict your idea. You may be onto something, but I'm not sure if I agree with a Dor-like thing in the Physical Realm being a corpse - to me it would be just an immense amount of energy. But I don't know how Brandon would see that.

The WOB I quoted actually addresses that question, which is to say that shoving the Investiture into the Physical Realm would generally force it to manifest as one of the phases of Matter (ie Mist, God-metals, Shardpools, etc) but that doing it to an entire Shard would have "Disastrous effects".  He then specifically states that it was not what happened with Threnody, so I think that shoots the theory firmly in the face.