Mistborn vs Else

[Tglassy]

I don't mean Elsecallers, I mean any one master of any one other magical art.

 

This may be assumed, but in a fight between a Mistborn with a good stocking of vials filled with every metal, and literally anything else, I'm probably going to have to put my money on the Mistborn.  There are a lot of reasons for this.  

 

The first is the sheer versatility of their powers.  They can push and pull on emotions, metals, time, and enhance their senses and physical abilities.  They can't heal like a Knight Radiant or Feruchemist, they aren't immortal like an Awakener of the 5th heightening, but I mean geez.  The number of things they can do is pretty astounding.

 

The second reason is Duralamin, in conjunction of all of those abilities.  Duralamin and Steel can push even Hemalurgic Spikes embedded within a body, which, to me, means a Duralamin enhanced Steel push can potentially push on Shardplate/blades.  They can take literal control of almost anything with enough Hemalurgic Spikes embedded in them.  Heck, that would be a great way to gain minions.  Spike them three times each, and then override their minds.  Not to mention a Duralamin enhanced Pewter flare could potentially let them break Shardplate.  I mean, it let Vin explode some guy's head with a head-butt.  

 

The last reason I'm going to go in to is Chromium.  Burning Chromium allows you to drain Investiture.   All kinds of Investiture.  Leacher Mistings can burn Chromium.  So can Mistborn.  So on top of all the abilities I mentioned above, a Mistborn against ANY of the other kinds of magic will win.  Pretty much period.  Because they'll just drain the person's power, and then punch them in the face.  I suppose they'd have to touch them first, but they can burn Copper, hiding their power from others who can sense them, and there would be no visible indication of them using it, like Stormlight or the bending of light around an Awakener.  

 

I suppose an Awakener of the 10th heightening could cause some damage, as most of their power is ranged.  But then, no, because the Mistborn could just use Chromium to leach the Breath from any Awakened object that touches them, and once they touch the Awakener, they'd leach the rest of their power.  

 

So yeah.  Mistborn for the win.  Out of all of them, I pick Mistborn.  Or a Chromium Compounding Twinborn.  Insta-win against any enemy, plus infinite Fortune?  Check, please!

 

Does anyone know of anything that could take on a Mistborn with a good supply of metals?

Edited December 27, 2019 by Tglassy

[Honorless]

Aside from a Fullborn Compounder? Surgebinders are the only ones who come close

[Bigmikey357]

A run of the mill Mistborn gets smoked by any Radiant with Plate and Blade. Sure they're versatile, but the can't heal. And their range advantage cannot break through Shardplate without duraluminun. A Radiant tanks 3 or 4 of those pushes and the Mistborn is going to eventually run out of metal. Plus, a Mistborn without metal is a normal human. A Radiant without Stormlight still has a blade that cuts souls.

A Full Feruchemist with fully stocked metal metalminds likely kills a full Mistborn more than half the time too. At that point though it comes down to the skill level of the combatants. 

[Karger]

Assuming they have a large number of metal reserves feruchemists beet mistborn any day.  Steelrun decapitation.  Sand Mastery works too.  A good few punctures.  Even a really powerful awakener can find a good solution if they have prep time.  Also aluminum bullets and a sniper riffle.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[ftl]

Atium is a big trump card here. With a good supply of atium to see the near future, mistborn obviously wins pretty easily against anyone - dodge anything, aim attacks directly at where the enemy will be in the future.

[+ILuvHats]

Barring Atium, I don't think Mistborn are that OP. Sure, they're powerful, and even in one-on-one open combat, I think they could easily give Knights Radiant a run for their money, depending on the experience/talent of each as well as the particular order of Knights. I'd probably give the win to orders focused on military training, while mistborn have a slight edge against other orders. Particularly in the case of Elsecallers, I get the feeling that people think they're incredible fighters because soulcasting, duh. I just think Jasnah is incredibly talented with it, and most Elsecallers or Lightweavers won't come close to her skill in combat, particularly with the steep price in Stormlight necessary to use Transformation. I mean look at Shallan. She's crap at soulcasting.

Except for an extremely rare set of Awakeners with vast stores of Breath and centuries of practice with Awakening and combat, I think Mistborn trump Awakeners almost every time. Unless we want to include Awakened blades, but they're insanely rare, and I assume we're pitting relatively average magic users against each other.

It's been a while since I've read White Sand, but from memory, I think Sand Masters are a bit unfavored against Mistborn. They can essentially fly and have ranged attacks using tendrils of sand, but lack physical enhancements and all of Allomancy's other little tricks. Of course, the fight's only close as long as it's on the light side of Taldain.

Nobody on Sel can compete with Mistborn except an Elantrian near Elantris. In this case, I think the Elantrian would wipe the floor. Elantrians are so versatile and so powerful, especially considering most of them have lived for centuries, so if they've focused on combat, they are absolutely deadly. 

Feruchemists would probably win simply because of F-steel and F-gold. Combined with pewter, it takes only a moment to crush the Mistborn's skull in. A prepared Mistborn might be able to stall by keeping in the air until the Feruchemist's store of F-steel is gone, but the Feruchemist is definitely heavily favored if both combatants are skilled fighters.

[Dancer]

A lot of these match ups come down to the skill of the individual combatants. If an Elsecaller is as skilled as Jasnah and has enough Stormlight then I don't care who you are, you are going to be Soulcast. Fortunately for everyone else as stated above that level of skill is rare. Elantirans close to Elantris who have even the most rudimentary training in drawing Aon's is going to defeat anyone trying to attack them as was shown by Raoden. Very skilled Mistborn have a slew of abilities like steel sight, leeching any type of Investiture and as Brandon has confirmed being able to anchor speed bubbles around them allowing for F-steel speeds. If they were smart they would also use emotional Allomancy as a weapon making their opponents have huge mood swings like crippling depression to intense fear to overwhelming joy mid fight. Obviously your run of the mill Mistborn is not this skilled and would most likely lose to a full Feruchemist 6-7/10. 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Dancer

[Honorless]

Full Feruchemists would have a chance too

Edit: why do people always seem to forget them in v/s debates?

Edited December 27, 2019 by Honorless

[Tglassy]

The main issue I have with most of that is Chromium.  I can't see how any Knight Radiant could win against a Mistborn, regardless of their combat training, if the Mistborn has Chromium.  I read in the Wiki that Chromium can even interfere with a Knight summoning their blade.  Yes, a Mistborn without metals is human, but so is a Knight without Stormlight and without a blade.  If a Mistborn could get close, and with Bendalloy they could, they could even drain the Stormlight from their Plate, causing it to lock up (not sure how Knight Radiant Plate works yet, but this would work on normal Plate.)

 

As for Feruchemists, yeah, Steel is great, though it is an incredibly difficult attribute to store up.  But assuming each combatant had a massive supply of all the different Investitures they have access to, and assuming the Feruchemist tries to come at him with Speed first thing, the Mistborn just burns Bendalloy to give himself a moment to think, then burns Steel+Duralamin to push the Feruchemist's metal minds, the same way Vin did to the Inquisitor's spikes (just listened to that scene.  She did it with just Duralamin, before drawing on the mists).  Even if the Feruchemist increased his strength and weight to the point where the enhanced Steel Push couldn't move him, it would move the Mistborn away from him, and cause him to use up a massive amount of his strength and weight to do so, if it didn't straight up rip the metal minds from the Feruchemist's body.  Distance is the Mistborn's friend.

 

And if Chromium can leach the Investiture from a Metalmind, the Feruchemist is toast.  

 

Sand Masters might be able to do some stuff.  Though, the Investiture is in the Sand, so Chromium would just Leach the power from any ribbons the Sand Master sent at him.  Chromium is the ultimate trump card when dealing with others who can use Investiture.  

 

I had forgotten about an Elantrian.  Near Elantris, they'd be near unstoppable.  Not sure how Chromium would affect them, considering their connection to the Dor.  

[Elegy]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

The main issue I have with most of that is Chromium.  I can't see how any Knight Radiant could win against a Mistborn, regardless of their combat training, if the Mistborn has Chromium.  I read in the Wiki that Chromium can even interfere with a Knight summoning their blade.  Yes, a Mistborn without metals is human, but so is a Knight without Stormlight and without a blade.  If a Mistborn could get close, and with Bendalloy they could, they could even drain the Stormlight from their Plate, causing it to lock up (not sure how Knight Radiant Plate works yet, but this would work on normal Plate.)

Fair point, but Chromium requires physical contact to work, so I don't think it would help them much against Windrunners and Skybreakers, and Dustbringers and Edgedancers are going to be a problem as well.

[Bigmikey357]

There are 2 issues with Chromium.  Physical contact and time. Even if I were to touch you to leech, it's going to take a few seconds to drain you at least. And if I'm close enough to touch that means you're close enough to hit me back. I am quite sure that I don't want to be anywhere close to a Plated individual without a healing factor.  One punch and I'm dead. 

[StanLemon]

12 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

There are 2 issues with Chromium.  Physical contact and time. Even if I were to touch you to leech, it's going to take a few seconds to drain you at least. And if I'm close enough to touch that means you're close enough to hit me back. I am quite sure that I don't want to be anywhere close to a Plated individual without a healing factor.  One punch and I'm dead. 

The one time we have seen a Chromium Leaching in the books, it was pretty much instantaneous. 

Chromium would be incredibly dangerous to a Radiant. The issue as said though is that even without Stormlight, a Radiant still has a shapeshifting soul cutting weapon so the Mistborn would be putting themselves at a big risk to do that.

[+Quazzi]

12 hours ago, Honorless said:

Aside from a Fullborn Compounder? Surgebinders are the only ones who come close

Agreed. With a Radiants’ plate and blade being so invested a Mistborn would have trouble with push and pulls plus as we know a shardblade is basically a one hit kill. Do we have any wob’s on if plate would have any protection from emotional Allomancy? That could possibly be a way a Mistborn might be able to get the upper hand on a Radiant. 

[Pathfinder]

 

12 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Assuming they have a large number of metal reserves feruchemists beet mistborn any day.  Steelrun decapitation.  Sand Mastery works too.  A good few punctures.  Even a really powerful awakener can find a good solution if they have prep time.  Also aluminum bullets and a sniper riffle.

I agree on feruchemy. Disagree on Sand mastery, but I respond to that later. I do agree awakeners could potentially accomplish more than what people say, but I still think it would be a difficult fight for them. 

11 hours ago, Ooklidean Geometry said:

Barring Atium, I don't think Mistborn are that OP. Sure, they're powerful, and even in one-on-one open combat, I think they could easily give Knights Radiant a run for their money, depending on the experience/talent of each as well as the particular order of Knights. I'd probably give the win to orders focused on military training, while mistborn have a slight edge against other orders. Particularly in the case of Elsecallers, I get the feeling that people think they're incredible fighters because soulcasting, duh. I just think Jasnah is incredibly talented with it, and most Elsecallers or Lightweavers won't come close to her skill in combat, particularly with the steep price in Stormlight necessary to use Transformation. I mean look at Shallan. She's crap at soulcasting.

What Jasnah can do with soulcasting is common for Elsecallers. Lightweavers are not as proficient, but if they were to focus on it, they could theoretically attain the same level of proficiency (WoB confirms). I think the biggest step an elsecaller would take when fighting a mistborn is soulcasting all the vials of metal to smoke, so all the mistborn has is whatever metal they were able to swallow in that time. Then the elscaller can just keep away from the mistborn in the cogntive realm till the metals run out, and soulcast the mistborn directly. Lightweavers I think would do even better. Illusions, potentially physical constructs, lasers, and so on are pretty epic. If it wasn't for elsecallers being so cool for me with their teleportation and transformation, my next pick would be lightweavers for favorite order. 

11 hours ago, Ooklidean Geometry said:

Except for an extremely rare set of Awakeners with vast stores of Breath and centuries of practice with Awakening and combat, I think Mistborn trump Awakeners almost every time. Unless we want to include Awakened blades, but they're insanely rare, and I assume we're pitting relatively average magic users against each other.

I agree

11 hours ago, Ooklidean Geometry said:

It's been a while since I've read White Sand, but from memory, I think Sand Masters are a bit unfavored against Mistborn. They can essentially fly and have ranged attacks using tendrils of sand, but lack physical enhancements and all of Allomancy's other little tricks. Of course, the fight's only close as long as it's on the light side of Taldain.

I agree

11 hours ago, Ooklidean Geometry said:

Nobody on Sel can compete with Mistborn except an Elantrian near Elantris. In this case, I think the Elantrian would wipe the floor. Elantrians are so versatile and so powerful, especially considering most of them have lived for centuries, so if they've focused on combat, they are absolutely deadly. 

I agree

11 hours ago, Ooklidean Geometry said:

Feruchemists would probably win simply because of F-steel and F-gold. Combined with pewter, it takes only a moment to crush the Mistborn's skull in. A prepared Mistborn might be able to stall by keeping in the air until the Feruchemist's store of F-steel is gone, but the Feruchemist is definitely heavily favored if both combatants are skilled fighters.

I agree.

10 hours ago, Dancer said:

A lot of these match ups come down to the skill of the individual combatants. If an Elsecaller is as skilled as Jasnah and has enough Stormlight then I don't care who you are, you are going to be Soulcast. Fortunately for everyone else as stated above that level of skill is rare. Elantirans close to Elantris who have even the most rudimentary training in drawing Aon's is going to defeat anyone trying to attack them as was shown by Raoden. Very skilled Mistborn have a slew of abilities like steel sight, leeching any type of Investiture and as Brandon has confirmed being able to anchor speed bubbles around them allowing for F-steel speeds. If they were smart they would also use emotional Allomancy as a weapon making their opponents have huge mood swings like crippling depression to intense fear to overwhelming joy mid fight. Obviously your run of the mill Mistborn is not this skilled and would most likely lose to a full Feruchemist 6-7/10. 

My one tidbit to add in here, is ranged soulcasting that Jasnah did, is something any elsecaller can do (WoB confirm). A lightweaver if they really try can eventually learn to do it too. So the skill we have seen Jasnah demonstrate with soulcasting is normal for Elsecallers. 

3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

The main issue I have with most of that is Chromium.  I can't see how any Knight Radiant could win against a Mistborn, regardless of their combat training, if the Mistborn has Chromium.  I read in the Wiki that Chromium can even interfere with a Knight summoning their blade.  Yes, a Mistborn without metals is human, but so is a Knight without Stormlight and without a blade.  If a Mistborn could get close, and with Bendalloy they could, they could even drain the Stormlight from their Plate, causing it to lock up (not sure how Knight Radiant Plate works yet, but this would work on normal Plate.)

The preventing of summoning the blade requires constant contact. I think that would be problematic up close to certain radiants. Though atium would certainly help. 

3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

As for Feruchemists, yeah, Steel is great, though it is an incredibly difficult attribute to store up.  But assuming each combatant had a massive supply of all the different Investitures they have access to, and assuming the Feruchemist tries to come at him with Speed first thing, the Mistborn just burns Bendalloy to give himself a moment to think, then burns Steel+Duralamin to push the Feruchemist's metal minds, the same way Vin did to the Inquisitor's spikes (just listened to that scene.  She did it with just Duralamin, before drawing on the mists).  Even if the Feruchemist increased his strength and weight to the point where the enhanced Steel Push couldn't move him, it would move the Mistborn away from him, and cause him to use up a massive amount of his strength and weight to do so, if it didn't straight up rip the metal minds from the Feruchemist's body.  Distance is the Mistborn's friend.

using bendalloy would only result in seeing the feruchemist running normal speed if the feruchemist is tapping speed. We see this occur in the Wax and Wayne series. The only reason it worked so well is Bleeder was cocky that Wax couldn't do anything, and didn't notice the bubble till it was too late. Now having said that, I agree the other abilties of a mistborn would help them avoid a ferchemist long enough for the supplies to get exhausted. 

3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

And if Chromium can leach the Investiture from a Metalmind, the Feruchemist is toast.  

We know they can, though the feruchemist has to be tapping it at the time making it kinetic. You cannot leach a metal mind not being used. 

3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Sand Masters might be able to do some stuff.  Though, the Investiture is in the Sand, so Chromium would just Leach the power from any ribbons the Sand Master sent at him.  Chromium is the ultimate trump card when dealing with others who can use Investiture.  

I agree. The mistborn would just have to dodge a ribbon with atium, or just pewter enhanced muscles, and then stick a leeching hand into the stream

3 hours ago, Tglassy said:

I had forgotten about an Elantrian.  Near Elantris, they'd be near unstoppable.  Not sure how Chromium would affect them, considering their connection to the Dor.  

Not sure either. Perhaps they would destroy the aon from maintaining? That is what would happen if you used nightblood on an aon. 

1 hour ago, Elegy said:

Fair point, but Chromium requires physical contact to work, so I don't think it would help them much against Windrunners and Skybreakers, and Dustbringers and Edgedancers are going to be a problem as well.

I agree. 

30 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

There are 2 issues with Chromium.  Physical contact and time. Even if I were to touch you to leech, it's going to take a few seconds to drain you at least. And if I'm close enough to touch that means you're close enough to hit me back. I am quite sure that I don't want to be anywhere close to a Plated individual without a healing factor.  One punch and I'm dead. 

I agree, though atium would assist in dodging up close. But I still agree with you, physical closeness against a radiant would be difficult for a mistborn. 

13 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The one time we have seen a Chromium Leaching in the books, it was pretty much instantaneous. 

Chromium would be incredibly dangerous to a Radiant. The issue as said though is that even without Stormlight, a Radiant still has a shapeshifting soul cutting weapon so the Mistborn would be putting themselves at a big risk to do that.

We have WoB stating if you wanted to leecher someone compounding, you would have to maintain the hold for some time. So leeching is not always instantaneous. It depends on the volume of investiture that you are leeching. 

[StanLemon]

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

We have WoB stating if you wanted to leecher someone compounding, you would have to maintain the hold for some time. So leeching is not always instantaneous. It depends on the volume of investiture that you are leeching. 

Could you provide that WoB? I haven't  seen it before and I'm having trouble finding it. Though I doubt a Radiant holds much more than to take a second.

Also I found this, so if the Radiant didn't already have their blade out they would be in trouble.

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Leecher was holding a Shardbearer and burning [chromium], would the Shardbearer be able to summon their Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No

[Pathfinder]

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Could you provide that WoB? I haven't  seen it before and I'm having trouble finding it. Though I doubt a Radiant holds much more than to take a second.

No problem. Here you go:

 

Kaymyth

I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings.

Brandon Sanderson

What it boils down to is this:

1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off.

2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds.

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015)

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Also I found this, so if the Radiant didn't already have their blade out they would be in trouble.

 

That is regarding a shardbearer, not radiant. Not saying it would not have the same effect, but the mistborn would need to get close, get a grip, and leech the stormlight away before they could affect the spren blade. As per the order the WoB I just posted above. 

[Karger]

20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I agree. The mistborn would just have to dodge a ribbon with atium, or just pewter enhanced muscles, and then stick a leeching hand into the stream

You can disrupt a sand stream just by putting your hand through it.  This would not stop a sand master putting you under a wall of sand like Kenton's father and Atium won't help in that case because you can't exactly duck.  I agree that they are not favored to win this particular mach up but I would take a 3 to 7 bet if I knew that the sand master involved was good.

20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I agree

 

11 hours ago, Ooklidean Geometry said:

Except for an extremely rare set of Awakeners with vast stores of Breath and centuries of practice with Awakening and combat, I think Mistborn trump Awakeners almost every time. Unless we want to include Awakened blades, but they're insanely rare, and I assume we're pitting relatively average magic users against each other.

We really don't know what average awakeners are like but if one had just a hundred breath and prepped for the fight well I would favor them.  You could make lifeless specifically designed to counter mistborn.

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

That is regarding a shardbearer, not radiant. Not saying it would not have the same effect, but the mistborn would need to get close, get a grip, and leech the stormlight away before they could affect the spren blade. As per the order the WoB I just posted above. 

They would also have to get a grip on someone in shardplate.  Good luck making that work.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

You can disrupt a sand stream just by putting your hand through it.  This would not stop a sand master putting you under a wall of sand like Kenton's father and Atium won't help in that case because you can't exactly duck.  I agree that they are not favored to win this particular mach up but I would take a 3 to 7 bet if I knew that the sand master involved was good.

Went over this in the white sand thread awhile back. People, without any abilities nor powers are capable of dodging sand master ribbons. If a sand master ribbon touches terkin, it is immediately turned dull. All force of the sand attack is negated. Otherwise the armor would have still been harmed. There are multiple examples of an arrow of sand being launched at a terkin covered person, and the ribbon just go dull. All it would take is for a ribbon to touch a mistborn burning chromium for it to go dull. Killing those ribbons would also drain the sand master of moisture potentially killing him or her. 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Went over this in the white sand thread awhile back. People, without any abilities nor powers are capable of dodging sand master ribbons. If a sand master ribbon touches terkin, it is immediately turned dull. All force of the sand attack is negated. Otherwise the armor would have still been harmed. There are multiple examples of an arrow of sand being launched at a terkin covered person, and the ribbon just go dull. All it would take is for a ribbon to touch a mistborn burning chromium for it to go dull. 

You can't duck the massive wall of sand the Paxton? Praxton? buries the entire army in.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[Pathfinder]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

You can't duck the massive wall of sand the Paxton? Praxton? berries the entire army in.

That would require the same circumstance as an Elantrian. You would have to have both combatants on the planet of white sand to have that much sand to use, and that wouldn't stop a mistborn from flying out of the way and just gracing the giant ribbon with a touch. 

But let us say what you present works. The sand master would be dead because he or she would be completely drained of moisture when the ribbon was drained of investiture. The mistborn with pewter could theoretically dig themselves out with pewter, holding their breath longer due to the extra durability and stamina from pewter. 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Pathfinder

[StanLemon]

I think the biggest thing to address with this conversation that we aren't taking into account the field of battle. In a straightforward fight? Almost certainly the Radiant. The thing to remember with mistborn though is that they fight best outside the box. It would come down a lot to how creative and adaptable the mistborn is. I don't think there is a clear truly clear answer. But I can see mistborn beating Radiants in a fight, just as I can see Radiants powering through a mistborn. 

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

The one time we have seen a Chromium Leaching in the books, it was pretty much instantaneous. 

Chromium would be incredibly dangerous to a Radiant. The issue as said though is that even without Stormlight, a Radiant still has a shapeshifting soul cutting weapon so the Mistborn would be putting themselves at a big risk to do that.

You're referring to the allomantic grenade scene I'm assuming.  Thing is, we don't really know if that was instantaneous.  The cube was activated and a few moments later Wax tried to use his metals and they were gone. It was quick but I don't think it was instant. 

Then we have the WOB that says Chromium burns quickly. So a burst of it may not leech away all investiture.  A Radiant in living Shardplate is one of the most invested entities in the Cosmere.  Only a Fullborn or a 5th + Heightening Awakener has more. So if you're a Leecher you'd better make absolutely sure you have enough time and fuel before stepping in range of a Radiant.  

Atium is also a game changer, but Radiants can do range attacks too. Ranged Soulcasting for Elsecallers, gravity propelled projectile tosses for Windrunners, whatever crazy things Dustbringers can manage, Lightweavers and lasers (when they discover them), Stonewards and Willshapers liquefying the ground,  and every one of them with the strength, speed and dexterity at least equivalent to the average Thug. 

Radiant, particularly 3+ Oaths,  breaks average Mistborn. 

[+ILuvHats]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

What Jasnah can do with soulcasting is common for Elsecallers. Lightweavers are not as proficient, but if they were to focus on it, they could theoretically attain the same level of proficiency (WoB confirms). I think the biggest step an elsecaller would take when fighting a mistborn is soulcasting all the vials of metal to smoke, so all the mistborn has is whatever metal they were able to swallow in that time. Then the elscaller can just keep away from the mistborn in the cogntive realm till the metals run out, and soulcast the mistborn directly. Lightweavers I think would do even better. Illusions, potentially physical constructs, lasers, and so on are pretty epic. If it wasn't for elsecallers being so cool for me with their teleportation and transformation, my next pick would be lightweavers for favorite order. 

Quote

I’m aware that Elsecallers are more proficient at soulcasting than Lightweavers. Perhaps I shouldn’t have compared Shallan to Jasnah. Personally, I think that Jasnah is an exceptional user of Transformation, even for an Elsecaller. After all, she’s exceptional at everything else, so why not at using that surge? Another part of the reason for my belief is that otherwise, Elsecallers seem so OP it’s ridiculous. An Elsecaller with Jasnah’s skill with Transformation plus control and practice with Transportation could OTK every other order unless their opponent is really experienced with their powers or they flee. So my head canon is that soulcasting is a lot harder than we’ve seen, and that not even all Elsecallers ever attained the skill needed for ranged soulcasting. Perhaps Brandon intends for the high stormlight cost to be Transformation’s limiting factor instead, but even so, Elsecallers are extremely powerful. If there’s a WoB that contradicts my head canon, please share it. 

And I might as well share who I think would win for each Order, so here we go.

- Windrunner vs Mistborn

Windrunner wins because more flexible flying, combat experience in a militant order, and uses of adhesion Kaladin hasn’t discovered but most Knights used to know.

- Skybreakers vs Mistborn

Skybreakers cuz of the same reasons as the Windrunners plus Division.

- Dustbringers vs Mistborn. 

If Division is ranged, Dustbringers win since they also have the maneuverability that comes with Abrasion.

- Edgedancers

Mistborn win because Edgedancers have no ranged attacks. 

- Truthwatchers vs Mistborn

Mistborn. Because again, no ranged attacks, even if they heal super quickly on top of armor and Blade. As for lightweaving, my impression has always been that lasers are a super advanced, theoretical application never used by Radiants before the Recreance. If there’s a WoB saying it’s been used to form lasers before, let me know. Otherwise, I’d rule lasers out. Also, simply creating illusions won’t win the combat, particularly since a Mistborn who knows what they’re doing can use bronze to distinguish the Truthwatcher between any illusions they create. 

- Lightweavers vs Mistborn

If the Lightweaver can use ranged Soulcasting, the Lightweaver wins.

- Elsecallers vs Mistborn.

Basically the same as Lightweavers, except more favored because Transportation is much more useful than illusions that the Allomancer could potentially see through. 

I don’t know who would win for Willshapers, Stonewards, and Bomdsmiths, since we haven’t seen two of them and the third is weird and unique. I’d probably favor Mistborn over Stonewards since Cohesion doesn’t seem particularly useful against aerial opponents and my gut instinct is that Tension seems about as useful as adhesion. Which is to say not very except in the case of advanced applications. 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

We really don't know what average awakeners are like but if one had just a hundred breath and prepped for the fight well I would favor them.  You could make lifeless specifically designed to counter mistborn.

What you’re proposing requires vast preparation, advanced knowledge of both Awakening and their opponent, as well as the willingness to permanently part with a lot of Breath, something I feel like most Awakeners are loathe to do. Also, Awakening is much more poorly understood than Allomancy considering the difficulty in amassing Breaths. I think you’re describing a borderline case, and I would still generally favor Mistborn. 

[Pathfinder]

38 minutes ago, Ooklidean Geometry said:

I’m aware that Elsecallers are more proficient at soulcasting than Lightweavers. Perhaps I shouldn’t have compared Shallan to Jasnah. Personally, I think that Jasnah is an exceptional user of Transformation, even for an Elsecaller. After all, she’s exceptional at everything else, so why not at using that surge? Another part of the reason for my belief is that otherwise, Elsecallers seem so OP it’s ridiculous. An Elsecaller with Jasnah’s skill with Transformation plus control and practice with Transportation could OTK every other order unless their opponent is really experienced with their powers or they flee. So my head canon is that soulcasting is a lot harder than we’ve seen, and that not even all Elsecallers ever attained the skill needed for ranged soulcasting. Perhaps Brandon intends for the high stormlight cost to be Transformation’s limiting factor instead, but even so, Elsecallers are extremely powerful. If there’s a WoB that contradicts my head canon, please share it. 

No problemo. Here it is:

Questioner

Is Jasnah being able to Soulcast at a distance the resonance of her two Surges or is that just a Radiant thing that's not with the fabrials. 

Brandon Sanderson

Jasnah's Order is better at that than others. It is not impossible that you could imagine a Lightweaver being able to do it.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Ranged soulcasting is just something Jasnah's order is better at. But anyone can learn to do it with training. 

 

edit: also a side note regarding the power creep:

Questioner

If I had any questions at all, I would say: ramp? Stormlight Archive, as it's going forward, like super power creep issues. The characters get so powerful so quickly, and it's gonna be a 10 (hopefully) book series.

Brandon Sanderson

Remember, it's two sets of five. And we will be... how about this. We're just gonna RAFO you now, because I'm being recorded. I'm not gonna give you any hints about the future. Just... I've got it in hand.

I was able to write three books about Rand al'Thor at the height of his power, so I'm pretty convinced I'll be okay.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

 

Quote

And I might as well share who I think would win for each Order, so here we go.

- Edgedancers

Mistborn win because Edgedancers have no ranged attacks. 

I dunno, abrasion preventing mistborn from pushing off anything, coupled with healing I think would be hard for mistborn to counter

Quote

- Truthwatchers vs Mistborn

Mistborn. Because again, no ranged attacks, even if they heal super quickly on top of armor and Blade.

I dunno, illusions coupled with cracked out healing? I have to give it to the truthwatchers. 

Quote

As for lightweaving, my impression has always been that lasers are a super advanced, theoretical application never used by Radiants before the Recreance. If there’s a WoB saying it’s been used to form lasers before, let me know. Otherwise, I’d rule lasers out. Also, simply creating illusions won’t win the combat, particularly since a Mistborn who knows what they’re doing can use bronze to distinguish the Truthwatcher between any illusions they create. 

- Lightweavers vs Mistborn

If the Lightweaver can use ranged Soulcasting, the Lightweaver wins.

I don't think we can rule out lasers, but this WoB does not explicitly say it was used in the past:

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

[Discussion of Lightweavers manipulating other forms of electromagnetic radiation]

But the ultimate form (That Brandon said would be too much to be practical both in needed stormlight and application) would be the control of Gamma Radiation. If this could be harnessed, Lightweavers could literally become mini nukes, or death guns. The biggest downside to making Gamma radiation would be the damage the lightweaver would most likely suffer. So gamma radiation is impractical but its a fun thought experiment. 

The best part of this whole speculation was how excited Brandon was about my train of thought. I don't know if anyone had brought up this train of thought before. But he was happy to remind me that things will get pretty interesting when Lightweavers discover lasers and start using them in combat.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 3, 2016)

Quote

- Elsecallers vs Mistborn.

Basically the same as Lightweavers, except more favored because Transportation is much more useful than illusions that the Allomancer could potentially see through. 

Already responded to this above. 

Quote

I don’t know who would win for Willshapers, Stonewards, and Bomdsmiths, since we haven’t seen two of them and the third is weird and unique. I’d probably favor Mistborn over Stonewards since Cohesion doesn’t seem particularly useful against aerial opponents and my gut instinct is that Tension seems about as useful as adhesion. Which is to say not very except in the case of advanced applications. 

Mistborn is only aerial if they have something solid to push on. Willshapers and Stonewards would change that. 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

44 minutes ago, Ooklidean Geometry said:

Mistborn win because Edgedancers have no ranged attacks. 

Edgedancers are also impossible to kill.

44 minutes ago, Ooklidean Geometry said:

If the Lightweaver can use ranged Soulcasting, the Lightweaver wins.

Not sure they even need to.  Just keep the Mistborn fighting duplicates of yourself and then sneak up behind them.  Also energy projection via illumination.

44 minutes ago, Ooklidean Geometry said:

Willshapers, Stonewards

Win.  Just sink them into the ground do the same to any metal they are pushing on.

44 minutes ago, Ooklidean Geometry said:

Bomdsmiths

Don't seem to have much in the way of combat moves.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But let us say what you present works. The sand master would be dead because he or she would be completely drained of moisture when the ribbon was drained of investiture. The mistborn with pewter could theoretically dig themselves out with pewter, holding their breath longer due to the extra durability and stamina from pewter. 

I assume they have a bottle of water or them.  Also even normally a smart sand master could use tendrils to mess with the coins the mistborn uses to hover.  The mistborn is going to have a hard time staying in the air.

44 minutes ago, Ooklidean Geometry said:

What you’re proposing requires vast preparation, advanced knowledge of both Awakening and their opponent, as well as the willingness to permanently part with a lot of Breath, something I feel like most Awakeners are loathe to do. Also, Awakening is much more poorly understood than Allomancy considering the difficulty in amassing Breaths. I think you’re describing a borderline case, and I would still generally favor Mistborn. 

I am assuming that everyone involved in these fights has time to research their opponent.  Otherwise to much is open to total chance in these fights.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific