Karger Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 On 1/10/2020 at 2:52 PM, Pathfinder said: I think, personally, he would have attacked Elend This I kind of doubt. Kelseir would not have needed to openly attack Elend and he was to smart to do so. Additionally Elend was a member of their group at the time and Kelseir was very strongly against inter group fighting. On 1/10/2020 at 2:52 PM, Pathfinder said: Going off the annotations, Breeze at least genuinely believes that his life would be in danger from Kelsier if Kelsier was informed that Breeze was a pure blood. Breeze is paranoid. This is a necessary attribute for someone in his profession but it makes him an unreliable PoV. On 1/10/2020 at 4:23 PM, Pathfinder said: The quote shows (to me) him being so enraged he had to completely remove himself from it. He had been locked up for months and was sort of dead. He also lacked any real human contact for a long period of time. Irrationality and aggression are normal symptoms of those kinds of conditions. This is especially true for someone like Kelseir who felt deeply that being trapped was a death sentence. On 1/14/2020 at 1:44 PM, Pathfinder said: , but he doesnt kill his friends because he trusts them, should not include vin because he had literally just met her He had some decent information from Marsh on her and he probably had met many boys and girls in similar situations. On 1/17/2020 at 0:57 PM, Pathfinder said: Exactly. Which means there is a whole bunch of other ways he could have been fooled. Remember the Lord Ruler had Kelsier thinking his wife Mare betrayed him from one sentence. Straff had a hidden mistborn. Elend's potential wife to be was a hidden mistborn. Why couldn't the inquisitors have hidden mistborn for missions? They could but Kelseir did not know that they could and in point of fact they did not. 7 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Sir Francis Drake did not seek to exterminate every single Spanish person simply because they were spanish. The Founding Fathers did not seek to exterminate every single British soldier simply because they were British. 1. Not really comparable situations. The American colonies were some of the least taxed places on earth at the time and the people their enjoyed good diets and a healthy lifestyle with a high level of education. Additionally many of the funding fathers spent most of their pre revolution days trying to be British. 7 hours ago, Pathfinder said: That Miles and Suit are right when they say there isn't much separating them from Kelsier In temperament and procedure no. In ethics yes. Remember Suit was an extraordinarily wealthy and well connected individual. He had the capacity to achieve many of his goals without bloodshead. He actively chose not to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 21 hours ago, Karger said: This I kind of doubt. Kelseir would not have needed to openly attack Elend and he was to smart to do so. Additionally Elend was a member of their group at the time and Kelseir was very strongly against inter group fighting. Personally I disagree. In secret history he was (to me) enraged. He was so upset he had to remove him from the feed of information because he couldn't take it. He expressed regret for saving Elend's life as it was against "his better judgement". His words. So for myself, I think had he physically been there, and been alive, I could see Kelsier attacking Elend. 21 hours ago, Karger said: Breeze is paranoid. This is a necessary attribute for someone in his profession but it makes him an unreliable PoV. It is from the annotations. The author feels Breeze is scared of this, and that it is warranted. 21 hours ago, Karger said: He had been locked up for months and was sort of dead. He also lacked any real human contact for a long period of time. Irrationality and aggression are normal symptoms of those kinds of conditions. This is especially true for someone like Kelseir who felt deeply that being trapped was a death sentence. I guess you could see it that way. I personally do not. Kelsier had interactions with Preservation, and a information feed in which to learn what was happening in the outside world. To me that scene conveys an enraged individual that felt betrayed. 21 hours ago, Karger said: He had some decent information from Marsh on her and he probably had met many boys and girls in similar situations. Actually it was Dockson that provided the information. Dockson was the one that discovered her, and the only information he had was that she was in Camon's crew, is abused, and seems to use soothing without realizing what it was. Any of that can be doctored or set up. 21 hours ago, Karger said: They could but Kelseir did not know that they could and in point of fact they did not. They did know how the obligators worked. There is a whole dialogue on it between Kelsier, Vin, and Marsh. Marsh assumed it would be more rigorous, but considering the members tended to be nobility with misting powers, (keeping it within their own in his words), the other obligators were relatively lax in their knowledge. Marsh distinguished himself without meaning to, and that drew the interest of the steel inquisitors. It is also mentioned by Vin and Kelsier in scenes how obligators walk around, and have to be included in every legal matter acting as the lord ruler's eyes and ears. Knowing every single dealing to spy on the nobility. Personally if the steel inquisition was this thorough, to me, I do not think it is a stretch at all that they would attempt to put spies among the skaa and the resistance. They have literal spying stations throughout the slums, just like what the skaa crews have. 21 hours ago, Karger said: 1. Not really comparable situations. The American colonies were some of the least taxed places on earth at the time and the people their enjoyed good diets and a healthy lifestyle with a high level of education. Additionally many of the funding fathers spent most of their pre revolution days trying to be British. tglassy referenced how a to some people someone could be seen as a pirate, to others a hero. Sir Francis Drake is a prime example of this. To the spanish he was a pirate and a scourge. To the english he was awarded a knighthood by the queen herself. So I just took the example to a real life situation. Regarding the founding fathers, again that was an example tglassy used. I just responded to it. 21 hours ago, Karger said: In temperament and procedure no. In ethics yes. Remember Suit was an extraordinarily wealthy and well connected individual. He had the capacity to achieve many of his goals without bloodshead. He actively chose not to. I thought the ethics was what we were discussing? The title is "is kelsier a monster?". Are you suggesting that if Kelsier had more funds, he would not have killed anyone associated with the nobles? (genuinely asking, not trying to put words in your mouth) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: I guess you could see it that way. I personally do not. Kelsier had interactions with Preservation, and a information feed in which to learn what was happening Neither of these provide any real emotional support Preservation was mostly irrational and as to his information feed he had been dined that for quite some time and it was like television in that it offered no real chance to interact. 4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: It is from the annotations. The author feels Breeze is scared of this, and that it is warranted. It certainly is not something that it would be wise to advertise but that does not mean that revealing it is a death sentence. 5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Actually it was Dockson that provided the information. Dockson was the one that discovered her, and the only information he had was that she was in Camon's crew, is abused, and seems to use soothing without realizing what it was. Any of that can be doctored or set up. Dockson got a lot of this from Marsh who would know that it was not set up. Also she was clearly a helpless and abused girl. Exactly what more does Kelsier need to know? 7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: They did know how the obligators worked. They actually knew quite a bit. They had to. 8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: There is a whole dialogue on it between Kelsier, Vin, and Marsh. Marsh assumed it would be more rigorous, but considering the members tended to be nobility with misting powers, (keeping it within their own in his words), the other obligators were relatively lax in their knowledge Marsh had different goals then the average obligator and a different knowledge base that combined with his lifelong study of the organization aloud him to infiltrate it. 9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: It is also mentioned by Vin and Kelsier in scenes how obligators walk around, and have to be included in every legal matter acting as the lord ruler's eyes and ears. Knowing every single dealing to spy on the nobility. Personally if the steel inquisition was this thorough, to me, I do not think it is a stretch at all that they would attempt to put spies among the skaa and the resistance. They have literal spying stations throughout the slums, just like what the skaa crews have. Kelsier also did not know about worldhoppers and so did not take care to safeguard his people from Nalthian interference. You really can't expect him to know everything and react accordingly. He just did the best with what he had and that turned out to be enough. 11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Are you suggesting that if Kelsier had more funds, he would not have killed anyone associated with the nobles? (genuinely asking, not trying to put words in your mouth) If Kelsier was a better positioned and supplied individual with political power it is possible he could have gotten away with making major changes to the political structure without killing as many people. We don't actually know what Suit wants but let us take for example Miles. Miles could have done what Wax decided to do. Move into the city and examine the nature of Elendelish money and politics. He could even have done what Marasi is doing and worked to improve the city for everyone through nonviolent messures assuming he had a good education. He chose to kill people instead. That kind of option was not open to Kelseir. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Karger said: Neither of these provide any real emotional support Preservation was mostly irrational and as to his information feed he had been dined that for quite some time and it was like television in that it offered no real chance to interact. Just for reference I am referring to this scene: "And - he hated to confront this one - it looked like the Venture boy was king. When Kelsier realized this, he was so angry he spent days away from the pulses. They'd gone and put a nobleman in charge. Yes, Kelsier had saved this man's life. Against his better judgement he'd rescued the man that Vin loved." That says to me he regretted it. That his "better judgement" was for Elend to die. And that he only acted against this "better judgement" because of Vin. But to each their own. Quote It certainly is not something that it would be wise to advertise but that does not mean that revealing it is a death sentence. Personally I disagree. But to each their own. Quote Dockson got a lot of this from Marsh who would know that it was not set up. Also she was clearly a helpless and abused girl. Exactly what more does Kelsier need to know? The crew was able to get Marsh inserted into the canton with faked papers. For myself I see no reason why such a powerful institution could not do the same. The inquisition knew of such possibilities as they trained their obligators to recognize when soothing is done to them. And they are canny enough to hide this realization till they could mobilize a response to utterly destroy any resistance. Personally I do not think it is far fetched to think that the inquisition would have spies. As to what more would Kelsier need to know? Vin should have been vetted like the rest of the crew. Her history looked into and confirmed. Vin has moved constantly due to Reen. Camon is only the most recent. She literally just appeared, and was "abandoned" by her brother. Just like how Valette is a "distant cousin" who came to luthadel to see the sights. What little kelsier knew about Vin, to me could have easily been doctored. Quote They actually knew quite a bit. They had to. That's what I said? Prior you said they didn't know how obligators worked. I said they did. Now you are saying they knew quite a bit. Now I am confused Quote Marsh had different goals then the average obligator and a different knowledge base that combined with his lifelong study of the organization aloud him to infiltrate it. I guess, but the scene I read had Marsh being thorough and as Kelsier joked "you over achiever you". Marsh showed how much he knew and that caused him to be fast tracked.  "It went fine" Marsh said tersely "Too well, actually - I think I might have distinguished myself from the group. I assumed that I would be at a disadvantage, since I didn't have the same five years of training that the other acolytes did. i made certain to answer questions as thoroughly as possible, and to perform my duties with precision. However, I apparently know more about the Ministry than even some of its members do. i'm certainly more competent than this batch of newcomers, and the prelans have noticed that" Kelsier chuckled "You always were an overachiever" marsh snorted quietly "Anyway my knowledge - not to mention my skill as a Seeker - has already earned me an outstanding reputtion. I'm not sure how closely I want the prelans paying attention to me; that background we devised begins to sound a bit flimsy when an Inquisitor is grilling you" Quote Kelsier also did not know about worldhoppers and so did not take care to safeguard his people from Nalthian interference. You really can't expect him to know everything and react accordingly. He just did the best with what he had and that turned out to be enough. So again I am confused? When did I mention Nalthis? Also I am not saying Kelsier is ineffective. I thought we were talking about Kelsier and his decision to kill anyone associated with the nobility, and does that make him evil/a monster or not. Oltux said that killing civilians associated with an enemy makes sense as Kelsier was a mob boss, and did not want to appear weak. So I mentioned a situation I felt contradicted that and was asking genuinely how that would have applied to that circumstance. Separate from that, as I said I believe Kelsier has evil within him, and depending on the circumstances he finds himself in, he will either let that out, or not. That those involved with him, due to his manipulative tendencies can never truly know where they stand in his esteem. But that is my own reading of the character. Not saying anyone cannot find something good in that character if they so wish.  Quote If Kelsier was a better positioned and supplied individual with political power it is possible he could have gotten away with making major changes to the political structure without killing as many people. We don't actually know what Suit wants but let us take for example Miles. Miles could have done what Wax decided to do. Move into the city and examine the nature of Elendelish money and politics. He could even have done what Marasi is doing and worked to improve the city for everyone through nonviolent messures assuming he had a good education. He chose to kill people instead. That kind of option was not open to Kelseir. Personally I disagree. Kelsier was an incredibly successful thief. He could have attained plenty of money to work with. He had the know how and capability to infiltrate the inquisition as well as the nobility, and had the funds available to afford a Kandra. I believe if he truly wanted to minimize casualties, he had every capability available to him, but he chose not to. But that is just my reading of it. You can totally disagree, and feel the way you do. Edited January 21, 2020 by Pathfinder 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: knew of such possibilities as they trained their obligators to recognize when soothing is done to them That was probably primarily for dealing with nobles not skaa. 5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Personally I do not think it is far fetched to think that the inquisition would have spies They do have spies. Dox killed two of them during one of the first chapters. Kelsier would know how to spot them. 7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: As to what more would Kelsier need to know? Vin should have been vetted like the rest of the crew. Her history looked into and confirmed. Vin has moved constantly due to Reen. Camon is only the most recent. She literally just appeared, and was "abandoned" by her brother. Just like how Valette is a "distant cousin" who came to luthadel to see the sights. What little kelsier knew about Vin, to me could have easily been doctored. I do not think any ministry spy would remain loyal to an employer through the several months that Vin endured Camon and those could not have been faked as the signs of physical abuse were readily apparent. 8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: That's what I said? Prior you said they didn't know how obligators worked. I said they did. Now you are saying they knew quite a bit. Now I am confused Different levels of obligators who worked on different things. 10 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Personally I disagree. Kelsier was an incredibly successful thief. He could have attained plenty of money to work with. He had the know how and capability to infiltrate the inquisition as well as the nobility, and had the funds available to afford a Kandra. I believe if he truly wanted to minimize casualties, he had every capability available to him, but he chose not to. But that is just my reading of it. You can totally disagree, and feel the way you do. And he could not actually spend a lot of that money nor could he exercise any political power. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Karger said: That was probably primarily for dealing with nobles not skaa. "They're trained to recognize when an Allomancer tampers with their emotions" Allomancer for me includes both skaa and noble mistings. Quote They do have spies. Dox killed two of them during one of the first chapters. Kelsier would know how to spot them. In pulling up the quote above, I found this quote below: "It seemed that the Steel Ministry caught up with everyone eventually. Sometimes, Kelsier felt that a skaa Misting's life wasn't so much about surviving as it was about picking the right time to die" So it seems to me a good amount of the Steel Ministry's spies must be doing something right. Quote I do not think any ministry spy would remain loyal to an employer through the several months that Vin endured Camon and those could not have been faked as the signs of physical abuse were readily apparent. Every member of the ministry endures facial tattoos just to join. Those are not painless. Inquisitors get spikes driven through them. Nobles (where the obligators normally get their their recruits) get beat to near death on the chance of snapping them for allomancy. Personally I do not see what Vin went through as too much for a spy of the Steel Ministry to go through. Quote Different levels of obligators who worked on different things. Sorry, still genuinely confused as to the point you are trying to make. Could you explain it again? Quote And he could not actually spend a lot of that money nor could he exercise any political power. Kelsier was able to have a noble attend court and make alliances. He successfully started a house war just on rumors. Personally I think Kelsier would have been very capable of using his money and resources to manipulate the political structure. There is always the lord ruler who prevents any true peaceful over turn, but to me that does not change that Kelsier could have used his resources to make his moves less bloody. And it certainly doesn't change his outlook that if you have anything to do with the nobles, regardless whether you are noble or skaa yourself, you deserve to die. But that is just my personal reading of the character and the books. To each their own. Edited January 21, 2020 by Pathfinder 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 31 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: "They're trained to recognize when an Allomancer tampers with their emotions" Allomancer for me includes both skaa and noble mistings. Yeah but whitch does the ministry have more interaction with? Their primary job is to police the nobility who also have a much larger number of mistlings. 33 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: So it seems to me a good amount of the Steel Ministry's spies must be doing something right. Nobles are the only people worth stealing from. There are no other countries to run to and just existing and having power is a death sentence. The odds are still stacked against the minstlings even if the ministry is fairly incompetent. 36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Every member of the ministry endures facial tattoos just to join. Those are not painless Tattoos may hurt but they are not in the same class as regular beatings that endanger life, malnutrition and a host of other problems caused by poor sanitation. 38 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Inquisitors get spikes driven through them Afterward they can be mind controlled. 38 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Nobles (where the obligators normally get their their recruits) get beat to near death on the chance of snapping them for allomancy That is done to them as children. This is not something they sign up for. 39 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Personally I do not see what Vin went through as too much for a spy of the Steel Ministry to go through. If Vin could not burn pewter she would likely be dead. That is too much. Also consider her age and gender. 40 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Sorry, still genuinely confused as to the point you are trying to make. Could you explain it again? At his point I am not really sure why we are debating this. 40 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Kelsier was able to have a noble attend court and make alliances. He successfully started a house war just on rumors. Personally I think Kelsier would have been very capable of using his money and resources to manipulate the political structure As capable as Elend? Breaking up a political structure that is not too stable to begin with through a combination misinformation and assassination is not even in the same ballpark as enacting lasting political change. 43 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: There is always the lord ruler who prevents any true peaceful over turn, but to me that does not change that Kelsier could have used his resources to make his moves less bloody. How? 43 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: And it certainly doesn't change his outlook that if you have anything to do with the nobles, regardless whether you are noble or skaa yourself, you deserve to die. He expressed this view but he did not act on it. His missions to kill people at the very least were always strategic rather then emotionally motivated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 15 hours ago, Karger said: Yeah but whitch does the ministry have more interaction with? Their primary job is to police the nobility who also have a much larger number of mistlings. I guess, but for myself that does not change that demonstrates the capabilities for espionage and detection. For myself, just because they may focus more on one group overtly than another, does not for myself preclude their effectiveness with another. But that is just my own understanding of it. 15 hours ago, Karger said: Nobles are the only people worth stealing from. There are no other countries to run to and just existing and having power is a death sentence. The odds are still stacked against the minstlings even if the ministry is fairly incompetent. Just to clarify, I am not saying the steel ministry is incompetent nor am I saying Kelsier is incompetent. For myself, you can be completely competent in your field and still be outmaneuvered by someone else. I believe for an organization to be as extensive as the steel ministry, that spies in the underground would be par for the course. I also believe for a thief that is able to operate right under the lord ruler's nose for ages, and only got caught when he got greedy and went after the lord ruler himself, that Kelsier could if he wanted to, make plans to minimize fatalities. But not only did he not go that route, he as per his own words, enacted a campaign of death to any associated with the nobility. He actively chose that route when he did not have to. I will quote Marsh below regarding your later comments for reference. But again, just responding to your query to me, and explaining my own understanding. I do not wish to belabor any points. 15 hours ago, Karger said: Tattoos may hurt but they are not in the same class as regular beatings that endanger life, malnutrition and a host of other problems caused by poor sanitation. True, though nobility normally under go that to snap. They are beat within an inch of their lives to see if they are allomancers. As to malnutrition and a host of other problems, Vin was low key burning pewter. Dockson/Kelsier comments on this. That she was doing it without realizing it and that helped her deal with the beatings. 15 hours ago, Karger said: Afterward they can be mind controlled. But as evidenced by the Inquistor leader, there is at least one example of an inquisitor eagerly wanting to join the ranks. Marsh is unique in that he is the only one of the group that rebelled. The Lord Ruler was surprised because he saw it as making him better. The leader of the inquisitors seems to share this view. So you have acolytes knowing what they are getting into, eagerly seeking power. For myself, if getting spikes driven through me is not enough to deter me from being an inquisitor, then a few months in deep cover would be a cake walk. 15 hours ago, Karger said: That is done to them as children. This is not something they sign up for. From what I recall it is done at varying ages, but it is something that is expected, and they go into with eyes open. They know why it is done, and they take it as that's just what happened. It is viewed as normal. 15 hours ago, Karger said: If Vin could not burn pewter she would likely be dead. That is too much. Also consider her age and gender. Right, she mitigated the effects with unconcious pewter burn. Why couldn't a real agent do that? 15 hours ago, Karger said: At his point I am not really sure why we are debating this. I don't know, because I am genuinely confused. That is why I requested you explain what point you were getting at again. I figured I would ask you to clarify instead of just responding, so I could better respond. 15 hours ago, Karger said: As capable as Elend? Breaking up a political structure that is not too stable to begin with through a combination misinformation and assassination is not even in the same ballpark as enacting lasting political change. Honestly probably better than Elend. Not to be cynical, but it is demonstrated in the novels that his honesty is what doomed his rule. He could have not pointed out the loop hole in his re-election and he would have been the leader. He literally wrote the rules himself. He could have done all sorts of things, but he was very altruistic (which I think is a great quality) and it resulted in him getting kicked out. Kelsier I think could have accomplished far more with his manipulations, bribing, and back alley dealings. 15 hours ago, Karger said: How? Used bribery and information to get snuck into places instead of bulling through head on. He is an assassin. A common challenge in stealth video games is those that go through killing everyone, and those who seek to "ghost" through, avoiding everyone except their target. Frequently you get additional points. Now life is not a video game, but does it not demonstrate true skill to get into someplace and get out all without a single sign of being there? Versus leaving a bloody trail in your wake? He ran plenty of jobs in the past without blood when he was just a normal skaa without his mistborn powers. Why couldn't he use his powers to accomplish less bloody goals? Or to put it another way, less collateral damage? 15 hours ago, Karger said: He expressed this view but he did not act on it. His missions to kill people at the very least were always strategic rather then emotionally motivated. Totally respect your view, but this quote says otherwise to me. He killed men, including skaa, all because they were employed by a nobleman. That was enough to damnation them. The man he is referring to that he pushed off a wall? All he was doing was standing on the wall, looking out. We don't know if that man beat up skaa. Or if that man went home to a family, and used the money to feed his kids. Kelsier could have easily snuck in without them knowing, but he chose to make a spectacle and make it bloody. I could pull up the scene and quote that too if you like. But again, that is just my own reading of the character. To each their own.  "What is this?" Kelsier asked, picking it up "The names of the eleven men you slaughtered last night" Marsh said "I thought you might at least want to know" Kelsier tossed the paper into the crackling hearth "They served the Final Empire" "They were men, Kelsier" Marsh snapped "They had lives, families. Several of them were skaa" "Traitors" "People" Marsh said "people who were just trying to do the best with what life gave them" "Well, I'm just doing the same thing" Kelsier said "And, fortunately, life gave me the ability to push men like them off the tops of buildings. If they want to stand against me like noblemen, then they can die like noblemen" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Right, she mitigated the effects with unconcious pewter burn. Why couldn't a real agent do that? I think that the ministry would have an extraordinarily hard time getting a female thug from a noble family who was getting ready to be married to become a secret agent and investigate the mistling underground. Not only do the inquisitors tend to take care of most of it but assigning such an agent(who must be in very short supply) to monitor somthing they did not know was yet a major threat is super overkill even for them. 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: But as evidenced by the Inquistor leader, there is at least one example of an inquisitor eagerly wanting to join the ranks. Marsh is unique in that he is the only one of the group that rebelled. The Lord Ruler was surprised because he saw it as making him better. The leader of the inquisitors seems to share this view. So you have acolytes knowing what they are getting into, eagerly seeking power. For myself, if getting spikes driven through me is not enough to deter me from being an inquisitor, then a few months in deep cover would be a cake walk. Their perception changes after they are spiked. They seem to become more Ruiny. They might actually enjoy the pain at that point. 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: I don't know, because I am genuinely confused. That is why I requested you explain what point you were getting at again. I figured I would ask you to clarify instead of just responding, so I could better respond. You misunderstand. I am equally confused. 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Honestly probably better than Elend. Not to be cynical, but it is demonstrated in the novels that his honesty is what doomed his rule. He could have not pointed out the loop hole in his re-election and he would have been the leader. He literally wrote the rules himself. He could have done all sorts of things, but he was very altruistic (which I think is a great quality) and it resulted in him getting kicked out. Kelsier I think could have accomplished far more with his manipulations, bribing, and back alley dealings. If Elend and his cronies had come of age they could have done quite a lot. Remember their authority was legitimate and legal. Kelsier's never could be. 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Why couldn't he use his powers to accomplish less bloody goals? Or to put it another way, less collateral damage? He was making a political point. It was an act of for lack of better word terrorism. Using fear and threat of force to pass a political agenda. 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: "Well, I'm just doing the same thing" Kelsier said "And, fortunately, life gave me the ability to push men like them off the tops of buildings. If they want to stand against me like noblemen, then they can die like noblemen" That is his political point to the Skaa. Fighting against me is not going to be safer then fighting for me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 2 hours ago, Karger said: I think that the ministry would have an extraordinarily hard time getting a female thug from a noble family who was getting ready to be married to become a secret agent and investigate the mistling underground. Not only do the inquisitors tend to take care of most of it but assigning such an agent(who must be in very short supply) to monitor somthing they did not know was yet a major threat is super overkill even for them. Personally I disagree. We know there are female inquisitors. We know there are female mistborn (Shan) as well as female mistings in noble houses. We know Inquisitors recruit from noble houses, and we know inquisitors prefer mistings/mistborn. So for myself, I do not see female misting/mistborn agents being in short supply. 2 hours ago, Karger said: Their perception changes after they are spiked. They seem to become more Ruiny. They might actually enjoy the pain at that point. I know when Ruin was released Marsh was controlled and pushed, but he still held his usual self. Can you show me where this has come up? (just genuinely asking to learn something new) 2 hours ago, Karger said: You misunderstand. I am equally confused. Ok then I guess. 2 hours ago, Karger said: If Elend and his cronies had come of age they could have done quite a lot. Remember their authority was legitimate and legal. Kelsier's never could be. Kelsier could have manipulated the system, and used a "noble" as a puppet, and to me, accomplish far more. 2 hours ago, Karger said: He was making a political point. It was an act of for lack of better word terrorism. Using fear and threat of force to pass a political agenda. Honestly again I am confused. When was Kelsier running for political office? I do recall him turning the houses against each other, but that could easily be accomplished without taking guard's lives, and leaving a bloody trail. 2 hours ago, Karger said: That is his political point to the Skaa. Fighting against me is not going to be safer then fighting for me. Still confused about the political point thing you are stating. As to the fighting against me versus for me, when did the guard he pushed off the wall have a chance to decide? He was just working to provide for all we know for his family. He didn't get a chance to find out there was a rebellion forming. He didn't get a chance to decide to follow Kelsier or not. Vin muses that Kelsier would have killed the guard to the Lord Ruler's palace. That guard that she spared. That guard that ended up voluntarily leaving, and joining the skaa. That guard that ended up passing along the message that helped save the world. Now again I am not equating save a life, save the world. But for myself at least, I feel it is written pretty clearly in the books regarding Kelsier. You don't get a choice. You don't get a chance. If you are associated with the nobility, you are worthy of death. Kelsier will kill you, even if he does not have to. He could have easily gained entry to that nobles home without killing that guard, but he chose to be bloody. Marsh comments as much. Killing guards and civilians on Kelsier's part, to me, is deliberate and a choice. The society and economy does not force him to push a guard to his death versus using another piece of metal to push off of. But again, I am just responding to your comments to my reading of the character. I do not wish to belabor the point or take over the conversation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: We know there are female mistborn (Shan) as well as female mistings in noble houses. We know Inquisitors recruit from noble houses, and we know inquisitors prefer mistings/mistborn. So for myself, I do not see female misting/mistborn agents being in short supply. You just listed several other major demands for mistborn and mistings. We also know that any alomancy was rare. 4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: I know when Ruin was released Marsh was controlled and pushed, but he still held his usual self. Can you show me where this has come up? (just genuinely asking to learn something new) I don't have the ebook right now but Marsh did have a much different attitude after becoming spiked and we know that inquisitors are not exactly human. 11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Kelsier could have manipulated the system, and used a "noble" as a puppet, and to me, accomplish far more. Kelsier liked the necessary idealism and I am also not sure that such an arrangement would be possible. Which noble would he use? What if said noble's friends or family caught on to the marked change in behavior. Also puppets have limited effectiveness. A reliable puppet has to be stupid or weak willed. Neither are workable for what Kelseir needs. 14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Honestly again I am confused. When was Kelsier running for political office? Physiological point and he was running for the office of god. He won the election too. 15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: I do recall him turning the houses against each other, but that could easily be accomplished without taking guard's lives, and leaving a bloody trail. First of all avoiding all the guards would have been difficult and dangerous. Kelsier could not afford to die before his plan was accomplished. Second of all it would have taken a lot of time. Thirdly it is much scarier that someone is strong enough to punch through your security without planing or subtlety and Kel needed them scared for his plan to work. 18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: As to the fighting against me versus for me, when did the guard he pushed off the wall have a chance to decide The next person who is thinking about taking a job as a guard will think twice. 18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Vin muses that Kelsier would have killed the guard to the Lord Ruler's palace. That guard that she spared. That guard that ended up voluntarily leaving, and joining the skaa At that point the Skaa were openly revolting. Those guards would have died without Vin's interference. Also Kel's orders had Breeze's soothers doing exactly the same thing as Vin so that they could take the city gates without casualties on either side so Vin might actually be wrong on this one. 20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: But again, I am just responding to your comments to my reading of the character. I do not wish to belabor the point or take over the conversation. Your reading of Kel is as far as I can tell accurate. I guess I just have a higher opinion of psychopathic narcissists then you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 6 minutes ago, Karger said: You just listed several other major demands for mistborn and mistings. We also know that any alomancy was rare. And they looked for those among the main group where that would be found. Nobility. I guess I just do not see how it would be so far fetched that the Steel Ministry that gathers mistings and mistborn from the nobility to join its ranks would have a problem picking a woman and either giving her discrete spikes to provide a few powers to register as a mistborn, or use a mistborn to infiltrate and dismantle the resistance. It is for you. I guess to each their own. 6 minutes ago, Karger said: I don't have the ebook right now but Marsh did have a much different attitude after becoming spiked and we know that inquisitors are not exactly human. From what I remember after he was just changed, he was still Marsh. It wasn't till Ruin really started to move, manipulate and ultimately was freed that Marsh changed. Marsh was certainly still himself enough to betray the steel inquisition and kill a number of his brothers as well as attempt to kill the lord ruler. 6 minutes ago, Karger said: Kelsier liked the necessary idealism and I am also not sure that such an arrangement would be possible. Which noble would he use? What if said noble's friends or family caught on to the marked change in behavior. Also puppets have limited effectiveness. A reliable puppet has to be stupid or weak willed. Neither are workable for what Kelseir needs. Personally I disagree. Through use of a noble figure head, with back ally dealings, and bribes, he could make what was once a minor house into a power house. That house could then be used to enact change. Now as I said to begin with, this change will be limited due to the Lord Ruler, but that still does not change to me that Kelsier could have taken a whole bunch of actions not as lethal and wanton, and still accomplish his goals. 6 minutes ago, Karger said: Physiological point and he was running for the office of god. He won the election too. Still confused. What does that have to do with his view that if you have anything to do with the nobility, you will die? 6 minutes ago, Karger said: First of all avoiding all the guards would have been difficult and dangerous. Kelsier could not afford to die before his plan was accomplished. Second of all it would have taken a lot of time. Thirdly it is much scarier that someone is strong enough to punch through your security without planing or subtlety and Kel needed them scared for his plan to work. Kelsier did that mission to steal atium. When he entered the grounds, he literally landed right near a guard surprising the guard. He then pulled on the armor and slit the guards throat. Personally I think he could have gotten over that wall all without the guard seeing him. And had he done so, he would not have gotten attacked by the hazekillers, resulting in him having to rip the entire safe out. He would have had the time to break in more subtly and get what he needed. 6 minutes ago, Karger said: The next person who is thinking about taking a job as a guard will think twice. But the first one didn't get a chance to think even once. Actually the first 11 as per Marsh. 6 minutes ago, Karger said: At that point the Skaa were openly revolting. Those guards would have died without Vin's interference. Also Kel's orders had Breeze's soothers doing exactly the same thing as Vin so that they could take the city gates without casualties on either side so Vin might actually be wrong on this one. Little confused on this one too. Vin approached the lord ruler's palace. She muses that Kelsier would have just gone up and killed them as he went in. In fact he did the last time he went in. Vin on the other hand gave them a chance to leave. Which they took. Are you suggesting that a rioting group approaching the palace would have attacked and killed them? Maybe. But had Vin not succeeded, then the inquisitors or the lord ruler would have shown up outside the palace and massacred the rioters. So for myself, the only differing factor in that scene is where Kelsier would have callously and without thought murdered them as being in the way. Vin gave them a choice, and they took it. 6 minutes ago, Karger said: Your reading of Kel is as far as I can tell accurate. I guess I just have a higher opinion of psychopathic narcissists then you. Personally that is not the way I would put it, but it may result in just arguing semantics so I guess? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: And they looked for those among the main group where that would be found. Nobility. I guess I just do not see how it would be so far fetched that the Steel Ministry that gathers mistings and mistborn from the nobility to join its ranks would have a problem picking a woman and either giving her discrete spikes to provide a few powers to register as a mistborn, or use a mistborn to infiltrate and dismantle the resistance. It is for you. I guess to each their own. They did not spike none inquisitors. If they did then someone could find out about hemalurgy. We are dealing with high demand and low supply and on top of that there is another group of people who have a higher motivation to do the same work. No one took the resistance seriously and no one new about the alliance between them and the mistling underground. By the laws of economics I find the idea that they wanted to infiltrate the resistance somewhat implausible. I find the belief that they would go to such lengths a step away from ludicrous. 17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: From what I remember after he was just changed, he was still Marsh. It wasn't till Ruin really started to move, manipulate and ultimately was freed that Marsh changed. Marsh was certainly still himself enough to betray the steel inquisition and kill a number of his brothers as well as attempt to kill the lord ruler. Check this quote. It is from hero of ages. Quote The wall inside of him cracked, then burst. For a moment, Vin felt a sense of vertigo. She saw things through Marsh's eyes—indeed, she felt like she understood him. His love of destruction, and his hatred of himself.  20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Personally I disagree. Through use of a noble figure head, with back ally dealings, and bribes, he could make what was once a minor house into a power house. That house could then be used to enact change. Now as I said to begin with, this change will be limited due to the Lord Ruler, but that still does not change to me that Kelsier could have taken a whole bunch of actions not as lethal and wanton, and still accomplish his goals. I reiterate. Where does Kelseir find such a figurehead with the necessary qualities that make him competent enough not to spoil everything but stupid enough to be a puppet? 21 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Still confused. What does that have to do with his view that if you have anything to do with the nobility, you will die? He was demonstrating and equal capacity for destruction as TLR while also preaching a message of hope. This indicates that he is as powerful as TLR and that his ideals are better. 23 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Kelsier did that mission to steal atium. When he entered the grounds, he literally landed right near a guard surprising the guard. He then pulled on the armor and slit the guards throat. Personally I think he could have gotten over that wall all without the guard seeing him Killing him was still safer. Imagine if Kelseir had died right then. 24 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: And had he done so, he would not have gotten attacked by the hazekillers, resulting in him having to rip the entire safe out He wanted the hazekillers to come out and to kill a few of them in a way that demonstrated that he was a mistborn as the first step in his house war plan. The atium might actually have been secondary. 26 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: But the first one didn't get a chance to think even once. Actually the first 11 as per Marsh. That is a problem yes but his ultimate goal was still selfless. 28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Vin gave them a choice, and they took it. and Kelsier in his last orders gave the gate gaurds of Luthadel the same choice and even helped them along so that they would not die. 28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Personally that is not the way I would put it, but it may result in just arguing semantics so I guess? How would you put it? I try not to argue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 17 minutes ago, Karger said: They did not spike none inquisitors. If they did then someone could find out about hemalurgy. We are dealing with high demand and low supply and on top of that there is another group of people who have a higher motivation to do the same work. No one took the resistance seriously and no one new about the alliance between them and the mistling underground. By the laws of economics I find the idea that they wanted to infiltrate the resistance somewhat implausible. I find the belief that they would go to such lengths a step away from ludicrous. Not to be obtuse, but could you tell me where you read that? Cause I cannot recall. I don't remember it saying anywhere that you were either spiked fully, or not at all, and the reason for that was to keep hemalurgy a secret. So genuinely asking Guess I respect that you find it implausible. For myself, I think it is perfectly plausible. To me they have the resources, they have the means, they have the infrastructure, and they have the reason to. But I guess to each their own. 17 minutes ago, Karger said: Check this quote. It is from hero of ages. Right. That is after Ruin was freed and he was controlling Marsh. Which is what I thought I said. That when Ruin started manipulating, and controlling the inquisitors, Marsh changed. But prior to that, which is what was normal at the time, Marsh was still Marsh. The Lord Ruler was still alive, and still keeping Ruin in check. Which would be the scenario that would be in existence had Vin been a spy. 17 minutes ago, Karger said: I reiterate. Where does Kelseir find such a figurehead with the necessary qualities that make him competent enough not to spoil everything but stupid enough to be a puppet? The other two houses that wanted to ally with Elend? I forget the house names exactly. I think Lukiel or Tekiel? One of them was certainly weak and easily manipulated. He was the one that ultimately got his hands on the koloss, and was intimidated by Elend. I think the other one is pretty plausible too. 17 minutes ago, Karger said: He was demonstrating and equal capacity for destruction as TLR while also preaching a message of hope. This indicates that he is as powerful as TLR and that his ideals are better. To me, comparing a torch to a campfire if mishandled still gets you burned. Personally that does not change Kelsier's focus on killing anyone associated with the nobility, and personally that does not change that I feel Kelsier could have accomplished his goals and not result in as much collateral damage. 17 minutes ago, Karger said: Killing him was still safer. Imagine if Kelseir had died right then. Had the guard not known Kelsier was there at all it would have been even safer. The hazekillers would not have been alerted and surrounded Kelsier. He could have gotten in and out without a single casualty. Personally I think that would have been safer. 17 minutes ago, Karger said: He wanted the hazekillers to come out and to kill a few of them in a way that demonstrated that he was a mistborn as the first step in his house war plan. The atium might actually have been secondary. And I argue he could have accomplished that without the wanton death of the guards. He could have stole the atium, and killed specifically nobility in their beds, and accomplished the same goal without the collateral damage of the guards. In my opinion. 17 minutes ago, Karger said: That is a problem yes but his ultimate goal was still selfless. Marsh disagreed. Marsh stated it was always about Kelsier and his ego/revenge. Kelsier claimed it was not. But to me his actions speak otherwise. 17 minutes ago, Karger said: and Kelsier in his last orders gave the gate gaurds of Luthadel the same choice and even helped them along so that they would not die. Just for my recollection could you reference the scene? 17 minutes ago, Karger said: How would you put it? I try not to argue. I don't see that I am thinking more or less of a narcissistic sociopath. I see it as I am trying to look at his actions objectively, in view of the character, and those actions and outlook in view of what type of person would do these things. (not saying anyone else is not looking at it objectively. Just how I would term my own reading). i think kelsier had a host of options, but he chose the most bloody and the one with the greatest collateral damage. I think that speaks a lot to the type of person he is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 22, 2020 Report Share Posted January 22, 2020 36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Not to be obtuse, but could you tell me where you read that? Cause I cannot recall. I don't remember it saying anywhere that you were either spiked fully, or not at all, and the reason for that was to keep hemalurgy a secret. So genuinely asking None of the obligators seemed to know about hemalugry. This includes trusted ones like Yomen who knew about seers and the atium catches. The rest I deduced. 37 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: To me they have the resources, they have the means, they have the infrastructure, and they have the reason to. But I guess to each their own. Resources, means and infrastructure are all limited. The basic idea of economics is scarcity. Let me provide an example. We have the resources to make a lunar colony we also have the means and infrastructure. We even have a reason to do so but we still have not done it. Why? Because we have other things we want to do more. You are giving the obligators a much higher level of interest in tracking the rebellion then they really displayed. Mistlings were tracked by inquisitors(with obligator help) for entirely different reasons. Marsh claimed that much of their time in fact was in scheming against each other and notes in his report areas where they suspect Mistling activity but not where they tracked reports of revolution. 44 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: And I argue he could have accomplished that without the wanton death of the guards. He could have stole the atium, and killed specifically nobility in their beds, and accomplished the same goal without the collateral damage of the guards. In my opinion. That would involve sneaking in and killing people who were likely much better guarded. Also a real mistborn nobel would not have had any reason to avoid killing guards. The wanton destruction demonstrated his skill and willingness to use lethal force in the attack which caused house Venture to go beserk. 46 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Kelsier could have accomplished his goals and not result in as much collateral damage 47 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Marsh disagreed. Marsh stated it was always about Kelsier and his ego/revenge. Kelsier claimed it was not. But to me his actions speak otherwise. Marsh believed fighting was pointless as such any action Kel took that resulted in death was to him essentially killing out of frustration. Kel literally died for the cause. I also do not think you have given me a reasonable alternate way in which Kelseir could accomplished his goals. I also do see any death that he caused that was not at least overtly strategic in nature. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 23, 2020 Report Share Posted January 23, 2020 20 hours ago, Karger said: None of the obligators seemed to know about hemalugry. This includes trusted ones like Yomen who knew about seers and the atium catches. The rest I deduced. No one knew that the lord ruler had a specific kandra that knew more hemalurgy than others, but Paalm was still possible. The Lord Ruler made Koloss and Kandra who are also hemalurgic creations that the general populace knows about without worrying about hemalurgy being revealed. Inquisitors run around with spikes clearly shown in their eyes and they do not worry about people finding out about how hemalurgy works. It is an extremely precise process that requires the proper intent. So for myself, I do not believe that information precludes spies who are spikes slightly. 20 hours ago, Karger said: Resources, means and infrastructure are all limited. The basic idea of economics is scarcity. Let me provide an example. We have the resources to make a lunar colony we also have the means and infrastructure. We even have a reason to do so but we still have not done it. Why? Because we have other things we want to do more. You are giving the obligators a much higher level of interest in tracking the rebellion then they really displayed. Mistlings were tracked by inquisitors(with obligator help) for entirely different reasons. Marsh claimed that much of their time in fact was in scheming against each other and notes in his report areas where they suspect Mistling activity but not where they tracked reports of revolution. Personally I feel you are exaggerating the issues at hand. Hemalurgic spikes can and have been re-used. Inquistor spikes, although require a lynch pin spike at a certain point, aren't an all or nothing thing. The body adjusts. In fact further spikes can be added gradually as Ruin has done when he comes into power. The steel ministry controls the legal system. They control the greatest economical resource (atium), and they gather their members from the nobility that has the greatest source of allomancers. Personally I do not see any reason why they could not have agents that are spiked gradually to be more effective, till they are fully turned into inquisitors. As to the rebellion, I mentioned earlier that they always retreat to the caves (the ones Kelsier later uses for that purpose) because it takes too many resources to track down everyone in the caves. To me it would be more cost effective to send a mole and end the resistance in one go, than that. But I understand that your opinion sees things differently. 20 hours ago, Karger said: That would involve sneaking in and killing people who were likely much better guarded. Also a real mistborn nobel would not have had any reason to avoid killing guards. The wanton destruction demonstrated his skill and willingness to use lethal force in the attack which caused house Venture to go beserk. For myself, I do not think nobility would care one whit about a guards loss of life. If anything they would be more upset that their security was so easily passed, and even more scared that their people are being gunned for directly. Kelsier made it into the personal study of the lord of that keep. He woke up the whole house hold and had hazekillers surround him. To me he would have accomplished far more otherwise. But to each their own. 20 hours ago, Karger said: Marsh believed fighting was pointless as such any action Kel took that resulted in death was to him essentially killing out of frustration. Kel literally died for the cause. I also do not think you have given me a reasonable alternate way in which Kelseir could accomplished his goals. I also do see any death that he caused that was not at least overtly strategic in nature. The rest of the scene reads differently for me:  "This isn't about a cause Kelsier. It's about revenge. It's about you, just like everything always is. I'll believe that you aren't after the money - I'll even believe that you intend to deliver yeden this army he's apparently paying you for. but I won't believe that you care"  For myself I think I have provided plenty of reasonable ways for Kelsier to accomplish his goals. You disagree, which you are totally entitled to. For myself he did not have to kill those guards. But to each their own. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 23, 2020 Report Share Posted January 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: I do not believe that information precludes spies who are spikes slightly. A slightly spiked spy would not be under TLR's control and could go out and give the secret to whoever they wanted. Also exactly what would you need such a spy for? You have Kandra who are excellently suited to such a task. Exactly how often do you need to infiltrate a group such as Kelseir's? Considering the expense(in Mistling lives) and the risk. I would actually consider it rather foolish for TLR to engage in such an activity. We also have no evidence of such a spy and on top of that neither did Kelseir so why would he think to check for one? The remote possibility that such a spy could exist would be to him as equally likely as TLR having several clones of himself unless something happened to him imprisoned in a dungeon somewhere. 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: To me it would be more cost effective to send a mole and end the resistance in one go, than that. But I understand that your opinion sees things differently. If TLR wanted to do such a thing he already would have done so. Remember the resistance has been there for so long that to Kelsier's crew it is common knowledge and none of them have any personal interest in knowing. 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: For myself, I do not think nobility would care one whit about a guards loss of life Straff Venture being the absolute smuck that he is would obviously not have cared about them dying. He would however have cared a lot that his highly trained security force was absolutely worthless. 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: If anything they would be more upset that their security was so easily passed, and even more scared that their people are being gunned for directly A thief with no political agenda would avoid hurting guards and engaging in combat at all both because of the risk and because they did not want to antagonize house Ventrure. People might assume that the Mistborn just desperately needed atium for some reason. An assassin would be willing to kill guards if their goal was to kill Straff or a member of his family. 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: "This isn't about a cause Kelsier. It's about revenge. It's about you, just like everything always is. I'll believe that you aren't after the money - I'll even believe that you intend to deliver yeden this army he's apparently paying you for. but I won't believe that you care" Marsh does not know Kelseir anymore. Kelseir is a different person. 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: For myself I think I have provided plenty of reasonable ways for Kelsier to accomplish his goals. You disagree, which you are totally entitled to. For myself he did not have to kill those guards. But to each their own. You did not reply to my point of the problems of using a puppet. I have made a verity of points about Kelseir's rational for killing the guards any of which could excuse or mitigate the problematic nature of his actions. For the rest let me offer this. Can you honestly say you think that if you were in Kelseir's place with his full depth of experiences and capability that you would not either be insane, dead, or a monster and that your planned rebellion would succeed? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 23, 2020 Report Share Posted January 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Karger said: A slightly spiked spy would not be under TLR's control and could go out and give the secret to whoever they wanted. Also exactly what would you need such a spy for? You have Kandra who are excellently suited to such a task. Exactly how often do you need to infiltrate a group such as Kelseir's? Considering the expense(in Mistling lives) and the risk. I would actually consider it rather foolish for TLR to engage in such an activity. We also have no evidence of such a spy and on top of that neither did Kelseir so why would he think to check for one? The remote possibility that such a spy could exist would be to him as equally likely as TLR having several clones of himself unless something happened to him imprisoned in a dungeon somewhere. Three spikes is the limit before Harmony can control you easily for a human. Not a hemalurgic construct. Human. Vin needed duralumin because she was not as strong an allomancer as they once were. Elend could do it much easily due to becoming a mistborn via the bead. I would imagine the Lord Ruler could do so even easier. I already mentioned Kandra in regards to Paalm. She could infiltrate and use allomancy/feruchemy. They have spying stations throughout the city. That is evidence to me. Again, the original reason for this premise was that the rationale presented was that the reason Kelsier kills civilians is to remain the appearance of a strong crew leader. Vin would be the exception to this rule. I was asking why when Kelsier knew nothing about her and she could have just as easily been a spy. The rest was a very long rabbit hole that hasn't changed anything for myself. I think Vin the spy is plausible. You do not. To each their own. 1 minute ago, Karger said: If TLR wanted to do such a thing he already would have done so. Remember the resistance has been there for so long that to Kelsier's crew it is common knowledge and none of them have any personal interest in knowing. Marsh said their past attempts constantly failed. How does Kelsier know it hasn't already happened and it just has not gotten caught? That Vin is the latest spy to dismantle the resistence? 1 minute ago, Karger said: Straff Venture being the absolute smuck that he is would obviously not have cared about them dying. He would however have cared a lot that his highly trained security force was absolutely worthless. Exactly. Which would still have accomplished the goal of freaking out the houses and suspecting a house war 1 minute ago, Karger said: A thief with no political agenda would avoid hurting guards and engaging in combat at all both because of the risk and because they did not want to antagonize house Ventrure. People might assume that the Mistborn just desperately needed atium for some reason. An assassin would be willing to kill guards if their goal was to kill Straff or a member of his family. I think a thief could have a political agenda and not harm the guards. Proving he is better than the nobility that treats them so horribly. 1 minute ago, Karger said: Marsh does not know Kelseir anymore. Kelseir is a different person. You could say that. I could also say Marsh knows Kelsier better than everyone else and sees him for what he truly is. 1 minute ago, Karger said: You did not reply to my point of the problems of using a puppet. I have made a verity of points about Kelseir's rational for killing the guards any of which could excuse or mitigate the problematic nature of his actions. For the rest let me offer this. Can you honestly say you think that if you were in Kelseir's place with his full depth of experiences and capability that you would not either be insane, dead, or a monster and that your planned rebellion would succeed? I thought I did? You asked who Kelsier could use. I gave two examples. I thought I also already replied to the rationale? That going in stealthy could have accomplished far more. As to your question. The way you wrote it is a bit confusing. Please clarify. Are you saying that if I went through Kelsier's experiences, I would be either insane, dead or a monster? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 23, 2020 Report Share Posted January 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Pathfinder said: They have spying stations throughout the city. That is evidence to me. Soothing stations. These may have been implemented a number of years ago and could have a number of uses beyond what we saw. Making sure the skaa don't panic if there is a giant fire for example. 3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: The rest was a very long rabbit hole that hasn't changed anything for myself. I think Vin the spy is plausible. You do not. To each their own. Pretty much anything is plausible if you are the god emperor. However if TLR did not engage in an activity regularly Kelseir would not have known how to anticipate him. However the entire setup is rather impractical unless you know who Marsh is and that he and Kelseir are brothers. If you know that then you can probably get in a regular person mole quite easily by torturing a recruitment station for the resistant out of Marsh and sending someone there undercover. After that you can send an inquisitor into the correct section of the caverns with a group of koloss. The whole spike a noble girl so that she can be beaten near to death hope that she can survive in the underground for a few weeks. Hope that she will be sent to scam Marsh and that Marsh detects her and alerts Dockson who alerts Kelsier is just too incongruous a plan to work. 11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: I think a thief could have a political agenda and not harm the guards. Proving he is better than the nobility that treats them so horribly. If he did not harm the guards people would assume that it was just a burglary and it would likely have been hushed up. 11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: You could say that. I could also say Marsh knows Kelsier better than everyone else and sees him for what he truly is. Marsh sort of disagrees with you. He admits that he might be wrong about Kelseir and that he has changed from the person he once was. On 1/22/2020 at 5:07 PM, Pathfinder said: The other two houses that wanted to ally with Elend? I forget the house names exactly. I think Lukiel or Tekiel? One of them was certainly weak and easily manipulated. He was the one that ultimately got his hands on the koloss, and was intimidated by Elend. I think the other one is pretty plausible too. Ahh sorry I missed these. I was confused that you just ignored my point after a while. Tekiel was only a younger son he would not be able to have the political effectiveness Kelseir needs. Lukiel proved himself something of an idiot but he also seems to react quickly and with little subtly. Remember one word to the wrong person and your puppet system breaks up and you and your allies have to run. 15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: As to your question. The way you wrote it is a bit confusing. Please clarify. Are you saying that if I went through Kelsier's experiences, I would be either insane, dead or a monster? Basically. I also point out that a rebellion lead by you would probably not succeed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 23, 2020 Report Share Posted January 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, Karger said: Soothing stations. These may have been implemented a number of years ago and could have a number of uses beyond what we saw. Making sure the skaa don't panic if there is a giant fire for example. Not just soothers in those stations. Marsh details includes copper clouds, and bronze seekers spying. They accomplish multiple goals. 7 minutes ago, Karger said: Pretty much anything is plausible if you are the god emperor. However if TLR did not engage in an activity regularly Kelseir would not have known how to anticipate him. However the entire setup is rather impractical unless you know who Marsh is and that he and Kelseir are brothers. If you know that then you can probably get in a regular person mole quite easily by torturing a recruitment station for the resistant out of Marsh and sending someone there undercover. After that you can send an inquisitor into the correct section of the caverns with a group of koloss. The whole spike a noble girl so that she can be beaten near to death hope that she can survive in the underground for a few weeks. Hope that she will be sent to scam Marsh and that Marsh detects her and alerts Dockson who alerts Kelsier is just too incongruous a plan to work. Getting confused again. I thought you said the reason you would not give someone some spikes versus all the spikes is then the lord ruler couldn't control them? 7 minutes ago, Karger said: If he did not harm the guards people would assume that it was just a burglary and it would likely have been hushed up. But I mentioned he would be killing the noble directly, instead of taking out the guards as collateral damage. 7 minutes ago, Karger said: Marsh sort of disagrees with you. He admits that he might be wrong about Kelseir and that he has changed from the person he once was. He says Kelsier was always a great liar. 7 minutes ago, Karger said: Ahh sorry I missed these. I was confused that you just ignored my point after a while. Tekiel was only a younger son he would not be able to have the political effectiveness Kelseir needs. Lukiel proved himself something of an idiot but he also seems to react quickly and with little subtly. Remember one word to the wrong person and your puppet system breaks up and you and your allies have to run. A younger son quickly becomes the first born when the elder has an "accident". One wrong word to the wrong person, and the rebellion falls apart but it worked. And again soothing, rioting, coupled with bribery to the right people, and assassination to others (without collateral damage) would accomplish it to me. 7 minutes ago, Karger said: Basically. I also point out that a rebellion lead by you would probably not succeed. Then I guess I am still confused because I believe Kelsier is insane, and depending on the circumstances is a monster. Whether he succeeds or not to me is immaterial. I think someone who is not a monster could succeed with the rebellion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 23, 2020 Report Share Posted January 23, 2020 Just now, Pathfinder said: Not just soothers in those stations. Marsh details includes copper clouds, and bronze seekers spying. They accomplish multiple goals. I assumed those are to prevent people from finding out about them but you are right maybe they also monitor the mistlings for the inquisitors. 1 minute ago, Pathfinder said: Getting confused again. I thought you said the reason you would not give someone some spikes versus all the spikes is then the lord ruler couldn't control them? That is one reason but you did not except it so I am trying to argue a different way in the hopes of convincing you. 2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: But I mentioned he would be killing the noble directly, instead of taking out the guards as collateral damage. I am not sure that that would be plausible. A noble would be much better guarded and could move through a bolt hole if the guards were alerted. Also Kelseir did actually need the atium. He had other goals there but he needed it. 4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: A younger son quickly becomes the first born when the elder has an "accident". True but people tend not to like you after you arrange for such an "accident." Also people get suspicious when the younger brother makes a foray into politics after the death of the expected heir. In any case you would also have to kill the parents at which point the ministry WILL investigate. 6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: And again soothing, rioting, coupled with bribery to the right people, and assassination to others (without collateral damage) would accomplish it to me. Bribery of noble families is expensive. Soothing and rioting are likely ineffective against well trained political players and if your plan goes wrong collateral damage will be felt on the global scale as skaa everywhere loose rights and some are randomly executed. Also even well trained assassinations often have some collateral damage. Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand's was extremely well planed but his wife was not supposed to die and she was still killed. 9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Then I guess I am still confused because I believe Kelsier is insane, and depending on the circumstances is a monster. Whether he succeeds or not to me is immaterial. I think someone who is not a monster could succeed with the rebellion. My point was do you honestly think that you yourself with the same experiences and capacity but different ethics and personality could do better and remain sane and not a monster.  0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 24, 2020 Report Share Posted January 24, 2020 16 hours ago, Karger said: That is one reason but you did not except it so I am trying to argue a different way in the hopes of convincing you. Honestly my goal was not to convince you to see things my way. I was just explaining why I see things my way, and when you responded saying it is different, I just explained why I do not think it is. If you are trying to convince me to change my mind about Kelsier, I do not think that will occur. Not that I am being stubborn or obstinate, but because I feel based on what I have seen of the character, it gives me a pretty strong impression of him. So it would take a whole lot more to change my mind about him. But that is just my own opinion. 16 hours ago, Karger said: I am not sure that that would be plausible. A noble would be much better guarded and could move through a bolt hole if the guards were alerted. Also Kelseir did actually need the atium. He had other goals there but he needed it. Right, if the guards were alerted. Which they wouldn't have had Kelsier tried the stealth route instead of killing guards willy nilly. That's my point. In my opinion Kelsier could have gotten the atium easier, and taken out the noble resulting in the same goals accomplished more effectively without the needless collateral damage. That for myself he actively chose to go the bloody path. Maybe another example could illustrate better? Stormlight Archive spoilers below Spoiler Szeth. In the beginning he was commanded to make a spectacle and make sure everyone sees him. Later when given the option to go stealthy/non-lethal, he gets in without killing anyone. He uses his powers for subterfuge and distraction. The most he does is knock two guards unconscious. 16 hours ago, Karger said: True but people tend not to like you after you arrange for such an "accident." Also people get suspicious when the younger brother makes a foray into politics after the death of the expected heir. In any case you would also have to kill the parents at which point the ministry WILL investigate. Younger sons are viewed as a problem in all sorts of real world and fictional royal situations. The second son is a back up if the first son dies, but if the first son grows to maturity then the second son is a problem. The second son could, seeking the throne or head of family, could arrange an accident himself. They could gather supporters and arrange a coup. I do not think it would be hard at all for Kelsier to find a sympathetic second son gunning for first place. And that is even assuming the second son knows the accident was on purpose and Kelsier did it. There are all sorts of ways to arrange an accident that even the second son could believe. Again, Kelsier would not only be dealing with the noble. He would have other contacts being the thief crew leader that he is. And why would the steel ministry investigate? Wasn't the whole point of the house war was because the Lord Ruler lets them get at each others throats every so often to get it out of their system? 16 hours ago, Karger said: Bribery of noble families is expensive. Soothing and rioting are likely ineffective against well trained political players and if your plan goes wrong collateral damage will be felt on the global scale as skaa everywhere loose rights and some are randomly executed. Also even well trained assassinations often have some collateral damage. Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand's was extremely well planed but his wife was not supposed to die and she was still killed. The rebellion is just as risky. That is why they planned ways to prevent the koloss and the army from being involved. All the risks you mentioned are just as viable in the rebellion that Kelsier created as is. The only difference I am adding is additional ways that would not result in Kelsier killing anyone he comes across, because it is not a requirement. He can (to me) accomplish all his goals just as easily, or in some cases easier without the collateral damage. Those guards did not have to die. Kelsier chose to kill them as an extracurricular activity. 16 hours ago, Karger said: My point was do you honestly think that you yourself with the same experiences and capacity but different ethics and personality could do better and remain sane and not a monster.  Theoretically yes. Brandon has said Kelsier has always had this side in him and channeled it through his thievery. The pits just set it off. It gave him the additional tools for this side of him to use. So theoretically I think had another person gone through what Kelsier did and came out the other side :::cough Vin cough cough:::, I think they could have remained sane (relatively) and not become a monster. I do not feel Kelsier is a product of his environment. I feel Kelsier's darker compulsions come out depending on the environment he is in. But those darker compulsions I feel are all Kelsier from the get go. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 24, 2020 Report Share Posted January 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Honestly my goal was not to convince you to see things my way. I was just explaining why I see things my way, and when you responded saying it is different, I just explained why I do not think it is. If you are trying to convince me to change my mind about Kelsier, I do not think that will occur. Not that I am being stubborn or obstinate, but because I feel based on what I have seen of the character, it gives me a pretty strong impression of him. So it would take a whole lot more to change my mind about him. But that is just my own opinion. I find your attitude irritating to be brutally honest. If you are not willing to change your mind in the face of evidence then I see a no real point in us talking past each other. For the record I think that if you had made a convincing point during our discussion I would be willing to change my mind. 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Right, if the guards were alerted. Which they wouldn't have had Kelsier tried the stealth route instead of killing guards willy nilly Imagine he is located at the end of a long hallway. Exactly how does he sneak through that hallway without killing anyone or dying? 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Stormlight Archive spoilers below Spoiler He can go strait through walls! Kelseir can't 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: . The second son could, seeking the throne or head of family, could arrange an accident himse. The ministry monitors the nobility closely. This is their main function. 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: The second son could, seeking the throne or head of family, could arrange an accident himself They could also be married off same as daughters that no one arranges accidents for. Additionally noble houses engaged in trade. They were primarily financial not feudal organizations. Especially at higher levels. As such you need trusted people to do bookkeeping and deal making. Unlike with landownership this requires more then one person and a household guard. 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: The only difference I am adding is additional ways that would not result in Kelsier killing anyone he comes across, because it is not a requirement So the only difference between the two scenarios are the deaths that Kelseir has a personal responsibility for? On a global scale the results are identical? 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Theoretically yes. Brandon has said Kelsier has always had this side in him and channeled it through his thievery. The pits just set it off. It gave him the additional tools for this side of him to use. So theoretically I think had another person gone through what Kelsier did and came out the other side :::cough Vin cough cough:::, I think they could have remained sane (relatively) and not become a monster. I do not feel Kelsier is a product of his environment. I feel Kelsier's darker compulsions come out depending on the environment he is in. But those darker compulsions I feel are all Kelsier from the get go. If Vin had not met Kelsier and had become a Mistborn we know from her gold burning scene that she would have been completely friendless and from this I deduce that she would have accomplished absolutely nothing. Also Vin does not share your ethics. She was willing to kill Cett's mercenaries on the way to killing him. Yeah she felt bad afterward but that was at least in part because the experience was traumatizing and she is preservation aligned. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 24, 2020 Report Share Posted January 24, 2020 21 minutes ago, Karger said: I find your attitude irritating to be brutally honest. If you are not willing to change your mind in the face of evidence then I see a no real point in us talking past each other. For the record I think that if you had made a convincing point during our discussion I would be willing to change my mind. Sorry to clarify, I did not mean to say (or come across) that I was unwilling to change my mind in face of evidence. What I meant to convey is that for myself, their is copious amounts of evidence that support, to me, how I feel. And it would take a rather large and dramatic piece of information that I have not known of to be presented to change that. To put another way just to illustrate, not meant to be taken literal but lets say there are 10 big things that I have seen in the books and stated by the author that lead me to believe this way. What that has been presented (to me) has not changed those 10 big things in the slightest. Which is why I do not see this resulting in me being convinced. Also I was attempting to clarify that I was not intending to change your mind. This thread is "is kelsier a monster". I stated I think he is in regards to the situations he finds himself, and then explained why. If that does not work for you, that is totally fine. It can totally not work for you. Just like it can work for me. One of us does not have to change the other ones mind in order to discuss it. At least that is how I was intending to go about it. 21 minutes ago, Karger said: Imagine he is located at the end of a long hallway. Exactly how does he sneak through that hallway without killing anyone or dying?  Reveal hidden contents He can go strait through walls! Kelseir can't He could use his allomancy to create a noise to cause a distraction. Then picking a point in the hallway that is high up and shadowed, use a pull and push to keep him suspended against the ceiling. Also since Kelsier is especially good with pushes and pulls, he could maintain the push and crawl across the ceiling while the guard goes to the source of the sound. Hiding against the ceiling was done in the novels. I will need to pull up the scene though. 21 minutes ago, Karger said: The ministry monitors the nobility closely. This is their main function. Right. Never said they wouldn't realize someone made an "Accident". What I am saying is they wouldn't care. It would just be par for the course. Kelsier and co said as much. Which is why they worked the housewar angle. They knew the lord ruler would do nothing. 21 minutes ago, Karger said: They could also be married off same as daughters that no one arranges accidents for. Additionally noble houses engaged in trade. They were primarily financial not feudal organizations. Especially at higher levels. As such you need trusted people to do bookkeeping and deal making. Unlike with landownership this requires more then one person and a household guard. True they could be married off. Or the younger son could be power hungry and eye the spot his brother has. There was a short story Brandon wrote for the mistborn rpg I believe, where there were two sons of a land owning noble. They looked at each other with competition in their minds, and the father berated any mistakes and threatened dis-inheritance. So from what I read such practices were very real in the final empire. 21 minutes ago, Karger said: So the only difference between the two scenarios are the deaths that Kelseir has a personal responsibility for? On a global scale the results are identical? I am saying the death of those guards (in my opinion) neither made Kelsier's rebellion successful nor would them being spared make Kelsier's rebellion fail. To me it was not necessary. 21 minutes ago, Karger said: If Vin had not met Kelsier and had become a Mistborn we know from her gold burning scene that she would have been completely friendless and from this I deduce that she would have accomplished absolutely nothing. So Kelsier killing those guards is excused because he helped Vin? Or another way of putting it, Kelsier was able to help Vin because he killed those guards? Personally I do not think that is the case. 21 minutes ago, Karger said: Also Vin does not share your ethics. She was willing to kill Cett's mercenaries on the way to killing him. Yeah she felt bad afterward but that was at least in part because the experience was traumatizing and she is preservation aligned. Vin was not willing to kill Cett's mercenaries to kill him. Her great dilemma during that time was she feared she was nothing more than a weapon good for killing. I think in some ways she was afraid of becoming like Kelsier. Zane played on that fear, and manipulated her into believing Cett and his guards threatened Elend and everything he built. Zane also soothed/rioted Vin while manipulating her. So I believe had Vin not been manipulated and pushed by Zane, she would not have chosen to kill those guards. And the fact that she did feel horrible after (while Kelsier holds no remorse, even when told they were skaa, the people he claimed he wanted to protect/save), is what I think separates her from Kelsier. She went through as much is not worse than Kelsier, and still came out the other side better than her enemy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted January 24, 2020 Report Share Posted January 24, 2020 13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Sorry to clarify, I did not mean to say (or come across) that I was unwilling to change my mind in face of evidence. What I meant to convey is that for myself, their is copious amounts of evidence that support, to me, how I feel. And it would take a rather large and dramatic piece of information that I have not known of to be presented to change that That makes more sense, thank you. 13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: He could use his allomancy to create a noise to cause a distraction. Then picking a point in the hallway that is high up and shadowed, use a pull and push to keep him suspended against the ceiling. Also since Kelsier is especially good with pushes and pulls, he could maintain the push and crawl across the ceiling while the guard goes to the source of the sound. Hiding against the ceiling was done in the novels. I will need to pull up the scene though. You have watched too many movies. I highly doubt a well trained security force would leave a door unguarded where their employer sleeps even to investigate something suspicious. Someone as paranoid as Straff would have several guards and likely at least a few alomancers around. 17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Right. Never said they wouldn't realize someone made an "Accident". What I am saying is they wouldn't care. It would just be par for the course. Kelsier and co said as much. Which is why they worked the housewar angle. They knew the lord ruler would do nothing. Alright you now have an ambitious fool in charge of his house. What is your next move? 18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: So Kelsier killing those guards is excused because he helped Vin? Or another way of putting it, Kelsier was able to help Vin because he killed those guards? Personally I do not think that is the case. My first point was that Kelsier's total actions lead to Vin become who she was and were a net positive for her personally and the people globally. My other point was that without Kel Vin would never become Vin so she would not have been able to lead the rebellion. 20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: And the fact that she did feel horrible after (while Kelsier holds no remorse, even when told they were skaa, the people he claimed he wanted to protect/save), The fact that she feels horrible afterward is a textbook case of PTSD. If you are going to give Vin credit for the feelings caused by that then it stands to reason that you should excuse the feelings Kel does not have because he is a psychopath. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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