Shallan's Visions

[Ricocheting Windrunner]

So I'm kinda confused. 

In The Way of Kings Shallan kept on seeing Cryptics in her drawings by accidentally sketching them. Then there was the scene in her bedroom were she actually toughed one. Patter appears and the incidents just abruptly stop without much explanation. 

So maybe I am just dumb but what was the reason behind the cryptics appearing to her before she got Pattern? What caused that to start and stop? 

[RShara]

They were watching her for various reasons. Probably to see if she would revive Pattern, to see if someone else should take Pattern's place, etc. One of them might have actually been Pattern.

Then she starts to revive him, and also starts traveling to the Shattered Plains, so they didn't need to follow her as closely.

Just now, Ricocheting Windrunner said:

Is all of her lies the reason Shallan bonded Pattern and became a Lightweaver rather than any other order?

Yes, They're attracted to people who are holding large deceptions.

[Quantus]

There are a few different sides of it.  At that time she was bonded to Pattern, first in generations, but he'd regressed to near animalistic levels of stupid.  Shallan, who was bonded to him, was also telling lots of fun lies for very complicated and very human reasons.  She was also pushing her abilities which was causing her to flirt with Shadesmar itself, causing all kinds of illogical human responses (ie fear and panic).  All this would be really interesting to Crytpics and make them want to come and observe.  But once she was calmer and had figured some of it out, and had re-sworn Truths to revive Pattern, she'd likelybecome less interesting to whatever group of cryptic that was.  

There's also the fact that those Cryptics might not have come to the Physical realm for her, rather they might have simply been attracted to the Palanaeum in general and found her of passing interest when they arrived.  If Im not mistaken those visions also dried up around the time she left Karbranth.

[+robardin]

On 1/17/2020 at 10:27 PM, NysemePtem said:

Kaladin always receives a boost when he swears oaths, he was counting on this later on. I don't know if it manifests the same way for Lightweavers, but I think Elhokar would have at least gained the ability to heal. Drehy and Skar were making solid gains during that battle too, so I don't think Elhokar's death was inevitable. My question regarding him is why he was seen as Lightweaver material?

Elhokar was seeing Cryptics as far back as The Way of Kings, when (in Ch. 58) he rants a bit after the "assassination attempt" that was the cut saddle strap, in what Dalinar and Sadeas think is paranoia about Szeth: "We go war for years and years, never noticing the real villains, working quietly in my own camp. They watch me. Always. Waiting. I see their faces in mirrors. Symbols, twisted, inhuman..."

As for what drew Cryptics to him, there are two things: one, the "general attraction" of the true spren to the Kholin Khrew that started with Gavilar, and two, like with Shallan, the lies he told himself, about himself. That he deserved to be king. That he was a good king. That he was, in fact, even really in charge, rather than Dalinar or Sadeas.

I think there's a WoB about that, in fact - that had he survived speaking the First Ideal at Kholinar, his second Lightweaver Ideal would have been admitting to himself that he was a bad king.

Edited January 22, 2020 by robardin

[+Harrycrapper]

They were attracted to all the lies Shallan was telling to Jasnah and others while she was in Kharbranth. I think once she was truthful they weren't attracted to her anymore and found other people. And then she left Kharbranth and they didn't follow her. 

[Ricocheting Windrunner]

Is all of her lies the reason Shallan bonded Pattern and became a Lightweaver rather than any other order?

[Ricocheting Windrunner]

That explains a lot thank you. 

[+Harrycrapper]

Oh, they were probably attracted to Taravangian and the whole Diagram plot too. They were actively kidnapping and killing people and lying about it as well as carrying out a deception that he was an unintelligent person.

[Ricocheting Windrunner]

4 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

Oh, they were probably attracted to Taravangian and the whole Diagram plot too. They were actively kidnapping and killing people and lying about it as well as carrying out a deception that he was an unintelligent person.

That wasn't a complete deception on several days he was an unintelligent person it just varied and they hid his few moments of extreme smartness. 

[Weltall]

Related to this, Cryptics also showed up around Elhokar (in what sounds to other people like paranoid rantings) which by that point could be because the spren in general are paying more attention to the Kholin family or because they were especially interested in Elhokar personally. Or a bit of both, given how his father, uncle, sister and cousin had been/were currently proto-Radiants and he was also ultimately deemed Lightweaver material.

[Ricocheting Windrunner]

Going off of that Elhokar was becoming close to being a Radiant right before he was killed. It seemed like if he had said the final part of the Ideal he would have lived. But if he would have been a Lightweaver that wouldn't have helped him with the battle and about to be stabbed. So was it inevitable that Elhokar died? 

[NysemePtem]

On 1/10/2020 at 7:51 PM, Ricocheting Windrunner said:

Going off of that Elhokar was becoming close to being a Radiant right before he was killed. It seemed like if he had said the final part of the Ideal he would have lived. But if he would have been a Lightweaver that wouldn't have helped him with the battle and about to be stabbed. So was it inevitable that Elhokar died? 

Kaladin always receives a boost when he swears oaths, he was counting on this later on. I don't know if it manifests the same way for Lightweavers, but I think Elhokar would have at least gained the ability to heal. Drehy and Skar were making solid gains during that battle too, so I don't think Elhokar's death was inevitable. My question regarding him is why he was seen as Lightweaver material?

[Weltall]

On 1/17/2020 at 7:27 PM, NysemePtem said:

My question regarding him is why he was seen as Lightweaver material?

Given both the disconnect between Elhokar as a person and Elhokar as a king and his self-perception as an unworthy heir to Gavilar, he's probably been telling himself some really good lies to keep going. Remember that this is the man who engineered an apparent assassination attempt on himself and then lied about it in order to get Dalinar and Sadeas to take his concerns about actual assassins seriously. I'm sure a Cryptic would have a field day with him.

[+robardin]

28 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Given both the disconnect between Elhokar as a person and Elhokar as a king and his self-perception as an unworthy heir to Gavilar, he's probably been telling himself some really good lies to keep going. Remember that this is the man who engineered an apparent assassination attempt on himself and then lied about it in order to get Dalinar and Sadeas to take his concerns about actual assassins seriously. I'm sure a Cryptic would have a field day with him.

ohhhh yeah

[Karger]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

ohhhh yeah

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

Given both the disconnect between Elhokar as a person and Elhokar as a king and his self-perception as an unworthy heir to Gavilar, he's probably been telling himself some really good lies to keep going. Remember that this is the man who engineered an apparent assassination attempt on himself and then lied about it in order to get Dalinar and Sadeas to take his concerns about actual assassins seriously. I'm sure a Cryptic would have a field day with him.

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Questioner

What lie could draw a Cryptic to Elhokar?

Brandon Sanderson

The lie that he lived with for many years: that he was a good king... He started to finally confront it.

[+Invocation]

On 1/10/2020 at 8:51 PM, Ricocheting Windrunner said:

Going off of that Elhokar was becoming close to being a Radiant right before he was killed. It seemed like if he had said the final part of the Ideal he would have lived. But if he would have been a Lightweaver that wouldn't have helped him with the battle and about to be stabbed. So was it inevitable that Elhokar died? 

First draft of Way of Kings had Elhokar dying, so from a meta standpoint, maybe.

[Could Be Fire]

 

 

 

 

On 1/22/2020 at 10:16 AM, Weltall said:

Given both the disconnect between Elhokar as a person and Elhokar as a king and his self-perception as an unworthy heir to Gavilar, he's probably been telling himself some really good lies to keep going. Remember that this is the man who engineered an apparent assassination attempt on himself and then lied about it in order to get Dalinar and Sadeas to take his concerns about actual assassins seriously. I'm sure a Cryptic would have a field day with him.

Yeah, the whole lying to reveal the truth plan was such a lightweaver move. It's why I was a believer in the proto-Radiant!Elhokar theory since WOK. 

I'd also add that beyond the elements of his personality that we see (focused on other's perception of him and his own self-identity/inferiority complex) that are lightweaver-esque his current status is very intriguing to a cryptic. He's technically the King, but no one respects him as a ruler and Navani/Dalinar are treated as the de facto rulers. I can totally see a Cryptic interested in what it means to be "king" as it's very much one of those societal constructs they seem to love.