Oltux72

Why doesn't Kelsier need Investiture to manifest stuff?

22 posts in this topic

We have seen manifestations in the the Cognitive Realm in seven scenarios.

  1. Shallan manifested a lot. She uses Stormlight.
  2. Ico manifested ice. He used Stormlight.
  3. Manifested stuff is sold on a market. Strictly speaking we have no clue how they made it.
  4. Riino used a manifested signal fire. Method unknown.
  5. Nazh and Khriss were using a manifested camp fire. Unknown how they made it.
  6. The Ire had manifested a whole fortress. The were feeding it Investiture, presumably piped in from the Dor.
  7. Kelsier manifested stuff. He apparently did not use Investiture.

How was that possible? Was that because it was inside Scadrial's CR? Because Kelsier is a Shadow? Because Kelsier had taken a bath in a shard pool?

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Because the plot required it?

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Manifested stuff is sold on a market. Strictly speaking we have no clue how they made it.

It is manifested or brought through the perpendicularity before it is put in the market. 

16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Nazh and Khriss were using a manifested camp fire. Unknown how they made it.

I am pretty sure that is not fire.  It does not seem to require any kind of fuel for example.  I believe there is a WoB on it.

16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Kelsier manifested stuff. He apparently did not use Investiture.

When?  Sure he had stuff while in the CR but that was all manifested by other people.

Edited by Ookla the Prolific
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4 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

When?  Sure he had stuff while in the CR but that was all manifested by other people.

The fire. He was popping it in and out of manifestation.

I think the reason for this is probably the difference between Scadrial's Cognitive and Roshar's Cognitive, honestly. That, or it was a matter of him already being a Cognitive Shadow quantifying him differently than a spren. Or maybe it did require Investiture and it was just pulling off the Preservation Investiture that was anchoring him from the Beyond.

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Just now, Ookla the Prolific said:

When?  Sure he had stuff while in the CR but that was all manifested by other people.

Quote

He could give this fire something. Burn again, he told it. Be warm again.

It couldn't happen in the Physical Realm, but all things there could manifest here. The fire wasn't actually alive, but to the people who had once lived there, it had almost been so. A familiar, warm friend.

Burn ...

Light burst from his fingers, ...

 

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He did just come out from an extended bath in the WoA. Having absorbed enough of that to persist as a CS, he could simply be using a tiny bit of his own investiture to do it. Small enough that he didn't even notice it. CS are weird.

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2 hours ago, RShara said:

He did just come out from an extended bath in the WoA. Having absorbed enough of that to persist as a CS, he could simply be using a tiny bit of his own investiture to do it. Small enough that he didn't even notice it. CS are weird.

That does lead into an interesting question if true. Could a Cognitive Shadow manifest enough material so that they disappear? Could they use up all the investure that makes them up?

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I dont think they'd disappear, they'd get pulled into the Beyond.

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At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot what exactly is manifestation . Are we speaking about how shallan brought a wall over from the physical realm using a surge ? Is that manifestation ? 

       If so , Shallan has a surge that allowed that . So the basis of this question of the OP . Is he asking that anyone can manifest a object from the Physical Realm into the Cognitive Realm ?  Or is manifestation simply Creating an Object in the Cognitive Realm that wasn’t there before ? And lastly do these rules change depending on what planet CR you are on ? Ie if your on Roshar you need to use a glass bead , if your on Nalthis CR you need to use breath , and if your on Scadrial you could use some other form of investiture ?

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13 hours ago, Debarra said:

That does lead into an interesting question if true. Could a Cognitive Shadow manifest enough material so that they disappear? Could they use up all the investure that makes them up?

I think so, absolutely.  WOB says Cognitive Shadows happen when the "ghost" has some amount of investiture that lets them linger longer than they'd normally be able to stick around, and that this is a typical function of the Cosmere, where more sapient creatures innately have more investiture and thus have more of a window before they are forced Beyond.  Kelsier himself was already more Invested than most being a Mistborn but was still about to get swept Beyond before Leras Invested in him enough to let him stay. But my understanding is that the same granted Investiture is what was sustaining him, much like how Returned need to burn Investiture Fuel to maintain their cognitive shadow states.  If he used it up before he found any more, the effect would end and he'd be forced back into his original death process.  

 

12 hours ago, Thanatos said:

I dont think they'd disappear, they'd get pulled into the Beyond.

That difference would be entirely philosophic and unable to be tested even by the shards, so Im not sure it makes any difference; it's literally the same as our world debating whether we "disappear" or have an afterlife.  Though I do agree it would be the same thing, they wouldnt be denied the Beyond when they'd otherwise get there, or anything like that.  

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I feel like Investiture is basically used to convince the objects soul to do stuff ("Hey, you know that thing that you do in the Physical realm? Would you mind doing that here as well? I'll give you some nice magic-juice if you do"), but what if the soul didn't need any convincing? Then it would probably just need a tiny bit of Investiture, bordering on nothing.

All the things Kelsier manifested were the souls of abandoned objects that wanted to be used again, but couldn't anymore in the Physical. An extinguished flame that still had memories of providing warmth, a backpack that still believed that it was supposed to sit in a store, even after that store was buried in ash. These are souls that know what they want to do, that desperately want to fulfill their purpose. 

Kelsier's probably giving a tiny amount of his own Investiture to fuel the change. 

In regards to the question of whether or not Kelsier could run out of Investiture, I don't think so. I think that Kelsier literally became part of Preservation's power, which would explain why he couldn't leave the Well until Ruin escaped, and Preservation's power no longer needed to remain in the Well. As such, he's basically getting an Investiture pension from Preservation, so no matter how much he uses, it will get refilled. 

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Posted (edited)

The process might also be simpler/less Investiture intensive for Cognitive entities. Cultivationspren apparently manifest a lot of souls of inanimate objects as their version of 'gardening', as we are told by both Wyndle and the Honorspren abroad the Honor's Path.

It might also simply be due to different Shardworlds, different Shards who've Invested in that Shardworld, different forms of Investiture on the Shardworld or even how Investiture saturated they are, or distance between the manifestation & the original object, or all of the above.

Besides, have we actually seen humans manifest a soul in the Cognitive in the same manner? Shallan created replicas of objects in the Physical made of the beads of the Rosharan subastral's (in)version of land, which judging by the fact that Jasnah also used the same method, is probably something granted by the Surge of Transformation.

Edited by Honorless
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Likely it is because investiture on Scadrial takes a different form than on Roshar.  Namely, everything is made from investiture.  Yes, all matter is investiture, but on Scadrial, it was made from Ruin and Preservation.  Investiture shows up as Stormlight on Roshar.  You can literally hold it and give it to things.  On Scadrial, it is only manifested when a Mistborn burns metals (the metals themselves are not Investiture, but a catalyst to access it), when a Feruchemist stores an attribute (again, the metal merely determines the attribute), and when a Hemalurgic Spike rips off a piece of someone's spirit web.  You can't "Give" investiture to an object, like on Scadrial. 

 

I'd say that on Scadrial, everything already has whatever Investiture they need.  Manifesting it is simply a matter of knowing how.  It's possible that in order to manifest, the object in question needs Investiture from its home world.  Scadrial would already have all it needs, but things from Sel, like the fortress in Secret History, need a constant pipeline from Sel, and things from Roshar would need Stormlight.  

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1 hour ago, Honorless said:

The process might also be simpler/less Investiture intensive for Cognitive entities. Cultivationspren apparently manifest a lot of souls of inanimate objects as their version of 'gardening', as we are told by both Wyndle and the Honorspren abroad the Honor's Path.

Related detail that I recently discovered and am really intrigued by:  Wyndle didnt say literally he gardened inanimate objects, he said "Cryptics and Honorspren alike came to see the crystals I grew from the minds of your world".  Now, that could easily be him just describing all cognitive aspects (beads, flames, etc) as "minds" of the mortal world. But given how abstract and conceptual most of the spren-related things are, I think he might instead be saying that the crystals are them Cultivating Ideas from mortal minds; that they are essentially acting as muses that cultivate Dreams and Concepts and whatnot from and/or within living minds.  It would go some way to explaining the odd detail where some crystals where monochrome while others where colored, and we know from WOBs that there is some unrevealed cosmere significance to Color.  

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5 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Related detail that I recently discovered and am really intrigued by:  Wyndle didnt say literally he gardened inanimate objects, he said "Cryptics and Honorspren alike came to see the crystals I grew from the minds of your world".  Now, that could easily be him just describing all cognitive aspects (beads, flames, etc) as "minds" of the mortal world. But given how abstract and conceptual most of the spren-related things are, I think he might instead be saying that the crystals are them Cultivating Ideas from mortal minds; that they are essentially acting as muses that cultivate Dreams and Concepts and whatnot from and/or within living minds.  It would go some way to explaining the odd detail where some crystals where monochrome while others where colored, and we know from WOBs that there is some unrevealed cosmere significance to Color.  

I don't think so. He did mention his splendid collection of chairs afterwards.

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16 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I don't think so. He did mention his splendid collection of chairs afterwards.

Where is it that Wyndle mentions a collection of Chairs?

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8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Where is it that Wyndle mentions a collection of Chairs?

It's in the novella Edgedancer, it should also be mentioned on Coppermind. I recall him even giving the names of a few types of chairs.

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1 minute ago, Honorless said:

It's in the novella Edgedancer, it should also be mentioned on Coppermind. I recall him even giving the names of a few types of chairs.

Ah, so it is.  Sad, I was hoping to find real evidence of abstract concepts or ideas manifesting as 'physical' objects in Shadesmar, so far spren are the main example, but I dont still dont fully understand what materials the Spren built things from.  

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It is also possible that Cognitive entities, like Cognitive Shadows and Spren, engage the Cognitive realm differently. It is their natural place, after all.

Physical beings need to do other things to interact with the Cognitive. Similarly, Cognitive beings need to work to interact with the Physical. And Spiritual beings likely need to do something to interact with the other two realms, just as Physical and Cognitive beings don’t naturally interact with the Spiritual.

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1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It is also possible that Cognitive entities, like Cognitive Shadows and Spren, engage the Cognitive realm differently. It is their natural place, after all.

Physical beings need to do other things to interact with the Cognitive. Similarly, Cognitive beings need to work to interact with the Physical. And Spiritual beings likely need to do something to interact with the other two realms, just as Physical and Cognitive beings don’t naturally interact with the Spiritual.

Unfortunately Captain Ico needed Stormlight. And he is a spren.

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However, he needed the Stormlight to manifest water for humans. 

Edited by 18th Shard
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I think Kelsir uses investiture but doesn’t notice it. Because the story is told from his point of view it is not mentioned. 

I agree that he probably got the investiture from the well of ascension and from fuzz. 

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