Mistborn vs Else

[Bigmikey357]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Leaching stills stops it.

Only while the Chromium user is holding the Radiant and actively burning.  Once he lets go the Shardblade is back in play, and his pouch is still full of Stormlight unless the Mistborn happens to grab both man and stormpouch. Like I said,  if the Mistborn cannot manage to kill the guy right then and there, then most likely he dies.

7 minutes ago, Dancer said:

Just remember that Shallan as a kid reached the fourth oath. 

3rd I believe.  Pattern blade but no plate. Vin was a Mistborn as an infant.  Are we putting baby Vin in a circle with young Shallan and have them duel to the death? Not likely.  We're pitting 2 grown up, reasonably trained magic users against each other. Your point is likely that there can be inept or poorly trained Radiants, particularly in this era when they're rediscovering their powers. Lift for example is well on her way to Oath 4 and presumably Shardplate.  If we were to pit her up against  say, Shan Elarial then Lift is probably a goner.  But why in the world would anyone do that?

 

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

The Returned have no inherent powers, them being of the 5th Heightening is simply because of the Splinter of Divine Breath, which they cannnot use for Awakening

It has been awhile since I read Warbreaker so I'm a bit fuzzy concerning what powers Returned get other than immortality.  My thought on Returned was that as Cognitive Shadows they'd be impossible to kill by any means other than deprivation of their 1 breath a week.  So while the Mistborn really has nothing to fear when facing one they couldn't finish the job. Meanwhile the Returned could use that Divine Breath like a reaper death seal, using their life to end the Mistborn.  I could be mistaken. It may not work in that manner.  That was just my thought process behind placing them where I did. But a 5th Heightening Awakener has a healing factor too, don't they?

[Honorless]

4 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

It has been awhile since I read Warbreaker so I'm a bit fuzzy concerning what powers Returned get other than immortality.  My thought on Returned was that as Cognitive Shadows they'd be impossible to kill by any means other than deprivation of their 1 breath a week.  So while the Mistborn really has nothing to fear when facing one they couldn't finish the job. Meanwhile the Returned could use that Divine Breath like a reaper death seal, using their life to end the Mistborn.  I could be mistaken. It may not work in that manner.  That was just my thought process behind placing them where I did. But a 5th Heightening Awakener has a healing factor too, don't they?

Not quite a healing factor, just functional immortality via agelessness and various immunities. They can still be killed. Blushweaver was killed by having her throat slit.

[Dancer]

3 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

 

3rd I believe.  Pattern blade but no plate. Vin was a Mistborn as an infant.  Are we putting baby Vin in a circle with young Shallan and have them duel to the death? Not likely.  We're pitting 2 grown up, reasonably trained magic users against each other. Your point is likely that there can be inept or poorly trained Radiants, particularly in this era when they're rediscovering their powers. Lift for example is well on her way to Oath 4 and presumably Shardplate.  If we were to pit her up against  say, Shan Elarial then Lift is probably a goner.  But why in the world would anyone do that?

 

It has been awhile since I read Warbreaker so I'm a bit fuzzy concerning what powers Returned get other than immortality.  My thought on Returned was that as Cognitive Shadows they'd be impossible to kill by any means other than deprivation of their 1 breath a week.  So while the Mistborn really has nothing to fear when facing one they couldn't finish the job. Meanwhile the Returned could use that Divine Breath like a reaper death seal, using their life to end the Mistborn.  I could be mistaken. It may not work in that manner.  That was just my thought process behind placing them where I did. But a 5th Heightening Awakener has a healing factor too, don't they?

yey my point was there can be inept Radiants of higher orders. If I'm not mistaken didn't Brandon say that Shallan is further along in her oaths then Kaladin is. If so that would make her 4th oath Radiant that is doing her oaths all over again because, well she's Shallan. 

Returned can be killed through mundane means.

Blushweaver gets killed by having her throat slit at the end of Warbreaker.

  

[+Oltux72]

On 27/12/2019 at 9:57 PM, Tglassy said:

I'm not convinced illusions would work against a Mistborn, due to Bronze.  

That and if the illusion is wearing any metal (buttons, belt, armor ...) there will be no metal lines.

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I'm honestly surprised that there is still debate over whether a regular Mistborn could beat a Radiant.  I believe that they're the only group in debate so far as I know but still.  Basically for all the power and versatility a Mistborn has, they are primarily offensive in their skill set.

They also have a sensory advantage due to tin, bronze, atium and electrum. They also have an advantage in stealth and blending in. Shard Plate or a Blade are kind of obvious. Also, they glow. Mistborn are assassins. The Knights Radiant are soldiers.

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

As Vin shows that can be a lot of offensive firepower indeed. They are even more formidable if you give one some Era 2 weaponry and Atium.  Even still, they have limited defense.

Indeed. Slugging it out is not a viable option, unless we are talking about a Radiant without a blade.

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

So their strategy versus any opposition is going to be to either overwhelm the opponent or dodge until the other guy runs out of fuel while launching ranged attacks. Either way they cannot take a hit from a sufficiently strong adversary.

Or to use ambush and surprise. A Radiant cannot stay in plate forever. Striking while he is tending to certain bodily needs is a possible option.

On 27/12/2019 at 10:42 PM, Pathfinder said:

I think the screamers being unable to detect Shallan's illusions versus Kaladin's surges hints that there is a copper like effect for illusions.

Right, but you can still track on the negative. If that illusion looks like it is using Stormlight, but you "hear" nothing, that is an illusion.

7 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Radiant swings sword:

I am afraid that is already the basic mistake. Swinging a shard blade against a single opponent not in Plate makes little sense. You have a vorpal edge and massive length, almost like a light sabre but longer. Use them. Run them through with a thrust.

 

In most of these battle questions the terrain is not specified. And without that we can list only factors. And that is no good for a final judgement. For example, is this a populated city where the mistborn can just walk by and strike by surprise? And abandoned city full of metal objects?
An open savanna without any metals but what the Mistborn carries? Is there enough water around so that the Mistborn can just wait for an opponent to run out of Stormlight without death from thirst?

[Pathfinder]

10 hours ago, Dancer said:

No sorry I didn't see that WOB. Does it specify that all Elsecallers after a certain level of oaths can do the ranged Soulcasting or just that Elsecallers are better then Lightwevers and that really skilled ones can achieve this ability. If it is the former then we have no problem and your average Mistborn has no chance but if it is the latter then there is some wiggle room in this debate.  

No problem.  Its on page 1, the 24th post. Your answer is right there.

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Radiant swings sword:

Radiant would be using an ability, not neccesarily up close and swinging

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Mistborn burns Pewter, dodges the blow,

Stormlight also enhances speed and dexterity. So they would be roughly on par with each other. Now if the mistborn was burning atium thats a different story.

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

then grabs their arm, or touches them in any way, and burns Chromium with Duralumin, leaching all the Investiture from both the Armor and the Radiant in one large burst,

Did you have a chance to read the WoB i posted on how chromium functions? It does not happen instantly. The uninvested is burned away first. Then invested. Invested metals take longer. Brandon said it could take seconds and requires contact to be maintained. that is the difference between metal flakes and jewelry. This is full body armor we are talking about. It will take longer than seconds to leech that.

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

either causing the armor to disappear or causing it to lock up (depending on how living plate armor reacts to no more investiture.)  At the same time they're burning Pewter with the Duralumin, so they punch a hole through the now defenseless Radiant.

If the mistborn activated duralumin, then all their currently burning metals would also vanish from being burned in a large burst.

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

No more Radiant.

I disagree for the above reasons

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

I'm sure there are Orders that would fair better than others, but just "Staying away in the air" doesn't really work, because of both Bendalloy and Steel pushing.  The Mistborn can launch themselves into the sky with Duralamin Steel Push, and a Duralumin Steel Push can also push on embedded Metalminds, so I'm pretty sure it could  push on Shard Plate or Blades.

We know via WoB that a duralumin push can affect shardblades. But living spren blades can be dismissed and resummoned instantly while the mistborn has just burned away all his or her metals and has to refuel. If it was against an elsecaller, those metals would have already been soulcasted to smoke so no additional resources.

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

 Heck, a Radiant would have a better time of it WITHOUT their plate or blades fighting a Mistborn with Duralumin. And Bendalloy can let them dash around almost like Feruchemical Steel.   

That is not how bendalloy works at all. You put up the bubble. Move within it. Drop the bubble. Cool down time. Then you can put up the bubble again. It is mentioned the big danger of doing that is when the shooters learn waynes trick and wait till the bubble drops to shoot him during the cool down period.

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Adhesion: Chromium

But each radiant has two abilities. So that is adhesion used in concert with gravitation or tension. 

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Gravitation:  Steel push/Chromium

Steel push still relies on metal on firm ground to push off of. No metal,  no steel push. Deprive the mistborn of his or her coins and he or she will be dependant on duralumin pushes that exhausts his or her supplies even faster

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Division: Maybe useful, but potentially made moot with Chromium

We know touching the source prevents firing of the spirit gun, but the woman in the story still had to dodge the shot when it worked. Sand mastery is only unique because we see specific examples of it working that way. The power of a ribbon is in its point. Breaking the ribbon at its side with anything mundane disrupts it. Disrupting the power at the point destroys it. Taldain is a low investiture world. We have a WoB that the various powers on the worlds of the cosmere are not meant to be balanced. Some are stronger than others due to having higher investiture.

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Abrasion: Chromium

Requires touch

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Progression/Regrowth: Chromium.  No Stormlight, no healing.

Requires touch

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Illumination: Bronze (Potentially.  Possible that Lightweavers can't be detected, or are too quiet).

My thoughts exactly

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Transformation: Chromium (It's harder to Soulcast invested things, and therefore harder to soulcast invested People, like Mistborn.  Again, no Stormlight, no Soulcasting)

Only when a mistborn is burning metals at that time and even then they can be soulcasted. WoB for that. As i said earlier, soulcast away the vials of metals leaving the mistborn with only what was ingested. If the mistborn uses duralumin, that removes the left over metals even faster. Then the mundane human who is out of metals can be soulcasted with ease.

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Transportation: Good for getting away from the Mistborn.  But doesn't do anything TO the Mistborn, except maybe strand him in the Cognitive Realm, but then you'd have to get past his Chromium to infuse him with Stormlight.

Can still affect people from the cognitive realm. See the deleted scene of jasnah soulcasting away ropes from the cognitive realm. As i said. Soulcast away extra metals. Transport to the cogntive realm.  Let existing metals run out. Soulcast mistborn away. If the mistborn stops burning metals to conserve, then accomplishes the same goal. A mistborn not burning metals is as easy to soulcast away as a normal person. WoB back that up

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Cohesion: No clue, can't see how this would help, though.

Anytimr the mistborn would try to push off a coin, the ground would turn to mud and move, moving the coin and throwing off the push 

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Tension: No clue, can't see how this would help, though.

Anything could be turned into a weapon or armor that cannot be affected by allomancy. Clothing. A hankerchief. 

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

So yeah.  Chromium for the win.  Use it with Duralumin, and you potentially bypass the "Time" limitation.  Then, it would depend on whether or not you have enough Chromium to drain all their stormlight.  If you don't, you're probably toast.  

Bendalloy makes a time bubble that has defined perimeter. Chromium is not instant. Please refer to the WoB i posted about it.

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Side Note: I wonder if Chromium could kill a Spren?  They are, after all, living Investiture...

It would take way too long and way too much chromium 

9 hours ago, Agent34 said:

Considering how the metallic arts are low Investiture magics I don't see why pushing on embedded spikes would compare to pushing on something like a Shardblade. The Bands aren't at the level of Investiture to be considered a Shardblade, although they're close, and they can't even be perceived with allomancy.

I agree.

9 hours ago, Agent34 said:

A duraluminium push isn't going to solve all of your problems by any means.

I agree

9 hours ago, Dancer said:

Not really it just requires someone to have a lot of practice with Bendalloy. It's like the steel sight trick. You have to have used the metal for a long time. This usually tends to create savants because the longer you saturate your soul with Investiture the more likely your soul will change to suit that Investiture. As long as you aren't continually burning your metal every day and taking time off you should be able to reach this level of skill without becoming Spook. 

There is the end part of that WoB. The edge of the barrier results in all sorts of problems. Basically if you run with a speed bubble, you are going to be moving air, stones and anything outside it across the thresh hold making it deflect. So its not steel feruchemy. There are additional limitations regardless of savantism.  

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Chromium only drains kinetic investiture if I recall correctly,  so draining the Stormlight from the Radiant does nothing to the stormlight in his or her pouch. Plus, pewterarms can punch hard enough to break bones but not hard enough to kill immediately,  at least not unless you were made Mistborn via Lerasium. Even then, unless you kill the guy with one shot Stormlight still has a chance to heal the guy. You're going to have to do the leecher thing more than once and, once the Radiant is aware of the danger,  it's going to be nearly impossible to pull the same trick twice.

I agree

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Now let's go to the list of surges to see how to combat a Mistborn without using any esoteric methods.  

Adhesion: make an area of the battlefield sticky. Mistborn gets caught up. While trying to get free Radiant closes distance and boom. Dead.

Dont think the radiant even has to close the distance. Adhesion usually also has gravitation or tension. Either take a hair from the radiants head, and turn it into a needle with tension and throw a bunch of them killing the stuck mistborn or if you have gravitation fly over and lash a boulder down at the immobilized mistborn crushing him or her

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Gravitation: Radiant much more maneuverable because flight doesn't require anchors.  Can play keep away while slinging projectiles, forcing Mistborn to expend Atium to dodge. Atium runs out, Mistborn gets hit with plate enhanced boulder throw. 

Or also use division while flying. 

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Division: hit directly with flame or make wall of flame to restrict movement,  guiding Mistborn movements to a place of their choice.  May be questionable.  But we know via WOB that division works on people so I guess it's a Matter of who touches who first.

Also use division to destroy the coins the mistborn is using. Mistborn can now no longer fly or attack at ranged.

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Abrasion: make the battlefield surface slippery,  unbalance the Mistborn,  make them steel push to get at the Radiant.  Chaos ensues.

The slippery surface would also apply to steel pushes.  The coin needs to be rigid to push off of. The coin would slip, preventing flight.

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Illumination: if you can't discern the threat... Plus, the way Truthwatchers would use the surge might negate Atium. 

I think renarin is unique so i think truthwatchers use illusions but i agree with your first point

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Transformation: Soulcast metals into smoke,  lose most of your offensive firepower. 

My thoughts exactly

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Tension:  turn your weapons into rubber...

Tension works the other way. Allows you to make weapons and armor from clothing, paper, etc

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Cohesion: turn the ground into quicksand. 

Which would prevent stable anchors for the mistborn to push and pull on

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Progression: can tank any hit

I agree 

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Transportation: Mistborn can't catch the guy to leech them. 

I agree

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Finally,  Shardblades don't need Stormlight to summon. And even if a Steelpush can effect  a shard blade or plate, both can be dismissed and summoned instantly if alive. If Mistborn is pushing or pulling on it, dismiss it and only use it to block projectile.  The Mistborn has to drain the Radiant and all their reserves to have a chance,  and they still have to deal with a soul severing weapon. I suppose a Mistborn could kill a Radiant but it's going to take an incredibly skilled Mistborn and an incredibly inept Radiant. And I don't think you can reach level 4 or 5 if you're inept.

I agree 

8 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Leaching stills stops it.

Please refer to chromium WoB. First does non invested metal.  Then stormlight.  Stormlight is contained via armor (the radiant in the vision didnt leak stormlight). So the third is invested metal. That takes the longest. Jewelry takes seconds. How long would full body plate take?

7 hours ago, Dancer said:

Just remember that Shallan as a kid reached the fourth oath. 

And she was making illusions naturally at that age as per her memories

7 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Only while the Chromium user is holding the Radiant and actively burning.  Once he lets go the Shardblade is back in play, and his pouch is still full of Stormlight unless the Mistborn happens to grab both man and stormpouch. Like I said,  if the Mistborn cannot manage to kill the guy right then and there, then most likely he dies.

3rd I believe.  Pattern blade but no plate. Vin was a Mistborn as an infant.  Are we putting baby Vin in a circle with young Shallan and have them duel to the death? Not likely.  We're pitting 2 grown up, reasonably trained magic users against each other. Your point is likely that there can be inept or poorly trained Radiants, particularly in this era when they're rediscovering their powers. Lift for example is well on her way to Oath 4 and presumably Shardplate.  If we were to pit her up against  say, Shan Elarial then Lift is probably a goner.  But why in the world would anyone do that?

I agree 

7 hours ago, Dancer said:

yey my point was there can be inept Radiants of higher orders. If I'm not mistaken didn't Brandon say that Shallan is further along in her oaths then Kaladin is. If so that would make her 4th oath Radiant that is doing her oaths all over again because, well she's Shallan. 

As of the end of words of radiance she was further along than him

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

That and if the illusion is wearing any metal (buttons, belt, armor ...) there will be no metal lines.

I would use illusions to confuse the environment while making constructs to help me fight 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

They also have a sensory advantage due to tin, bronze, atium and electrum. They also have an advantage in stealth and blending in. Shard Plate or a Blade are kind of obvious. Also, they glow. Mistborn are assassins. The Knights Radiant are soldiers.

Lightweavers can hide their glow.  Shallan does so in kholinar in oathbringer. 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Indeed. Slugging it out is not a viable option, unless we are talking about a Radiant without a blade.

Or to use ambush and surprise. A Radiant cannot stay in plate forever. Striking while he is tending to certain bodily needs is a possible option.

Radiant can summon armor instantly like spren blades. See dalinars vision

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Right, but you can still track on the negative. If that illusion looks like it is using Stormlight, but you "hear" nothing, that is an illusion.

I wouldnt be using multiple illusions of myself. Id use illusions to make the battlefield appear different so the mistborn cannot rely on pushing coins at places to use as anchors. Some would work (make illusion of ground or wall solid) but then give way suddenly.  Meanwhile two flying white spines would attack (id give them wings so they would be more mobile)

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid that is already the basic mistake. Swinging a shard blade against a single opponent not in Plate makes little sense. You have a vorpal edge and massive length, almost like a light sabre but longer. Use them. Run them through with a thrust.

But depending on one thing to the exclusion of all else does not make sense

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

In most of these battle questions the terrain is not specified. And without that we can list only factors. And that is no good for a final judgement. For example, is this a populated city where the mistborn can just walk by and strike by surprise? And abandoned city full of metal objects?
An open savanna without any metals but what the Mistborn carries? Is there enough water around so that the Mistborn can just wait for an opponent to run out of Stormlight without death from thirst?

I agree. Battleground needs to be determined 

[StanLemon]

I have a question. Why does everyone think an Elsecaller would simply be able to Soulcast a Mistborn? In Oathbringer Jasnah considers to herself that it is difficult to Soulcast a normal person, so it would be even more difficult to impossible to Soulcast a Mistborn burning metals

[Honorless]

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I have a question. Why does everyone think an Elsecaller would simply be able to Soulcast a Mistborn? In Oathbringer Jasnah considers to herself that it is difficult to Soulcast a normal person, so it would be even more difficult to impossible to Soulcast a Mistborn burning metals

The OB Battle at Thaylenah gives that impression.

I think that had more to do with Dalinar's... Unification and Jasnah's own skill.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Honorless

[Tglassy]

Saying "A Mistborn without metals" is equivalent to saying "A Radiant without Gems."  You can't use that as factor against Mistborn, because the Radiant has the same limitation.

 

Of course, all this assumes no Atiium, and we don't even KNOW what all the Atium alloys and other God Metals and their alloys do.  Mistborn have so many more than just the 18 metals they've shown.  An Atium MISTING could take out a Knight Radiant before they get their blade.  Even after they get their blade, they could wind up winning.

 

And I'm still thinking a Duralumin Pewter burn could tear a Knight's head off pretty easy, Plate or no.  Then you just keep stabbing until the stormlight stops trying to regrow it.  

[StanLemon]

Just now, Honorless said:

The OB Battle at Thaylenah gives that impression.

I think that had more to do with Dalinar's... Unification and Jasnah's own skill.

That's the scene I was referring to. In that scene Jasnah thinks to herself how it's usually very difficult to Soulcast people but she's so powered up by the Perpendicularity that she's able to do it with ease

[Honorless]

6 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Saying "A Mistborn without metals" is equivalent to saying "A Radiant without Gems."  You can't use that as factor against Mistborn, because the Radiant has the same limitation.

 

Of course, all this assumes no Atiium, and we don't even KNOW what all the Atium alloys and other God Metals and their alloys do.  Mistborn have so many more than just the 18 metals they've shown.  An Atium MISTING could take out a Knight Radiant before they get their blade.  Even after they get their blade, they could wind up winning.

 

And I'm still thinking a Duralumin Pewter burn could tear a Knight's head off pretty easy, Plate or no.  Then you just keep stabbing until the stormlight stops trying to regrow it.  

I would say it's worse since metals are their access points to Investiture not just carriers of Investiture. It's more like saying a Surgebinder without access to Stormlight, or worse without spren.

Yes, it's a finite resource but metals are easier to find and carry than Stormlight or spren (specifically off-world). Sheer battle strength isn't everything, resources are just as, if not more important logistically.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Honorless

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Stormlight also enhances speed and dexterity. So they would be roughly on par with each other. Now if the mistborn was burning atium thats a different story.

Not to mention what shardplate does.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

My thoughts exactly

A smart lightwaever would put an illusion over themselves as well making all of their creations show up as using investiture.

 

[Karger]

10 hours ago, Honorless said:

Not quite a healing factor, just functional immortality via agelessness and various immunities. They can still be killed. Blushweaver was killed by having her throat slit.

They are also a bit faster and stronger then normal humans and Vasher seems to indicate that they have a low level healing factor. 

[Tglassy]

Ok, lets look at a few different scenarios. 

 

First, lets give them an infinite amount of their form of Investiture.  We'll just give them each a Shard behind them, fueling their power, the way Vin did with Elend and the way Honor Blades do.  If we go that route, then I'd say Mistborn still wins.  Yes, the Radiant has infinite Stormlight, and therefore likely cannot die.  I say likely, because I'm not sure how that would work if you just kept them decapitated.  The main reason I say that is Infinite Duralumin, Pewter, Steel and Atium.  This is near infinite strength, speed, dexterity, and can simply push the Radiant against the wall or ground and hold him there if he has something behind him to push on as well, and the ability to see the future, unless the Radiant drops his armor, which then reduces his strength and allows the Mistborn to rip his head off.  Chromium may not work in this case, as we're giving them infinite Stormlight, but I'm having trouble seeing how the Radiant could fight this off.  Plate only gives so much strength.  The surges would be the tipping points, especially Elsecallers, being able to shift to the Cognitive Realm, and then Soulcast whatever they need to from there, but the others?  I'm sure some would do fairly well, but the is at least an even match, depending on the Order being fought.

 

Now lets give them no investiture.  No metals and no stormlight.  This one's easy.  Radiant wins, because they still have their blades and without Metals, a Mistborn is just a man. I'm assuming Living Plate still needs Stormlight to work.  

 

But with an equal, yet limited, amount of each of their Investiture, I believe that Chromium tips the balance towards Mistborn, as they'll be able to drain that investiture faster than their own investiture drains.  Yes, they need touch, but every love tap drains a little more.  Then they just need to survive until the Radiant's Stormlight wears out.

 

Oddly enough, I think a Feruchemist Warrior would fair better against a Knight Radiant.  They could have their own version of Plate Armor made up of different metals that double as Metalminds, and since they're metal minds, the Shardblades wouldn't be able to cut through them as easily.  That negates the advantage of the Blade.  They'd also have healing, strength, speed and all the rest.  Mistborn have Bendalloy to counter, albeit briefly, a Feruchemist's speed, but a Radiant doesn't.  Tapping speed and strength, wearing Feruchemical Armor, and the only way the Knight wins is if he can stay away and use ranged attacks.  Heck, Feruchemical Armor basically mimics Shardplate.  

 

Here's a new battle for you: A Fullborn vs a Herald.  That would be an interesting match.

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

They are also a bit faster and stronger then normal humans and Vasher seems to indicate that they have a low level healing factor. 

Because of perception leading to their size and physical well-being, yes, but few of them utilize their new physicality for martial purposes.

I don't remember any instance of mild healing factor, if it's that low it may have some survival advantages but little combat advantages.

[Karger]

49 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I don't remember any instance of mild healing factor, if it's that low it may have some survival advantages but little combat advantages.

Its a bit like pewter.  It helps your body make new blood and repair itself.

[Honorless]

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Its a bit like pewter.  It helps your body make new blood and repair itself.

source?

[Bigmikey357]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That and if the illusion is wearing any metal (buttons, belt, armor ...) there will be no metal lines.

They also have a sensory advantage due to tin, bronze, atium and electrum. They also have an advantage in stealth and blending in. Shard Plate or a Blade are kind of obvious. Also, they glow. Mistborn are assassins. The Knights Radiant are soldiers.

Indeed. Slugging it out is not a viable option, unless we are talking about a Radiant without a blade.

Or to use ambush and surprise. A Radiant cannot stay in plate forever. Striking while he is tending to certain bodily needs is a possible option.

Right, but you can still track on the negative. If that illusion looks like it is using Stormlight, but you "hear" nothing, that is an illusion.

I am afraid that is already the basic mistake. Swinging a shard blade against a single opponent not in Plate makes little sense. You have a vorpal edge and massive length, almost like a light sabre but longer. Use them. Run them through with a thrust.

 

In most of these battle questions the terrain is not specified. And without that we can list only factors. And that is no good for a final judgement. For example, is this a populated city where the mistborn can just walk by and strike by surprise? And abandoned city full of metal objects?
An open savanna without any metals but what the Mistborn carries? Is there enough water around so that the Mistborn can just wait for an opponent to run out of Stormlight without death from thirst?

For most groups in the Cosmere a Mistborn will be able to kill their opponents regardless of terrain or other factors. As for the groups of people they cannot win against terrain isn't much of a factor either. They cannot beat a Fullborn or inquisitor with F-gold, they cannot beat an Elantrian on their home turf, they can't beat a Herald, I don't know what they'd even do with a Level IV Biochromatic entity and my guess is that the higher the Heightening of the Awakener,  the less effective a Mistborn's bag of tricks will be. That leaves Radiants for us to ponder over. 

I can see that there would be some terrain and situations that would favor a Mistborn over a Radiant,  some strategies that would work well against one order or another.  Of course that takes knowledge,  surveillance, things of the like. They'd hardly need bronze to determine what type of knight they're dealing with; surges are flashy. But much of their advantage in subterfuge is negated by spren serving as a early warning system, one that the Mistborn cannot possibly detect. Can a Mistborn beat a Radiant in spy vs spy if the spren is on high alert?

My guess is that the Radiant kills the Mistborn in many more scenarios than the reverse.  The edge gets closer with the use of primer cubes, guns and Atium in the Mistborn's favor, but they still must play a guessing game initially as to what type of Radiant they deal with. All a Radiant needs to do is identify the Mistborn,  and I'm assuming a spren looking into the CR will be able to do that no problem. 

I guess what it boils down to for me is that too many factors have to be in the Mistborn column for them to have a chance. I mean if the Mistborn had a pocket full of primer cubes and several vials of metals on hand including a bunch of Atium and a couple Vindicators  and knowledge of the exact surges they'll have to combat and the element of surprise they might have a shot of killing a Radiant with living armor and blade. Meanwhile if Mistborn and Radiant happened to meet up in the street the Radiant beats him 8 or 9 times outta 10.

I agree that the full Feruchemist would fare better against the Radiant and also that a Fullborn beats the brains outta a Herald. 

[Karger]

44 minutes ago, Honorless said:

source?

In the annotations it mentions that Vasher is "saving his strength" but I guess we don't have a good source for it.

[Truthless of Shinovar]

4 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Here's a new battle for you: A Fullborn vs a Herald.  That would be an interesting match.

Fullborn wins. Every time, no question about it. I think there was actually a thread a couple pages back about that scenario.

[+Oltux72]

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Only when a mistborn is burning metals at that time and even then they can be soulcasted. WoB for that. As i said earlier, soulcast away the vials of metals leaving the mistborn with only what was ingested.

And those he has deposited. If he is carrying everything on his person, he will have earned his death. And if

1. The Radiant manages to locate the Mistborn
2. The Mistborn doesn't use vials made from aluminium

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Can still affect people from the cognitive realm. See the deleted scene of jasnah soulcasting away ropes from the cognitive realm. As i said. Soulcast away extra metals. Transport to the cogntive realm.  Let existing metals run out. Soulcast mistborn away. If the mistborn stops burning metals to conserve, then accomplishes the same goal. A mistborn not burning metals is as easy to soulcast away as a normal person. WoB back that up

The Mistborn would retreat. A Radiant in the CR has to walk. That scenario would end in a draw.

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I would use illusions to confuse the environment while making constructs to help me fight

That raises a question. How much does tin enhance your sense of smell? Can a Lightweaver fake that?

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

For most groups in the Cosmere a Mistborn will be able to kill their opponents regardless of terrain or other factors. As for the groups of people they cannot win against terrain isn't much of a factor either.

Jungle, caves, built up terrain, especially at night.

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

They'd hardly need bronze to determine what type of knight they're dealing with; surges are flashy.

Can you track use for endurance and healing?

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

But much of their advantage in subterfuge is negated by spren serving as a early warning system, one that the Mistborn cannot possibly detect. Can a Mistborn beat a Radiant in spy vs spy if the spren is on high alert?

How mobile are spren and can you sense them with bronze?

 

[Bigmikey357]

52 minutes ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

Fullborn wins. Every time, no question about it. I think there was actually a thread a couple pages back about that scenario.

There was. And Fullborn are incredibly OP. In fact I'm not sure if all 10 Heralds together could take one on and win. 

[+Oltux72]

46 minutes ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

Fullborn wins. Every time, no question about it. I think there was actually a thread a couple pages back about that scenario.

If you wabt that match to be interesting, put him against the bearer of Yelig-Nar.

[Zinc_compounder]

6 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

 They cannot beat a Fullborn or inquisitor with F-gold

 

See Kelsier vs Inquisitor fight. Though, on that note, it seems not a lot of the people here have thought over that option and his tactics there. It's effective against Gavilar with dead plate and blade, with larger pieces, in the WoK prologue, and similarly against Kaladin with the Fused in Thaylen City. They can overwhelm pretty easily, and confuse.

 

It also seems Rioting and Soothing could be used more in combat to aggravate or just confuse the opponent, and could be effective against broken Radiants.

[Bigmikey357]

13 minutes ago, Zinc_compounder said:

 

See Kelsier vs Inquisitor fight. Though, on that note, it seems not a lot of the people here have thought over that option and his tactics there. It's effective against Gavilar with dead plate and blade, with larger pieces, in the WoK prologue, and similarly against Kaladin with the Fused in Thaylen City. They can overwhelm pretty easily, and confuse.

 

It also seems Rioting and Soothing could be used more in combat to aggravate or just confuse the opponent, and could be effective against broken Radiants.

First, that was a limited Inquisitor,  not one of the Ruin modified ones. Those guys only had Allomancy spikes and so were only slightly better than the average Mistborn. Second,  Kelsier was a genius with Iron and Steel, possessing a skill that only Vin, The Ascendant Warrior herself,  could approach.  Three, even for Kelsier the first tactic was always to run rather than face an inquisitor.

As far as using that tactic against a Radiant,  overwhelming them isn't quite as easy as all that. And most of the surges can counter that rain of steel to a greater or lesser degree. The emotional allomancy would probably work better considering how spren choose Radiants,  but then again they could be fortified against such tampering due to Spren merging their Spirit web with their Radiant. 

@Oltux72

Tin augments all physical senses equally. But the surge of Illumination can cover both sight and sound. Moments matter in battle; if I can distract you with a sound or maybe an image flickering out the corner of your eye, or make you flinch with an intense light or sound I can gain a fatal advantage. 

For mobility and range of Spren, see Kaladin and Syl in the war camps. A-Bronze could sense them maybe,  but the guy has to be at least proficient at it as Marsh was, and likely much better since they'd be sensing something in a foriegn magic system.

[Zinc_compounder]

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

As far as using that tactic against a Radiant,  overwhelming them isn't quite as easy as all that. And most of the surges can counter that rain of steel to a greater or lesser degree. The emotional allomancy would probably work better considering how spren choose Radiants,  but then again they could be fortified against such tampering due to Spren merging their Spirit web with their Radiant. 

I'll have to go through this order by order, but as evidenced in Kaladin's fight against the Fused and Amaram, when he's focusing on Amaram, he gets smacked around by the Fused. Which means it could work as a tactic if executed quickly, and the Mistborn came in for the kill before the Radiant figured out how to combat it, as most could easily.

For example, Kaladin couldn't lash the Fused easily as they were living, but simple metal wouldn't be a problem. Dustbringers could just blast it all, Skybreakers could do either. Edgedancer could perhaps slip below or around the fire, but it would be a challenge. Lightweavers and Truthwatchers could just confuse them with illusions and stop the assault, but they do have the steel lines, which means it wouldn't be as big of a challenge. Lightweavers and Elsecallers could just soulcast, it's just metal. Willshapers or stonewards could just melt it, rendering it useless, and Bondsmiths . . . stick the pieces to each other with adhesion, perhaps? I don't know if tension would help with hard metal. This, of course, assumes they can think fast enough and the Mistborn escalates slow enough for them to put it into play. Because if they just strike with a blade, we have the Gavilar scenario of cutting somthing in half to get hit now by two things, or the Kaladin of losing track and getting bashed over the head.

And if those don't happen, with this assault type, the potential failures are only Truthwatchers, Edgedancers, and Bondsmiths.

 

As for your second point, it depends on the Radiant, order, Spren, and progression. If you blanked all Kaladin's emotions at this point, he'd end up panicked with the coming back of the wretch and apathy. Shallan's emotionally volatile. Lift is impulsive still, could yank her around. Szeth and Dalinar just have problems, that if you knew about, you could destroy them with. Maybe not Dalinar after Oathbringer now, though, but during definitely.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Zinc_compounder
Forgot to answer second part