Discovering Dustbringer ideals via Spensa(Starsight Spoilers!)

[Karger]

Thanks to this WoB

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Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018)
#1 Share Copy

 

 

Phantine

Okay, let's start with standard Roshar horoscopes:

If Spensa were to join the Knights Radiant, what order would fit her best?

Brandon Sanderson

Most likely, she'd be a Dustbringer. With small arguments for Stoneward, Skybreaker, or Edgedancer.

We know that Spensa best fits in with other Dustbringers.  From the gem archives and the in world WoR book we know that Dustbringers share many qualities with her.  Chief among these qualities is an outward persona of reckless dangerous intensity.  A "nice house lets burn it down for kicks" mentality that is easily apparent in Spensa when we first meet her as a seven year who wants to blow things up.  Interestingly Dustbringers contrast this with a softer side of deep and devoted love and compassion to those that they chose to give their loyalty to.   Jerkface is surprised that Spensa is actually the huggy type. 

Based on one of my older theories radiant oaths (with the exception of Lightweavers) follow a pattern.  The first ideal is constant, the second is about service, the third is about fairness, the fourth is about trust and the fifth is about the ultimate goal.

Spensa goes through character development that reflects some of this in both books.  In Skyward as a child she wants to fly in order to prove to herself and her fellows that she is not a coward.  The only qualities she really demonstrates at this point is an impressive amount of aggression, bravery, and unyielding willpower.  Spensa at this point is forceful enough to get what she wants but what she wants is ultimately selfish.  When she wins the training exercise against Jerkface it is for herself not for anyone else.  Similarly the thing that holds her back (her fear of hurting others) is still ultimately selfish.  She does not want to be the one to kill one of her friends but based on the way the DDF takes losses her friends are all doomed even without her.  The pivotal moment for her is when she admits that she is going to die but states that she will win anyway(by saving them).  As such I think the second ideal of a Dustbringer is "I will fight for others not for myself."

However Spensa is not done here she has saved everyone but she has more to do.  Her next move is to save to get answers.  Instead holding a grudge against the DDF(and spesifically Ironsides) who have treated her extremely poorly she recognizes that these people need her and that she can't help them until she knows more.  As such I think the third ideal for Dustbringers is "I will not turn my back on those who need me no matter who they are or what they have done."

===Starsight spoilers start here===

Starsight provides some excellent information on the fourth ideal.  It is in fact a consistent theme.  Everyone deserves a chance to be treated as human.  Initially Spensa does not trust Culla because of the way he smiles.  However she eventually overcomes her initially apprehension and lets her guard down around him giving him a chance to prove that he deserves her trust and loyalty.  This is the fourth ideal.  "I will allow anyone a chance to prove that they deserve my loyalty."  I think it is telling that Malata does not have her armor.

The ultimate goal of a Dustbringer is to create a world in which people are loyal to each other.  Juggling competing loyalties is also likely a problem for this order(you have to give everyone a chance).  I think the final ideal of a Dustbringer is "I will respect all loyalties no matter who is involved."  If I am judging right this will be the end of Spensa's arc.  She will have to except that some humans are going to be loyal to the superiority and that she herself will have to kill those people.

Pattern of radiant oaths here!

Spoiler

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Karger

[Honorless]

Interesting take on the Fourth & Fifth Ideals, with only the Skybreakers' Ideals as hint, but until we see the (Windrunners', most likely) Fourth Ideal, I don't know.

I like this theory on Dustbringer personality the most out of all other Dustbringer theories so far though, it fits with what we know of them so far quite well! 

[Karger]

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

Fourth Ideal, I don't know.

What would you propose instead?

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

I like this theory on Dustbringer personality the most out of all other Dustbringer theories so far though, it fits with what we know of them so far quite well! 

Thank you.

[KandraAllomancer]

I think you got the second and third Ideal quite right, but the Dustbringers' attribute is not Loyal, it's Brave and Obedient. They seem to about controlling their emotions in order to be responsible:

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dgrath23

Which Radiant Order do you most identify with?

Isaac Stewart

I identify with bits and pieces of most of the Orders. My gut reaction is to say Dustbringers because I love their glyph. But I identify with their relationship to responsibility, learning to keep the passion and rage at bay because that is the responsible thing to do. On the other side of the coin, I might identify more with the Edgedancers like Lift, who focus on helping and caring for other people, because that's also a huge part of my personality.

All that said, I took the unofficial test, and it says I'm a Bondsmith.

Isaac Stewart r/Stormlight_Archive AMA (Oct. 1, 2019)

 

9 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

I think the final ideal of a Dustbringer is "I will respect all loyalties no matter who is involved."

I think it's pretty much impossible - look a the situation Kaladin faces when rescuing Elhokar

[Karger]

31 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I think you got the second and third Ideal quite right, but the Dustbringers' attribute is not Loyal, it's Brave and Obedient. They seem to about controlling their emotions in order to be responsible:

Attributes are just in world explanations.  I would not let Lift conduct a medical examination however awesome she is.  As to the fourth ideal.  The thing that stands between Spensa and trusting Culla is emotion.  She has to control her prejudice in order to make good choices.

[Honorless]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

What would you propose instead?

Something related to the Ideals in practice, inevitable gaps or shortcomings in any moral system perhaps? Both the Ideal of Crusade and Kaladin's reaction to the Fourth Ideal seem to imply something in those directions. Ugh, I'm having trouble phrasing it. Something like, this is what you swore, but in the real world there's situations like this, face them while remaining true to yourselves & your Ideals.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Ugh, I'm having trouble phrasing it. Something like, this is what you swore, but in the real world there's situations like this, face them while remaining true to yourselves & your Ideals.

Ahh I see the problem.  You believe in Practical Ethics where I believe in Applied Ethics.  When confronted with Kaladin's conundrum you believe that Kal has to make exception to his normal ethical code in order to function.  I on the other hand believe that Kaladin's ethical code is just incomplete.

4 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I think it's pretty much impossible - look a the situation Kaladin faces when rescuing Elhokar

I said respect not follow.  A fourth ideal Dustbringer in Kaladin's situation would have stopped Moash and ignored the carnage around them respecting that everyone there had a good reason to be there, chose to be there, and understands the consequences.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[Chiberty]

4 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Ahh I see the problem.  You believe in Practical Ethics where I believe in Applied Ethics.  When confronted with Kaladin's conundrum you believe that Kal has to make exception to his normal ethical code in order to function.  I on the other hand believe that Kaladin's ethical code is just incomplete.

 Wait... Those sound like exactly the same thing.

[Karger]

52 minutes ago, ChickenLiberty said:

 Wait... Those sound like exactly the same thing.

They are not.  A person who believes Practical Ethics does not believe that off the shelf ethics that a philosopher cooks up have any bearing on the real world beyond a rough guide.  A person who believes Applied Ethics believes that if your ethics do not cover a situation then you simple need to go out and expand your ethical code.

[GoWibble]

On 12/26/2019 at 0:49 AM, Ookla the Prolific said:

"I will respect all loyalties no matter who is involved."

You could just simplify it to "I will respect all loyalties"...

[Karger]

5 hours ago, GoWibble said:

You could just simplify it to "I will respect all loyalties"...

Wording is going to vary anyway.  I don't really want to get hung up on it.

[Halyo_Alex]

5 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Wording is going to vary anyway.  I don't really want to get hung up on it.

Yeah. We see that the Windrunner oaths can vary significantly due to personal variables.

[Karger]

23 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Yeah. We see that the Windrunner oaths can vary significantly due to personal variables.

Exactly.  All oaths are somewhat different no matter the order.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[+Oltux72]

On 26/12/2019 at 8:41 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

I said respect not follow.  A fourth ideal Dustbringer in Kaladin's situation would have stopped Moash and ignored the carnage around them respecting that everyone there had a good reason to be there, chose to be there, and understands the consequences.

A Dustbringer would have joined Moash. What we know of Spark does tell us that forgiveness is not a virtue to them. Nor are they good at defense.

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

What we know of Spark

1. Spark and Malata are not representative of all of the Dustbringer order.  We know from WoR that Radiants produced bad apples just like everyone else and that even during peace time they found it necessary to execute one of their own members.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

A Dustbringer would have joined Moash

Would Spensa have joined Moash?  She rejects Brade out of hand.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

What we know of Spark does tell us that forgiveness is not a virtue to them

Is not a virtue to Spark.  Syl proves that Spren can have quite a bit of variation in their opinions on things.

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Nor are they good at defense

But they are quite good at carrying out missions.  Also their role model Chana is considered the guardian.

[KandraAllomancer]

On 26.12.2019 at 5:10 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

Attributes are just in world explanations.  I would not let Lift conduct a medical examination however awesome she is.  As to the fourth ideal.  The thing that stands between Spensa and trusting Culla is emotion.  She has to control her prejudice in order to make good choices.

Lift, as an Edgedancer, is supposed to be Loving and Healing, which she is. She can bring Nale to (some) level of sanity, which is a huge achievement in itself. Healing is not necessarily about body (Progression is for that anyway), it can be about psychology too

On 26.12.2019 at 8:41 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

I said respect not follow.  A fourth ideal Dustbringer in Kaladin's situation would have stopped Moash and ignored the carnage around them respecting that everyone there had a good reason to be there, chose to be there, and understands the consequences.

I think that clashes with the fact that Dustbringers seem rather offensive, both in combat and personality:

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Questioner

Do the Dustbringers have a propensity toward evilness?

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call them evil, but certain members of the Knights Radiant would say they're on the edge, and did not get along with them. Let's just say Skybreakers have not gotten along with Dustbringers, even though they are very near each other in a lot of ways.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

Dustbringers are the destructive force of the Knight Radiants, something that even Kalak comments on in the TWoK prelude. Refusing to fight due to loyalty seems rather counterintuitive here

[Karger]

47 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Lift, as an Edgedancer, is supposed to be Loving and Healing, which she is. She can bring Nale to (some) level of sanity, which is a huge achievement in itself. Healing is not necessarily about body (Progression is for that anyway), it can be about psychology too

My point was not that Lift was unable to heal anyone but that just because she happens to have healing as her divine attribute does not make her a qualified surgeon any more then Dalinar's piety makes him a priest.

On 12/26/2019 at 11:10 AM, Ookla the Prolific said:

I think you got the second and third Ideal quite right, but the Dustbringers' attribute is not Loyal, it's Brave and Obedient. They seem to about controlling their emotions in order to be responsible:

The above ideals reflect how modern Vorin society views Dustbringer ideals not how I view them.  For example loyalty to an abstract ideal does not really seem like a thing for anyone except Dalinar in WoKs.

52 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I think that clashes with the fact that Dustbringers seem rather offensive, both in combat and personality:

I think mowing your way through several classing armies is somewhat aggressive and offensive.

[Nellac]

On 12/29/2019 at 11:36 AM, KandraAllomancer said:

Dustbringers are the destructive force of the Knight Radiants, something that even Kalak comments on in the TWoK prelude. 

This is something that I think too little people consider. There is a comment in one of Dalinar's visions, I don't own copies of the book so I don't have an exact reference, where one of the Radiants say that they fight and teach the people in Alethkar to fight so that other people don't have to. This is the basis for what I think the Dustbringer oaths are. I think they are something along the line of, "I will fight so others don't have to." I think that they take upon themselves the need to destroy and cause harm to others.  The feel all the emotions that come from killing and war, but take this up as their responsibility to deal with so others don't have to. I know there's not a ton of evidence for this, but there's not a ton of evidence for Dustbringer oath's in general so I figured I'd throw it out here and people can decide whether it's convincing or not.

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Nellac said:

This is the basis for what I think the Dustbringer oaths are

That is a Windrunner.  However it is an interesting point.

[Honorless]

@Ookla the Prolific can you do one for the Willshapers and Stonewards as well? 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Honorless

[+Oltux72]

On 29/12/2019 at 6:35 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

Would Spensa have joined Moash?  She rejects Brade out of hand.

She isn't a traitor. She will not forsake her side for whatever reason, but she will not respect authority for the sake of authority.

On 29/12/2019 at 6:35 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

But they are quite good at carrying out missions.  Also their role model Chana is considered the guardian.

Jezrien is supposed to rule, yet the first oaths of the Windrunners are about protection. That connection is not tight. The Windrunners and the Dustbringers will come to your aid, while the Stonewards will die for you, but only in holding the walls. So I would guess something like:
I will seek the enemy out, rather than hide behind walls and gates.

 

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Honorless said:

 can you do one for the Willshapers and Stonewards as well? 

I suppose.  Give me a few hours.  Also any preferences as to witch I should do first?

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

She isn't a traitor. She will not forsake her side for whatever reason, but she will not respect authority for the sake of authority.

She does clearly respect Brade and Brade's own loyalties.  However she has a job to do based on the people that she swore to fight for and in that moment she is fighting for everyone.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Jezrien is supposed to rule, yet the first oaths of the Windrunners are about protection

That is because a leader's most fundamental job is to protect those who he rules. Humans figured this out in the feudal system.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That connection is not tight. The Windrunners and the Dustbringers will come to your aid, while the Stonewards will die for you, but only in holding the walls

That seems kind of ridiculous actually(no offense is intended but think about it).  A warrior must be flexible in his approach to combat he fights where he is needed.  Also we have seen Stonewards come out of the walls and go to the aid of villagers in Dalinar's vissions

Edited December 31, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[Honorless]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

I suppose.  Give me a few hours.  Also any preferences as to witch I should do first?

We have slightly more info on the Stonewards, including a prototype possible candidate for their Second Ideal (I will stand where others fall) ,  so go for them first.

Willshapers seem a bit more complicated. But don't be too late on posting one for them, next book is about them after all, don't let Brandon beat you to the punch! 

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

She does clearly respect Brade and Brade's own loyalties.  However she has a job to do based on the people that she swore to fight for and in that moment she is fighting for everyone.

Again, loyalty and obedience are different things. She will risk her life for her country. But she is the type who would frag a terrible officer.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

That is because a leader's most fundamental job is to protect those who he rules. Humans figured this out in the feudal system.

While this is true, it is so broad that it has little meaning. In particular how ready are you to sacrifice some for the good of the many. Remember the clash between Kaladin and Jsanah.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

That seems kind of ridiculous actually(no offense is intended but think about it).  A warrior must be flexible in his approach to combat he fights where he is needed.  Also we have seen Stonewards come out of the walls and go to the aid of villagers in Dalinar's vissions

It can be ridiculous. However, the orders of the Radiants are clearly specialised. In extreme cases they will all summon blade (safe for the Bondsmiths) and Plate and fight, but their approach will be very different. You can argue that a good offense is the best defense. After all a dead enemy won't harm yours anymore. You can also argue that hunting down an enemy who will be reborn really is stupid and you should let them bleed themselves to death attacking your forified positions. Roshar lost enough population in the desolations. You really cannot afford to let it become even worse.

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Again, loyalty and obedience are different things. She will risk her life for her country. But she is the type who would frag a terrible officer.

But she is not obedient to anyone.  In fact she is perfectly willing to go her own way.  At the beginning of Starsight she only questions her judgement when leaving not her authority or the necessity of carrying out her mission without any orders.  So no she is loyal to a verity of peoples but obedient she is not.

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

While this is true, it is so broad that it has little meaning. In particular how ready are you to sacrifice some for the good of the many. Remember the clash between Kaladin and Jsanah.

Jasnah is not a leader(in terms of temperament) she is a strategist

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

It can be ridiculous. However, the orders of the Radiants are clearly specialised. In extreme cases they will all summon blade (safe for the Bondsmiths) and Plate and fight, but their approach will be very different You can argue that a good offense is the best defense. After all a dead enemy won't harm yours anymore. You can also argue that hunting down an enemy who will be reborn really is stupid and you should let them bleed themselves to death attacking your forified positions. Roshar lost enough population in the desolations. You really cannot afford to let it become even worse.

They may be specialized but that does not make it true that all members of one order have the same specialty.  Their specialization comes from ideology and temperament not profession or tactical approach.