Discovering Dustbringer ideals via Spensa(Starsight Spoilers!)

[+Oltux72]

On 31/12/2019 at 7:28 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

But she is not obedient to anyone.  In fact she is perfectly willing to go her own way.  At the beginning of Starsight she only questions her judgement when leaving not her authority or the necessity of carrying out her mission without any orders.  So no she is loyal to a verity of peoples but obedient she is not.

I think we are in violent agreement.

On 31/12/2019 at 7:28 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

They may be specialized but that does not make it true that all members of one order have the same specialty.  Their specialization comes from ideology and temperament not profession or tactical approach.

Well, it looks to me like a large majority of the Skybreakers are in law enforcement or support thereof. And oaths being similar for the whole order will need to be derived from typical role and attitudes. I don't see a split here. Form follows function.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

I think we are in violent agreement.

Explain your reasoning please.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, it looks to me like a large majority of the Skybreakers are in law enforcement or support thereof. And oaths being similar for the whole order will need to be derived from typical role and attitudes. I don't see a split here. Form follows function.

This is not true.  I can't find the WoB but Brandon has clearly stated that (for example) not all elsecallers were scholars some were soldiers who were careful and thoughtful.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Ookla the Prolific

[Elsecaller_17.5]

@Ookla the Prolific I'd love to see your take on truthwatchers and elsecallers if you find the time. I just finished starsight and I really like your takes on dustbringers!

I'd also like to hear your opinion on my pet theory for the 4th windrunner ideal "I will forgive myself for those I fail to protect" but that can probaly wait till you put out your predictive windrunner oaths.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Truthwatcher_17.5

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

I'd also like to hear your opinion on my pet theory for the 4th windrunner ideal "I will forgive myself for those I fail to protect" but that can probaly wait till you put out your predictive windrunner oaths.

I think I already did post on Windrunners somewhere and that you and I had different ideas of where it goes.  My standard radiant pastern theory indicates oath four is about trust as apposed to forgiveness.  It could also be neither or both.  It is just a theory of course.

PS I intend to do Truthwatcher after Willshaper.

[+Oltux72]

On 02/01/2020 at 3:20 AM, Ookla the Prolific said:

Explain your reasoning please.

At the core loyalty is a form of discrimination. You prefer your own side to the other side. Spensa has this, as well as a readiness to endanger herself for the community. That is distinct from doing what you are told.

On 02/01/2020 at 3:20 AM, Ookla the Prolific said:

This is not true.  I can't find the WoB but Brandon has clearly stated that (for example) not all elsecallers were scholars some were soldiers who were careful and thoughtful.

That was about who becomes an Elsecaller. But how does that help. Stereotypes and oaths will be common to the whole order. If the order has no common preference it does not matter. But if it has, exceptions will not matter.

[Karger]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

At the core loyalty is a form of discrimination

It can be but it can also be loyalty to an ideal.  Also this is an argument about weather or not she is obedient.  I am saying she is not.

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

But how does that help. Stereotypes and oaths will be common to the whole order. If the order has no common preference it does not matter. But if it has, exceptions will not matter.

Why not?  In this case function following form makes way more sense considering we are talking about ideals. 

[+Oltux72]

19 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

It can be but it can also be loyalty to an ideal.

Right. But again you value that ideal more than other possible ideals for reasons beyond rationality.

19 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

  Also this is an argument about weather or not she is obedient.  I am saying she is not.

So do I. She is not obedient.

19 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Why not?  In this case function following form makes way more sense considering we are talking about ideals. 

That really depends on what was first. If indeed something was first and we are not looking at a gradual adaption. We know that the oaths are a later adaption. So were the orders first or the oaths?

All we do know is that powers and ideals and jobs are often in agreement, most obviously for the Edgedancers and the Bondsmiths. The Dustbringers have an ability that is based on destruction and they are named for it. So we may assume that they attract the type that will use such powers and that their oaths reflect that.

[Karger]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

So we may assume that they attract the type that will use such powers and that their oaths reflect that.

Or that they attract the people who will be most restrained in the use of destructive power.  You could argue either way.  That is why I decided not to get hung up on the powers in the first place.

[Bigmikey357]

@Karger

Upon reading your theory and the Word of Issac it's difficult for me to refute.  Although Spensa does have an affinity for tinkering that's not quite a core personality trait for her. The abrasive personality seems much more in line with her Order. So maybe for me the characterization of a Dustbringer is one of purposeful engineering. They don't want knowledge to horde as many scholars do. They are only interested in practical knowledge, useful information to accomplishing goals or missions.  They're also more likely to have a gruff exterior and gooey center. Look at their gem archive entry.  And it's telling that they sit right next to Edgedancers on the double Eye. They are guarded with their feelings because they feel so deeply.  And if they were as hard hearted as they appear to outsiders they wouldn't protest their name nearly as much. 

[Karger]

5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

They are guarded with their feelings because they feel so deeply.  And if they were as hard hearted as they appear to outsiders they wouldn't protest their name nearly as much. 

I would say that is accurate.

[Honorless]

Your Willshaper Oaths would fit Dustbringers quite well

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This reminds me of the tinker that our hero meets on the road, a wacky old man who loves the strangest things but at the same time(key point) always has exactly what our adventurer needs to succeed on there quest. 

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This is great but it may lead to a problem. What happens if your Willshaper gets carried away?  What happens when they invent the atomic bomb or biological warfare?  The history of science is rife with humans using new technologies to hurt kill or torture each other.  Venli herself ended her people because she did not care about the actual results of her new form of power.  As such I think that the third ideal of Willshapers is "I will think of the results of my creations before creating them."

 

[Karger]

On 2/8/2020 at 5:27 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

Upon reading your theory and the Word of Issac it's difficult for me to refute.  Although Spensa does have an affinity for tinkering that's not quite a core personality trait for her

New information actually proves you right.  This is a general Dustbringer thing.

15 hours ago, R J said:

Your Willshaper Oaths would fit Dustbringers quite well

I think they are still somewhat viable as is.  We will see.

[Voidspawn]

I like it, but I'm not 100% sold on the ideals. Quoting the Coppermind, 

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The Second Ideal of the Dustbringers is focused on self mastery.

I don't exactly see how "I will fight for others not for myself," fits with that theme. I'm not saying that the Coppermind is correct, but the Ideal put out here doesn't seem right to me. Brandon Sanderson himself said (at The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant | Brandon Sanderson) that the Oaths were themed towards responsibility and control. I feel like it can still follow the trend(ish) of 

On 12/25/2019 at 9:49 PM, Karger said:

The first ideal is constant, the second is about service, the third is about fairness, the fourth is about trust and the fifth is about the ultimate goal.

but it just doesn't have the right Words.

Frankly, I have no idea what we should have the Oaths for the Releasers be, I just don't think that it sounds right. I'm not going to attempt to make better Ideals, because I'll just make a fool of myself.

However, I do think that the Ideals should be more along the lines of, "I will better myself," or something like that.

Great theory, though!

P.S. Call us Releasers, if you please.

[Karger]

5 hours ago, Voidspawn said:

I don't exactly see how "I will fight for others not for myself," fits with that theme. I'm not saying that the Coppermind is correct, but the Ideal put out here doesn't seem right to me. Brandon Sanderson himself said (at The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant | Brandon Sanderson) that the Oaths were themed towards responsibility and control. I feel like it can still follow the trend(ish) of 

This theory is dated.  I made it before that info was published.  All of these are in need of an update.

5 hours ago, Voidspawn said:

P.S. Call us Releasers, if you please.

Sorry but that doesn't work.  You need a compound word.