Mistborn vs Else

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Booknerd said:

That was Lightblood not me get the person you are talking about right.

Using my phone. That is what came up. I was in the process of correcting the post

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Using my phone. That is what came up. I was in the process of correcting the post

No problem phones are hard to use here.

[Lightblood]

Well I was saying it mostly as a joke but it does raise the question where does the investiture go when Chromium is used. But yeah mostly for comedic affect. I mean even if the larkin "took back" the investiture then the knight radiant wouldn't have it. It would have gone KR --> Mistborn --> Larkin. So even if It worked like that it wouldnt end with the KR getting his investiture back. But on the flip side we don't know what would happen if Chromium is used with stormlight, we know that with allomatic powers it just disappears but we don't neccessarily would do the same with all types of investiture.

 

Now Someone's probably gonna find a WOB to make me eat my words but that's the extent of my knowledge at least

[Frustration]

A Sandmaster, one who can slathrify, on the day side of Taldin would just have fun making Mistborn soup. An awakener with Nightblood would needless to say be ruthlessly efficient at it. I see a lot of ways this ends with a dead mistborn.

[Gisaku75]

there is a reason why Sanderson eliminated mistborns in the second era. With temporal metals they are practically invincible. Just read Alloy of The Law. Wayne's biggest weakness is psychological, and therefore would not affect a normal mistborn. Thanks to his super senses and super reflexes a mistborn could do what Wax does at the end of the book. Take aim well with a coin inside the time bubble and shoot it exactly in the eyeball of the enemy, perhaps with a push of duralumin. Recreate the bubble, replenish the metals and then start over. The weak point of the regeneration of the Radiant is that they cannot expel or destroy the objects inside them. And until they do, their brain is damaged and they lose motor and cognitive functions. Getting a dime out of your skull is practically impossible in the middle of a fight, and your chances of escaping depend on how much you've lost your cognitive and motor functions. With this system a Mistborn can make his opponents helpless before they can even think of doing something.

[Pathfinder]

27 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

there is a reason why Sanderson eliminated mistborns in the second era. With temporal metals they are practically invincible. Just read Alloy of The Law. Wayne's biggest weakness is psychological, and therefore would not affect a normal mistborn. Thanks to his super senses and super reflexes a mistborn could do what Wax does at the end of the book. Take aim well with a coin inside the time bubble and shoot it exactly in the eyeball of the enemy, perhaps with a push of duralumin. Recreate the bubble, replenish the metals and then start over. The weak point of the regeneration of the Radiant is that they cannot expel or destroy the objects inside them. And until they do, their brain is damaged and they lose motor and cognitive functions. Getting a dime out of your skull is practically impossible in the middle of a fight, and your chances of escaping depend on how much you've lost your cognitive and motor functions. With this system a Mistborn can make his opponents helpless before they can even think of doing something.

There is a "cool down" effect in place with time bubbles though. You pop one up, then drop it, then you have to wait a certain amount of time before you can pop it back up. It is not instant. 

[Bigmikey357]

And you can't shoot someone outside your time bubble from inside it. 

[Kalaksbreath]

I could take a mistborn with an aluminum pistol or rifle and a good ambush. 

[Gisaku75]

19 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

There is a "cool down" effect in place with time bubbles though. You pop one up, then drop it, then you have to wait a certain amount of time before you can pop it back up. It is not instant. 

Source? On Coppermind he makes no mention of this flaw, nor in the books. Wayne only says that using speed bubbles to rob trains would be too expensive. You have to burn the metal, move, then turn it off and then reactivate it because the bubble cannot be moved. the time interval between one bubble and another can be a few tenths of a second.

 

15 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

And you can't shoot someone outside your time bubble from inside it. 

in fact, that's not what I said. Re-read the AoL ending. Wax has to hit a moving bullet, so he calculates the trajectory inside the bubble and then shoots when Wayne drops the bubble.

[Pathfinder]

49 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

Source? On Coppermind he makes no mention of this flaw, nor in the books. Wayne only says that using speed bubbles to rob trains would be too expensive. You have to burn the metal, move, then turn it off and then reactivate it because the bubble cannot be moved. the time interval between one bubble and another can be a few tenths of a second.

This is the first one that came up though if i recall correctly it is mentioned two more times. Im on my phone right now so if you give me to later in the day i can pull them up but here is the first mention below:

 

Alloy of Law page 279

Impressive as it was, though, it was a delaying tactic. With so many men firing on him, Wayne couldn’t risk moving any closer. He had to wait momentarily between creating speed bubbles, and if he was too close to the men, there was a good chance they’d be able to aim, shoot, and hit him in the seconds that he was exposed. The longer Wayne tried to dodge, the better the men shooting at him would get at judging the pauses. If he tried it too long, he’d get hit.

 

Edit: found a more precise quote below

 

Alloy of Law page 111

But in a long fight, they’d eventually catch on and hold their fire until just after Wayne dropped a bubble. It took a couple of seconds between dropping one and putting up another, the time when Wayne was most vulnerable. Of course, even when the bubble was up, Wayne wasn’t completely safe. It could be nerve-racking to know that his friend was fighting alone, enclosed by a bubble of accelerated time. If Wayne got into trouble while inside, Waxillium couldn’t help. Wayne would be shot and bleeding before the bubble collapsed.

Quote

in fact, that's not what I said. Re-read the AoL ending. Wax has to hit a moving bullet, so he calculates the trajectory inside the bubble and then shoots when Wayne drops the bubble.

Thats what he was saying.  I believe the misunderstanding is the way you wrote your initial post made it sound like a mistborn could keep a speed bubble up, and then fire through it with a duralumin push.  That wouldnt work because the bullet would deflect regardless, and burning duralumin would also affect the speed bubble as it burns in a rush all currently burning metals, which bendalloy would be included. What he was saying is you would have to do like wax, which is fire, burn the speed bubble, judge the trajectory, then fire and push the second bullet just as the bubble drops. It is mentioned that the reason wax is so good with shooting is he is a steel savant. This is a WoB that i will pull up later. So the mistborn in this case would have to focus especially in steel and iron to do so. Then there is also the implication in the novels that wax is especially unique in this accomplishment. So i dont know if I would consider this in a normal mistborns wheelhouse of abilities

Edited March 11, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Staenbridge]

On 09/01/2020 at 6:40 PM, robardin said:

Yes, but an Allomancer would stop burning atium until Kaladin was in range and a threat or legitimate target. And there is a big difference between an atium Misting like Yomen, and a Mistborn with a mean streak like Kelsier.

If the Surgebinder (presuming for the moment that they're a Windrunner) understood Atium, then they'd just sit a ways away and start lobbing rocks at you with Basic Lashings. A fist-size rock that's been falling for a hundred yards is not something you want to get hit by, and at some point as you throw more of them you either force the Mistborn to dance and use up their iron/steel/pewter, or use atium for more economical dodges. Alternatively, Shardbows work too. Stay at a range where you can't dodge them reflexively and the only option is to use Atium or copious amounts of Steel. 

[StanLemon]

5 hours ago, Staenbridge said:

If the Surgebinder (presuming for the moment that they're a Windrunner) understood Atium, then they'd just sit a ways away and start lobbing rocks at you with Basic Lashings. A fist-size rock that's been falling for a hundred yards is not something you want to get hit by, and at some point as you throw more of them you either force the Mistborn to dance and use up their iron/steel/pewter, or use atium for more economical dodges. Alternatively, Shardbows work too. Stay at a range where you can't dodge them reflexively and the only option is to use Atium or copious amounts of Steel. 

You say that it would use a lot of metal to dodge but ignore that it would use up a lot of Stormlight to use those Lashings. Also, if you are adding Shardbows into this then you have to let Mistborn have weapons outside of their powers.

[Frustration]

14 hours ago, StanLemon said:

You say that it would use a lot of metal to dodge but ignore that it would use up a lot of Stormlight to use those Lashings. Also, if you are adding Shardbows into this then you have to let Mistborn have weapons outside of their powers.

Plate blocks coins, one of the main problems I have with these scenarios are the Mistborn fandom refusing to accept that a Radiant could cut down Lerasium Mistborn without too much trouble Atium is the only chance Allomancers have and even then Atium burns too quickly for it to change things a fifth Ideal Radiant of any Order is practically unbeatable by a Mistborns perspective.

[NameIess]

30 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Plate blocks coins, one of the main problems I have with these scenarios are the Mistborn fandom refusing to accept that a Radiant could cut down Lerasium Mistborn without too much trouble Atium is the only chance Allomancers have and even then Atium burns too quickly for it to change things a fifth Ideal Radiant of any Order is practically unbeatable by a Mistborns perspective.

With Atium, a Mistborn could win a close range fight with a fifth ideal Radiant.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

With Atium, a Mistborn could win a close range fight with a fifth ideal Radiant.

What on Earth gives them the power to break plate?

Also Shardblades,  one shot dead, Vin is not the only person who can change what they are going to do in a split second.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

What on Earth gives them the power to break plate?

Knife through the eyeslit? duraluminum powered pewter punch? shooting a chunk of metal the size of your fist into the Radiant at 100+ miles an hour?

2 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Also Shardblades,  one shot dead, Vin is not the only person who can change what they are going to do in a split second.

Edit- Someone like Kaladin could be able to do that, but an average Radiant? Nope.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Nameless

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

Knife through the eyeslit? 

My personal opinion is live plate could close Eyeslits and the Helm was completely see through.

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

duraluminum powered pewter punch? shooting a chunk of metal the size of your fist into the Radiant at 100+ miles an hour?

And when the Radiant imeadiatly fixes it? Then what your mistborn is out of pewter and getting more means slowing down, slowing down means death.

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Atium gives you the mental capacity to process and react to the shadows.

Ask Zane how that worked out for him.

[+Oltux72]

33 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Plate blocks coins, one of the main problems I have with these scenarios are the Mistborn fandom refusing to accept that a Radiant could cut down Lerasium Mistborn without too much trouble Atium is the only chance Allomancers have and even then Atium burns too quickly for it to change things a fifth Ideal Radiant of any Order is practically unbeatable by a Mistborns perspective.

If he finds his opponent. And that is not a trivial problem. Combat cannot be reduced to a single number. You have attack, defense, sensors, stealth, endurance ...

All these factors have an importance that is defined by environment and mission. THere is no universal answer unless the match is totally disproportionate. All these comparisons are meaningless unless you at least give an environment.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

If he finds his opponent. And that is not a trivial problem. Combat cannot be reduced to a single number. You have attack, defense, sensors, stealth, endurance ...

All these factors have an importance that is defined by environment and mission. THere is no universal answer unless the match is totally disproportionate. All these comparisons are meaningless unless you at least give an environment.

Unless you want an assassination, Radiant wins always 

[NameIess]

8 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Ask Zane how that worked out for him.

I thought you were saying that Vin was the only person that could process Atium shadows, I edited my post.

[+Oltux72]

Just now, Booknerd said:

Unless you want an assassination, Radiant wins always 

That is the civilian term for what military people call an ambush or a surprise attack. If you are in range and the KR has Plate and Blade out, of course he will win. If.

For the Mistborn to let this happen would be a mistake. So would he? Depends on the environment. In an open desert I would bet on the Radiant, in an abandoned modern city full of metal I bet on the Mistborn.

The best you can do is give advantages:

Armor, close distance attack, healing: Radiant is better
Senses, stealth, endurance, agility: the Mistborn is better
Mobility: undecided, depends on specifics

[Frustration]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

Senses, stealth, endurance, agility: the Mistborn is better

ever heard of basic uses of Stormlight, it gives endurance and agility, and A lightweaver would laugh at mistborn stealth.

20 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Someone like Kaladin could be able to do that, but an average Radiant? Nope.

In the modern Radiants we aren't seeing it but the older Orders would be full of people capable enough, and by the time we see people get to fifth Ideal more should be capable.

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

For the Mistborn to let this happen would be a mistake. So would he? Depends on the environment. In an open desert I would bet on the Radiant, in an abandoned modern city full of metal I bet on the Mistborn.

A Mistborn is seriously undercut in both damage dealt and received a Radiant can take everything a Mistborn throws at them and have a one shot kill in hand.

[NameIess]

23 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

My personal opinion is live plate could close Eyeslits and the Helm was completely see through.

We don't know that for sure, so we can't use that for the theoretical fight.

23 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

And when the Radiant imeadiatly fixes it? Then what your mistborn is out of pewter and getting more means slowing down, slowing down means death.

And while the Mistborn's fist is still impeded in the Radiant's chest, they wipe out all of the Radiant's stormlight. Then the Radiant then dies of their injuries. I'm not saying that Mistborn would win every time, but against the peaceful orders they have a good chance of winning.

1 minute ago, Booknerd said:

ever heard of basic uses of Stormlight, it gives endurance and agility, and A lightweaver would laugh at mistborn stealth.

A Mistborn can detect illusions with bronze or copper. (I always forget which is which.)

2 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

In the modern Radiants we aren't seeing it but the older Orders would be full of people capable enough, and by the time we see people get to fifth Ideal more should be capable.

A Mistborn being prepared for something like that basically ruins the entire strategy. Also, Zane was just toying with Vin, he was completely sure of his own victory.

4 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

A Mistborn is seriously undercut in both damage dealt and received a Radiant can take everything a Mistborn throws at them and have a one shot kill in hand.

A Mistborn with all sixteen metals and atium could probably beat most of the orders fairly easily. Only the more combat oriented ones could potentially survive.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

We don't know that for sure, so we can't use that for the theoretical fight.

Fair enough

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

And while the Mistborn's fist is still impeded in the Radiant's chest, they wipe out all of the Radiant's stormlight. Then the Radiant then dies of their injuries. I'm not saying that Mistborn would win every time, but against the peaceful orders they have a good chance of winning.

What injuries all the force is dispersed by the plate the Radiant wouldn't feel anything. And in staying Radiant either punches them dead, or shardblades them as they turn to leave.

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

A Mistborn can detect illusions with bronze or copper. (I always forget which is which.)

It's bronze base metal is pulling alloy is pushing, and then what?  If the Mistborn knows about illusions then the lightweaver knows about Bronze and  puts an illusion on a sphere to stage an ambush

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

A Mistborn being prepared for something like that basically ruins the entire strategy. Also, Zane was just toying with Vin, he was completely sure of his own victory.

A Radiant being prepared for that covers their plate in Aluminum and is immune to Atium we can play the whole oh, there is this way around it for time and all eternity.

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Mistborn with all sixteen metals and atium could probably beat most of the orders fairly easily. Only the more combat oriented ones could potentially survive.

Alright all Orders win strategies 

Windrunner: Fly outmaneuver the slower more erratic Mistborn and Sharblade them in the back

Skybreaker: Fly outmaneuver the slower more erratic Mistborn and Sharblade/ division them in the back

Dustbringer: (assuming abrasion works the same as edgedancer) Slide around confuse then Sharblade/ division

Edgedancer: Slide around completely heal from anything, and then Shardblade

Truthwatcher: Observe your opponent know what they are doing, completely heal from everything and wait for it... Shardblade

Lightweaver: Create distracer illusion, the Shardblade/soulcast

Elsecaller: Soulcast from CR

Willshaper: Shardblade

Stoneward: Trap opponent in case of solid rock then Shardblade 

Bondsmith: Punch them until they stop moving and then remove the head.

 

[+Oltux72]

6 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

ever heard of basic uses of Stormlight, it gives endurance and agility,

While it lasts. And it will last minutes. Metals in a vial will last years and inside the Mistborn all day long. If the Radiant can force a quick confrontation he will win. If.
And again that depends on the environment. If the Mistborn can just fly away, he has an advantage.

6 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

and A lightweaver would laugh at mistborn stealth.

Well, no. Hoid detected Shallan. THe Radiant has no equivalent of tin and bronze and that will hurt. Againto an extent that is dependent to an extreme degree on environment.

6 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

A Mistborn is seriously undercut in both damage dealt and received

Yes. A straight exchange of blows ends with a Radiant win. But can the Radiant force that situation. Either can potentially kill the other. A squashed head will end a Radiant. A sufficiently deep fall will also end him.

6 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

a Radiant can take everything a Mistborn throws at them and have a one shot kill in hand.

While in Plate. It won't be worn 24/7.