Fullborn vs Errbody

[NameIess]

31 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

That is an interesting point, and it raises some questions about Kelsier in Mistborn Secret History, as he lasted much longer than the others who died. Perhaps that is because he was burning Malatium at the time, but it might also be that due to his connection to Preservation as a Mistborn, the investiture that makes up that connection was being consumed to sustain him - in short, if it wasn't because he was burning Malatium at the moment of his death, and as Leras said a Feruchemist would also list longer than a regular person, it could be that the connection to the power gives the soul more power even when the power isn't being used.

Spoilered for length:

Spoiler

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

Questioner

Is a Mistborn Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

The Mistborn, how they're burning the metal, you're right. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, the yes. Before, no, you're right on that.

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

Questioner

Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

Mistborn are invested over time, by the metals they burn, like it leaves some kind of residue.

11 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Considering how Invested a Fullborn is, there is a good chance that won't work

Edit: to put into perspective just how Invested a Fullborn is, Wax while holding the Bands which would have just had a fraction of the Investiture a Fullborn could have on them was the second most Invested non Shardic entity we have seen.

A shardblade is more invested than the bands of mourning:

Quote

Questioner

You've said that Shardblades can be made in other magic systems. So if it's not like a Shardblade from Roshar, what makes it a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

The "Shard" refers to the heavy Investiture of a Shard of Adonalsium. Most of what you’ll see will see are the Roshar ones, but it is technically possible to make them out of the other magic systems. It's going to be a heavily invested magical weapon, is kind of how I would define it.

Questioner

So are the Bands [of Mourning] one?

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call them one, but they are close. They're not Invested enough.

A fullborn would be highly invested by the residual power, but even if they were tapping completely full metalminds at an unsustainable rate, which they would have no reason to do, as they cannot see the threat, they would still be less invested than a shardblade. It is possible to soulcast highly invested objects like Shardplate:

Quote

Questioner

Can Shardplate be Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardplate could be Soulcast, but anything Invested is very difficult to Soulcast and it would essentially destroy it. Which would be one of the few ways to destroy Shardplate.

So with Dalinar basically giving Jasnah an infinite amount of stormlight, it should be possible to soulcast the fullborn.

[SirWolfe]

If the battle is taking place near Elantris, a single skilled Elantrian could probably take our Fullborn down by spamming Aon Daa. 

On Threnody, all you need to do is get the Fullborn to draw blood. Not that hard when they are trying to kill you. Then you let the Shades do their thing.

 

[Halyo_Alex]

19 minutes ago, SirWolfe said:

If the battle is taking place near Elantris, a single skilled Elantrian could probably take our Fullborn down by spamming Aon Daa. 

On Threnody, all you need to do is get the Fullborn to draw blood. Not that hard when they are trying to kill you. Then you let the Shades do their thing.

 

The problem with the Threnody bit is that Aluminum actually cures Shade withering (so, 1, an Aluminum gnat would actually have a use on Threnody, huzzah, and 2, this means that if the Fullborn knows he/she is gonna be going to Threnody, then it's possible that they bring Aluminum with them).

[SirWolfe]

29 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

The problem with the Threnody bit is that Aluminum actually cures Shade withering (so, 1, an Aluminum gnat would actually have a use on Threnody, huzzah, and 2, this means that if the Fullborn knows he/she is gonna be going to Threnody, then it's possible that they bring Aluminum with them).

That's true, but they'd need a very large amount of it, as the Shades will swarm them and continue attacking until they die. Even if they had a huge amount of aluminum, they would run out eventually.

[+ILuvHats]

57 minutes ago, SirWolfe said:

That's true, but they'd need a very large amount of it, as the Shades will swarm them and continue attacking until they die. Even if they had a huge amount of aluminum, they would run out eventually.

Or, you know, the Fullborn could just steelrun the hell out of there. We’ve no reason to believe shades can move that much faster than people, so they’ll soon move beyond the range of the shades enraged by blood. And we don’t know how shades would react to steel running, or whether they’d even be able to register it as running simply due to how fast it is. If it doesn’t register as running, all the fullborn has to do is stop a dozen or so miles from the bloodshed. If the shades react to it like normal running, the worst case scenario is that the fullborn has to get to a safe zone like Silence’s inn.

[SirWolfe]

@Ooklidean Geometry I forgot about the other metals... 

[Honorless]

Uh... A Fullborn with any kind of preparation is someone who can probably really only be stopped by Investiture hacking or dumb luck or divine intervention. An Elantrian in Elantris or the Heralds should probably be able to fight them but we know so little about their full capabilities that it's difficult to imagine a battle scenario. 

[HSuperLee]

I think the only real way to kill a Fullborn by force alone is with powerful explosives, as you need to blast their gold away from them. The problem is, if a Fullborn knows what they're doing, they'll basically be living in bullet time and with beyond Daredevil senses as well as the ability to see trace metals. Its kind of hard to hide something from them and still get it close. I do think Elantrians could do it, but I think they'd need to set up a giant aon that turns gold into something else. But it would have to be huge, to the point I'm imagining Era 4 Elantrians having what are essentially orbital defense cannons designed to deter Fullborn, and that being considered the safest place in the Cosmere. I legitimately don't know that a radiant can hold enough investiture to soulcast a Fullborn's metalminds, and I certainly don't think they could do it fast enough to not get slaughtered.

The best mundane option I can think of would be to create some kind of aluminum frag grenade and hope that when it explodes, one of the fragments hits a bindpoint and spikes their powers away.

But yeah, Fullborn are terrifyingly powerful, and as I have said many times I shall say many more. They will be the Cosmere Equivalents of Kryptonians in Era 4.

[Honorless]

TLR has survived explosions, as well as decapitation, being set on fire, etc before, plus Bindpoints are a Hemalurgic thing. Being Fullborn means they have access to Compounding, so they'd most likely survive.

Spoiler

Remember Renarin being crushed by the Thunderclast and surviving? That's what Fullborn are capable of

 

[HSuperLee]

Just now, Honorless said:

TLR has survived explosions, as well as decapitation, being set on fire, etc before, plus Bindpoints are a Hemalurgic thing. Being Fullborn means they have access to Compounding, so they'd most likely survive.

  Reveal hidden contents

Remember Renarin being crushed by the Thunderclast and surviving? That's what Fullborn are capable of

 

I am aware he survived explosions. I mean, Miles would carry dynamite for the specific purpose of blowing himself up to escape bindings, But with a high enough power explosion, you could theoretically blast their body and their gold in different directions. Or just get the gold hot enough to evaporate it (though that would have to be very hot to do quickly.) I'm just saying that's more reasonable than other methods of harm. For example, basically no amount of bullets is going to hurt a Fullborn, but powerful enough explosions might.

As for the bindpoints, I know those are hemalurgic. I'm pointing out that our current belief is that aluminum spikes remove all a person's powers, and so an aluminum frag grenade might hit a bindpoint and make one of the fragments a spike.

[Tglassy]

I suppose if you threw the grenade with the INTENT on spiking him, that might work, but I think you have to both know where the spike is going and have the intent on stealing the attribute.  I think you have to KNOW all the things involved, and INTEND on doing it, for it to work.

 

Heat wouldn't work.  He could just store the heat in Brass and it wouldn't touch him.  

 

Shock wave might, but again, he'd be able to increase his strength a millionfold, and then burn Pewter, thus making his body almost impossible to destroy in that manner.  The wounds would heal as they are made, and his body would be too strong to just disintegrate.  If Storing Investiture, and then tapping it later, really would increase his Allomantic power, then he is able to compound that investiture to have an infinite amount, thus making his Allomancy just as infinite as his Feruchemy, thus making his Pewter so powerful it basically renders him indestructible.  

 

We may have to just face it.  Fullborn for the win.  

[StarrFall]

3 hours ago, Honorless said:

Uh... A Fullborn with any kind of preparation is someone who can probably really only be stopped by Investiture hacking or dumb luck or divine intervention. An Elantrian in Elantris or the Heralds should probably be able to fight them but we know so little about their full capabilities that it's difficult to imagine a battle scenario. 

Think Miles' execution: even without any ability to compound metals other than gold, he was able to survive a few volleys from the firing squad due to the F-Gold embedded somewhere in his body that the law wasn't able to find/remove.  If Miles could compound almost any single physical attribute in addition to health then he would likely have been able to fight his way free and would never be caught on Scadrial during that age; if he could compound every physical trait and further use Allomancy...  Regardless of the relationship between Harmony (the Ruin half) and embedded metal, it stands to reason that if Miles can bury that much metal in himself in the age of Harmony then a Fullborn could also embed at least one strategic set/subset of emergency metalminds completely within their body without too much detriment, which could be used to avoid even powerful Allomancers and escape. A Fullborn could literally regroup at the bottom of the ocean at their leisure if they wanted to, so unless they are completely destroyed in a single blow then there is no way.

We know that at least some Shards cannot directly affect an individual to the point of destruction (even if destruction is their Intent, as Ruin's is) and that they must work through the constructs of their Invested worlds/people, and it may be that is how they all are (Nightwatcher??), so maybe not even a Shard could do that job directly.

 

On 12/29/2019 at 9:20 PM, Zinc_compounder said:

There are two or three I can think of 1v1ing a Fullborn, but only with some Earth science knowledge, and waaay too much Investiture. A Lightweaver or Elsecaller making antimatter, a Lightweaver or Truthewatcher going gamma, and a Skybreaker or Windrunner making a black hole. Yes, they'd die too, but the Fullborn would be dead. And the planet.

 

Though, with further thought, an Elantrian might be able to, with enough knowledge, as well as our Wildcards of Hoid (Fullborn potentially+Lightweaver+Awakener, at least) and Frost (big fat question mark).

Not sure what affect antimatter would have as I am ignorant there, but going gamma should blast the body apart enough that embedded metal minds would no longer work and dropping a fullborn on a stable black hole would probably kill them the moment their F-Iron filled up.  I'd guess that any modern bomb that is capable of vaporizing a body would do the trick too (nuclear, MOAB-esque or otherwise) but the Cosmere is unlikely to see that kind of tech until the end of the Scadrial arc, if then.

 

[Tglassy]

Woops.  Double post.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Tglassy

[Bigmikey357]

The Hemalurgic alluminum frag grenade method won't work to strip power; hemalurgy works by intent only. It could make wounds that will be difficult to heal until the fragment is extracted but it will not take the powers away.  We're going to need a traitor in his midst to get close enough, an ettmetal bomb strapped to the guy's body, strong cologne to attempt to mask  the smell of explosives, and a hug similar Brutus, aluminum knife in hand. Go in for the hug, stab the Fullborn,  detonate the bomb. No monologues, soliloquies or last words allowed.  Only by disintegrating the Fullborn can he be killed. 

I'm also holding out hope that a super powered Elsecaller can Soulcast his metals away from the CR to make him at least a little more manageable. 

[Honorless]

6 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

I am aware he survived explosions. I mean, Miles would carry dynamite for the specific purpose of blowing himself up to escape bindings, But with a high enough power explosion, you could theoretically blast their body and their gold in different directions. Or just get the gold hot enough to evaporate it (though that would have to be very hot to do quickly.) I'm just saying that's more reasonable than other methods of harm. For example, basically no amount of bullets is going to hurt a Fullborn, but powerful enough explosions might.

As for the bindpoints, I know those are hemalurgic. I'm pointing out that our current belief is that aluminum spikes remove all a person's powers, and so an aluminum frag grenade might hit a bindpoint and make one of the fragments a spike.

Again, as long as the Fullborn started off with enough metal or Investiture, the biggest piece of them left over from the explosion would just regenerate (though with the Metallic Arts, it might work differently, maybe with the piece in contact with the gold). You have to remove and depower them first to be able to hurt them.

You have to know and aim for a Hemalurgic bindpoint to create a spike, randomly throwing them isn't going to work.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Honorless

[StanLemon]

7 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

I am aware he survived explosions. I mean, Miles would carry dynamite for the specific purpose of blowing himself up to escape bindings, But with a high enough power explosion, you could theoretically blast their body and their gold in different directions. Or just get the gold hot enough to evaporate it (though that would have to be very hot to do quickly.) I'm just saying that's more reasonable than other methods of harm. For example, basically no amount of bullets is going to hurt a Fullborn, but powerful enough explosions might.

As for the bindpoints, I know those are hemalurgic. I'm pointing out that our current belief is that aluminum spikes remove all a person's powers, and so an aluminum frag grenade might hit a bindpoint and make one of the fragments a spike.

With A-Bendalloy, F-Zinc, F-Steel, a Fullborn could easily avoid the explosion

[Zinc_compounder]

6 hours ago, StarrFall said:

Think Miles' execution: even without any ability to compound metals other than gold, he was able to survive a few volleys from the firing squad due to the F-Gold embedded somewhere in his body that the law wasn't able to find/remove.  If Miles could compound almost any single physical attribute in addition to health then he would likely have been able to fight his way free and would never be caught on Scadrial during that age; if he could compound every physical trait and further use Allomancy...  Regardless of the relationship between Harmony (the Ruin half) and embedded metal, it stands to reason that if Miles can bury that much metal in himself in the age of Harmony then a Fullborn could also embed at least one strategic set/subset of emergency metalminds completely within their body without too much detriment, which could be used to avoid even powerful Allomancers and escape. A Fullborn could literally regroup at the bottom of the ocean at their leisure if they wanted to, so unless they are completely destroyed in a single blow then there is no way.

We know that at least some Shards cannot directly affect an individual to the point of destruction (even if destruction is their Intent, as Ruin's is) and that they must work through the constructs of their Invested worlds/people, and it may be that is how they all are (Nightwatcher??), so maybe not even a Shard could do that job directly.

 

Not sure what affect antimatter would have as I am ignorant there, but going gamma should blast the body apart enough that embedded metal minds would no longer work and dropping a fullborn on a stable black hole would probably kill them the moment their F-Iron filled up.  I'd guess that any modern bomb that is capable of vaporizing a body would do the trick too (nuclear, MOAB-esque or otherwise) but the Cosmere is unlikely to see that kind of tech until the end of the Scadrial arc, if then.

 

In regards to antimatter, basically, when it comes in contact with a quantity of normal matter, an equal amount of antimatter and matter is destroyed, all be converted into energy by E=mc^2. Basically, a massive generation of energy, with any macroscopic object. Similar to what a Lightweaver might do with the entirety of the electromagnetic spectrum, but probably more Investiture efficient.

[StarrFall]

9 hours ago, Zinc_compounder said:

In regards to antimatter, basically, when it comes in contact with a quantity of normal matter, an equal amount of antimatter and matter is destroyed, all be converted into energy by E=mc^2. Basically, a massive generation of energy, with any macroscopic object. Similar to what a Lightweaver might do with the entirety of the electromagnetic spectrum, but probably more Investiture efficient.

I figured it was something like that, but I don't like to make uninformed assumptions where scientific facts are involved (at least not when I know I'm ignorant on the topic).  Makes sense that it would be more efficient too as the mass of antimatter required to destroy is the mass of what you are destroying, where an explosion is an omni-directional event with a lot of energy going to waste (in this context).  In Cosmere terms, I'd guess that the energy released would be Investiture, so could be some cool implications there too.

If this all stands up then I'd view that ability as the most likely to destroy a Fullborn without trickery, insane luck/Shardic assistance, or destroying a large chunk of the landscape the Fullborn is standing on at the same time.  Roshar will need to seriously up its' science game if it will ever produce an individual who figures that little trick out though...

Edited January 7, 2020 by StarrFall

[Bigmikey357]

Luckily there's no such thing as a naturally occurring Fullborn.  I have to believe that any attempt to create one gets squashed by Shardic intervention.  I'd be more worried if Odium was running Scadrial though. 

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Luckily there's no such thing as a naturally occurring Fullborn.  I have to believe that any attempt to create one gets squashed by Shardic intervention.  I'd be more worried if Odium was running Scadrial though. 

Era 4 would be a facist dictatorship enforced by unkillable gods.

[StarrFall]

2 hours ago, Llstml said:

Era 4 would be a facist dictatorship enforced by unkillable gods.

More likely that Odium would try to alter all of the systems to eliminate the possibility for any potential threats that might rise up to challenge him, and on Scadrial specifically would try to expand on Sazed's work of changing Feruchemy/Allomancy to break those systems down even further.  Not sure if he can achieve that in short order without actually taking up Harmony, but he'd probably eventually win that battle (and all others across the board) by building up his Investiture on the planet over time.

Edited January 7, 2020 by StarrFall
I previously said something stupid, round 2

[StanLemon]

6 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Luckily there's no such thing as a naturally occurring Fullborn.  I have to believe that any attempt to create one gets squashed by Shardic intervention.  I'd be more worried if Odium was running Scadrial though. 

Technically Brandon has said that a naturally occurring Fullborn could happen, it would just be very unlikely. 

I'm actually curious what kind of magic system would develop on Scadrial if Odium Invested himself there