Mistborn vs Else

[Honorless]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

If you take issue with the way I speak, please report my posts to the forum moderators. They will then review the posts for any inflammatory speech against the rules they presented. If they feel it applies, they will then reach out to me and discuss what the issue is, and how to resolve it. I do not see the moderator title on your profile. Are you in the process of becoming one? If not, then please follow the procedure in the site rules and report the posts you take issue with. Thank you. 

Path, seriously? All I'm asking you to do is tone down the snark a little a bit

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Honorless said:

Path, seriously? All I'm asking you to do is tone down the snark a little a bit

All I am asking you is to follow forum guidelines. If you take issue with what I say, report me as per the rules. 

[Honorless]

This is your response to someone asking you to be non-confrontational or at least less condescending?

You know what? Not my problem! 

[StanLemon]

10 hours ago, Llstml said:

There have been at least two WoBs about Vin Vs Kaladin:

And another one with Kelsier:

And then another one with Windrunners and Mistborn in general:

Brandon has said two times that Kaladin would beat Vin in a straight up fight, once that Kaladin would beat Kelsier, one time that Windrunners in general will beat Mistborn in general in a direct fight, and zero times that a Mistborn would beat a Windrunner in a straight up fight. Brandon has considered this, and even if he hadn't, he is the author, and we have nothing in the books that contradicts this directly, meaning this is the canonical answer, and the only thing that can be argued about is what a "battelfield" is.

The issue it seems is what Brandon means by "battlefield." That doesn't necessarily mean a straight up fight. As @Gisaku75 posted with his WoB, a simple Atium Misting could beat Kaladin unless Kal could get the Misting to use up all his Atium. In a wide open area? Yeah Kaladin would probably have the advantage. But an area with lots of buildings for a Mistborn to Push/Pull and hide and sneak up on Kaladin with? That would play to Vin's advantage.

[NameIess]

Just now, StanLemon said:

The issue it seems is what Brandon means by "battlefield." That doesn't necessarily mean a straight up fight. As @Gisaku75 posted with his WoB, a simple Atium Misting could beat Kaladin unless Kal could get the Misting to use up all his Atium. In a wide open area? Yeah Kaladin would probably have the advantage. But an area with lots of buildings for a Mistborn to Push/Pull and hide and sneak up on Kaladin with? That would play to Vin's advantage.

Yes, but Kaladin (or Windrunners in general) would have an advantage in combat, while Mistborn in general are more suited for assassination, so Mistborn probably couldn't win without a terrain advantage.

[StanLemon]

Just now, Llstml said:

Yes, but Kaladin (or Windrunners in general) would have an advantage in combat, while Mistborn in general are more suited for assassination, so Mistborn probably couldn't win without a terrain advantage.

There is no such thing as a neutral terrain. All terrain gives an advantage to one party or the other. 

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

There is no such thing as a neutral terrain. All terrain gives an advantage to one party or the other. 

Yes, but Windrunners are better suited to direct combat, especially after they get their plate. Windrunners are versatile, and can fight almost anywhere, while Mistborn require metal in the surroundings in order to fight at full capacity.

[StanLemon]

Just now, Llstml said:

Yes, but Windrunners are better suited to direct combat, especially after they get their plate. Windrunners are versatile, and can fight almost anywhere, while Mistborn require metal in the surroundings in order to fight at full capacity.

And I have said, under most circumstances I think a Radiant of the 5th Ideal would defeat a Mistborn with all the metals. This conversation though had progressed into a Vin vs Kaladin direction and based on their fights in the books, I am sure that Vin would have the higher chances of victory. I have already specified as to why. Vin is better at thinking outside the box, she has shown on page much greater combat accomplishments, she's frankly more experienced at beating people stronger than her than Kaladin is, and so on. Maybe once Stormlight gets further down its story and Kaladin gets more experience and swears more Ideals my opinion on that will change, but as it stands now Vin would likely win.

[Bigmikey357]

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

And I have said, under most circumstances I think a Radiant of the 5th Ideal would defeat a Mistborn with all the metals. This conversation though had progressed into a Vin vs Kaladin direction and based on their fights in the books, I am sure that Vin would have the higher chances of victory. I have already specified as to why. Vin is better at thinking outside the box, she has shown on page much greater combat accomplishments, she's frankly more experienced at beating people stronger than her than Kaladin is, and so on. Maybe once Stormlight gets further down its story and Kaladin gets more experience and swears more Ideals my opinion on that will change, but as it stands now Vin would likely win.

That's why I said Vin isn't the ideal baseline for Mistborn. She has accomplished things before ascending than anyone in history, plus she had 2 Shards siding her at times. Kaladin isn't atypical yet but has a fair chance to be as well, so although he's going to be the most visible Windrunner he probably shouldn't be considered baseline either.

[LadyLameness]

I would like to take a moment to strongly remind everyone that it is the responsibility of all individuals to be courteous and keep discussion friendly and civil. If someone asks you to stop doing a particular thing or that you tone it down then check yourself and consider why they are doing so. Be considerate, be friendly, and be empathetic about how your own messages are coming across because ultimately, every individual is responsible for what they write and how they engage.

The mods are here to overall facilitate discussion, not to dictate every instance of what engagement is considered okay. It is our expectation that all members are polite and respectful and abide by the spirit of the rules as much as the letter. While we do strongly encourage members to report posts rather than engage, this does not mean that posts that are not reported are mod approved. Someone does not have to be a moderator to ask for civility and friendliness. 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, LadyLameness said:

I would like to take a moment to strongly remind everyone that it is the responsibility of all individuals to be courteous and keep discussion friendly and civil. If someone asks you to stop doing a particular thing or that you tone it down then check yourself and consider why they are doing so. Be considerate, be friendly, and be empathetic about how your own messages are coming across because ultimately, every individual is responsible for what they write and how they engage.

The mods are here to overall facilitate discussion, not to dictate every instance of what engagement is considered okay. It is our expectation that all members are polite and respectful and abide by the spirit of the rules as much as the letter. While we do strongly encourage members to report posts rather than engage, this does not mean that posts that are not reported are mod approved. Someone does not have to be a moderator to ask for civility and friendliness. 

So here is the thing. This situation with Honorless is not isolated to this situation, nor is is isolated to me. Honorless has done this with other individuals. This is the fifth(?) time I believe regarding myself. Now it could be said, well that means its "me" and I am doing something wrong. But each time it has been over something different and unrelated to the subject. One of the reasons was because I bold for emphasis. Not capitalize mind you (which I believe is accepted widely on the internet as yelling). Bolding. So I explained why I bolded. That it was not intended as yelling or any other condescension. It was for calling attention to a point. A point that could be misconstrued or taken differently if that specific word or phrase was not read. I then stopped bolding, and highlighted instead. I changed my behavior, but did another behavior I hoped still accomplished the original intended goal but made Honorless happy. I do not say to whom so ever I speak to "You are dense. You lack reading comprehension to see what I wrote" (not saying I would say that, nor that I think that, nor that it is acceptable to say that, nor am I implying it makes other impolite ways of speaking polite by proxy. See? I am going to extra mile to clarify my statements to avoid offense). What I actually do is say "I think you misunderstood me. Let me take another tact. Or say it another way. Perhaps that will clarify". Again to me, I am going the extra mile to clarify my intentions. I did this in the bolding instance, as well (to me) in other instances. It has however reached a point for myself, that instead of wondering every time I post, if there will be an issue unrelated to what is being discussed that bothers Honorless, that Honorless would follow the site guild lines and if the systemic issue really does lie with me, then an impartial third party in the form of a moderator could step in, and the three of us discuss via PM what precisely is the issue for Honorless, and how we can go about resolving it. So for the fifth(?)(I put a question mark because I have not searched all my posts to locate specifically how many times this has occurred, so it is a rough estimate) time Honorless disregarded my statement, and told me to change what I said instead of replying to what I said, I thought I followed the forum's rules. I did not further engage. I did not attack. I did not troll. I requested Honorless follow forum guide lines by reporting my post, and involving a moderator to adjudicate. Rather than potentially derailing the topic via discussion over how my post came across. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Honorless]

Okay, @Pathfinder sorry to put this here when you're already offended by my requests, and I am sorry if they came across as demands, but could you tag someone when you're talking about them? Someone else had to point out to me that someone is complaining about me?

Path, I've only interacted with you four times before as far as I can recall: the Dalinar thread (where the text size really was egregiously big, bold and red, on a comment I had directed towards the OP and Calderis, both of whom responded and we all compromised. I didn't even realize that I came across as offensive there and I still fail to see how. I said this (the Dalinar thread) should've been reported but I didn't but you tagged Chaos anyway.

The second time was on the Elsecallers Teleportation thread where I pasted a previous response (that was on messages not posts) which was in agreement to you.

The third was some topic on Adonalsium's nature where you presented your cat's behavior for some reason? 

And the fourth is this.

But since you've already taken the liberty to point out my actions I do hope you won't find it unseemly that I would do the same. The Jasnah's religion thread, where many others have been complaining about your conduct. Though I'm afraid I haven't read that thread fully and most of it seemed rather excessive to me. Besides, I also considered the thread's question answered by Jasnah herself (as I quoted there in my response).

 

...I think I am going to take your advice from before and simply report you.

Also if you really dislike me that much, you can DM me if you would like me to unfollow you? Edit: done

 

Furthermore, I would like to request the mods to not remove these dialogues. People need to be reassured that these things are in fact talked about

@Tglassy, I'm so sorry for contributing to putting this thread in awkward limbo

Edited January 8, 2020 by Honorless
of -> if

[Chaos]

PMs will be going out to many parties today, and let's get back on topic please.

[Chiberty]

I don't want to continue the off-topic conversation (so probably don't reply to this post; not that it encourages much discussion anyway), but I thought that it would be fitting to mention in the context of this conversion that I found it amusing how the profile pictures of @Pathfinder and @Honorless are of opposing allomantic symbols: atium and lerasium.

[Honorless]

*sighs* I saw that one coming from a mile away

 

But please refrain from tagging me in this topic for a while, I hope you can understand why I would like some time before coming back to this. I will post my response to whether or not Dalinar's "Unification" had an effect in augmenting Jasnah's Soulcasting abilities, I haven't forgotten it, feel free to dissect it when I put it up. I'll edit to add that in later.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Dreamer

[Aon Tia]

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

I will to post my response to whether or not Dalinar's "Unification" had an effect in augmenting Jasnah's Soulcasting abilities, I haven't forgotten it, feel free to dissect it when I put it up. I'll edit to add that in later.

That would be a nice topic for a post!

[+robardin]

On 1/7/2020 at 7:50 AM, Llstml said:

Brandon has said two times that Kaladin would beat Vin in a straight up fight, once that Kaladin would beat Kelsier, one time that Windrunners in general will beat Mistborn in general in a direct fight, and zero times that a Mistborn would beat a Windrunner in a straight up fight. Brandon has considered this, and even if he hadn't, he is the author, and we have nothing in the books that contradicts this directly, meaning this is the canonical answer, and the only thing that can be argued about is what a "battelfield" is.

Well... When asked which of his Cosmere characters, not counting Shards/Slivers of Adonalsium (e.g. The Lord Ruler) "would win in a fight", implied to be one-on-one combat, he picked "Kelsier with atium":

Quote

Questioner

Which of your characters do you think would win in a fight?

Brandon Sanderson

At what stage in their career?

Questioner

Not the Slivers.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, so they don't count, the Shards of Adonalsium don't count… Does Kelsier have atium?

Questioner

Yes, atium exists.

Brandon Sanderson

A Mistborn burning atium is really hard to beat in any other way.

Questioner

So you think that Kelsier would beat Vin?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Kelsier would beat Vin if he had atium and she didn't. If they both did? Vin has more raw talent, Kelsier has a lot more experience. So if you can pick Vin after she's had more experience she will give him a fair fight, but before that she will not.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

The biggest challenge he could think of offhand for Kelsier with atium (excluding Shards and Slivers) was Vin with atium.

The only times he'd allowed that Kaladin would beat Vin or Kelsier was "on a battlefield" - which I would take to mean with his team of Bridge Four behind him and with coordinated attack patterns. (This also must mean Bridge Four as Windrunner squires, since for Kaladin to have a chance at all he needs to be able to summon Syl as a Shardblade, which means the version of Kaladin that has sworn the Third Ideal.)

After all, if you consider the biggest "battlefield showdown vs. a massively Inversted opponent" scene we've seen with Kaladin, that would be in Oathbringer against Yelig-Namaram... Where he needed help from a Stormlight-holding Rock using a Shardbow to defeat him. Which isn't "cheating". It's who and what he is. 

Windrunner powers are very combat-oriented (as seen with Szeth as the Assassin In White), but the way Windrunners operate when spren-selected remind me of Kipling's Law of the Jungle (from The Jungle Book) that Mowgli learns to recite: For the strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

Edited January 9, 2020 by robardin

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, robardin said:

Well... When asked which of his Cosmere characters, not counting Shards/Slivers of Adonalsium (e.g. The Lord Ruler) "would win in a fight", implied to be one-on-one combat, he picked "Kelsier with atium":

The biggest challenge he could think of offhand for Kelsier with atium (excluding Shards and Slivers) was Vin with atium.

The only times he'd allowed that Kaladin would beat Vin or Kelsier was "on a battlefield" - which I would take to mean with his team of Bridge Four behind him and with coordinated attack patterns. (This also must mean Bridge Four as Windrunner squires, since for Kaladin to have a chance at all he needs to be able to summon Syl as a Shardblade, which means the version of Kaladin that has sworn the Third Ideal.)

After all, if you consider the biggest "battlefield showdown vs. a massively Inversted opponent" scene we've seen with Kaladin, that would be in Oathbringer against Yelig-Namaram... Where he needed help from a Stormlight-holding Rock using a Shardbow to defeat him. Which isn't "cheating". It's who and what he is.

I will need some time to pull it up, but there was also another WoB, that said Kaladin could just wait out the atium. 

 

Questioner

Who do you think would win, an atium misting, or Kaladin with Syl?

Brandon Sanderson

The atium misting, as long as they have enough atium, is probably got an advantage, but Kaladin can fly. So, I would bet on Kaladin, meaning he flies up high, waits 'til they run out of atium, then gets them.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) Edited January 9, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Aon Tia]

28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I will need some time to pull it up, but there was also another WoB, that said Kaladin could just wait out the atium. 

 

Questioner

Who do you think would win, an atium misting, or Kaladin with Syl?

Brandon Sanderson

The atium misting, as long as they have enough atium, is probably got an advantage, but Kaladin can fly. So, I would bet on Kaladin, meaning he flies up high, waits 'til they run out of atium, then gets them.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

I don’t think this wob really applies to Kelsier because he is a Mistborn and not just an atium misting. If kaladin choses to wait it out by flying then he will learn that sky is not his domain alone!

[Pathfinder]

2 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I don’t think this wob really applies to Kelsier because he is a Mistborn and not just an atium misting. If kaladin choses to wait it out by flying then he will learn that sky is not his domain alone!

True, but for myself that then branches to the discussion to all the other abilities a Radiant has and all the other abilities a Mistborn had. My intention was to comment on the idea that someone with atium would be the apex "predator" if you will (not attempting to put words in robardin's mouth. That was just the best descriptor I thought I could provide at the time). I was referencing a WoB where Brandon felt there was a counter to that. Also am not attempting to negate the capabilities of atium. 

[Aon Tia]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

True, but for myself that then branches to the discussion to all the other abilities a Radiant has and all the other abilities a Mistborn had. My intention was to comment on the idea that someone with atium would be the apex "predator" if you will (not attempting to put words in robardin's mouth. That was just the best descriptor I thought I could provide at the time). I was referencing a WoB where Brandon felt there was a counter to that. Also am not attempting to negate the capabilities of atium. 

Hmm but atium is limited, it burns quickly and is expensive to have a lot of!

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Hmm but atium is limited, it burns quickly and is expensive to have a lot of!

Yep. I am in complete agreement on all those traits. 

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

True, but for myself that then branches to the discussion to all the other abilities a Radiant has and all the other abilities a Mistborn had. My intention was to comment on the idea that someone with atium would be the apex "predator" if you will (not attempting to put words in robardin's mouth. That was just the best descriptor I thought I could provide at the time). I was referencing a WoB where Brandon felt there was a counter to that. Also am not attempting to negate the capabilities of atium. 

Yes, but an Allomancer would stop burning atium until Kaladin was in range and a threat or legitimate target. And there is a big difference between an atium Misting like Yomen, and a Mistborn with a mean streak like Kelsier.

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

I don’t think this wob really applies to Kelsier because he is a Mistborn and not just an atium misting. If kaladin choses to wait it out by flying then he will learn that sky is not his domain alone!

About the skies being Kaladin's vs. Kelsier's domain: I suspect Kaladin can get much higher up than Kelsier, as increasing one's altitude in the sky using A-steel involves constant Pushing on a more and more distant anchor (which gets harder and harder to Push against), while with a Full Lashing you just fall upwards, faster and faster (with natural acceleration as from gravity), until the Lashing is released/altered or the Stormlight runs out. Which would give Kaladin the fabled Advantage of High Ground (well, High Altitude)!

How long these Lashings last, though, versus how much Stormlight Kaladin would typically have on him, is another question. Without special preparation, like his flight across Roshar to Hearthstone when he'd requisitioned most of the Emerald Reserve (and which was still insufficient), I suppose a few large spheres' worth would be normal? Here, I suspect the amount of metal a Mistborn would carry around on a typical day (multiple vials, especially of the basic metals which are cheap and easy to get) would prove an advantage in total Investiture.

[Pathfinder]

25 minutes ago, robardin said:

Yes, but an Allomancer would stop burning atium until Kaladin was in range and a threat or legitimate target. And there is a big difference between an atium Misting like Yomen, and a Mistborn with a mean streak like Kelsier.

So I was going to reply to this being what my reply to traveler was to mean, but then you stated it (in my opinion) below

Quote

About the skies being Kaladin's vs. Kelsier's domain: I suspect Kaladin can get much higher up than Kelsier, as increasing one's altitude in the sky using A-steel involves constant Pushing on a more and more distant anchor (which gets harder and harder to Push against), while with a Full Lashing you just fall upwards, faster and faster (with natural acceleration as from gravity), until the Lashing is released/altered or the Stormlight runs out. Which would give Kaladin the fabled Advantage of High Ground (well, High Altitude)!

How long these Lashings last, though, versus how much Stormlight Kaladin would typically have on him, is another question. Without special preparation, like his flight across Roshar to Hearthstone when he'd requisitioned most of the Emerald Reserve (and which was still insufficient), I suppose a few large spheres' worth would be normal? Here, I suspect the amount of metal a Mistborn would carry around on a typical day (multiple vials, especially of the basic metals which are cheap and easy to get) would prove an advantage in total Investiture.

So this is what I meant by :

 

"True, but for myself that then branches to the discussion to all the other abilities a Radiant has and all the other abilities a Mistborn had. My intention was to comment on the idea that someone with atium would be the apex "predator" if you will (not attempting to put words in robardin's mouth. That was just the best descriptor I thought I could provide at the time). I was referencing a WoB where Brandon felt there was a counter to that. Also am not attempting to negate the capabilities of atium. "

 

That then since Kelsier is a mistborn with other powers, we then examine those other powers. And since Kaladin has more abilities/powers than just flying, we then also examine those powers in relation to the ability that atium shows. That atium itself is not the cause of the mistborn being apex. It could be a contributing factor, and it is a strong one (I did say I am not attempting to negate the capabilities of atium), but for myself, when in view of the other factors, there are other mitigating issues to be considered. Which is what you then said. (this statement is not to be taken as critical of how you wrote your post, nor stating my post stated it any better, or that you should not have posted. the only intention meant is that I believe I said the same thing, but a different way)

Edited January 9, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Elanmorin]

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

I don’t think this wob really applies to Kelsier because he is a Mistborn and not just an atium misting. If kaladin choses to wait it out by flying then he will learn that sky is not his domain alone!

Nah, the sky is Kaladin's. 
 

Kelsier is just a kangaroo on steroids by comparison.