Is Kelsier a Monster?

[Pathfinder]

9 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

No, I’m saying that in war the other side is your enemy. Someone helping the war effort is no longer a civilian; they are a collaborator and, thus, an enemy. That doesn’t mean that they all need to be killed; generally the idea is to force a surrender. 

I said that I understand Kell’s anger. I also said that when you are fighting for survival you don’t have time to figure out if THIS person was sympathetic to your cause. To put it another way: if someone had Kell’s powers during WW2, the obvious thing to do would be to kill the enemy leaders and generals. Funny thing - several of them were trying to kill Hitler. And Rommel, apparently, missed the memo entirely, if his suggestion in 1942! to reinstate the Jewish soldiers is any indication. Did they all deserve to die? Most of them did, but some individuals didn’t. But that isn’t something you can know, or even consider, when fighting a war.

Kell is fighting a war. The Nobles are ALL subjugating the Skaa. None of them, except the youngest, are truly innocent. Many are sympathetic. Many more are products of their environment. Most don’t deserve to die. But war isn't about deserving. War is about surviving and defeating your enemies.

Kell wasn’t planning to kill all the Nobles. He didn’t CARE if all the people subjugating him ended up dead (so long as TLR did, and the Nobles were overthrown), and he felt that collaborators were enemies and should be killed - which I don’t entirely disagree with, though I don’t think they all deserved to die. But that doesn’t make them less of an enemy. 

The Nobles and Skaa were at war. It’s just that most of them didn’t notice. And from the perspective of the Skaa, there were no good Nobles. Better ones, but not good ones. And the Nobles, for the most part, considered the Skaa as little better than animals.

So yes, I understand Kell’s anger. That doesn’t mean I would be okay with him killing Nobles out of hand once the war is over. Once the war is over, you try the criminals. 

While the war is going on, it is perfectly reasonable to kill your enemies. It’s not like he was murdering children, who had no say in anything; the people Kell killed were all adults, passively following their society’s orders and beliefs. And that, in the context of the Skaa uprising, made them enemies, actively aiding and abetting the Skaa oppression. 

I guess then my question is what is considered "helping" enough to be considered the "enemy"? Being born into that country? If a child is very young (I think there were children as young as 8 or younger doing work. childhood as we understand it today is a new concept), and their parents teach that child to sew uniforms to help the house hold earn money. That child is helping the war effort. They do not understand how they are helping the war effort. They are not making uniforms with the intention of helping the war effort. They are making uniforms for mommy and daddy because it helps them eat. Should that child die? Ham, Clubs and Breeze and even Kelsier himself calls this into question. Ham and Clubs were soldiers in the Lord Ruler's army. By Kelsier's logic, they should have been killed. By their own, they only did what they could to exist, and raise a family. The guard to the noble's manor isn't trying to keep the skaa down. He is doing a job so he can exist. But to Kelsier he is the enemy that  supports the system and deserves to die. And he did in fact kill them. Vin chose not to, and that ultimately resulted in saving the world. Now I am not equating sparing a life to saving the world, that is an extreme example but again for myself it calls into question what makes someone be considered "helping" the enemy? Breeze is a noble. He is pure blood. He is Kelsier's friend, and trusted confidant, but deep down knows he has to hide that he is actually a noble, because he fears Kelsier would kill him for that knowledge alone. Kelsier's trusted and good friend. Knifed because of his blood. Kelsier has skaa blood in him to dilute the noble blood, so does that skaa blood mean he is not helping the enemy? But Vin says they aren't skaa. They are nobles. Kelsier was raised in a noble's manor, a noble's home. Shouldn't he die? He grew up in the system. The only difference is he was not legitimized, and him and Marsh fled before they were caught. But they never lived like skaa. Like Vin did. Kelsier benefited off the system. He stole from it and lived quite well. Is that not supporting the system? Should he not die?

 

edit: to clarify, I am not saying you yourself @Kingsdaughter613 are saying these people should die. Kelsier rationalized it that way. So if understanding Kelsier means that helping the war effort equates being the enemy, and being the enemy for Kelsier equates death, then I ask what equated helping the war effort enough to be equated an enemy, which by Kelsier would equate death

Edited January 10, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Tglassy]

I couldn't call him a monster.  I'd call him Human.  

 

He had a personal vendetta to the Nobility, but if it had just been that they killed his mom and his wife, he may have gone after the men who did it, but it would have ended there.  The problem was that he saw the injustice of the entire society, and realized that his mom and wife were only two victims out of millions.  He saw Evil.  True Evil.  And it permeated everything.  And he saw very, very little to convince him that the Nobility were anything other than Evil.  He decided that they were Evil and did not deserve to live.  They were all evil, but the guards were just doing their jobs.  So he rationalized.  They had sold out the other Skaa for comfort.  They had sided with the enemy.  They helped Evil keep reign.  So they were Evil, too.  

 

At the end of his natural life, he was beginning to understand that not ALL of the Nobility were actually evil.  No, he wasn't there quite yet, but he was getting there.  I think he would have liked Elend, eventually.  Oh, he'd have given him a hard time, and Noble Son Elend, or even King Elend, may have been too easily intimidated by Kelsior, but Emperor Elend would have been strong enough to stand beside him.  I can't remember how he thought of Elend once he became Emporer in Secret History, but I think he did grow to respect him.

 

I don't think he would have killed Breeze for being a pureblooded noble.  I think he would have been stunned to learn it, maybe rocked back a bit, but it might actually have been good for him to learn that not all Nobility were like that, and that they could, indeed, find allies in their ranks.  Hell, without knowing it, HE put a Nobleman in charge by selecting Breeze to be the Politician to take over.  I think it would have made him stop to reconsider the Schema's he had created in his mind regarding the Nobility.  

 

All of Kelsior's choices were consistent with a good person who is faced with a horrible evil, and doesn't know how to stop it without killing it.  They killed his mom.  They killed his wife.  Everything that followed was an understandable reaction to that.  I'd be hard pressed to not want to do the same thing, were I in his shoes.  

[Pathfinder]

Just two things if a may:

21 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

At the end of his natural life, he was beginning to understand that not ALL of the Nobility were actually evil.  No, he wasn't there quite yet, but he was getting there.  I think he would have liked Elend, eventually.  Oh, he'd have given him a hard time, and Noble Son Elend, or even King Elend, may have been too easily intimidated by Kelsior, but Emperor Elend would have been strong enough to stand beside him.  I can't remember how he thought of Elend once he became Emporer in Secret History, but I think he did grow to respect him.

Don't know if Secret History still requires spoilers:

Spoiler

 

Kelsier once he found out they put Elend in charge, regretted saving his life. That he did it for Vin because she was misguided. I quoted it below:

 

"And he hated to confront this one, it looked like the Venture boy was king. When Kelsier realized this, he was so angry he spent days away from the pulses. They'd gone and put a nobleman in charge. Yes, Kelsier had saved this man's life. Against his better judgement, he'd rescued the man that Vin loved. Out of love for her, perhaps a twisted paternal sense of duty. The Venture boy hadn't been too bad, compared to the rest of his kind. But to give him the throne? It seemed that even Dox was listening to Venture. kelsier would have expected Breeze to ride whatever wind came his way, but Dockson? Kelsier fumed, but he could not remain away for long"

 

 

 Could over time Kelsier grow to respect Elend? Maybe? But from that reaction, to me, had Kelsier been alive when they decided to pick Elend, I do not think Kelsier would have stood by and let it happen. I think, personally, he would have attacked Elend, and then Vin trying to protect Elend, would have resulted in a fight between them. 

 

21 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

I don't think he would have killed Breeze for being a pureblooded noble.  I think he would have been stunned to learn it, maybe rocked back a bit, but it might actually have been good for him to learn that not all Nobility were like that, and that they could, indeed, find allies in their ranks.  Hell, without knowing it, HE put a Nobleman in charge by selecting Breeze to be the Politician to take over.  I think it would have made him stop to reconsider the Schema's he had created in his mind regarding the Nobility.  

Going off the annotations, Breeze at least genuinely believes that his life would be in danger from Kelsier if Kelsier was informed that Breeze was a pure blood. 

 

to clarify, not saying you are wrong to believe as you do. Just bringing up references I saw that led me to believe as I do. Totally respect your thoughts and your right to have them. 

[Tglassy]

I don't think he would have attacked the boy.  I just don't think Elend would have been selected for the Throne if Kel was alive.  I think Kel would either have taken the Throne, or been the one to select who was on it.  No noblemen would have had any kind of political power.  The crew would have led, and at the very best, the Noblemen would have been told to leave the city or die.  This is why Kel would not have been good after his plan succeeded.  Elend was able to end the bloodshed.  Kel would have prolonged it.  

 

This probably would have led to confrontations between him and the crew, or at least Vin, but not deadly ones.  They would have been arguments.  Kel may have required that Elend leave with the rest of the Nobleman.  If that happened, Vin would have gone with him, and it would have caused a split.  Some of the crew may have had to realize, and help Kel realize, that without a beurocrocy and people who know how to lead, they would have no chance to keep their kingdom, and therefore they need the Nobility and the Obligators.  Kel isn't a stupid man.  He would have likely eventually realized this as well, but he would have put things in place so that the Nobility were now the serving class.  

Elend was just not the kind of person who A), Kel could respect, or B), that could compete with Kel's presence, before he became Emperor.  In fact, if Kel hadn't died and Elend been made king, he likely would not have grown in to that man.  All I'm saying is that Emperor Elend, the man he became by the third book, WAS someone Kel would have respected, and one that could compete with Kel for dominance in a conversation.  In fact, I would have loved to have seen that.  I just don't remember what Kel felt about him once he became Emperor.  

 

I don't think anything would have went as well if Kel was alive, for anyone involved.  And yeah, I remembered that scene when I wrote my post above.  He hated that they put him on the throne.  But that doesn't equate to "I really wish I'd murdered that boy".  That's more just feeling that his work was all for nothing if they were just going to give the throne to a Nobleman.  He didn't particularly care for Elend, but he did at least admit that Elend was "Not as bad as the rest".

[Pathfinder]

57 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

I don't think he would have attacked the boy.  I just don't think Elend would have been selected for the Throne if Kel was alive.  I think Kel would either have taken the Throne, or been the one to select who was on it.  No noblemen would have had any kind of political power.  The crew would have led, and at the very best, the Noblemen would have been told to leave the city or die.  This is why Kel would not have been good after his plan succeeded.  Elend was able to end the bloodshed.  Kel would have prolonged it.  

 

This probably would have led to confrontations between him and the crew, or at least Vin, but not deadly ones.  They would have been arguments.  Kel may have required that Elend leave with the rest of the Nobleman.  If that happened, Vin would have gone with him, and it would have caused a split.  Some of the crew may have had to realize, and help Kel realize, that without a beurocrocy and people who know how to lead, they would have no chance to keep their kingdom, and therefore they need the Nobility and the Obligators.  Kel isn't a stupid man.  He would have likely eventually realized this as well, but he would have put things in place so that the Nobility were now the serving class.  

Elend was just not the kind of person who A), Kel could respect, or B), that could compete with Kel's presence, before he became Emperor.  In fact, if Kel hadn't died and Elend been made king, he likely would not have grown in to that man.  All I'm saying is that Emperor Elend, the man he became by the third book, WAS someone Kel would have respected, and one that could compete with Kel for dominance in a conversation.  In fact, I would have loved to have seen that.  I just don't remember what Kel felt about him once he became Emperor.  

 

I don't think anything would have went as well if Kel was alive, for anyone involved.  And yeah, I remembered that scene when I wrote my post above.  He hated that they put him on the throne.  But that doesn't equate to "I really wish I'd murdered that boy".  That's more just feeling that his work was all for nothing if they were just going to give the throne to a Nobleman.  He didn't particularly care for Elend, but he did at least admit that Elend was "Not as bad as the rest".

For myself I think that is where the whole evil tendencies with Kelsier comes in. I personally do think he would have attacked. The quote shows (to me) him being so enraged he had to completely remove himself from it. That not killing Elend was against his better judgement. Which says to me normally his judgement would have said to kill Elend. That it was the love for Vin that caused him not to, not any feelings or emotions Elend elicited himself elicited. But that is just my own reading of it. Totally get and respect you think differently and I am in no way shape or form saying you have to see things my way. 

[garlick]

I want to say at his core hes good. His actions are not. Hes to "the end justifies the means". But we are still at the start of a long journey for our immortal friend. 

 I could see him popping up in the differnt eras because he's needed. At one point the 3rd era was going to be about a mistborn serial killer. I felt it would be kelsier doing his thing killing the enemy as a hidden assassin but doing it for a good cause. A way to show how he is perceived in different times.

Storm light spoilers

Spoiler

I think of the conversation when Dalinar asked wit if he thought Dalinar was a tyrant. Wit responded yes in another time I would curse your name, but today you are what's needed so I praise you for what you are...not a direct quote just something from memory to recap.

In the end I think he'll fight for freedom and life so to me that makes him a good guy. I don't agree with his methods but if Hitler was about to learn how to make more bands of mourning and kelseir has to intervene with his kill them all and let sazed sort them out mentally to stop a world war and death of billions who and I to complain about his brutal effectiveness. 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

Evil for sure. Hear me out.

The Cosmere has a confirmed afterlife. This means that the only reasonable thing to do is kill everyone so that they can stop suffering in the physical realm and find peace in the spiritual. This was Ruin’s plan. Kelsier spoiled this plan. Kelsier is evil.

[+Oltux72]

On 10/01/2020 at 4:23 PM, Pathfinder said:

But at that point in the story Vin was not a friend. She was a stranger. Kelsier had no attachment to her at that point. 

IIRC he had been training her for weeks when he offered an exit and the money.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

IIRC he had been training her for weeks when he offered an exit and the money.

Sorry that is not the scene i am talking about. I got a ebook edition that has the full trilogy in one so i cannot reference the page but it is the beginning of the first book. Vin is a stranger that kelsier found out can soothe. He gave her metals to find out she is a mistborn. He then gathers his entire crew, employer (yeden), and lays out everything they intend to do (rebellion). Clubs refuses, calls it stupid and storms out. Yeden states it is stupid of kelsier to do so because now clubs knows everything. Kelsier said he wouldnt have invited him if he didnt trust clubs. Then he asks breeze who says yes. Then asks vin who says yes. Again at that point in the story kelsier didnt know vin from a hole in the wall. She wasnt his friend and wasnt his student yet. If it was because she was a mistborn it would be doubly stupid because he now has a rival with his same powers with all the knowledge of his enterprise. So that is why i was wondering based on what you said, that kelsier killing nobility and civilians makes sense because he would look weak otherwise, but he doesnt kill his friends because he trusts them, should not include vin because he had literally just met her. The only info he had on her was that she worked for camon and that she uses brass to soothe. Her ignorance of being a mistborn and that her father was the head of the canton was heard from her lips, which could have been lies. So why was Vin allowed to live?

Edited January 14, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Weltall]

6 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

The Cosmere has a confirmed afterlife. This means that the only reasonable thing to do is kill everyone so that they can stop suffering in the physical realm and find peace in the spiritual. This was Ruin’s plan. Kelsier spoiled this plan. Kelsier is evil.

I know you're not really being serious with this but I just have to point out that, assuming you're talking about the Beyond and not just hanging out as a Cognitive Shadow post-death, the cosmere having an afterlife is not confirmed and in fact it's something that Brandon has explicitly stated will never be definitively answered.

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So why was Vin allowed to live?

• arrogance
• to whom exactly would she betray Kelsier? No Skaa allomancer can risk contact with the ministry
• she had an inquisitor chasing her. She needed protection and information.
• what would a rival group do with the information? If it were a heist, sure, but a revolution?
• If he is to fail, he'd rather fail early before much money is spent

[Tglassy]

57 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

• arrogance
• to whom exactly would she betray Kelsier? No Skaa allomancer can risk contact with the ministry
• she had an inquisitor chasing her. She needed protection and information.
• what would a rival group do with the information? If it were a heist, sure, but a revolution?
• If he is to fail, he'd rather fail early before much money is spent

This is not how Kel is depicted in the books.  He specifically talks about choosing to trust people, rather than choosing to believe that everyone will betray him.  This isn't an "Evil" person philosophy.  

 

I suppose you could go the "that's what he SAID, but he really believed different" path, but then I could do that for everyone.  Breeze SAID he wanted to help the Skaa, but he really just looked ahead and knew TLR was going to lose so he decided to join the winning side.  Clubs SAID he changed his mind and wanted to help, but really he was just a spy for TLR and was shocked when the actually won.  Vin SAID she loved Elend, but really she just wanted his crown.  

 

See?  It makes no sense.  Kel was a good man.  He had a lot to learn about people, specifically that not everyone of a certain class is evil just because they don't fight the system they're in, but he's a good man, as much as any man can be called 'good'.  He isn't fighting for his own riches.  Even becoming a religious figure wasn't about his ego.  it was about inspiring the Skaa to rise up against their oppressors.  Well...maybe his ego was a factor, but in the end, he would be dead, so what would he care?

[+Oltux72]

8 hours ago, Tglassy said:

This is not how Kel is depicted in the books.  He specifically talks about choosing to trust people, rather than choosing to believe that everyone will betray him.  This isn't an "Evil" person philosophy.

We still need to find out why he gets away with that and why he thinks that he can get away with it.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

16 hours ago, Weltall said:

I know you're not really being serious with this but I just have to point out that, assuming you're talking about the Beyond and not just hanging out as a Cognitive Shadow post-death, the cosmere having an afterlife is not confirmed and in fact it's something that Brandon has explicitly stated will never be definitively answered.

I always took that to mean that the nature of it would never be clarified. IMO, Saze outright says that there is an afterlife at the end of era one. He simply cannot see into it far enough to describe its nature.

[Pathfinder]

16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

• arrogance
• to whom exactly would she betray Kelsier? No Skaa allomancer can risk contact with the ministry
• she had an inquisitor chasing her. She needed protection and information.
• what would a rival group do with the information? If it were a heist, sure, but a revolution?
• If he is to fail, he'd rather fail early before much money is spent

Honestly he does not know any of that. All he knows about Vin is she seems to be a poor skaa girl getting kicked around, that turns out to be mistborn. She could have been a spy. She could have been a plant. Or, oooo just a thought I had, she could have been Paalm! lol. Also they confirm Yeden already paid them. So the money is already in hand. It was the promise of the Lord Ruler's treasury, the promise of future additional gains that convinced Breeze. But the current money was very much already there. 

15 hours ago, Tglassy said:

This is not how Kel is depicted in the books.  He specifically talks about choosing to trust people, rather than choosing to believe that everyone will betray him.  This isn't an "Evil" person philosophy.  

 

I suppose you could go the "that's what he SAID, but he really believed different" path, but then I could do that for everyone.  Breeze SAID he wanted to help the Skaa, but he really just looked ahead and knew TLR was going to lose so he decided to join the winning side.  Clubs SAID he changed his mind and wanted to help, but really he was just a spy for TLR and was shocked when the actually won.  Vin SAID she loved Elend, but really she just wanted his crown.  

 

See?  It makes no sense.  Kel was a good man.  He had a lot to learn about people, specifically that not everyone of a certain class is evil just because they don't fight the system they're in, but he's a good man, as much as any man can be called 'good'.  He isn't fighting for his own riches.  Even becoming a religious figure wasn't about his ego.  it was about inspiring the Skaa to rise up against their oppressors.  Well...maybe his ego was a factor, but in the end, he would be dead, so what would he care?

So totally respect your view of Kelsier, and totally respect your choice in feeling the way you do. I am only posting these WoB to show why I believe the way I do. Not intending to tell you you are wrong or right, or how to think. I am also only highlighting to point out the part/reason I am posting the WoB. 

 

Question

We've had great topics and discussions about this. If all of your characters were in a death match, who would win?

Brandon Sanderson

Honest truth is Kelsier. This is because of most of the characters, Kelsier is the one that is ruthless enough to get what he wants. Others would not be as ruthless. Kelsier as a character is very interesting to me. My kind of pitch on him to myself was he would be the villain in most stories. Kelsier in a lot of stories being told, in a lot of books that I would write, he's the villain but in this world, at this time, it is what the world needs and he is the hero. That's why I say Kelsier.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

 

 

ExaltedHamster

I feel like The Lord Ruler from Mistborn would be a pretty good example of black/white philosophy. ( [Brandon] feel free to chime in here if you want). Kelsier from the same book feels pretty red/white to me.

Brandon Sanderson

I always viewed Kelsier as red-black, personally. He loves his friends, and his team, but is counter-authority in a big way. He's extremely selfish and violent, but is bleeding toward believing in something more important as the books begin.

sirgog

This is interesting, I thought of Kelsier as about as mono red as you can get.

Freedom and emotions - rage and love at various times - drive him.

Never altruism, never malice. Just passionate rage.

Brandon Sanderson

I can completely see that argument. However, Kelsier has a strong megalomaniac streak. He set up a religion to worship him. He spent most of his life as a thief, seeking to get ahead--and enrich himself.

His arc is, to an extent, learning to allow the red side of him dominate the black side--but I still see him as a mixture of both. And you can see the malice on occasion (like when he dumps the body of the nobleman he's killed.)

General Reddit 2017 (June 6, 2017)

[Weltall]

5 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I always took that to mean that the nature of it would never be clarified. IMO, Saze outright says that there is an afterlife at the end of era one. He simply cannot see into it far enough to describe its nature.

No, Sazed says that he's spoken to Vin and Elend and they're happy where they are. That happened in the Cognitive Realm before they passed Beyond as seen in Secret History. Both Brandon in WoBs and Sazed in Bands of Mourning agree that Sazed does not and cannot know for certain what the Beyond is and his claims about it are simply what he believes.

Quote

“Now what?” Wax asked Harmony. “I fade off into nothing?”

“I don’t believe it’s nothing,” God said. “There is something beyond. Though perhaps my belief is merely my own desire wishing it to be so.”

Quote

Questioner

Will Kelsier reunite with the crew in the Beyond?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't talk about the Beyond. I would like to think that he would. But I don't talk about what happens there, even Sazed doesn't know what happens there. So, if you want to imagine it, then yes, but he would have to get there first.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

When Brandon says that he's never going to explain it, that means that he's never going to make clear whose interpretation (if any) is right and as such, the Beyond could represent an afterlife or it could be a cessation of existence and it's up to the characters in-universe and us readers to decide for ourselves.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Weltall

[SwordNimiForPresident]

@Weltall All of that confirms that there is in fact an afterlife. Whether it is some kind of eternal existence, or the cessation of existence, it’s is still something that happens after you die, in a place that isn’t here.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

@Weltall All of that confirms that there is in fact an afterlife. Whether it is some kind of eternal existence, or the cessation of existence, it’s is still something that happens after you die, in a place that isn’t here.

This WoB is more detailed, with Brandon explaining how he does not want a definitive answer whether there is even a place after at all. That it could just as easily be investiture being reclaimed. Or Buddhist where it is being recycled. All occuring "here". Without an actual afterlife or other "place". Full WoB below

 

Questioner

After people die, in this universe, where exactly do they go? Because, at first they appear in this one world, and then they go somewhere else.

Brandon Sanderson

So where do people go when they die. *laughter* In the cosmere. One of the things that's very important to me as a writer, when I am writing stories, is when we get to these kind of fundamental questions about faith and religion and things like this, that the narrative is allowing multiple characters' viewpoints to be plausibly true, if this makes sense. For instance, I am not gonna come out and say, "Is there a capital-G God of the cosmere, is there an afterlife?" These are not questions I'm gonna answer, because in-world, they can't answer them. What they can say is, your Investiture will leave what we call a Cognitive Shadow, which is an imprint of your personality that can do certain things. And that most of those fade away, and you can see them, glimpse them, and then watch them go. But, are they going somewhere? Or are they not? Is that simply the Investiture being reclaimed, Is it more of a Buddhist thought, where your soul is getting recycled and used again? Is it nothing, you return to, you know, being-- yeah, is it a different type of matter? Or is there a Beyond, is there a capital-G God? Things like this. These questions are not answered. I'm never gonna answer those.

Now, the characters will try to answer them. But it's important to me that both Dalinar and Jasnah can exist in the same universe, and that the story is not saying "This one is right, and this one is wrong." The story is saying "This is how this one sees the world; this is how this one sees the world." It's very important to me from the beginning to do that, just because-- Like, I hate reading a book where someone espouses my viewpoint only to get proven wrong by the entire structure of the narrative, and in that universe, that person is wrong. But I'm like, "In our universe, I don't think that I am. Just the way you constructed everything makes it so that I have to be wrong, if I were living in your universe, even if it's a universe that's not a sci-fi/fantasy one." If that makes sense.

This is just kind of for respecting my characters and for the people who hold the viewpoints of my characters, in particular if they happen to be different from my own viewpoints. I feel there are certain lines I'm not gonna cross.

So, the answer is: who do you believe? Which of the philosophies in the books do you look at and say "Yeah!" Or, even better: listen to lots of different ones, and maybe these different viewpoints are all gonna have interesting points that'll give you things to think upon.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+Oltux72]

15 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Honestly he does not know any of that. All he knows about Vin is she seems to be a poor skaa girl getting kicked around, that turns out to be mistborn. She could have been a spy. She could have been a plant.

You cannot pretend to be a Mistborn.
The only thing Vin was not, was from the ministry. Why would they use a precious and rare Mistborn, if they could just strike and torture information out of people?

 

[Pathfinder]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

You cannot pretend to be a Mistborn.
The only thing Vin was not, was from the ministry. Why would they use a precious and rare Mistborn, if they could just strike and torture information out of people?

 

Paalm with the right spikes could. Kelsier only tested Vin for soothing and rioting. That could be easily accomplished by her. 

Vin could have been a plant by the Inquisition. She could either have been a full mistborn, pretending to be a half breed, or she could have been spiked with a blessing to give her two powers so she would register to him as a mistborn. It was confirmed via WoB that there were female steel inquisitors. She could have been in the early induction and used as a spy. It was said in the book that they fast tracked Marsh. So she could have been early in the process. 

My point is, Kelsier didn't know. She could have been anything. 

[NameIess]

On 1/16/2020 at 11:07 AM, Pathfinder said:

Paalm with the right spikes could. Kelsier only tested Vin for soothing and rioting. That could be easily accomplished by her. 

Vin could have been a plant by the Inquisition. She could either have been a full mistborn, pretending to be a half breed, or she could have been spiked with a blessing to give her two powers so she would register to him as a mistborn. It was confirmed via WoB that there were female steel inquisitors. She could have been in the early induction and used as a spy. It was said in the book that they fast tracked Marsh. So she could have been early in the process. 

My point is, Kelsier didn't know. She could have been anything. 

Kelsier didn't know about spikes. All he knew was that Vin was a Mistborn.

[+Oltux72]

On 16/01/2020 at 5:07 PM, Pathfinder said:

Paalm with the right spikes could. Kelsier only tested Vin for soothing and rioting. That could be easily accomplished by her.

No, as it was impossible to predict which or how many metals Kelsier would test. She would have to be a Mistborn.

On 16/01/2020 at 5:07 PM, Pathfinder said:

Vin could have been a plant by the Inquisition.

How? If the Inquisition knew where to put such aplant, why not just arrest?

On 16/01/2020 at 5:07 PM, Pathfinder said:

She could either have been a full mistborn, pretending to be a half breed, or she could have been spiked with a blessing to give her two powers so she would register to him as a mistborn.

Again, no way to predict which metals Kelsier would use.

 

[Pathfinder]

39 minutes ago, Llstml said:

Kelsier didn't know about spikes. All he knew was that Vin was a Mistborn.

Exactly. Which means there is a whole bunch of other ways he could have been fooled. Remember the Lord Ruler had Kelsier thinking his wife Mare betrayed him from one sentence. Straff had a hidden mistborn. Elend's potential wife to be was a hidden mistborn. Why couldn't the inquisitors have hidden mistborn for missions?

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No, as it was impossible to predict which or how many metals Kelsier would test. She would have to be a Mistborn.

Actually very easy. She just has to demonstrate a second one. Kelsier says it himself, you either get one, or all of them. So just showing one more is enough proof to show you are mistborn. Kelsier doesn't know you can be gifted any combination of powers via spikes. Or Vin could have been a mistborn, and still a steel inquisition plant. Kelsier has no way to know anything from Vin's lips is the truth. 

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How? If the Inquisition knew where to put such aplant, why not just arrest?

Because they want to stop the rebellion for good. Its been hiding out in caves. In the past they would just stop because it was too much resources and effort to hunt through all those caved. But if they had a plant, they could hit them quick, and coordinated. Destroying the rebellion utterly and completely for ages to come. 

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Again, no way to predict which metals Kelsier would use.

Kelsier gave her a general vial of all the metals. She demonstrated Soothing with the obligator already. He reasoned it would be best when speaking to someone with (seemingly) no experience to have them use a metal analogous to the metal she already knew how to use which would require the minimal amount of teaching and explanation. One that he could also feel the effect of to determine its use. Sounds all reasoned to me. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Tglassy]

1.  Kel did NOT give her a general vial, he gave her one with only two metals, Brass and Zinc.  

 

2.  Inquisitors didn't make Inquisitors slowly.  They did it all at once, reveling in the death and destruction it would take.  They don't use plants because they believe themselves to be too powerful to do so.  They are the definition of arrogant.  

 

3.  Paalm couldn't use Allomantic Powers until Era 2, after she died as Lessie, and when she got Trellium.  

 

Why don't we just take Kel at his word when he says he didn't kill Vin because he chose to trust rather than not trust?  When he gave her the 3,000 Boxings and said she could leave, there is literally nothing in book that said "And secretly in the back of his mind, he thought "I'm going to have to follow this girl and kill her if she moves for the Ministry.""  No, he just offered her a way out, no questions asked.  She could have sold them all out.  

 

Kel's not evil.  Yeah, he COULD have been a bad guy, had the situation been different.  Even Ham says as much when he asks if they are all actually evil, if the Lord Ruler is really divine and therefore he is Good.  Which, in the end, Rashek WAS a good man, from a certain point of view, because he was protecting the world from Ruin.  He just became heartless and cold.  Kind of...like...Kel.  And Elend, for that matter.  

 

But that's everyone.  One nation's Pirate is another's Hero.  Which is correct?  Is the Pirate, then, evil?  Or is he good?  Or is that dependent on who you're talking to?  Were the Founding Fathers heroes of a new world or traitors to the old?  Or both?  Or maybe, people are just more complicated than that.  

 

If they killed my mom and beat my wife to death in front of me, their entire world would burn to the ground were it in my power to make it happen.  

[Pathfinder]

On 1/17/2020 at 6:40 PM, Tglassy said:

1.  Kel did NOT give her a general vial, he gave her one with only two metals, Brass and Zinc.  

Still could be reasoned to me. 

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2.  Inquisitors didn't make Inquisitors slowly.  They did it all at once, reveling in the death and destruction it would take.  They don't use plants because they believe themselves to be too powerful to do so.  They are the definition of arrogant.  

Totally respect your opinion. In the books it is mentioned they fast tracked Marsh because he was doing so well. Normally there is a long induction where they look into you, train you, etc. So that reads to me as slowly. The steel inquisition uses soothing stations as both means to placate the masses as well as keep an eye out for skaa mistings. Personalyl I do not see why they wouldn't use spies and plants. The nobility certainly uses them, as evidenced by Kelsier using disguises to pretend to be a street informant to seed false information. The nobility were also concerned because obligators frequently came from their own families who could potentially sell out all their secrets. Kandra were also used. So for myself, I think it would be plausible for the steel inquisition to use spies and plants. 

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3.  Paalm couldn't use Allomantic Powers until Era 2, after she died as Lessie, and when she got Trellium.  

From what I recall she could. That the Lord Ruler taught her further secrets of hemalurgy so she could do jobs no other kandra could do. The reason for the trellium was so she couldn't be controlled by harmony while doing it. But prior to that she was completely fine with the number of spikes she had, and it is mentioned she knows how to use hemalurgy in ways no one else did. I also could have sworn it was explicitly mentioned she was used for that reason. But I will check later when I have a chance and pull up the quote. 

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Why don't we just take Kel at his word when he says he didn't kill Vin because he chose to trust rather than not trust?  When he gave her the 3,000 Boxings and said she could leave, there is literally nothing in book that said "And secretly in the back of his mind, he thought "I'm going to have to follow this girl and kill her if she moves for the Ministry.""  No, he just offered her a way out, no questions asked.  She could have sold them all out.  

My intention was to respond to Oltux's assertion that it made sense for Kelsier to kill the civilians under the nobility because he is a crime lord, and would not want to feel weak. So I was going on that premise to ask then why wouldn't such an individual kill Vin when she was a stranger that he had no clue who or what she was. Also to clarify the scene I am referring to is not the one where they are offered money and can leave. I am referring to the first meeting where Kelsier lays out they will be doing a rebellion, shows who is his employer, shows the other individuals in the crew, and who he is. This being plenty of information for Yeden to freak out about letting Clubs leave. Otherwise Kelsier knows nothing about Vin, and has not had anytime to build any attachments to the girl. 

Now personally I think the reason Kelsier didn't kill Vin was because she was a skaa, and he needed her. So he let his natural charisma do the leg work. Over time he came to love her like a sudo daughter. That does not change my thoughts on Kelsier having evil within him, and the situation commonly dictating when that evil comes out. But that is my personal reading of the character. 

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Kel's not evil.  Yeah, he COULD have been a bad guy, had the situation been different.  Even Ham says as much when he asks if they are all actually evil, if the Lord Ruler is really divine and therefore he is Good.  Which, in the end, Rashek WAS a good man, from a certain point of view, because he was protecting the world from Ruin.  He just became heartless and cold.  Kind of...like...Kel.  And Elend, for that matter.  

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. I personally think that, in my opinion, if circumstances is the only thing preventing a person from doing evil or not (not saying you are saying that, I am saying that. To me Kelsier's actions is very determinate on the situation), then I think that person has evil within them. For myself Kelsier is a flip of the coin. I would not want to trust or follow such an individual, because for myself I would not know whether I was considered either:

 

-The malcontent Kelsier set up to get killed by Demoux, which was only stopped because Demoux resisted

-Ham, a good friend, that Kelsier manipulates into a position of power against Ham's will

-The group of villagers Kelsier set up, then abandoned, and was surprised they survived

-Breeze, a good friend, that is worried Kelsier will kill him if Kelsier finds out the truth about his origins

-Elend, a good man who is only alive in regards to Kelsier (to me) because Vin happened to have strong feelings for him

-Spook, Kelsier manipulated into idolization, and used that worship to further Kelsier's own goals after death

 

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But that's everyone.  One nation's Pirate is another's Hero.  Which is correct?  Is the Pirate, then, evil?  Or is he good?  Or is that dependent on who you're talking to?  Were the Founding Fathers heroes of a new world or traitors to the old?  Or both?  Or maybe, people are just more complicated than that.  

Sir Francis Drake did not seek to exterminate every single Spanish person simply because they were spanish. The Founding Fathers did not seek to exterminate every single British soldier simply because they were British. 

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If they killed my mom and beat my wife to death in front of me, their entire world would burn to the ground were it in my power to make it happen.  

The question (I thought at least) that was brought up, is what do you quantify as "they"? The individuals that did the beating and killing themselves? The guards that protect those individuals? The servants that cook the food, and clean the place that those individuals live in? Kelsier stated all should die because they support the system. Personally I think that is problematic and hypocritical especially as Vin pointed out Kelsier benefited from that system. Kelsier never actually lived as a skaa. Kelsier would have been nobility himself had his father claimed him and Marsh. Kelsier would have been that which he so reviles. 

For myself (I know Kingsdaughter disagrees, and I respect her thoughts on this matter that we have discussed at length before), but considering how the Southern Society functions also speaks to me of a Kelsier that has learned nothing, continues to inflate his own ego, and became the very thing he abhorred most. A dictator. 

Which is why for myself Brandon's quote resonates deeply. Kelsier in any other story would be the villain. To me had Kelsier and Wax ran into each other, they would have fought, and Kelsier would have tried to kill Wax. That Miles and Suit are right when they say there isn't much separating them from Kelsier. I feel the Wax and Wayne series is meant to highlight this. 

To be clear I am not trying to tell you how to feel about Kelsier. Feel free to like the character, think he is a good man, be inspired by him. Just personally for myself, I would not feel comfortable nor safe around such an individual. For myself, I would never know where I truly stand in his esteem. Am I truly his friend that he trusts? Am I just a useful tool? Or am I bait/something worthy of being used and thrown away? 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Pathfinder