Mistborn vs Else

[Agent34]

I just occurred to me that Shardblades have only been treated as the default giant sword form in these scenarios. What's to stop a Radiant under fire from summoning a large shield? Or any other object to aid them, the shapeshifting aspect of Shardblades provides a great deal of control over reach and distance.

[+Oltux72]

5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Tin augments all physical senses equally. But the surge of Illumination can cover both sight and sound.

Well, yes, but sight and sound are merely man's main senses not the only ones. A Lightweaver could not convincingly simulate many flowers or, let's be blunt, a turd. Usually that does not matter. It would matter if the people to be decieved had a dog or, albeit not as good, a sense of smell enhanced by allomantic tin.

5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Moments matter in battle; if I can distract you with a sound or maybe an image flickering out the corner of your eye, or make you flinch with an intense light or sound I can gain a fatal advantage.

If the Lightweaver knows that the Mistborn is around before the attack begins, the Mistborn has already made a serious mistake. Radiants are better infantry. There is no question about that. Hence the key is not being drawn into an infantry battle. Can the Mistborn do that? He has the advantage in sensors and (mostly) mobility. He is also, at least briefly, much stronger. That points to ambushes and hit-and-run attacks. Can he pull that off? It very much depends on the environment and an unknown factor, namely, whether a copper cloud can mask your soul in the CR.
On a wide open field I would bet on the Radiant. In a jungle, the Mistborn.

5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

For mobility and range of Spren, see Kaladin and Syl in the war camps.

Honorspren. Ivory and Wyndle seem to be basically be limited to walking. Glys and Pattern are in between.

5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

A-Bronze could sense them maybe,  but the guy has to be at least proficient at it as Marsh was, and likely much better since they'd be sensing something in a foriegn magic system.

Well, Roshar is supposed to be much richer in Investiture. Surges, dafe for Lightweaving, and Stormlight should actually be louder. Spren are made from Investiture.

[Tglassy]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

If the Lightweaver knows that the Mistborn is around before the attack begins, the Mistborn has already made a serious mistake. Radiants are better infantry. There is no question about that. Hence the key is not being drawn into an infantry battle. Can the Mistborn do that? He has the advantage in sensors and (mostly) mobility. He is also, at least briefly, much stronger. That points to ambushes and hit-and-run attacks. Can he pull that off? It very much depends on the environment and an unknown factor, namely, whether a copper cloud can mask your soul in the CR.
On a wide open field I would bet on the Radiant. In a jungle, the Mistborn.

Am I the only one who remembers Mistborn being the driving force in many large, open battles against giants with the strength to rip people in two with their bare hands?  Elend and Vin are two exceptional Mistborn, true (Elend being stronger than normal and Vin being more skilled), but still, a front line of Mistborn, each with a full stock of metals, would be scary as hell.  Especially if they AREN'T fighting other Mistborn, as then they could outfit themselves with full armor and weapons.  

 

I'm going to say that Mistborn and Radiants are evenly matched in the long run.  The winner would be whoever made the fewest mistakes.  Probably the same regarding Feruchemists.  Some Twinborn could even rank up there, depending on the type.  

[+Oltux72]

11 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Am I the only one who remembers Mistborn being the driving force in many large, open battles against giants with the strength to rip people in two with their bare hands?  Elend and Vin are two exceptional Mistborn, true (Elend being stronger than normal and Vin being more skilled), but still, a front line of Mistborn, each with a full stock of metals, would be scary as hell.  Especially if they AREN'T fighting other Mistborn, as then they could outfit themselves with full armor and weapons.

You aren't the only one. Yet we also remember Dalinar and Adolin mowing down people like grass. The only serious contenders would be Radiants and Elantrians.
And it does not change specialisations. Mistborn are primarily assassins, not infantrists.

11 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

I'm going to say that Mistborn and Radiants are evenly matched in the long run.  The winner would be whoever made the fewest mistakes.  Probably the same regarding Feruchemists.  Some Twinborn could even rank up there, depending on the type.  

Not really. Radiants are designed to support an army. They are supplied with magical weapons, have a strong defensive component and a lot of capabilities for logistics, support, reconaissance  and field engineering. Mistborn see alot, sneak well and hit hard. But they are no use in setting up a field base with a hospital.

In groups the Radiants win. One on one, it really depends on terrain.

[Pathfinder]

On 12/29/2019 at 11:55 AM, StanLemon said:

I have a question. Why does everyone think an Elsecaller would simply be able to Soulcast a Mistborn? In Oathbringer Jasnah considers to herself that it is difficult to Soulcast a normal person, so it would be even more difficult to impossible to Soulcast a Mistborn burning metals

Because there is a WoB for that. Shown below:

 

Blightsong

Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Investiture resists Investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

Questioner

Is a Mistborn Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

The Mistborn, how they're burning the metal, you're right. They are not specifically Invested when they are not burning. When the Investiture becomes active, the yes. Before, no, you're right on that.

Blightsong

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was Invested, but because he had the potential to use Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Over time using the magic will Invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as Invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the Spiritweb. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the Spiritual Realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

Questioner

Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yeah. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

On 12/29/2019 at 0:00 PM, Honorless said:

The OB Battle at Thaylenah gives that impression.

I think that had more to do with Dalinar's... Unification and Jasnah's own skill.

There is a debate on this, so being fully upfront, but in Oathbringer, from Renarin's perspective, Jasnah soulcasts three people in succession (soulcasts the first person, pushing them back, that person hits the second person, that soulcasts that person throwing them back, then another person), then she soulcasts a wall to smoke, and then while running soulcasts air to steps that she then shortly after runs up. Then after all that, and only after all that, does Renarin feel the surge of stormlight. So I maintain that Jasnah was capable of all of that prior to Dalinar bringing the realms together. 

On 12/29/2019 at 0:01 PM, Tglassy said:

Saying "A Mistborn without metals" is equivalent to saying "A Radiant without Gems."  You can't use that as factor against Mistborn, because the Radiant has the same limitation.

The example I gave would be the elsecaller soulcasting the metals in the vials to smoke. Thereby the mistborn would only have the metals they swallowed left. Once those are burnt off (potentially very quickly considering the ideas to employ duralumin), the mistborn would have no more metals to burn. Then they are a normal person that can be soulcasted as per the WoB I included earlier in this post. 

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Of course, all this assumes no Atiium, and we don't even KNOW what all the Atium alloys and other God Metals and their alloys do.  Mistborn have so many more than just the 18 metals they've shown.  An Atium MISTING could take out a Knight Radiant before they get their blade.  Even after they get their blade, they could wind up winning.

WoB for atium misting vs knight radiant below:

 

Questioner

Who do you think would win, an atium misting, or Kaladin with Syl?

Brandon Sanderson

The atium misting, as long as they have enough atium, is probably got an advantage, but Kaladin can fly. So, I would bet on Kaladin, meaning he flies up high, waits 'til they run out of atium, then gets them.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

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And I'm still thinking a Duralumin Pewter burn could tear a Knight's head off pretty easy, Plate or no.  Then you just keep stabbing until the stormlight stops trying to regrow it.  

That still relies on getting close, but lets say I give that to you. A truthwatcher would heal that back immediately like it was nothing. 

On 12/29/2019 at 0:02 PM, StanLemon said:

That's the scene I was referring to. In that scene Jasnah thinks to herself how it's usually very difficult to Soulcast people but she's so powered up by the Perpendicularity that she's able to do it with ease

Soulcasters are used to getting through things natural investiture. Then there is the whole fact that Jasnah soulcasted three thugs, one at short range, two at range. WoB that I showed earlier shows Elsecallers as the order are better at ranged soulcasting. 

 

Questioner

Can you Soulcast an Invested object?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it's much harder. But humans are Invested, and you can soulcast humans.

Questioner

So, suppose you had a goldmind that was filled. And you tried to Soulcast into iron. What would happen to the Investiture inside it?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the Investiture would remain in there, but it's keyed to the wrong thing, so you wouldn't be able to get it. It'd be much harder to Soulcast that, by the way. The more Invested, the harder it is. But Soulcasters are used to it, because everything has Investiture, and most of what they're Soulcasting. They deal with this, so it's something they're kind of expert at. So, this is not outside reason, that it could happen. You could give it to your average Soulcaster on Roshar, and they could make it happen. You just wouldn't be able to get the Investiture out of it anymore.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

On 12/29/2019 at 0:05 PM, Honorless said:

I would say it's worse since metals are their access points to Investiture not just carriers of Investiture. It's more like saying a Surgebinder without access to Stormlight, or worse without spren.

Yes, it's a finite resource but metals are easier to find and carry than Stormlight or spren (specifically off-world). Sheer battle strength isn't everything, resources are just as, if not more important logistically.

So now the mistborn is scrambling with a file to find allomantically burnable metals to file and ingest? Remember they require certain percentages in order not to be poisoned. 

On 12/29/2019 at 0:23 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

Not to mention what shardplate does.

A smart lightwaever would put an illusion over themselves as well making all of their creations show up as using investiture.

I agree. 

On 12/29/2019 at 0:40 PM, Tglassy said:

Ok, lets look at a few different scenarios. 

 

First, lets give them an infinite amount of their form of Investiture.  We'll just give them each a Shard behind them, fueling their power, the way Vin did with Elend and the way Honor Blades do.  If we go that route, then I'd say Mistborn still wins.  Yes, the Radiant has infinite Stormlight, and therefore likely cannot die.  I say likely, because I'm not sure how that would work if you just kept them decapitated.  The main reason I say that is Infinite Duralumin, Pewter, Steel and Atium.  This is near infinite strength, speed, dexterity, and can simply push the Radiant against the wall or ground and hold him there if he has something behind him to push on as well, and the ability to see the future, unless the Radiant drops his armor, which then reduces his strength and allows the Mistborn to rip his head off.  Chromium may not work in this case, as we're giving them infinite Stormlight, but I'm having trouble seeing how the Radiant could fight this off.  Plate only gives so much strength.  The surges would be the tipping points, especially Elsecallers, being able to shift to the Cognitive Realm, and then Soulcast whatever they need to from there, but the others?  I'm sure some would do fairly well, but the is at least an even match, depending on the Order being fought.

I do not think it is a good idea to bring up the infinite investiture, backed by shard situation. It has caused a whole lot of arguments and disagreements. So I think it is just better to avoid it. Or at least I will. Continue to do so if you so choose. 

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Now lets give them no investiture.  No metals and no stormlight.  This one's easy.  Radiant wins, because they still have their blades and without Metals, a Mistborn is just a man. I'm assuming Living Plate still needs Stormlight to work.  

I agree. 

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But with an equal, yet limited, amount of each of their Investiture, I believe that Chromium tips the balance towards Mistborn, as they'll be able to drain that investiture faster than their own investiture drains.  Yes, they need touch, but every love tap drains a little more.  Then they just need to survive until the Radiant's Stormlight wears out.

Ehhh, theoretically yes, but I think that still discounts what the surges can do preventing that mistborn from touching them. That coupled with the WoB I mentioned regarding how chromium works results in me thinking the mistborn may run out of chromium before the radiant shardplate is drained away. 

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Oddly enough, I think a Feruchemist Warrior would fair better against a Knight Radiant.  They could have their own version of Plate Armor made up of different metals that double as Metalminds, and since they're metal minds, the Shardblades wouldn't be able to cut through them as easily.  That negates the advantage of the Blade.  They'd also have healing, strength, speed and all the rest.  Mistborn have Bendalloy to counter, albeit briefly, a Feruchemist's speed, but a Radiant doesn't.  Tapping speed and strength, wearing Feruchemical Armor, and the only way the Knight wins is if he can stay away and use ranged attacks.  Heck, Feruchemical Armor basically mimics Shardplate.  

Yeah there are a whole bunch of other threads talking about a full feruchemist or using a fullborn. I would personally rather stay away from that. But a little tidbit as an aside. Yes a full metal mind would not get cut via phasing like everything else, but that still does not change a large sword is being swung at (in some cases) brittle metal. The metal can still break or be punctured. 

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Here's a new battle for you: A Fullborn vs a Herald.  That would be an interesting match.

Yeah not going to touch that with a 1000 foot pole. Its been discussed to death, with no one coming out of that happy. 

18 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And those he has deposited. If he is carrying everything on his person, he will have earned his death. And if

1. The Radiant manages to locate the Mistborn

Doesn't have to locate the mistborn in the physical, just locate the beads of the metals in the cognitive. When you offer stormlight, the beads come to you. 

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1. 2. The Mistborn doesn't use vials made from aluminium

If that is on the table, then transformation being able to soulcast aluminum should be on the table. 

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The Mistborn would retreat. A Radiant in the CR has to walk. That scenario would end in a draw.

We have seen Jasnah and Shallan use stormlight to summon a "raft" of beads and use it to travel. And of course this also goes back to me believing Elsecallers can teleport, not just transfer back and forth between the cognitive and physical. 

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That raises a question. How much does tin enhance your sense of smell? Can a Lightweaver fake that?

So the mistborn is going to smell the rock before throwing a coin at it, to push off to dodge to the left?

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How mobile are spren and can you sense them with bronze?

Spren can go through keyholes and under doors. honorspren can fly direct, while some spren travel across the ground. As to detection via bronze, I do not think we know. 

11 hours ago, Agent34 said:

I just occurred to me that Shardblades have only been treated as the default giant sword form in these scenarios. What's to stop a Radiant under fire from summoning a large shield? Or any other object to aid them, the shapeshifting aspect of Shardblades provides a great deal of control over reach and distance.

Nothing stops them from doing so. The weapon shifts immediately to whatever the radiant imagines at the speed of thought. So I agree this is a very important distinction. 

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, yes, but sight and sound are merely man's main senses not the only ones. A Lightweaver could not convincingly simulate many flowers or, let's be blunt, a turd. Usually that does not matter. It would matter if the people to be decieved had a dog or, albeit not as good, a sense of smell enhanced by allomantic tin.

If the Lightweaver knows that the Mistborn is around before the attack begins, the Mistborn has already made a serious mistake. Radiants are better infantry. There is no question about that. Hence the key is not being drawn into an infantry battle. Can the Mistborn do that? He has the advantage in sensors and (mostly) mobility. He is also, at least briefly, much stronger. That points to ambushes and hit-and-run attacks. Can he pull that off? It very much depends on the environment and an unknown factor, namely, whether a copper cloud can mask your soul in the CR.
On a wide open field I would bet on the Radiant. In a jungle, the Mistborn.

Honorspren. Ivory and Wyndle seem to be basically be limited to walking. Glys and Pattern are in between.

Well, Roshar is supposed to be much richer in Investiture. Surges, dafe for Lightweaving, and Stormlight should actually be louder. Spren are made from Investiture.

If the mistborn is being provided with time to prepare for the battle and hide, why not the radiant? Why cannot the lightweaver alter the battlefield with soulcasting and illusion? Why can't the elsecaller hang out in the cognitive waiting for him to show? I think it is not very balanced affording the mistborn all this prep time and not allow the same for the radiant. 

3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Am I the only one who remembers Mistborn being the driving force in many large, open battles against giants with the strength to rip people in two with their bare hands?  Elend and Vin are two exceptional Mistborn, true (Elend being stronger than normal and Vin being more skilled), but still, a front line of Mistborn, each with a full stock of metals, would be scary as hell.  Especially if they AREN'T fighting other Mistborn, as then they could outfit themselves with full armor and weapons.  

And radiants fight giant monsters that can destroy walls with their foot. They fight monsters that can be unendingly produced (midnight essences). 

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I'm going to say that Mistborn and Radiants are evenly matched in the long run.  The winner would be whoever made the fewest mistakes.  Probably the same regarding Feruchemists.  Some Twinborn could even rank up there, depending on the type.  

I disagree, but to each their own. 

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

You aren't the only one. Yet we also remember Dalinar and Adolin mowing down people like grass. The only serious contenders would be Radiants and Elantrians.
And it does not change specialisations. Mistborn are primarily assassins, not infantrists.

Not really. Radiants are designed to support an army. They are supplied with magical weapons, have a strong defensive component and a lot of capabilities for logistics, support, reconaissance  and field engineering. Mistborn see alot, sneak well and hit hard. But they are no use in setting up a field base with a hospital.

I agree with most of your post. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Pathfinder

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Doesn't have to locate the mistborn in the physical, just locate the beads of the metals in the cognitive. When you offer stormlight, the beads come to you. 

That (as far as the order can do that) comes down to an unknown: can you hide yourself with copper?

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

If that is on the table, then transformation being able to soulcast aluminum should be on the table. 

Why? Isn't that the next logical innovation that will happen on Scadrial? Glass is fragile and metal a vulnerability.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

We have seen Jasnah and Shallan use stormlight to summon a "raft" of beads and use it to travel. And of course this also goes back to me believing Elsecallers can teleport, not just transfer back and forth between the cognitive and physical.

But can they teleport in the CR? And that raft method really wasn't fast.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So the mistborn is going to smell the rock before throwing a coin at it, to push off to dodge to the left?

No, but smell the moving targets and use it to defeat the hiding under illusionary rock trick.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Spren can go through keyholes and under doors. honorspren can fly direct, while some spren travel across the ground.

Yet how fast? Is that tactically useful? It depends on how far you can see with tin or detect a Radiant with bronze. Terrain again.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

As to detection via bronze, I do not think we know.

Hoid sensed something.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

If the mistborn is being provided with time to prepare for the battle and hide, why not the radiant?

The Mistborn can retreat at first. Metalls don't leak. Stormlight does.

 

[Pathfinder]

30 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That (as far as the order can do that) comes down to an unknown: can you hide yourself with copper?

Not trying for the mistborn. trying for the bead associated with the metal in the vial. Copper hides the pulse you make when you burn metals. So if the elsecaller was trying to locate the mistborn based on his or her power usage then yes. But that is not what I proposed. I stated the beads associated with the metals. 

30 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why? Isn't that the next logical innovation that will happen on Scadrial? Glass is fragile and metal a vulnerability.

So then the radiants get fabrials of other surges? We see it in the visions, and Navani planning on making ships with it. Its the next logical innovation. 

30 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But can they teleport in the CR? And that raft method really wasn't fast.

If teleportation involves the spiritual realm as Brandon states he will potentially do, then yes I do not think it matters if you start in the physical or cognitive, you are punching a hole through to the spiritual, and traveling via that, and then returning. 

The raft we see with Jasnah moves pretty easily to me. Shallan who is not good at soulcasting has to rebuild it each time. 

30 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No, but smell the moving targets and use it to defeat the hiding under illusionary rock trick.

That was someone else's idea. My idea was leave some of the terrain real, some of it illusory, and some of it illusions with physicality. So the mistborn would never know if what they stand on is actual ground, an illusion they will fall through, or standing on an illusion that can be dismissed or altered at anytime. 

30 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yet how fast? Is that tactically useful? It depends on how far you can see with tin or detect a Radiant with bronze. Terrain again.

syl can fly so terrain would not affect her. Pattern and spren like him are not impeded by the terrain they traverse. They do not get tired traveling up hill for instance. They go up walls and across ceilings with equal ease. 

30 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Hoid sensed something.

Hoid has life sense from breaths as well as white sand. Only one of those times was Shallan concealing herself. 

30 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The Mistborn can retreat at first. Metalls don't leak. Stormlight does.

The higher in oaths the radiant is, the less leaky they are, and with shardplate, the radiant in the vision did not seem to leak at all. That still does not explain why the mistborn gets time to prepare but not the radiant. 

[Tglassy]

Someone mentioned Mistborn being assassins and Radiants working better in groups.  I would have to disagree, pretty hard on that.  Anyone fighting a Mistborn with Metal is at a disadvantage, but the Mistborn's men won't have that problem.  Sure, a Radiant can mow through enemy lines.  But if the enemy has metal anything, the Mistborn DEMOLISHES them.  They don't just kill in a straight line, they kill ALL of them with their own metal.  The enemy would have to NOT be using any metal, in which case their men are using less efficient technology, and even so, the Mistborn can kill most of them with a coin.  

 

Granted, Radiants can cause likely an equal amount of damage, and can't really be killed, so they could likely take on an army as well, but I just don't understand why people think a Mistborn isn't as good in an army.  And, of course, this is all assuming they don't have Atium.  An Atium MISTING can take on an army by themselves.  We've seen that.  A battalion of 250 Atium Mistings took on over 100,000 Kolos and didn't die until they ran out of Atium.  A Mistborn with enough Atium would win, hands down, any contest you can throw at it, unless you throw Vin at them.  Then they could die.  

 

I'm still gonna say they're evenly matched, and the one who wins is the one who makes the fewest mistakes. 

[Agent34]

23 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Someone mentioned Mistborn being assassins and Radiants working better in groups.  I would have to disagree, pretty hard on that.  Anyone fighting a Mistborn with Metal is at a disadvantage, but the Mistborn's men won't have that problem.  Sure, a Radiant can mow through enemy lines.  But if the enemy has metal anything, the Mistborn DEMOLISHES them.  They don't just kill in a straight line, they kill ALL of them with their own metal.  The enemy would have to NOT be using any metal, in which case their men are using less efficient technology, and even so, the Mistborn can kill most of them with a coin.  

 

Granted, Radiants can cause likely an equal amount of damage, and can't really be killed, so they could likely take on an army as well, but I just don't understand why people think a Mistborn isn't as good in an army.  And, of course, this is all assuming they don't have Atium.  An Atium MISTING can take on an army by themselves.  We've seen that.  A battalion of 250 Atium Mistings took on over 100,000 Kolos and didn't die until they ran out of Atium.  A Mistborn with enough Atium would win, hands down, any contest you can throw at it, unless you throw Vin at them.  Then they could die.  

 

I'm still gonna say they're evenly matched, and the one who wins is the one who makes the fewest mistakes. 

Atium only helps you kill if you have a weapon, atium alone simply allows you to survive.

As for assassins vs soldiers it likely has something to do with this:

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Questioner

We've been wondering who would win in a fight, a Mistborn or...a Windrunner.

Brandon Sanderson

It really depends on the situation. I would say the Windrunner will win on a battlefield and the Mistborn will win at sneaking around and slitting people's throats. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

There are other WoBs like this such as Vin vs Kaladin or Kelsier vs Kaladin and while Brandon's said it ultimately depends on the situation and Radiant Order (when asked about mistborn v Radiant) it often comes down to "Kaladin has more power on the battlefield, Vin/Kelsier would win if they kill him in his sleep"

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Not trying for the mistborn. trying for the bead associated with the metal in the vial.

While that is possible, the Mistborn will have multiple vials and a bead is not exactly easy to find.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So then the radiants get fabrials of other surges?

Surges probably not, but I am confident Navani is working on weaponizing fabrials. A painrial is likely. A halfshard shield. Some communication device. A greatbow. A warnrial.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

If teleportation involves the spiritual realm as Brandon states he will potentially do, then yes I do not think it matters if you start in the physical or cognitive, you are punching a hole through to the spiritual, and traveling via that, and then returning.

Then why do all the oath gates have a section in the CR?

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

The raft we see with Jasnah moves pretty easily to me. Shallan who is not good at soulcasting has to rebuild it each time.

Not at the speed a Mistborn flies or can run.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

That was someone else's idea. My idea was leave some of the terrain real, some of it illusory, and some of it illusions with physicality. So the mistborn would never know if what they stand on is actual ground, an illusion they will fall through, or standing on an illusion that can be dismissed or altered at anytime.

You can do that. Yet you tell your opponent where you are in a coarse sense. Again it depends on terrain? Is there metal?
This leads us to an unspecified part of the scenario. Why do they fight? Personal hatred? Who has the choice of the battle field?

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

syl can fly so terrain would not affect her. Pattern and spren like him are not impeded by the terrain they traverse. They do not get tired traveling up hill for instance. They go up walls and across ceilings with equal ease.

Still much slower than a Mistborn.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

The higher in oaths the radiant is, the less leaky they are, and with shardplate, the radiant in the vision did not seem to leak at all. That still does not explain why the mistborn gets time to prepare but not the radiant. 

His gems still leak. As a Mistborn is faster (unless we are talking about the teleporting orders)  he has fist access to the areas the Radiant will move in

[Pathfinder]

21 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Someone mentioned Mistborn being assassins and Radiants working better in groups.  I would have to disagree, pretty hard on that.  Anyone fighting a Mistborn with Metal is at a disadvantage, but the Mistborn's men won't have that problem.  Sure, a Radiant can mow through enemy lines.  But if the enemy has metal anything, the Mistborn DEMOLISHES them.  They don't just kill in a straight line, they kill ALL of them with their own metal.  The enemy would have to NOT be using any metal, in which case their men are using less efficient technology, and even so, the Mistborn can kill most of them with a coin.  

Anything the mistborn would do to someone with wearing metal is still limited by the mistborn's weight, and amount of burnable metals. Hazekillers can take out mistborn. But I do not think that matters concerning a radiant as it takes a duralumin push to affect "mundane" or "dead" shardplate and blade. Radiant shardplate and blade can be summoned and dismissed instantly. So using a duralumin push or pull which will exhaust whatever metals you are burning at the time, just when a radiant can dismiss it ending the push or pull, and then summon it right back I think would be counter productive. 

21 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Granted, Radiants can cause likely an equal amount of damage, and can't really be killed, so they could likely take on an army as well, but I just don't understand why people think a Mistborn isn't as good in an army.  And, of course, this is all assuming they don't have Atium.  An Atium MISTING can take on an army by themselves.  We've seen that.  A battalion of 250 Atium Mistings took on over 100,000 Kolos and didn't die until they ran out of Atium.  A Mistborn with enough Atium would win, hands down, any contest you can throw at it, unless you throw Vin at them.  Then they could die.  

Anyone with abilities can be effective in an army or fighting an enemy army for the simple fact you have an ability that the enemy does not. The point made via WoB is that mistborn are more suited, and typically trained to assassinate rather than fight one to one. That radiants powers and abilities are more built towards fighting open in warfare. 

21 hours ago, Tglassy said:

I'm still gonna say they're evenly matched, and the one who wins is the one who makes the fewest mistakes. 

I respect your opinion, but based on their abilities and capabilities, I disagree. 

20 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

While that is possible, the Mistborn will have multiple vials and a bead is not exactly easy to find.

I already responded to this. Please refer to my earlier posts. When a radiant brings forth stormlight, the beads flow towards them. The beads want the stormlight willingly. 

20 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Surges probably not, but I am confident Navani is working on weaponizing fabrials. A painrial is likely. A halfshard shield. Some communication device. A greatbow. A warnrial.

This still in my mind goes under the whole "what if" issue I have with these posts. a meteor could drop killing the radiant. Does that mean the mistborn wins? I do not see the purpose of such conjecture when I feel we are discussing the abilities of the combatants. But to each their own. 

20 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Then why do all the oath gates have a section in the CR?

What does that have to do with travel to the spiritual? Just about everything has a physical presence, a cognitive presence, and a spiritual presence. Some beings lack one of the three, but I do not see why the oathgate would. It has a presence in the physical, the cognitive, and the spiritual. 

20 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Not at the speed a Mistborn flies or can run.

As you have said before, we know this how?

20 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

You can do that. Yet you tell your opponent where you are in a coarse sense. Again it depends on terrain? Is there metal?
This leads us to an unspecified part of the scenario. Why do they fight? Personal hatred? Who has the choice of the battle field?

Why is red red? Why is the sky blue? What does personal hatred have to do with judging the abilities of the combatants? 

20 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Still much slower than a Mistborn.

Again as you have said before, we know this how?

20 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

His gems still leak. As a Mistborn is faster (unless we are talking about the teleporting orders)  he has fist access to the areas the Radiant will move in

Why? Where was he traveling from? What did he have to travel over to get there? That is why I am at a loss as to why any of that is relevant. I could say the radiant started to travel first. I could say the mistborn was starting from an island and had to wait for the boat to sail and then dock. I could say Unicorns flew by and killed both mistborn and radiant with rainbow lasers shooting out of their buts. I do not see the relevance these questions have to ascertaining the combatant capabilities of mistborn versus other magic systems. 

[+Oltux72]

16 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Anything the mistborn would do to someone with wearing metal is still limited by the mistborn's weight, and amount of burnable metals. Hazekillers can take out mistborn.

In fairness, I guess we have to say that they are usually not alone. The idea that a Radiat mcan win comes from the notion that a Shard Blade will largely resist Allomancy. If that turns out to be wrong, the Mistborn will win.

16 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Anyone with abilities can be effective in an army or fighting an enemy army for the simple fact you have an ability that the enemy does not. The point made via WoB is that mistborn are more suited, and typically trained to assassinate rather than fight one to one. That radiants powers and abilities are more built towards fighting open in warfare.

Right. In fact Mistborn are optimized to fight Allomancers.

16 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I already responded to this. Please refer to my earlier posts. When a radiant brings forth stormlight, the beads flow towards them. The beads want the stormlight willingly.

Yes, but they need specific beads. There is no doubt a Soulcaster has the ability to destroy metal reserves. The difficulty is in targeting.

And the obvious assumption is that they are on Roshar.

16 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

What does that have to do with travel to the spiritual? Just about everything has a physical presence, a cognitive presence, and a spiritual presence. Some beings lack one of the three, but I do not see why the oathgate would. It has a presence in the physical, the cognitive, and the spiritual.

I does not just have a presence. It has a mode for operation there, which has been blocked. And it stands in teh middle of nowhere. And a malfunctioning transport strands you there and Elsecallers find it easier to transition than to outright teleport. It indicates to me that Elsecallers use the CR to teleport. Hence teleporting inside the CR will not work.

16 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

As you have said before, we know this how?

Look at how fast Wyndle was when he was in a hurry. Not faster than Lift.

16 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Why is red red? Why is the sky blue? What does personal hatred have to do with judging the abilities of the combatants?

It is a possible motivation for that combat. In other words it makes an extreme difference to know whether the intent to fight is one-sided or mutual.

16 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Again as you have said before, we know this how?

We are told that Stormlight gives you extreme endurance but not much more power. So a Radiant can keep running at human top speed. Kelsier and Vin did a pewter dash that would have killed a horse.

16 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Why? Where was he traveling from? What did he have to travel over to get there? That is why I am at a loss as to why any of that is relevant.

Sorry for being unclear. The party which is faster can abandon a failing attack and retreat to retry. If he is much faster he can get around the other party and prepare the terrain. MIstborn can fly. Most Radiants cannot.

[NameIess]

Windrunners can beat Mistborn in a straight up fight:

Quote

Questioner

We've been wondering who would win in a fight, a Mistborn or...a Windrunner.

Brandon Sanderson

It really depends on the situation. I would say the Windrunner will win on a battlefield and the Mistborn will win at sneaking around and slitting people's throats.

 

[Bigmikey357]

What is a Mistborn going to do to a Radiant in living Shardplate? Can't push or pull on it without duraluminum, and if they are actually able to manage it they can dismiss it instantly and reform it. No weapon is breaking plate with one shot. They cannot outrun the Radiant and cannot outmaneuver 4 of the orders, the two gravitation and the two transportation, plus they can't fight close range with Edgedancer/ Dustbringer either. 

[Tglassy]

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

What is a Mistborn going to do to a Radiant in living Shardplate? Can't push or pull on it without duraluminum, and if they are actually able to manage it they can dismiss it instantly and reform it. No weapon is breaking plate with one shot. They cannot outrun the Radiant and cannot outmaneuver 4 of the orders, the two gravitation and the two transportation, plus they can't fight close range with Edgedancer/ Dustbringer either. 

I've said this before, a duralumin enhanced pewter burn should grant enough strength to rip a Radiant's head straight off, plate or no, while at the same time granting the speed and dexterity to do so.  Yeah, it'll grow back, but I imagine that would take a moment and be disorienting, especially if the Mistborn then burns Chromium, with or without Duralumin, to drain the Stormlight and potentially interfere with Stormlight Healing in the process.  Yes, it takes a bit of maneuvering and planning and maybe a bit of luck, but it is certainly doable.  Vin was able to make a man's head explode with a headbutt.  Duralumin Pewter is insanely powerful, if only for short bursts.  It could even be strong enough to punch through the breastplate, punching a hole in the Radiant.  Start burning Chromium while your hand is grabbing the Radiant's spine, and he's done.  

[Bigmikey357]

16 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

I've said this before, a duralumin enhanced pewter burn should grant enough strength to rip a Radiant's head straight off, plate or no, while at the same time granting the speed and dexterity to do so.  Yeah, it'll grow back, but I imagine that would take a moment and be disorienting, especially if the Mistborn then burns Chromium, with or without Duralumin, to drain the Stormlight and potentially interfere with Stormlight Healing in the process.  Yes, it takes a bit of maneuvering and planning and maybe a bit of luck, but it is certainly doable.  Vin was able to make a man's head explode with a headbutt.  Duralumin Pewter is insanely powerful, if only for short bursts.  It could even be strong enough to punch through the breastplate, punching a hole in the Radiant.  Start burning Chromium while your hand is grabbing the Radiant's spine, and he's done.  

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.  I believe a duraluminum fueled pewter punch may be barely strong enough to shatter the helmet, though even that's debatable. It's not going to knock off the Radiant's head.  And if that Mistborn cannot one shot kill the Radiant at that close range then the guy is dead, for he would have expended all his pewter and wouldn't be able to get away to refuel. Meanwhile he's in front of a very pissed off Radiant who has lost none of his combat effectiveness. 

[StanLemon]

5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.  I believe a duraluminum fueled pewter punch may be barely strong enough to shatter the helmet, though even that's debatable. It's not going to knock off the Radiant's head.  And if that Mistborn cannot one shot kill the Radiant at that close range then the guy is dead, for he would have expended all his pewter and wouldn't be able to get away to refuel. Meanwhile he's in front of a very pissed off Radiant who has lost none of his combat effectiveness. 

A Duralumin enhanced Pewter hit from Vin (who as we all know doesn't have much base physical strength) was enough to obliterate Pewterarm's head. So a Duralumin enhanced Pewter hit is pretty strong. 

[Bigmikey357]

53 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

A Duralumin enhanced Pewter hit from Vin (who as we all know doesn't have much base physical strength) was enough to obliterate Pewterarm's head. So a Duralumin enhanced Pewter hit is pretty strong. 

A 50 ton rock monster did its best to crush a plate-less Renarin and could not manage the task.  Is a pewterarm stronger than a Thunderclast? A chasmfiend hit Dalinar, Adolin, and Elkohar with a massive claw, yet that impact didn't destroy their plate. Are we to suppose a Thug could do better,  even with duraluminum? Allomancy power output is limited.  A Mistborn is, for all his or her power, ultimately a man killer. Radiants are built to defend against natural disasters and extinction level events. The only way for the Mistborn to ensure victory is if they do things to keep the Radiant from bringing their abilities to bear. A knife in the dark.  Because taking one head on is a losing proposition. 

[StanLemon]

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

A 50 ton rock monster did its best to crush a plate-less Renarin and could not manage the task.  Is a pewterarm stronger than a Thunderclast? A chasmfiend hit Dalinar, Adolin, and Elkohar with a massive claw, yet that impact didn't destroy their plate. Are we to suppose a Thug could do better,  even with duraluminum? Allomancy power output is limited.  A Mistborn is, for all his or her power, ultimately a man killer. Radiants are built to defend against natural disasters and extinction level events. The only way for the Mistborn to ensure victory is if they do things to keep the Radiant from bringing their abilities to bear. A knife in the dark.  Because taking one head on is a losing proposition. 

Two big points here. First Renarin has Progression, so he has healing up to 11. Second, strikes from larger targets disperse the force of the blow. I agree that in most situations a Radiant would defeat a Mistborn but it does seem you are misrepresenting a Mistborn's power. There are plenty of scenes where we see Plate getting damaged by less than great forces. But to use your Chasmfiend, it never really got a solid hit on any of those three. The closest was when Dalinar caught the claw which had the side effect of cracking his Plate. Plate is amazingly powerful, but it has it's limits and can be broken even by normal methods. The sad truth is that Brandon has been inconsistent with how much Plate can take, he has mighty scenes where it handles an amazing amount of damage from a single source (albeit getting damaged in the process) and others where lesser sources are capable of wearing it down, only taking time.

A lot of this combat conversation is a little ridiculous though because a lot of it assumes that the Mistborn would do a straight up fight against a Radiant. It would be to keep a distance, be sparing with metals, hide, attack, hide, disengage, etc. which would be stupid for a Mistborn to do. Only two Orders would be able to keep up with a Mistborn (Windrunner and Skybreaker)

[Gisaku75]

9 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Two big points here. First Renarin has Progression, so he has healing up to 11. Second, strikes from larger targets disperse the force of the blow. I agree that in most situations a Radiant would defeat a Mistborn but it does seem you are misrepresenting a Mistborn's power. There are plenty of scenes where we see Plate getting damaged by less than great forces. But to use your Chasmfiend, it never really got a solid hit on any of those three. The closest was when Dalinar caught the claw which had the side effect of cracking his Plate. Plate is amazingly powerful, but it has it's limits and can be broken even by normal methods. The sad truth is that Brandon has been inconsistent with how much Plate can take, he has mighty scenes where it handles an amazing amount of damage from a single source (albeit getting damaged in the process) and others where lesser sources are capable of wearing it down, only taking time.

To calculate the force needed to break a Shadrplate and kill the owner in one hit, just refer to Szeth's fight against the king of Jah Keved.
Szeth infuses a stone into the wall 20 times and throws it towards the Sharbearer. The impact is strong enough to break the plate and throw the Shadrbearer across the room killing him instantly.

The gravitational acceleration on Roshar is 6.87 m / s. If we consider a one-second flight, then the stone hit the Shardbearer at a speed of 137.4 m / s. If we take the standard weight of a stone, as indicated on coppermind, we have that a 6 kg object at the speed of 137.4 m / s can instantly kill a Shardbarer.

The problem lies in deciding how much Mistborn's speed increases when burning pewter. If the speed increases exactly as the strenght, then burning pewter the speed doubles and flaring it triples. Using duralumin probably speeds up 10 times normal.

The average speed of a boxer's punch is 13.8 m / s, so the mistborn punch will normally travel at a speed of 41.4 m / s with a weight much greater than 6 kg. Burning Duraluminio the punch would reach the speed of 138 m / s more than enough to detonate the head of the Radiant. Or in the worst scenario, making him incapacitated for long enough to allow Misborn to swallow more pewter and finish him off.

[Bigmikey357]

Pewter isn't granting that much of a speed increase,  otherwise they'd look like steelrunners everytime they flare their metal. They may receive a bit of a boost due to their increased strength and dexterity but Allomancy has an upper limit. 

Furthermore, that stone is way heavier than any 6 kg. Szeth cuts a stone slab out of the wall as tall as he is. A standard head size stone may be 6 kg but that isn't what hit the shardbearer. 

Finally,  which is harder, bone or Shardplate?  Even if a Duraluminum fueled pewter punch moved as fast as stated and applied that much force, the result would break the Mistborn's hand even if it shattered the Radiant helm too.

I think a Mistborn will have a chance against lower level Radiants,  ones without access to blade or plate, ones that are inefficient with their stormlight usage.  But as they get higher in Oaths, it becomes more impossible for that Mistborn to bring enough power to the table to incapacitate or kill the guy straight up.  A 5 Oath Radiant is akin to an Abrams Tank with magic. And a Mistborn defense isn't nearly as strong. 

[Gisaku75]

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Pewter isn't granting that much of a speed increase,  otherwise they'd look like steelrunners everytime they flare their metal. They may receive a bit of a boost due to their increased strength and dexterity but Allomancy has an upper limit. 

Furthermore, that stone is way heavier than any 6 kg. Szeth cuts a stone slab out of the wall as tall as he is. A standard head size stone may be 6 kg but that isn't what hit the shardbearer. 

Finally,  which is harder, bone or Shardplate?  Even if a Duraluminum fueled pewter punch moved as fast as stated and applied that much force, the result would break the Mistborn's hand even if it shattered the Radiant helm too.

I think a Mistborn will have a chance against lower level Radiants,  ones without access to blade or plate, ones that are inefficient with their stormlight usage.  But as they get higher in Oaths, it becomes more impossible for that Mistborn to bring enough power to the table to incapacitate or kill the guy straight up.  A 5 Oath Radiant is akin to an Abrams Tank with magic. And a Mistborn defense isn't nearly as strong. 

Being Italian I have to rely on the translation and not on the original text, but in the book there is talk of a large stone among those in the wall of the building, so the size and weight will be those, we are certainly not talking about 50 kg blocks of marble. Moreover, in another passage of the book, Dalinar's armor is cracked by the Parshedis using slings and stones the size of a head. In this case the bullet is much slower than that used by Szeth and still manages to have a certain effect. So I would say that my calculations are quite accurate.

As for the speed guaranteed by pewter, we do not have an objective data, but tripling the speed of a human being does not make it so fast that it cannot be perceived with the naked eye as it happens with a Steelrunner. The speed of the latter is not comparable to that of a mistborn unless you use Duralluminiun, and this is precisely the strength of a Mistborn.

the fundamental difference between pewter and Stormlight is that the first increases physical resistance more while the latter ensures greater regeneration. The bones and muscles of a Mistborn will be 3 times more resistant than normal thanks to pewter and 10 times as much thanks to duralumin. which is why the thug's head exploded while Vim suffered no damage. If her head hadn't been much more resistant than that of her opponent, she too would have been seriously injured during the impact.

[agrabes]

Also keep in mind that the value of this exercise gets less and less each time you start adding unusual scenarios.  The question isn't "Could a Mistborn defeat anyone given the complete element of surprise?" it's "Who could defeat a Mistborn?"

You've got to be comparing this on even footing, otherwise it's worthless.  Sure, the Mistborn could get the drop on an unsuspecting Knight Radiant.  So could an 80 year old arthritic grandmother.  You should compare them on even footing - the Radiant knows as much about a Mistborn as the average knowledgeable person on Scadrial and the Mistborn knows as much about the powers of the Knights Radiant as the average knowledgeable person on Roshar.  Neither side has access to special abilities or abilities not yet shown in the books.  Theoretical WoB's don't count - those are just Sanderson answering questions fans pose.  It doesn't mean that any character will ever do any of the things that he says are theoretically possible, so you shouldn't assume that (for example) a Lightweaver would use a laser in battle.  Sanderson has said that it's possible, but it hasn't happened on screen.  We don't know if it will become a normal power used by all Lightweavers, or just a secret that one person figures out, or maybe an advanced technique that everyone knows but only a few can successfully use.  Until then, we should assume it's just not a tool that can be used.  It's sort of like asking "could a US soldier from World War II defeat a German Soldier from World War II?" and then saying "Well, due to their alliance with Imperial Japan you have to assume that the German knows karate and that would provide an advantage."

So, Mistborn with reasonable stock of metals and weapons vs. Radiant with shardblade and plate and reasonable stock of stormlight in their body and gems, each knowing each other's abilities agree to fight to the death in an arena.  Using Transportation to move to another realm is forbidden.  Limited atium is allowed, similar to the amounts Vin had in most fights since atium is commonly used in the first trilogy.  I think most orders of Radiants would beat the Mistborn in this situation.  The radiant would keep their distance, spreading out hits from coins or other metal across many plates of the armor making it unlikely for the armor to break.  The Radiant's initial attacks are all dodged by the Mistborn due to atium, but eventually it runs out.  The Radiant's defensive and evasive powers are too great.  Think of a Windrunner - all they have to do is make the Mistborn too heavy to take off using steel pushes.  There are just too many powers that the Radiants have that are too useful.  The Mistborn has duraluminum, but (in line with the books) can only use it once or twice per battle because it burns all their metal at once.  So, maybe they use it to push or pull the Radiant's armor or blade, forcing them to dismiss it.  After doing that a few times, their duraluminum is expended and the Radiant can resume a normal fight.

I think a very good Mistborn could defeat a Radiant if they are able to do things like save their atium or duraluminum for just the right moment and catch the Radiant off guard.  But that takes an above average Mistborn and a below average Radiant to work, imo.

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

Also keep in mind that the value of this exercise gets less and less each time you start adding unusual scenarios.  The question isn't "Could a Mistborn defeat anyone given the complete element of surprise?" it's "Who could defeat a Mistborn?"

You've got to be comparing this on even footing, otherwise it's worthless.  Sure, the Mistborn could get the drop on an unsuspecting Knight Radiant.  So could an 80 year old arthritic grandmother.  You should compare them on even footing - the Radiant knows as much about a Mistborn as the average knowledgeable person on Scadrial and the Mistborn knows as much about the powers of the Knights Radiant as the average knowledgeable person on Roshar.  Neither side has access to special abilities or abilities not yet shown in the books.  Theoretical WoB's don't count - those are just Sanderson answering questions fans pose.  It doesn't mean that any character will ever do any of the things that he says are theoretically possible, so you shouldn't assume that (for example) a Lightweaver would use a laser in battle.  Sanderson has said that it's possible, but it hasn't happened on screen.  We don't know if it will become a normal power used by all Lightweavers, or just a secret that one person figures out, or maybe an advanced technique that everyone knows but only a few can successfully use.  Until then, we should assume it's just not a tool that can be used.  It's sort of like asking "could a US soldier from World War II defeat a German Soldier from World War II?" and then saying "Well, due to their alliance with Imperial Japan you have to assume that the German knows karate and that would provide an advantage."

So, Mistborn with reasonable stock of metals and weapons vs. Radiant with shardblade and plate and reasonable stock of stormlight in their body and gems, each knowing each other's abilities agree to fight to the death in an arena.  Using Transportation to move to another realm is forbidden.  Limited atium is allowed, similar to the amounts Vin had in most fights since atium is commonly used in the first trilogy.  I think most orders of Radiants would beat the Mistborn in this situation.  The radiant would keep their distance, spreading out hits from coins or other metal across many plates of the armor making it unlikely for the armor to break.  The Radiant's initial attacks are all dodged by the Mistborn due to atium, but eventually it runs out.  The Radiant's defensive and evasive powers are too great.  Think of a Windrunner - all they have to do is make the Mistborn too heavy to take off using steel pushes.  There are just too many powers that the Radiants have that are too useful.  The Mistborn has duraluminum, but (in line with the books) can only use it once or twice per battle because it burns all their metal at once.  So, maybe they use it to push or pull the Radiant's armor or blade, forcing them to dismiss it.  After doing that a few times, their duraluminum is expended and the Radiant can resume a normal fight.

I think a very good Mistborn could defeat a Radiant if they are able to do things like save their atium or duraluminum for just the right moment and catch the Radiant off guard.  But that takes an above average Mistborn and a below average Radiant to work, imo.

I agree. Problem is,  while the Mistborn books have a complete arc done and we have seen most of their abilities in action, we have to speculate for the Radiant side. We don't yet know the properties of live plate so we must speculate based off of context clues. And while it's reasonable to assume that live plate performance far outstrips dead plate considering the jump from dead eyes to live spren blades we haven't seen it on screen.  Also, we've never seen the greater power of the surges or a Full 5 Radiant in action, we just speculate based on Kaladin's progress and how much power he gains after his level ups. We don't even really know why the Heralds are supposed to be miles above the Radiants just because of their direct feed of Investiture. 

I understand why some would think a Mistborn would beat a Radiant hands down. Seeing is believing as it were.  But I disagree even though I must extrapolate to do so. My reasoning is simple.  People with these abilities destroyed a planet.  A God was afraid that they'd destroy another. The forces that they command warp landscapes. The most powerful Mistborn we've ever seen killed an army, sure, but could her power set create the Shattered Plains? I'm speculating but I believe it's based on a solid foundation.  Could final form Vin beat 3rd Oath Kaladin? Probably,  though she'd find it much harder than she'd initially anticipated.  Could Elend? I don't think so. Now imagine Kal with a set of living Shardplate and full command of his Surges. There's nothing Vin can do against that unless she ascends. Now Vin is the most talented Mistborn ever created; a regular, baseline Mistborn won't be nearly as talented or skilled, isn't nearly as deadly.  If the Ascendant Warrior would have a problem with someone not even at final form then the average Mistborn would not stand a chance. If it's an opponent Vin can't beat  then we can safely say that Mistborn aren't winning. Give Vin a gun with aluminum bullets and the fight gets closer, give her medallion tech and primer cubes and it gets closer still. But at that point Vin becomes Batman, less about the abilities and more about the tools.

[agrabes]

2 hours ago, Gisaku75 said:

Being Italian I have to rely on the translation and not on the original text, but in the book there is talk of a large stone among those in the wall of the building, so the size and weight will be those, we are certainly not talking about 50 kg blocks of marble. Moreover, in another passage of the book, Dalinar's armor is cracked by the Parshedis using slings and stones the size of a head. In this case the bullet is much slower than that used by Szeth and still manages to have a certain effect. So I would say that my calculations are quite accurate.

As for the speed guaranteed by pewter, we do not have an objective data, but tripling the speed of a human being does not make it so fast that it cannot be perceived with the naked eye as it happens with a Steelrunner. The speed of the latter is not comparable to that of a mistborn unless you use Duralluminiun, and this is precisely the strength of a Mistborn.

the fundamental difference between pewter and Stormlight is that the first increases physical resistance more while the latter ensures greater regeneration. The bones and muscles of a Mistborn will be 3 times more resistant than normal thanks to pewter and 10 times as much thanks to duralumin. which is why the thug's head exploded while Vim suffered no damage. If her head hadn't been much more resistant than that of her opponent, she too would have been seriously injured during the impact.

As an Italian though, you're probably more familiar than us new worlders with ancient/medieval buildings created with stone masonry.  I don't think that it seems reasonable for a "large stone" from the wall of a building to weigh only 6 kg.  That's a small stone.  Today's typical clay masonry brick weighs about 2 kg (5 lbs) and that is something like 2"x4"x8".  So assuming these stones have similar density, you're looking at a stone about of about 192 cubic inches volume or a stone cube that is about 6" (~15 cm) on each side if it weighs 6 kg.  I guess we don't know for sure how this wall is made, but that just seems small for one of the largest stones in a wall.  I would guess in metric terms a large stone block used for wall construction in a castle is probably something like 50cmx75cmx100cm (~18"x24"x36"), more than 100 times greater in volume and therefore weight.  The stone used might be less dense than clay masonry bricks though.  Still, 6 kg is a small stone in terms of wall construction.  I think even 50 kg is on the small side for a "large" stone, I would guess it's at least 100 kg.

I also think a key difference between what happened in those two scenes is the mass, velocity, and number of strikes.  In the Szeth assassination case, he is throwing one stone of extremely high mass and with extremely high velocity at one piece of shardplate.  In Dalinar's battle, he is being hit with many stones that all likely weigh less than 1 kg.  Notice too that his armor is cracked but not destroyed.  In the books, it seems to be explained that each section of shardplate can take a number of hard hits before shattering.  A thrown rock is a hard enough hit to go to this count.  So it's not that one hit from a small rock moving relatively slowly can crack the plate, it's that a lot of hits can eventually crack it.

If you look at your math, say you have an arm of 10 kg mass going at 42 m/s, you get 420 kg-m/s.  Maybe they put their weight into it and you get something like 40-50 kg involved.  That's still much less speed and mass than a large stone.  If you look at a 100 kg stone block going at 140 m/s, you get 14,000 kg-m/s.  Even assuming a small stone of 6 kg gets you to 840 kg-m/s, double the momentum of the punch at triple maximum human velocity.  Remember, the entire mass of the person is not going into the punch unless the Mistborn goes flying in the air, fist first.  The only mass that gets involved is the mass that's moving.  So at best half the body mass.

I guess my point is, it doesn't seem reasonable that a Mistborn could punch through shardplate in one hit.  They could probably crack a plate section in one hit and go through it on the second one.  I don't think we can do any math to prove this objectively, just what seems to make sense. 

58 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I agree. Problem is,  while the Mistborn books have a complete arc done and we have seen most of their abilities in action, we have to speculate for the Radiant side. We don't yet know the properties of live plate so we must speculate based off of context clues. And while it's reasonable to assume that live plate performance far outstrips dead plate considering the jump from dead eyes to live spren blades we haven't seen it on screen.  Also, we've never seen the greater power of the surges or a Full 5 Radiant in action, we just speculate based on Kaladin's progress and how much power he gains after his level ups. We don't even really know why the Heralds are supposed to be miles above the Radiants just because of their direct feed of Investiture. 

I understand why some would think a Mistborn would beat a Radiant hands down. Seeing is believing as it were.  But I disagree even though I must extrapolate to do so. My reasoning is simple.  People with these abilities destroyed a planet.  A God was afraid that they'd destroy another. The forces that they command warp landscapes. The most powerful Mistborn we've ever seen killed an army, sure, but could her power set create the Shattered Plains? I'm speculating but I believe it's based on a solid foundation.  Could final form Vin beat 3rd Oath Kaladin? Probably,  though she'd find it much harder than she'd initially anticipated.  Could Elend? I don't think so. Now imagine Kal with a set of living Shardplate and full command of his Surges. There's nothing Vin can do against that unless she ascends. Now Vin is the most talented Mistborn ever created; a regular, baseline Mistborn won't be nearly as talented or skilled, isn't nearly as deadly.  If the Ascendant Warrior would have a problem with someone not even at final form then the average Mistborn would not stand a chance. If it's an opponent Vin can't beat  then we can safely say that Mistborn aren't winning. Give Vin a gun with aluminum bullets and the fight gets closer, give her medallion tech and primer cubes and it gets closer still. But at that point Vin becomes Batman, less about the abilities and more about the tools.

Yeah, that is a good point.  We do know some things about things like the power of living plate from Dalinar's visions, but we do have to speculate a bit.  I guess my point is we need to keep speculation to the minimum, or it's just a matter of who can come up with a better story.  It was getting pretty out there.  I just think people need to remember that the books show us that while powerful, Mistborn have serious limitations.  Their powers can only do certain specific things.  And the most powerful abilities they have are severely limited due to short supply (atium) or the nature of the ability (duraluminum flares).