Exotic spiritual stuff in AonDor

[+Oltux72]

Selish magic can access at least Fortune, as seen by the Dakhor assassin in Teod. AonDor can do a lot of physical things and also has mental and corporal capabilities. But what about spiritual stuff? Can it tap into Fortune or manipulate Identity? Given that it is built on geographic constraints, Connection seems to be taboo. What do you think?

[+Invocation]

The phrase "programming language of reality" doesn't seem to bound it off from altering (or at least reading) Fortune and/or Identity. I'd bet that if they did it right, they could pull some Connection shenanigans as well to keep their powers, but they don't seem to have pulled that off yet. There is some indication that they can access Fortune (Stormlight spoilers)

Spoiler

since Riino was an Elantrian from before the Reod (the one that Raoden and the others chucked into the Perpendicularity that I'm pretty sure was Devotion's) and had a ball of concentrated Investiture used to read Fortune in his Shadesmar lighthouse.

 

[Mushroom Catalog]

I personally think that it's going to be able to mess with basically anything, if it can be provided with power. Messing with connections seems to be the way to go to get it that power.

I think it's probably the most versatile and useful, if you have time, although one of the most complicated. It can kind of just program the universe.

[Karger]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Given that it is built on geographic constraints, Connection seems to be taboo. What do you think?

We actually know you can do stuff with Connection thanks to Mistobrn SH.  They also mention they can do stuff with Fortune.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Ookla the Prolific

[Honorless]

11 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

We actually know you can do stuff with Connection thanks to Mistobrn SH.  They also mention they can do stuff with Fortune.

 

19 hours ago, Invocation said:

 

  Hide contents

since Riino was an Elantrian from before the Reod (the one that Raoden and the others chucked into the Perpendicularity that I'm pretty sure was Devotion's) and had a ball of concentrated Investiture used to read Fortune in his Shadesmar lighthouse.

 

This.

Another example would be the leader of the Shu-Dereth faith, the Gyorn Wulfden IV, who also appears to have access to Fortune, as seen with him arranging for Hrathen's death.

[Quantus]

As a general statement, "Reality" in the cosmere is something that primarily emanates from the Spiritual Realm, so a programming language of Reality is going to be able to manipulate any of the aspect that make it up, including the Spiritual ones. 

There might be practical limits to how they can use it since the actual Power source is (uniquely) in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual one, so for example it might take a lot of work to make Dor magics implement Spiritual Healing, as opposed to the very cognitive ReSealing which is more a physical manipulation where you need to accurately know the placement of every blood vessel and sinew.  But I think that's more a matter of the system's easily accessed (ie default) operations that would be surmountable with enough Realmic understanding, just like how Soul-casting defaults to the Essences but can be infinitely flexible with enough knowledge and understanding.  

[Karger]

8 hours ago, Quantus said:

Spiritual Healing

Actually a general healing is quite easy.  We see Raoden do it in the book.  The aon len does this even without modification. 

[Quantus]

13 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Actually a general healing is quite easy.  We see Raoden do it in the book.  The aon len does this even without modification. 

Im still really unsure about how Aon Ien is working, but I strongly suspect it's not the same direct Spiritual Restoration that Stormlight or F-Gold provide.  For one thing those shouldnt need modifiers to maximize it's potential or need to be targeted to individual parts of the body, and those also dont have the same potential for catastrophic failure if interrupted.  I strongly suspect it's more of a physical body/cell manipulation type of healing more along the lines of ReSealing or the theoretical Soulcasting Healer, which explains both differences.  

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

For one thing those shouldnt need modifiers to maximize it's potential

If you could use gold healing to target only one organ of the body it could be vastly more effective.

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

those also dont have the same potential for catastrophic failure if interrupted

I think that healing was suppose to effect some kind of genetic failing.  They were trying to correct something her body and soul did not see as wrong.  It was more of a corrective surgery then a gold healing in that case. 

[Zapata]

I would imagine that although not technically impossible, it would be difficult for any Dor-based magic to access the Spiritual Realm. since the Dor is located in the CR, it would not have access to Spiritual ideals or all times in one. If it was easy for the Dor to access the SR, someone would have tried to put it back, maybe the Ire. The Ire would probably benefit from AonDor being un-location-bound. They would not have to run pipes throughout the CR or use an investiture hack (Stormlight)

Spoiler

such as Riino's globe, which stores Stormlight and is described as "foreign technology".

 I also think that Aon Tia and Dakhor teleportation don't transfer the user through the SR at all, but instead function almost like a "push" that moves them instantly to their destination, or at least through the CR to the destination. 

[Pathfinder]

40 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

I would imagine that although not technically impossible, it would be difficult for any Dor-based magic to access the Spiritual Realm. since the Dor is located in the CR, it would not have access to Spiritual ideals or all times in one. If it was easy for the Dor to access the SR, someone would have tried to put it back, maybe the Ire. The Ire would probably benefit from AonDor being un-location-bound. They would not have to run pipes throughout the CR or use an investiture hack (Stormlight)

  Reveal hidden contents

such as Riino's globe, which stores Stormlight and is described as "foreign technology".

 I also think that Aon Tia and Dakhor teleportation don't transfer the user through the SR at all, but instead function almost like a "push" that moves them instantly to their destination, or at least through the CR to the destination. 

Just thinking out loud. Perhaps they couldn't do that because they didn't have enough power? Odium, a shard, is what put the power of two other shards into the cognitive. Maybe they need a shard level of power to put it back? Maybe that is why the IRE tried to get preservation? Just spit balling. 

[Karger]

On 1/16/2020 at 10:29 AM, Bearer of Agonies said:

I would imagine that although not technically impossible, it would be difficult for any Dor-based magic to access the Spiritual Realm. since the Dor is located in the CR, it would not have access to Spiritual ideals or all times in one. If it was easy for the Dor to access the SR, someone would have tried to put it back, maybe the Ire. The Ire would probably benefit from AonDor being un-location-bound. They would not have to run pipes throughout the CR or use an investiture hack (Stormlight)

Putting the shards back together would make them less accessible.  There is a reason that Sel has so many magic systems and that they are so powerful.

[Zapata]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Putting the shards back together would make them less accessible.  There is a reason that Sel has so many magic systems and that they are so powerful.

It's a trade-off. Would you rather have limited abilities anywhere, or unlimited abilities in a single country but be weak or powerless anywhere else? With the Dor in the Spiritual Realm, the Aons and other magic symbols would lose their exactness and those effects that make them be known as a "programming language" system, but they would be easier to learn and use. An example might be that healing would become more difficult, because instead of an Elantrian manipulating the flesh exactly as wanted, healing would probably heal to the Spiritual Ideal. Teleportation might become easier, since the Elantrian would no longer have to be perfectly exact with the distance, but the teleportation would be intuitive to the user's intent. Since the Ire is a worldhopping organization, I'd imagine they'd want to be able to use AonDor freely, without pipes or hacks, even if it is "Spiritual" AonDor, and not the "Cognitive" AonDor we, and supposedly they, are used to. The same would go for unaffiliated Elantrian Worldhoppers, such as Galladon. And AonDor being less accessible would hardly matter to the Ire, since they have already been Initiated into the magic system, and probably wouldn't lose their Elantrian status.

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

Would you rather have limited abilities anywhere, or unlimited abilities in a single country but be weak or powerless anywhere else?

Firstly I personally would prefer the first one.  Secondly I am unsure why you think any of the magic systems selish people use would function if what you are proposing was accomplished. 

[Zapata]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Firstly I personally would prefer the first one.  Secondly I am unsure why you think any of the magic systems selish people use would function if what you are proposing was accomplished. 

This does not entirely answer it, but, 

Quote

Landis963 (paraphrased)

Is the programming-esque nature of the Dor a product of the power being in the Cognitive Realm or is it for some other reason?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A mixture of the Vessels' personalities, the fact that the power's in the Cognitive Realm, and the nature of Sel's focus.

GenCon 2017 (Aug. 17, 2017)

So the focus, which is presumably symbols, was already there. and I never mentioned a new Vessel, just putting the Investiture in the SR. however, that's all I have to go on. Any new magic would still be symbol-based, and so far, an Elantrian can't be made mortal again. Being removed from the Dor just takes away their powers, but they would have the necessary Connection to the Dor to gain their powers again. I'd imagine that former Elantrianns would be the first and possibly only users of a hypothetical, new Spiritual symbol magic, if putting the Dor in the SR would even erase existing systems.

[Karger]

39 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

Being removed from the Dor just takes away their powers, but they would have the necessary Connection to the Dor to gain their powers again

Evidence?

 

[Honorless]

14 hours ago, Karger said:

Evidence?

That's how the Investiture system seems to work. The ability to use the magic is in the Spiritweb. Going by that WoB plus a few indications from the book shows that AonDor, at least was there before Devotion & Dominion's Splintering and their Investiture getting shoved into the Cognitive Realm. It probably would effect their power to some degree, but the ability to tap into the AonDor wouldn't go away even if the Dor itself was pushed back into the Spiritual Realm

[Zapata]

16 hours ago, Karger said:

Evidence?

 

Quote

Yourigath

Can you access the Dor while on other planets? Can you, I don't know, "tell the Dor" that you are on Roshar using an Aon that doesn't have the base on the map of Sel but in the world of Roshar and use Elantrian magic there? An Aon with an spiral pattern with the right lines, dots, etc... that tells the Dor "I'm here. This is Roshar. And I need your power to do X"

Brandon Sanderson

Great question, and one integral to the workings of cosmere Magic! No, you cannot currently access the Dor anywhere else. The Dor is a big part of why magic on Sel is distinctive.

Yourigath

If an Elantrian worldhops does it returns to a normal human pre-Shaod state? If this Elantrian goes back to Sel it recovers his Elantrian powers or he keeps his pre-Shaod form?

Brandon Sanderson

An Elantrian away from Sel would still be an Elantrian--but many of the visible signs would fade away, much like something florescent that stops glowing when moved away from a Black Light.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 22, 2015)

When an Elantrian leaves the Dor's influence, they retain the Connection to the Dor, and maybe some sDNA or something, to use their powers when they come back to the Dor.

[Karger]

59 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

When an Elantrian leaves the Dor's influence, they retain the Connection to the Dor, and maybe some sDNA or something, to use their powers when they come back to the Dor.

Maybe but their powers would not be nearly as impressive. 

[Zapata]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Maybe but their powers would not be nearly as impressive. 

Exactly. "Spiritual" AonDor would probably be more intuitive, but less specific than "Cognitive" AonDor.

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

Exactly. "Spiritual" AonDor would probably be more intuitive, but less specific than "Cognitive" AonDor.

I personally would prefer a less intuitive system that had more specific results.  Also for the purposes of research, commerce, and industry I think the current system is far better.

[Zapata]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

I personally would prefer a less intuitive system that had more specific results.  Also for the purposes of research, commerce, and industry I think the current system is far better.

For research and industry, the current system is better. Commerce might be made easier by Aon Tia, which can only teleport one-way when trying to teleport past Arelon. But if unbound, it might be able to come back to Elantris.

[Karger]

9 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

But if unbound, it might be able to come back to Elantris.

Yeah but if it becomes "more intuitive" you might start geeing unpredictable results around using Aon Tia.  Even if you don't I am fairly sure that a smart Elantrian can "summon" stuff.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

On 1/16/2020 at 10:29 AM, Bearer of Agonies said:

I would imagine that although not technically impossible, it would be difficult for any Dor-based magic to access the Spiritual Realm. since the Dor is located in the CR, it would not have access to Spiritual ideals or all times in one. If it was easy for the Dor to access the SR, someone would have tried to put it back, maybe the Ire. The Ire would probably benefit from AonDor being un-location-bound. They would not have to run pipes throughout the CR or use an investiture hack (Stormlight)

  Reveal hidden contents

such as Riino's globe, which stores Stormlight and is described as "foreign technology".

 

I think you’re misunderstanding what the Dor is. It is the physical manifestation of the two Shards that Odium killed and then stuffed into the CR. The Dor is the Selish equivalent of Stormlight or BioChroma or the Mists. All magic system access the SR in one way or another, because it is the source or all Investiture and the place where the bulk of the Shards’ power lies, the only thing that is different is the path that they take to get there (Stormlight, Breath, metal, Dor).

[Zapata]

22 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I think you’re misunderstanding what the Dor is. It is the physical manifestation of the two Shards that Odium killed and then stuffed into the CR. The Dor is the Selish equivalent of Stormlight or BioChroma or the Mists. All magic system access the SR in one way or another, because it is the source or all Investiture and the place where the bulk of the Shards’ power lies, the only thing that is different is the path that they take to get there (Stormlight, Breath, metal, Dor).

Quote

The Dor is a mass of plasma-like substance in the Cognitive Realm, a large amount of power left behind after Odium visited Sel. It is the remnant of Devotion and Dominion's combined powers after the Shards themselves were Splintered.

The Dor is the actual Investiture of D&D, taken out of the SR by Odium. The bulk of D&D is located in the CR. It is Location-bound, because the CR has distinctive locations.