Is Kelsier a Monster?

[Karger]

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

(to clarify not meaning me repeating it was due to me being annoyed with you. I mean me writing it once again is going to annoy everyone else because of how many times I have written it)

No I get it. 

12 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

ad nauseam - referring to something that has been done or repeated so often that it has become annoying or tiresome

Thanks.

[Honorless]

On 1/23/2020 at 4:28 AM, Karger said:

None of the obligators seemed to know about hemalugry.  This includes trusted ones like Yomen who knew about seers and the atium catches.

I should point out that in Mistborn: Secret History, Kelsier asks the spirit of an Obligator what Koloss were, the Obligator answers in one word. Normally I would have taken it to be an indication of info leak or deduction rather than knowledge but the Obligator also displays behaviour that makes it seem like he's somewhat Cosmere-aware and knew about the Cognitive Realm, recognizing it. And it does make sense that the Obligators would know more than them being kept in the dark. They were the leaders of the Steel Ministry till the Canton of Inquisition took over in TFE.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Honorless

[Karger]

4 hours ago, Honorless said:

Obligator answers in one word

Pretty sure that was a dead Koloss.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Pretty sure that was a dead Koloss.

Not intending to start up our disagreement on Kelsier again, totally respect your view on it. Just commenting that Honorless did make a good point. The obligator was the kolosses keeper. He was turned into a koloss by them. He seemed more upset that they did it to him, than a revelation on how. At least that is how it read to me. That he knew the process, and was upset that they did it to him. 

 

An obligator. This man seemed less surprised by events, and more resigned. By the time Kelsier arrived, the lanky obligator was already starting to stretch away.

"How?" Kelsier demanded, counting on the obligator to understand more about the koloss "How did this happen to you?"

"I don't know" the man said (this I believe is referring to why the koloss turned on him, turning him into a koloss)

Kelsier felt his heart sink

"The beasts" the man continued "should have known better than to take an obligator! I was their keeper, and they did this to me? This world is ruined"

Should have known better? Kelsier clutched the obligator's shoulder as the man stretched toward nothingness "How? Please, how is it done? Men become koloss?"

The obligator looked to him and vanishing, said one word. "Spikes"

[Karger]

38 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Not intending to start up our disagreement on Kelsier again, totally respect your view on it. Just commenting that Honorless did make a good point. The obligator was the kolosses keeper. He was turned into a koloss by them. He seemed more upset that they did it to him, than a revelation on how. At least that is how it read to me. That he knew the process, and was upset that they did it to him. 

OK so by the quote it could go either way.  He might know about it from before or he might have known about it by "practical experience."  However neither proves that he knows that power transferring is possible.  He may or may not have made the connection or never have been told.

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

OK so by the quote it could go either way.  He might know about it from before or he might have known about it by "practical experience."  However neither proves that he knows that power transferring is possible.  He may or may not have made the connection or never have been told.

For myself, the scene shows everyone else being surprised, while the obligator is the only one that was not. That says to me he knew. For myself if you know using spikes creates koloss, it is not too far of a hop and a skip to inquisitors with spikes in their eyes and putting two and two together. But that is just my own reading of it. To each their own. 

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

For myself, the scene shows everyone else being surprised, while the obligator is the only one that was not

It could have been that.  Or as a high ranking obligator it could have been that he was invested and or more/better trained to keep composure under stress.  He was after all employed in a war zone.

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

For myself if you know using spikes creates koloss, it is not too far of a hop and a skip to inquisitors with spikes in their eyes and putting two and two together

Maybe but remember.  Inquisitive(no pun) natures are not exactly encouraged in TFE.  They have not had scientific advancement in over 1000 years.

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

It could have been that.  Or as a high ranking obligator it could have been that he was invested and or more/better trained to keep composure under stress.  He was after all employed in a war zone.

Among the people mentioned were "Many were skaa, but there were soldiers, merchants, and even nobility among them. Both male and female." So the nobles would potentially have been as invested as an obligator as obligators were nobles. The book says the obligator was less surprised, and more resigned. The woman Kelsier spoke to was confused and didn't know where she was. So I took that to mean the obligator knew what was done to him, and what was happening now, just he was upset that the koloss did it to him. But don't really see the benefit of continuing this line of conversation. Feel free to continue with honorless. To each their own. 

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Maybe but remember.  Inquisitive(no pun) natures are not exactly encouraged in TFE.  They have not had scientific advancement in over 1000 years.

Kelsier heard spikes form the obligator and his very next thought was "Spikes. Like Inquisitor spikes?". At the time of this revelation for Kelsier he has no knowledge of hemalurgy whatsoever. No idea what is possible or not possible, but he was able to link the koloss spikes to the inquisitor spikes. But again, this was not intended to start up the discussion regarding Kelsier again. If you disagree. I respect your opinion, and will leave it be. To each their own. 

[Karger]

56 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Kelsier heard spikes form the obligator and his very next thought was "Spikes. Like Inquisitor spikes?

Kelsier also put Reshek's identity together almost instantaneously.  His job required a high degree of insight and critical thinking.  Obligators were bureaucracy.  We are comparing James Bond to an investment banker(I am exaggerating here but it is worth notting).  A few other things.  Obligators specifically recruited alomancers.  Even among nobility alomancy was pretty rare.  That obligator in particular might have had some idea of what was happening to him(I doubt that Kolloses were completely docile even at the best of times) and he would have known to take steps to avoid dying accidentally killed by them.  Skaa and Nobles were not prepared and would not have known how and would have likely died in a panic unaware.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

46 minutes ago, Karger said:

Kelsier also put Reshek's identity together almost instantaneously.  His job required a high degree of insight and critical thinking.  Obligators were bureaucracy.  We are comparing James Bond to an investment banker(I am exaggerating here but it is worth notting).  A few other things.  Obligators specifically recruited alomancers.  Even among nobility alomancy was pretty rare.  That obligator in particular might have had some idea of what was happening to him(I doubt that Kolloses were completely docile even at the best of times) and he would have known to take steps to avoid dying accidentally killed by them.  Skaa and Nobles were not prepared and would not have known how and would have likely died in a panic unaware.

So this comment is not trying to prove a point or anything. Just to clarify the scene. 

1. Preservation was shocked and said "what have you done?" confirming Kelsier's plan. Preservation then further confirms it when he refers to Rashek as perfect. Then Rashek appears. Personally I do not think one needs to be a genius in that case to figure out who died. 

edit: do you mean knowing who Rashek is? Preservation called the Lord Ruler by the name Rashek. Which is a Terris name. There is also how Rashek was named in Alendi's journal, and was stated in it to be a feruchemist. 

2. The scene was when Yomen had the siege engines pepper the koloss with stones while Vin and Elend were distracted. The woman, skaa, nobility and obligator that Kelsier spoke to were people that had already been transformed into koloss however long ago. The koloss were killed by the stones. The "souls" of the koloss people were confused by where they were and what happened. So the people were not killed by koloss to make more koloss. They were already made into koloss. They had no memory of the time they were koloss. So any confusion or surprise they had were them suddenly being in the cognitive realm after their last memories being of being turned into a koloss. Unless I misunderstood what you were saying. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Honorless]

We have roughly one & half books worth of characterization on Kelsier, I think we should stop flanderizing him over a few meta commentaries

Edited February 16, 2020 by Honorless