lccaseiro58

Kaladin and Cultivation plan

22 posts in this topic

I was rereading OB and in the end Odium meets Taravangian and they make a deal in which the Diagram will work for Odium and in return Odium will spare anyone born in Kharbranth, their spouse and the city itself. I think this deal will be very important in the resolution of the first arc. 

1 - There's the popular theory that Mr. T is a plant by Cultivation, i think the diagram was Cultivation way to bind Odium to an agreement which he, as a shard, has to follow as long as Taravangian keeps his word.

2 - This deal makes Odium ineffective against someone who was born in Kharbranth or their spouse. So i was trying to find some important character that was born in Kharbranth and was not Taravangian until i found one Hesina, Kaladin's mom.

3 - We know Hesina is not from Hearthstone and from some conversations in WoK we can assume she was born in a city, we also know Lirin lived in Kharbranth from a long time. So we can assumed they met there.

4 - We don't know when they returned to Hearthstone, i didn't find anything saying that Kaladin birth was in Hearthstone. And we know one of Kaladin grandparents is lighteyes, perhaps they were the ones who named him when they were still in Kharbranth.

So in conclusion Cultivation plan was to force Odium to compromise with Taravangian, so that she could give an advantage to Kaladin, which might be Honor's champion.

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That is one theory.  Someone came to the same conclusion several months ago.  It does require a large number of things to fall into place perfectly but it is defiantly possible.

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I mean, that might protect Kaladin's parents, but I feel like making Kaladin himself born in Kharbranth would be a little too convenient, storytelling-wise; we can't very well have our main protagonist magically unable to be harmed by any of the main villains. 

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4 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

I mean, that might protect Kaladin's parents, but I feel like making Kaladin himself born in Kharbranth would be a little too convenient, storytelling-wise; we can't very well have our main protagonist magically unable to be harmed by any of the main villains. 

To be fair Odium only promised that he personally would not order the destruction or Kharbranth he made no promises that any Kharbranthian who attempted to interfere in his plans would not be killed by one of his servants.

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Well, no, he promised to spare every human born within the city. Which I'm pretty sure doesn't include a hidden 'unless one of them gets really annoying to me' clause, but does include a 'I have to do my best to make sure my minions don't kill people from there either' clause, because of course that's what Taravangian would have Intended it to mean. 

But it's kind of moot at that point anyway; if Kaladin isn't protected by the deal, it might as well just be because he wasn't born in Kharbranth, rather than because Odium weaselled out of fulfilled the spirit of a deal that he said to hold to the spirit of. 

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I just reread the deal part, and Odium very carefully specifies 'those born into Kharbranth and their spouses' which unfortunately disqualifies Kaladin even if Hesina was truly born there, because I also do not think they had time to travel to Hearthstone if Kaladin had been born in Kharbranth.

Quote

"Kharbranth," he said. "Preserve only Kharbranth. You may destroy all other nations. Just leave my city. It is what I beg of you."

(cutting the middle bits)

"Kharbranth," Odium said. "The city itself and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses. This is who I will spare. Do you agree to this?"

 

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Whoa, that'd be really cool!

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What immediately struck me reading that passage was that Odium very carefully specifies the city itself (and why destroy a perfectly good city, his Singers will have to live somewhere after all), anyone in the city currently who was born in Kharbranth and their spouses.

But not their future children.

Odium can stick strictly to the letter of this agreement, and Kharbranth could still cease to exist eventually, as those currently alive grow old and die while Odium disposes of any future human children born? Has Mr T doomed his city anyway...just more slowly?

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7 hours ago, Dalfiatach said:

Odium can stick strictly to the letter of this agreement, and Kharbranth could still cease to exist eventually, as those currently alive grow old and die while Odium disposes of any future human children born? Has Mr T doomed his city anyway...just more slowly?

He could, but he makes a point of sticking to the "spirit of the law," rather than the letter. But that also requires we trust Odium, who isn't really all that trustworthy. It could go either way, really...

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21 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

He could, but he makes a point of sticking to the "spirit of the law," rather than the letter. But that also requires we trust Odium, who isn't really all that trustworthy. It could go either way, really...

Shards are bound by their word, that's why Honor advises Dalinar to enforce a duel of champions. Unless Taravangian breaks the agreement first i don't see a way Odium can get out of it.

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9 minutes ago, lccaseiro58 said:

Shards are bound by their word, that's why Honor advises Dalinar to enforce a duel of champions. Unless Taravangian breaks the agreement first i don't see a way Odium can get out of it.

Oh that's not what I'm worried about. It was about Odium pulling a technicality and saying "I'm only protecting this first generation. So long suckers!" which is totally what some other shards would do (Odium explicitly mentions Honor in this capacity), versus him actually protecting/not destroying future generations of Kharbranth.

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1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

Oh that's not what I'm worried about. It was about Odium pulling a technicality and saying "I'm only protecting this first generation. So long suckers!" which is totally what some other shards would do (Odium explicitly mentions Honor in this capacity), versus him actually protecting/not destroying future generations of Kharbranth.

As long as the next generation is born in Kharbranth, they will still be protected.

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22 minutes ago, Llstml said:

As long as the next generation is born in Kharbranth, they will still be protected.

This is also my assumption.  In the SA darkest timeline we will have Kharbranth alone as the sole human outpost as the rest of Roshar is destroyed and starts to look more like the shattered plains where small bands of singers claw out a meager existence.

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It doesn’t seem to me like Kharbranth will really be protected. Its citizens may survive, but as a city-state, it will likely collapse economically, due to its reliance on commerce.

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Shards can lie, and you have to get them to swear a specific Oath if you expect them to be bound by it.

Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

Ruin lied all the time in the texts that he changed and to Vin, pretending to be Reen, etc.

 

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6 hours ago, Llstml said:

As long as the next generation is born in Kharbranth, they will still be protected.

Mine too. But Shard's aren't exactly trustworthy, and it's after that generation things get iffy. I'd LIKE to think that Odium would protect them too, but that requires an amount of trust I'm not sure I have to give is the point. 

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43 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Mine too. But Shard's aren't exactly trustworthy, and it's after that generation things get iffy. I'd LIKE to think that Odium would protect them too, but that requires an amount of trust I'm not sure I have to give is the point. 

Shards cannot break their oaths, and as Odium has sworn an oath to protect anyone born in Kharbranth, he must do so.

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21 minutes ago, Llstml said:

Shards cannot break their oaths, and as Odium has sworn an oath to protect anyone born in Kharbranth, he must do so.

I think you're missing the point. The exact wording:

Quote

"Kharbranth," Odium said. "The city itself and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses. This is who I will spare. Do you agree to this?"

Is in past tense. It doesn't say anyone who is born in Kharbranth. It very carefully says those who have been born there. The next generation is screwed.

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2 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Is in past tense. It doesn't say anyone who is born in Kharbranth. It very carefully says those who have been born there. The next generation is screwed.

My own interpretation is that anyone born in Kharbranth, past or future, would be included in Odium's "protection".  He explicitly promises to spare the city, and if he were to wipe out the next generation, he would be destroying the city just as surely.

But as for Kaladin, I strongly suspect that while Hesia and Lirin might be under Odium's "protection", Kaladin and his brother would be out of luck.  True, we don't know Kaladin's birthplace, but I feel like there hasn't been enough foreshadowing for him to be born there.  For Hesia there is, IMHO, but not for Kaladin.

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9 hours ago, galendo said:

My own interpretation is that anyone born in Kharbranth, past or future, would be included in Odium's "protection".  He explicitly promises to spare the city, and if he were to wipe out the next generation, he would be destroying the city just as surely.

I personally really dont think so, because Odium's first offer specifically addressed generations, when he offered to perserve Mr T's family which he defined as "anyone within two generations of you."  The fact that he didnt include that in the next offer, instead changing it to those immediately born or married into it, makes me think it's specifically not extending as far into the family tree.  

 

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On 1/12/2020 at 2:54 AM, Dalfiatach said:

What immediately struck me reading that passage was that Odium very carefully specifies the city itself (and why destroy a perfectly good city, his Singers will have to live somewhere after all), anyone in the city currently who was born in Kharbranth and their spouses.

But not their future children.

Odium can stick strictly to the letter of this agreement, and Kharbranth could still cease to exist eventually, as those currently alive grow old and die while Odium disposes of any future human children born? Has Mr T doomed his city anyway...just more slowly?

I don't think so, as long as the people born and living in Kharbranth have children on Kharbranth soil Odium can't do anything to them because they would be born in Kharbranth. If Odium forces them out of Kharbranth however... then we have trouble since he just stated they will live and the city will stand, just not that the same people will be living there.

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5 minutes ago, Firebolt-101 said:

I don't think so, as long as the people born and living in Kharbranth have children on Kharbranth soil Odium can't do anything to them because they would be born in Kharbranth. If Odium forces them out of Kharbranth however... then we have trouble since he just stated they will live and the city will stand, just not that the same people will be living there.

Odds are, he's still going to occupy Kharbranth. He did it with Kholinar, and he'd likely send the humans outside the city. No longer would they be born into Kharbranth.

Odium came out on top for that deal, and that's probably part of it. Taravangian will have one of his days and realize his mistake then throw himself entirely behind Dalinar because he realizes his mistake.

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