Why does Odium occupy the perpendicularity in the Horneater peaks?

[+Oltux72]

Odium started doing this before Dalinar had his unity moment. Hence it is possible that he thinks to deny it to the Knights Radiant as the only good way to get into and out of Roshar. Or he needs for his own goals. Indeed I see three basic options

1. Something hostile to him needs to be blocked from going into Roshar. Hoid? Is he that important? Mercenaries fighting for the Radiants? Nightblood?
2. Odium wants to pass something physical into Roshar. That could be anything. Ideas? Does he still have forces on Ashyn after all these years?
3. The perpendicularity offers some way to hurt Cultivation.

What do you think?

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Odium wants to pass something physical into Roshar. That could be anything. Ideas? Does he still have forces on Ashyn after all these years?

Fused need a way into the CR.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Something hostile to him needs to be blocked from going into Roshar. Hoid? Is he that important? Mercenaries fighting for the Radiants? Nightblood?

I personally think this is a side benefit.

[RShara]

Because occupying a perpendicularity means you can control who can transition in and out of it. Which, from what we've seen in Shadesmar in OB, is important, since he's gotten the spren to report all sorts of things to him.

[Weltall]

By controlling Cultivation's Perpendicularity he effectively gets to keep the vast majority of humanity from having any access to Shadesmar, at least not without him knowing about it. He can't stop Elsecallers but they're about the only people who can transition between the realms without going through that Perpendicularity, since the Oathgates are currently locked down to prevent Physical-to-Cognitive transfers. That it also keeps worldhoppers out of Roshar may or may not be an intended side benefit, likewise that it keeps Hoid from leaving.

But yeah, I suspect the main reason is simply to keep control of the access between realms for its own sake rather than because he has a particular goal in mind.

[+Oltux72]

7 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Fused need a way into the CR.

Why now? He has a shortage of Fused and he has as much time as he needs. Why divide his forces?

7 hours ago, RShara said:

Because occupying a perpendicularity means you can control who can transition in and out of it. Which, from what we've seen in Shadesmar in OB, is important, since he's gotten the spren to report all sorts of things to him.

Well, we have also seen that he has whole armies of "spren" who can make the transition without a perpendicularity. And why does he wish to antagonize the Spren of Shadesmar? What is in for him? They can transition without a perpendicularity and he really does not wish to drive them to reestablishing the Knights Radiant.

6 hours ago, Weltall said:

By controlling Cultivation's Perpendicularity he effectively gets to keep the vast majority of humanity from having any access to Shadesmar, at least not without him knowing about it.

The vast majority of humanity cannot go to the Peaks anyway. If they did transition they would land in a sea of beads. And if they mastered that, they'd end up in a land without food or water. What is to fear from the vast majority?

6 hours ago, Weltall said:

But yeah, I suspect the main reason is simply to keep control of the access between realms for its own sake rather than because he has a particular goal in mind.

So he's irrational?

[Quantus]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why now? He has a shortage of Fused and he has as much time as he needs. Why divide his forces?

Well, we have also seen that he has whole armies of "spren" who can make the transition without a perpendicularity. And why does he wish to antagonize the Spren of Shadesmar? What is in for him? They can transition without a perpendicularity and he really does not wish to drive them to reestablishing the Knights Radiant.

The vast majority of humanity cannot go to the Peaks anyway. If they did transition they would land in a sea of beads. And if they mastered that, they'd end up in a land without food or water. What is to fear from the vast majority?

So he's irrational?

I really dont think he needs the perpendicularity to transition his own forces, at least not since the Everstorm, but Control of the Perpendicularity controls the only stable source of Stormlight for the spren population in Shadesmar, which I have to assume is an important resource to them all.  They will still be able to harvest from the Storm/Honor's Perpendicularity like we saw in OB, but they said it's very errratic so I suspect they rely on the constant one.

There is also the fact that there is an aweful lot of Worldhopping happening on Roshar in general, and only more as Radiants emerge, not to mention the SA4 prelude hint that realmic travel is going to be a plot point/goal.  

Edited January 13, 2020 by Quantus

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I really dont think he needs the perpendicularity to transition his own forces, at least not since the Everstorm, but Control of the Perpendicularity controls the only stable source of Stormlight for the spren population in Shadesmar, which I have to assume is an important resource to them all.  They will still be able to harvest from the Storm/Honor's Perpendicularity like we saw in OB, but they said it's very errratic so I suspect they rely on the constant one.

But why? What is the advantage of fighting the spren, too? Not enough enemies? And even if so, why now? And why search the rest of Shadesmar? What does he gain from that?

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

There is also the fact that there is an aweful lot of Worldhopping happening on Roshar in general, and only more as Radiants emerge, not to mention the SA4 prelude hint that realmic travel is going to be a plot point/goal.  

What does he care about worldhoppers? And he must know that the Radiants have Elsecallers and Willshapers. Why make more of them by getting the Spren into the war now?

[Quantus]

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But why? What is the advantage of fighting the spren, too? Not enough enemies? And even if so, why now? \

It's not that there is an advantage or not, that would imply that war with the Spren was somehow avoidable or uninvolved with his goals. This is a war on two fronts and against what are still two (or more) separate forces, but his end goal is the destruction of Cultivation and then Roshar itself when he rips himself free of it.  He's already at war with them, and ignoring them would be a huge mistake on his part. So he's ocucpying their cities, keeping their races from badnign together like they had previously, and doing what he can to control what is literally, objectively the largest existing stash of Power of his true Enemy (Cultivation).  Ignoring Shademar in his war effort would be like fighting a continental war and entirely ignoring the Sea, which means you have already lost the naval side of the fight.  

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

And why search the rest of Shadesmar? What does he gain from that?

What Search are you talking about?

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

What does he care about worldhoppers? And he must know that the Radiants have Elsecallers and Willshapers. Why make more of them by getting the Spren into the war now?

If he is smart he will care about winning the war, which means controlling all the potential wildcards.  Currently we know that Nalthian Worldhoppers have come and gone, we know there are Kandra there, hints at a potential Dragon, The Ghostbloods are an active Worldhopper Organization that is meddling, Gavilar and the Sons of Honor are trying to get Realmic travel working on their own which could open up Braize potentially, or even open up Ashyn and it;'s Disease Magic in an extreme turn of events. 

 

Separate from that, it's one of only two actual sources of Stormlight, which is quite likely also one of the two places spren can go to make new spren.   And that's assuming that he  cannot pull Investiture Corrupting Shenanigans by controlling what is essentially the more stable of the two wellsprings of Investiture for the whole world; I can imagine all kinds of potential shenanigans that could be pulled by an Unmade that is parked right on top of a Perpendicularity's Cognitive Self.  If the CR is the lens that projects the SR Truth as the Physical, inserting an UnMade there sounds like a Very Bad Thing.

[Frustration]

Now here is the question why has Cultivation left the perpendicularity there, we know Autonomy simply hasn't formed theirs in years; So what goal is Cultivation working towards?

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, Booknerd said:

we know Autonomy simply hasn't formed theirs in years

Oh, that's an interesting & somewhat straightforward theory regarding why Taldain has been inaccessible! Or has it been confirmed? Can a Shard willingly close theirs? Investiture on a large scale is supposed to pool naturally, forming a Perpendicularity, so I'm not sure they can. They can do stuff with it but just make it go away? I don't think they can do that... 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Honorless

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

It's not that there is an advantage or not, that would imply that war with the Spren was somehow avoidable or uninvolved with his goals. This is a war on two fronts and against what are still two (or more) separate forces,

Because Odium has so chosen, without necessity. What is easier, defeating the humans and then the spren, or humans and spren at the same time?

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

but his end goal is the destruction of Cultivation and then Roshar itself when he rips himself free of it.  He's already at war with them, and ignoring them would be a huge mistake on his part. So he's ocucpying their cities, keeping their races from badnign together like they had previously, and doing what he can to control what is

What is the point of announcing his resurgence? The spren by themselves are far less dangerous than humans and spren forming Nahel bonds. Letting them ignore the threat for as long as possible would be the best option.

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

literally, objectively the largest existing stash of Power of his true Enemy (Cultivation).  Ignoring Shademar in his war effort would be like fighting a continental war and entirely ignoring the Sea, which means you have already lost the naval side of the fight.

What would the spren do?

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

What Search are you talking about?

Odium sending controllers to spren cities. What are they looking for?

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

If he is smart he will care about winning the war, which means controlling all the potential wildcards.  Currently we know that Nalthian Worldhoppers have come and gone, we know there are Kandra there, hints at a potential Dragon, The Ghostbloods are an active Worldhopper Organization that is meddling, Gavilar and the Sons of Honor are trying to get Realmic travel working on their own which could open up Braize potentially, or even open up Ashyn and it;'s Disease Magic in an extreme turn of events.

So he is taking a certain disadvantage for an unlikely contingency?

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Separate from that, it's one of only two actual sources of Stormlight, which is quite likely also one of the two places spren can go to make new spren.   And that's assuming that he  cannot pull Investiture Corrupting Shenanigans by controlling what is essentially the more stable of the two wellsprings of Investiture for the whole world; I can imagine all kinds of potential shenanigans that could be pulled by an Unmade that is parked right on top of a Perpendicularity's Cognitive Self.  If the CR is the lens that projects the SR Truth as the Physical, inserting an UnMade there sounds like a Very Bad Thing.

Now that is a reason.

[Elegy]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Oh, that's an interesting & somewhat straightforward theory regarding why Taldain has been inaccessible! Or has it been confirmed? Can a Shard willingly close theirs? Investiture on a large scale is supposed to pool naturally, forming a Perpendicularity, so I'm not sure they can. They can do stuff with it but just make it go away? I don't think they can do that... 

It's not confirmed. There is, however, a theory that Autonomy put her perpendicularity under the Deep Sand, which I find very plausible.

Sixth of the Dusk:

That would also go well with how Patji's eye is surrounded by some of the most dangerous fauna in the cosmere, conveniently keeping Silverlight expeditions from it as if it was designed to punish those that want to use it.

Regarding the OP: Odium might have done it specifically because Kaladin, Shallan and Adolin were around. I believe he wanted to keep them away from Dalinar as effectively as possible, since isolating Dalinar was essential for his plan. Also, it already seems to have paid off in a way, since Azure (who was essential in making Kholinar last as long as it did) seems to have had trouble:

Quote

Questioner

So after Nightblood was used pretty obviously in Thaylen City does Zahel [or Vasher] know?

Brandon Sanderson

Where Nightblood is? Zahel is pretty sure where Nightblood is; Vivenna does not know. She's on the look out let's say.

Questioner

I guess it's hard to get back from Shadesmar.

Brandon Sanderson

It is. She had some plans and that didn't work out.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

 

[Quantus]

28 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Because Odium has so chosen, without necessity. What is easier, defeating the humans and then the spren, or humans and spren at the same time?

I think this all boils down to the idea that you see the war with the spren as somehow avoidable, I do not, so Im not sure we'll agree on this.  To my mind the real question is which is easier: defeating the Humans and spren while they are still separate, or defeating them once they have united and re-formed a large-scale Radiant force?  Meanwhile, the spren very much rely on a human/mortal presence to maintain shademar itself on Roshar, and have at least as much to loose by Odium ripping his Invested Essence from the planet.  Which to say nothing for what would happen to them when he killed Cultivation and (presumably) shoved her Investiture into Shadesmar the way he did on Sel.  

Basically, it sounds like you think he has a reasonable chance of fighting the humans' war to completion before he'd even have to turn his attention to the Spren.  But his ultimate goal is the closest thing to a unified Leader of the Spren (Cultivation).  Personally, I think he has a better chance of getting at her through Shadesmar than the PR, but frankly both wars are secondary to his actual goal, barring specific functional details of the Oathpact that he'd need to address.  

 

 

[Karger]

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why now? He has a shortage of Fused and he has as much time as he needs. Why divide his forces?

We know that he is sending fused into the CR through Cultivation's perpendicularity because they show up there.  As to why.  I can only speculate but I suspect that he is attempting to keep the spren away from potential human bondmates.

9 hours ago, Booknerd said:

Now here is the question why has Cultivation left the perpendicularity there, we know Autonomy simply hasn't formed theirs in years; So what goal is Cultivation working towards?

First of all she is in hiding.  She might not be able to get rid of it.  Second of all it may serve an important purpose in Roshar's ecology or (here is the cool one) she can't. Remember the Horneaters got a Promise!  Shard's can't break those.

[Frustration]

21 hours ago, Honorless said:

Oh, that's an interesting & somewhat straightforward theory regarding why Taldain has been inaccessible! Or has it been confirmed? Can a Shard willingly close theirs? Investiture on a large scale is supposed to pool naturally, forming a Perpendicularity, so I'm not sure they can. They can do stuff with it but just make it go away? I don't think they can do that... 

Well when they say in Arcanum Unbounded that Autonomy cut Taldain off from everywhere else it seems the only logical conclusion.

[Quantus]

5 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Well when they say in Arcanum Unbounded that Autonomy cut Taldain off from everywhere else it seems the only logical conclusion.

I dont know about that, given that Hoid still managed it while the embargo was in effect, and we've seen that he hasnt yet bypassed the use of Perpendicularities.  It's equally possible that it was hidden/shielded somehow, or even simply guarded by something impassable (possibly with fangs and claws).  

21 hours ago, Honorless said:

Oh, that's an interesting & somewhat straightforward theory regarding why Taldain has been inaccessible! Or has it been confirmed? Can a Shard willingly close theirs? Investiture on a large scale is supposed to pool naturally, forming a Perpendicularity, so I'm not sure they can. They can do stuff with it but just make it go away? I don't think they can do that... 

As far as I know that hasnt been confirmed anywhere, though I do like the theory.  I dont think it would work for most of the shards, because as you say the emergence of a shardpool and godmetal have so far been described more as natural and unavoidable processes, so I dont know that a Shard could stop it whiel still being Invested.  But Autonomy is unique, and maybe the way that theShard's power is (seeminly) distributed across a bunch of Hosts on a bunch of different worlds prevents any single location from being Invested enough to form a Perpendicularity there.  Which would also explain how there is an Avatar present on Taldain but it still doesnt qualify as a Major shardworld.