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Willshaper Oaths based on what I have (which is far to close to nothing)


Karger

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A while back I told @Honorless that I was going to make another of my trademark Radiant Oath Theories about Willshaper Oaths.  Additionally the next SA book is going to be about Willshapers so I think doing this is a good idea.

For those of you who don't know I believe that Radiant Oaths (with the exception of Lightweavers) follow a pattern.  The first ideal is constant, the second is about service, the third is about fairness, the fourth is about trust and the fifth is about the ultimate goal.  This belief fuels all of my oath theories. 

Keep in mind that Willshapers are the order we know least about.  We have never even seen an active Willshaper in action unless you count Venli and to this day there remains some confusion about what surges they have so this is probably going to have much more speculation then any other similar theory. 

The first ideal for Willshapers is of course the same "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."  This is always the first ideal.  After this however we have to speculate. 

The second ideal for Willshapers will almost certainly involve what the Willshaper order is supposed to do for others.  Thanks to the as yet unknown author of Words of Radiance we know that Willshapers varied greatly in terms of personality but they were know for a "love of adventure, novelty, or oddity."  This reminds me of the tinker that our hero meets on the road, a wacky old man who loves the strangest things but at the same time(key point) always has exactly what our adventurer needs to succeed on there quest.  As such I think that the second ideal of the Willshapers is "I will bring newness to those who need it."

EDIT AS OF BRANDON QUIZ AND RADIANT INFO DUMP.  I think I want to revise this one and make it "I will help people find what they need."  This is both more general and incorporates @Schadnathan's theory and work.   To take things one step further in our old crazy tinker metaphor the items that the adventurer is given inform "his" approach.  A weapon might give added courage, invisibility might make our overconfident friend more sneaky.  A pretty gift might encourage the adventurer to try a social solution first.  A willshaper's job is to inform and aid the decision making of the people around them.  They are not known as odd just because they are carried away, like to travel, and know really obscure bits of trivia.  They also are constantly trying new things and getting others to do the same.

I think this covers service fairly well.  When a you need a new way of doing things or a device that can help you reach your goal you call your Willshaper.  This is great but it may lead to a problem. What happens if your Willshaper gets carried away?  What happens when they invent the atomic bomb or biological warfare?  The history of science is rife with humans using new technologies to hurt kill or torture each other.  Venli herself ended her people because she did not care about the actual results of her new form of power.  As such I think that the third ideal of Willshapers is "I will think of the results of my creations before creating them."

Once we have finished the third ideal the Willshaper can aid their community and we can all sleep a little easier knowing that they are not working on a way to devolve humans back into chimpanzees.  However genius does not happen in a vacuum.  To be truly effective an inventor has to rely on their fellows work.  This is something Brandon clearly knows(imagine if he tried to check continuity and do research on all topics himself).  A Willshaper has to be able to work with others.  They have to rely on ideas that they don't fully understand and except it when someone points out a potential flaw in their new theory.  As such I think that the fourth ideal for a Willshaper is "I will trust the work and concerns of others."

This gives us four nice ideals to play with.  Our Willshaper makes good stuff that won't kill us or turn our food into weird tasteless pastes.  They can cooperate and think and work in teams.  However they don't yet grasp the point of invention.  More or newer is not the same as better.  Invention should fix problems and make life easier.  As such I think the final ideal of a Willshaper is a simple "I will work for them not for me."

PS I have a bonus in the works where I point out where in SA 4 I think Venli will swear each oath.  I will post it below latter.  Also my pattern of radiant oaths theory can be found below.

Spoiler

 

Edited by Karger
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The second ideal you mention: "I will bring new ideas and innovations to those who need them" fits well with what we see Venli doing last in OB:

Quote

She had driven them toward new information, new powers. She’d always hungered for it. Something new. Timbre pulsed to Consolation, but then it blended, changing once again to Resolve. Venli hummed the same transformation. Something new. But also something old. She walked to the two sailors. They immediately stood at attention, saluting her as the only Regal on the ship, holding a form of power. “I know who you were,” she said to the two of them. “You … you do?” the femalen asked. “Yes.” Venli pointed. “Keep working, and let me tell you of the listeners.”

Her tendency pre-Radiancy? Novelty. Discovery.

Her tendency post-Radiancy? Sharing new information to the lost.

Bravo. I like it.

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7 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Keep in mind that Willshapers are the order we know least about.  We have never even seen an active Willshaper in action unless you count Venli and to this day there remains some confusion about what surges they have so this is probably going to have much more speculation then any other similar theory.

Because of Stormfather's comment to Dalinar regarding Cohesion in one of his visions? That got cleared up by Peter actually. Cohesion is not a Surge that Bondsmiths can use, the Radiant was a Stoneward which wasn't retconned, which clears that up. So Willshapers have: Transportation and Cohesion

3 hours ago, Bliev said:

The second ideal you mention: "I will bring new ideas and innovations to those who need them" fits well with what we see Venli doing last in OB:

Her tendency pre-Radiancy? Novelty. Discovery.

Her tendency post-Radiancy? Sharing new information to the lost.

Bravo. I like it.

Hmm... well technically she was doing Odium's bidding there

 

I like the foundation that you've built their Ideals on. Their Divine Attributes are supposed to be Resolute & Builder. They are discoverers, adventurers and explorers, researchers, resource providers. So seeking new, considering the results beforehand and trusting other sources is quite fitting, but I feel like flipping the latter two. I like that Fifth Ideal.

Edited by Honorless
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21 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

This is freaking amazing given you have absolutely nothing to build off of!

Thank you.  That actually means a lot.

20 hours ago, Bliev said:

The second ideal you mention: "I will bring new ideas and innovations to those who need them" fits well with what we see Venli doing last in OB:

Yes!  That is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about.  It reminded me of Kaladin's early atempts to help people under Syl's guidance.

17 hours ago, Honorless said:

Because of Stormfather's comment to Dalinar regarding Cohesion in one of his visions? That got cleared up by Peter actually. Cohesion is not a Surge that Bondsmiths can use, the Radiant was a Stoneward which wasn't retconned, which clears that up. So Willshapers have: Transportation and Cohesion

I am aware but some confusion remains.  Regardless thank you for posting the WoB.

17 hours ago, Honorless said:

Hmm... well technically she was doing Odium's bidding there

Odium corrupting reasonable or good intentions is kind of his MO.

17 hours ago, Honorless said:

So seeking new, considering the results beforehand and trusting other sources is quite fitting, but I feel like flipping the latter two. I like that Fifth Ideal.

Care to explain why?

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21 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Just a feeling. They still fit with the structure you've based them on

I could see that.  My reasoning was that I wanted our crazy tinkerers to think of consequences before joining large groups of their fellows and becoming even more effective as apposed to after.  Around the third oath is where I see the greatest number of mistakes being made as well.

Also could those of you who have followed all four of my radiant oath theories give me some feedback?  I want to know what is working and what is not.  Also which order should I cover next?

Edited by Ookla the Prolific
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Elsecallers and Truthwatchers, I like the latter more but we know less of them, so let's put them on the backburner. I'll go over what we know of the Elsecallers. A scholarly Order, prime liaisons with the spren though Willshapers and Lightweaver also had the ability to visit the realm, one of the Orders who helped map Shadesmar, the Order which was appointed for safekeeping of the perfect gems, Surges: Elsecalling and Soulcasting; the Inkspren are attracted to people who think through decisions rather than acting on instinct, a quality usually associated with scholars, but can also apply to a soldier who thinks things through instead of rushing into battle; Divine Attributes: wise, careful

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On 1/4/2020 at 9:35 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

Also could those of you who have followed all four of my radiant oath theories give me some feedback?  I want to know what is working and what is not.  Also which order should I cover next?

Over all I really enjoy it. The biggest point of criticism is that I don't understand where you got "trust" as the 4th ideal. The only 4th ideal we've seen is skybreaker's crusade. To me it's the 4th ones that tend to feel off. But again we've only seen one 4th ideal so its expected for this to be the point where opinions diverge most.

And as even a airsick lowlander could tell I'd love Truthwatchers (and elsecallers)

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2 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

Over all I really enjoy it. The biggest point of criticism is that I don't understand where you got "trust" as the 4th ideal. The only 4th ideal we've seen is skybreaker's crusade

A Skybreaker embarking on a crusade is taking a leap of faith.  They must trust that the law and their own judgement is sound regardless of what they encounter or how bad it seems.  The only other ideal I see as possible in this situation that could hold true across all orders is mercy.  However mercy has its own problems, not all orders need it explicitly and is broadly covered under the third ideal, fairness, that I think is pretty well established.

2 hours ago, asmodeus said:

I'm not too keen on the structure you've built into the ideals, I'd need a little more convincing to get there.

This is the earliest iteration I could find of my reasoning for both of you.

On 4/14/2019 at 4:03 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

The ideal of being responsible for the safety of others especially those who depend on you.  The second unique ideal is similar.  Neither a soldier nor a leader can let their personal feelings get in the way of doing what is right.  Teft had to protect himself because others depend on him (and he depended on himself) and Kaladin could not let his personal animosity get in the way of his sworn duty.  Going along this line of reasoning the next lesson a leader will learn is delegation.  A leader cannot just take responsibility he must be willing to give responsibility to others and expect them to live up to it.  Kaladin has learned to take responsibility but we have yet to see him surrender any.  He keeps trying to do everything himself and he does not allow anyone else responsibility for what happens.  He blames himself for Kolinar despite their being nothing he personally could have done to stop the situation from going as it did and he could not swear the 4th ideal because he could not trust Dalinar to handle himself without being present to defend him.

 

Edited by Ookla the Prolific
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1 minute ago, Impact said:

I feel like this ignores the attribute of "Resolute".  I know that the divine attributes are not always perfect and don't always line up, but I feel like that should be more in there somewhere

It is likely tied up somewhere in the 2nd ideal.  Actually inventing something useful requires a great deal of persistence.

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9 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

It is likely tied up somewhere in the 2nd ideal.  Actually inventing something useful requires a great deal of persistence.

Much like the old (possibly mis-attributed or made up, i dunno) Thomas Edison quote of "I have not failed. I have just found ten thousand ways that do not work."

Edited by Halyo_Alex
autocorrect messed up mis-attributed :/
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I find this theory very interesting because your and my expectations of what Willshapers will do are quite different. As we know nothing about Willshapers at all, I think it's quite difficult to argue what exactly they will be like. 

On 1/3/2020 at 10:33 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

Thanks to the as yet unknown author of Words of Radiance we know that Willshapers varied greatly in terms of personality but they were know for a "love of adventure, novelty, or oddity."

And that little piece of information is what your entire argumentation is based on. I am not criticising here, after all that is pretty much the only information we have got on Willshapers and based on that information what you say makes a lot of sense. A love of novelty and oddity really does sound like the Willshapers might be based on innovation, ideas or science in some way. I really think that the orders in general are sorted by morality and functionality. Each of the order represents a unique value or moral code - Altruism, Lawfulness, Unity, Logic, et cetera. And sometimes these moralities clash - Windrunners and Skybreakers, Windrunners and Elsecallers, Windrunners and Lightweavers, Skybreakers and Edgedancers... But apart from that, they all seem to be based on specific, well, "jobs" for lack of a better words. Just as the 10 Silver Kingdoms were all specialised on specific tasks, I assume that the 10 orders also are specialised on specific jobs that are important for a society that has to fight against the voidbringers. There are diplomats (Elsecallers), spies (Lightweavers), police (Skybreakers), authority figures (Bondsmiths) and so on. And I guess that Willshaper fit into that categorization as well, since you also need inventors and scientists in a society. My only problem is that this does not seem to involve any sort of moral component, at least none that I can think of.

One of the things that I think are really great about the magic systems expecially on Roshar is how well the magic system corresponds to their users' personality and motives. An order who aims to unite people(s) has powers that literally allow them to unite things and even worlds. An order who are lying and hiding all their lives have the ability to create illusions. So, logically, you should be able to turn that logic around to get information on the orders: Someone who can travel and form things like clay and who is called "Willshaper". Seeing how Dalinar's version of Adhesion seems to work on a Cognitive and/or Spiritual level as well, I imagine that maybe Willshapers will have similiar abilities, allowing them to literally shape other people's will. I expect this to be more of a passive resonance ability, that people around Willshapers will be more susceptible to their arguments. Even if it isn't a real power or resonance, I am very sure that "shaping people's wills/changing their attitude" is at the very least a motif that is connected to the order in some ways. Just like Bondsmiths bring people together, I assume that Willshapers will make people take on new opinions and possibly change their perspectives. I imagine they'll be a little like Kelsier or Gandalf: wandering around, inspiring people, convincing them and/or manipulating them until they have begun to form a new opinion. Lightweavers are spies, Skybreakers are law enforcement and Willshapers, I assume, are some sort of cross between missionary, army recruiter and professional revolutionary  (I also think would be a more interesting POV).

To some of Odium's singer slaves, their slavery is just the continuation of the slavery they endured before, to others it's the final revenge against humanity. But by the end of OB, Venli is apparently working to undermine his rule, sowing distrust and doubts among the Singers and reminding them of the fate of the Parshendi people. She is encouraging them to question their loyalty and their intentions and possibly rebel or join Dalinar.

At least that's my theory on Willshapers. I can't really think of any oaths right now, but I am sure that your theory on the structure of oaths would work here too. 

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2 hours ago, bxcnch said:

But apart from that, they all seem to be based on specific, well, "jobs" for lack of a better words. Just as the 10 Silver Kingdoms were all specialised on specific tasks

That is actually an overstatement. 

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Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)
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Play/Pause
 

Personification

With the ten Silver Kingdoms, what were actually their roles and what kingdoms did they correspond to? Can you say that, or-?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, what do you mean by correspond?

Personification

Did the ten Silver Kingdoms each have a job like Alethela was the kingdom of War?

Brandon Sanderson

They would all consider themselves specialized but it wasn't official like that. It was more like their own philosophy and how they view themselves. And I wouldn't align them straight up with orders of Knights Radiant or anything like that.

Personification

I wasn't saying that, I was saying, maybe different job or it was like--

Brandon Sanderson

They all did kind of have different roles but its not like they had any-- you know, Thaylenah is your navy, right? Its not necessarily that it's-- if that makes sense, but Alethela has like the view of itself, it had a very distinctive view of itself.

Personification

Okay, so it wasn't like each one actually had a different role?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they were not quite, quite, organized enough for that.

 

2 hours ago, bxcnch said:

Even if it isn't a real power or resonance, I am very sure that "shaping people's wills/changing their attitude" is at the very least a motif that is connected to the order in some ways

Or that they shape new ideas or change their mindsets to solve problems.

 

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On 1/3/2020 at 4:33 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

PS I have a bonus in the works where I point out where in SA 4 I think Venli will swear each oath.  I will post it below latter.

It is now latter.

We have seen Venli swear her fist oath already.  In Oathbringer filled with hope that Odium could be defeated she swore the first oath and because the first Parshe in recorded history to gain the spren bond.

Now we move on to speculation.

I think Venli will swear the second oath after a great deal of soul searching and recognizing that in all of Rosharan history only the singers had the guts to try something different.  She will need to come to terms with the fact that her actions in trying to undo all of her people's achievements actually made things worse not better.  She will then resolve to help these new singers back on track.

Venli will begin to take the new singers into her confidences.  Eventually she will make the choice to tell at least a group of them the full truth about their past and allow them to spread that to others.  This will end with a triumphant 2nd ideal swearing.

Actions such as these however are not without consequences.  People are going to notice or overhear and the result will be the death of the new singers as well as Venli's identification as the culprit(this will be kind of obvious).  What follows will be a period of either hiding or imprisonment where Venli debates the worth of giving the singers information that can easily get them killed and has no imitate practical use to them.  In the end she will decided that it is worthw hile but she will have to be more careful in her distribution methods.  She will swear the third oath and begin an information war as she desperately tries to spread the true history of the singers counter to Odium's propaganda machine.

I think this is around the time she will begin to contact team Radiant and potentially exchange information with them.  I think one of two things will happen here.  She will swear the 4th oath as she changes sides or she will not change sides formally but swear it as she agrees to cooperate with other singers as equals(somthing she has had trouble with in the past).

If Venli ever does swear the final oath I think it will be after she has had the arrogance kicked out of her.  She will admit that her actions so far have been self serving and resolve to do better swearing the final ideal.

Feel free to tear down my understanding of character development but keep in mind I defiantly can't write as well as Brandon can even at the outline level.

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  • 4 weeks later...

@Karger

Personally speaking I thought the Dustbringers were the tinkering Order although from the post I understand your reasoning behind your supposition.  Their spren have been described as ones that like to take things apart to see how they work. Although Malata has so far shown no signs of a tinkering nature we don't know much about her at this point in time. 

The main reason why I disagree with the thrust of this post is that none of the Oaths proposed fit Eshonai.  Venli bonded Timbre but it was her sister that drew her from the Cognitive Realm in the first place.  Venli was a stopgap not a perfect fit like say Shallan for Lightweaver or Kaladin for Windrunner.  As for the job they'd perform in the Knights original incarnation,  I'd have called them more diplomat than inventor. I could be wrong though. 

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1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

none of the Oaths proposed fit Eshonai

The first oath is largely from the Eshonai tone chapter released by Brandon.  Also the Eshonai we know is a depressed and sad version of what she presumably was earlier.

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Venli was a stopgap not a perfect fit like say Shallan for Lightweaver or Kaladin for Windrunner

Maybe.  She does seem to have more in common with her sister then it seemed initially.

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

As for the job they'd perform in the Knights original incarnation,  I'd have called them more diplomat than inventor. I could be wrong though. 

Considering the gemstone archive shows that the willshapers did not like rules and the WoR called them an uncut gem and Eshonai's own attempts at diplomacy I feel preing tty confident in saying that they were not diplomats. 

Edited by Karger
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The Eshonai I was referring to was her earlier incarnation,  unreliable,  lover of adventures, prone to wonder off at a whim, lover of map making.  Early Eshonai fits all that we've been told a Willshaper resembles in temperament. The way in which she is similar to Venli lies in exploration, although it's expressed differently.  Regardless,  the soul of a diplomat to me is the same as the drive that makes a Worldsinger, someone who finds joy in differences. They need not be diplomatic always but the love of difference drives them to the next journey. 

I have some trouble placing Willshapers into the KR job structure.  If not diplomats then what would they be? I don't believe they're engineers or scholars for other Orders fit that role better IMO (Dustbringer and Elsecaller  respectively). Another possibility would be scouts but Windrunners have that on lock per WOB. They aren't overly political nor overly militaristic.  They share some common ground with merchants if the Rsyn chapters are anything to go by but they aren't totally that either. Diplomat for me checks the most boxes. And note, for all Eshonai's faults her people did make her an ambassador for them anyway, one with a strong voice despite her youth relative to the Five. Gotta count for something. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

You might want to change the wording of the Second and Third Ideals. Willshapers aren't just innovators, they are also free thinkers, discoverers, pioneers. You'll need broader words or perhaps the words could have variations depending on the fields of interest of individual Willshapers

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On 2/25/2020 at 10:07 PM, Dreamer said:

You might want to change the wording of the Second and Third Ideals. Willshapers aren't just innovators, they are also free thinkers, discoverers, pioneers. You'll need broader words or perhaps the words could have variations depending on the fields of interest of individual Willshapers

Will shape thank you.

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  • 3 months later...

We now know more about the Willshapers (along with all the other orders) but you actually weren’t far off. Willshapers focus on freedom, and respect people’s ability to choose. So the Ideals will probably be along those lines, but they are innovators.

Well maybe innovators isn’t the right word, but they were builders and shapers. 

Second Ideal will probably be something like “I respect others ability to choose freely” or more personal: “I will choose for myself the path I am to take” (though if that’s correct, the following Ideals would vary dramatically from Radiant to Radiant) 

Willshapers seem like the type to free POWs, so thinking along those lines the third might be: “I will work to free those who are captive” or: “I will fight against oppressors in the name of freedom”

I think you were pretty close for the Fourth Ideal, probably something along the lines of “I will trust the decisions others make, and not judge them for it” (though that seems close to what I said for the second Ideal, so one of these is probably wrong.)

the Fifth Ideal though, is probably less “I will work for them, not for me”  and more “I will protect those who have Chosen their own path” or “I will teach others so they are capable of choosing their own way” 

Would these Ideals work? Maybe, but probably better in a different order. Though considering the focus on freedom, Willshapers Ideals are most likely less binding, something closer to the Lightweavers rather then Skybreakers. Also Couldn’t figure a way to incorporate building/shaping into an ideal, but it seems likely that it would be in there somewhere. 

Edit: Sorry I know you were going to edit this theory based on our new information, I probably should have waited, just couldn’t resist! 

Edited by Hentient
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