Shard Avatars on Roshar

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

Throughout the Cosmere we have seen Avatar of other shards , the island Patji in six of dusk is supposedly one of autonomy Avatars which got me to thinking . What other Avatars have we seen and are any of them on Roshar

       Of the top of my head I would assume said Avatar would be filled to bursting with power . But that is just me thinking , I’m a mortal sue me . But perhaps it doesn’t have to be so . All the Shard has to do to make an Avatar is find a area infested with investiture and change it according to the shards design and boom Avatar . 

       When Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar that’s pretty much what they did to the Mega spren . Stormfather , Sibling , and Nightwatcher. But there has to be others : based upon what we have seen can u think of any others ? 

       Here is my list of what could be 

1. Urithiru , I think Urithiru is an avatar of Honor thus in hibernation since the Sibling is as well 

2. The purelake . Something is going on with that place , thier are faint traces of magic . Little things like eating certain fish will give you access to fortune , etc . I think this is an Avatar of Cultivation

3. Everytime I mention Lift people get upset but I think she is more than a Radiant . She does too much , like entering Dalinar visions and leaving when she felt like it and took gaux with her 

4. That giant spren that look like a great shell , that the Aimian guy was searching for 

5. All the Heralds 

6 the unmade 

can anybody think of any more that you might think qualifies to possibly be an Avatar?

merry Christmas members ! 

[Bigmikey357]

Cuseich of the many faces

[Calderis]

I think Avatars are something specific... And while others could definitely do what Autonomy has, per WoB, I don't think that they have. 

[Elegy]

We don't know a lot about how avatars function and what distincts them from other phenomena. There's "champions", which seem to be mortal persons that have been chosen to represent a Shard in a conflict, like Dalinar. The Heralds seem to be a similar case (although not the same), and Lift might be as well (too early to say). The avatars, however, are different from champions, as implied in here:

Quote

Questioner

So Bavadin's avatar *inaudible*.

Brandon Sanderson

One of Bavadin's avatars. 

Questioner

Of those avatars, are some or all of them actual Splinters of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

The terminology gets kind of sticky here. In Cosmere terms, some would say that counts as Splinters, some would say not. The avatars aren't necessarily aware but Bavadin always is. A lot of people in Cosmere would call that a Splinter. 

Questioner

My follow up to that would be, is it possible for a person to Ascend and become a Vessel of one of those Splinters?  

Brandon Sanderson

That is plausible. Yes. It could happen. It would be tough because they will have personalities of their own and so something would need to happen.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

The avatars are considerd as Splinters by "a lot of people", but I doubt anyone would have called Dalinar a "Splinter" of Odium had he chosen to become his champion, just like it would have seemed odd for someone to become a "Vessel" of Dalinar. So avatars seem to be more comparable to mini-Shards/huge concentrations of living Investiture, so like the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, the Sibling, Cusicesh and the Unmade. However, there's obviously a distinction between "typical Splinters" and "avatars that would be considered Splinters by some". The Splinters mentioned seem pretty straight-forward to me and it doesn't look like it would be controversial to just call them Splinters, which makes it unlikely for them to be avatars - because those seem to be in a gray area.

So that leaves only the Purelake, which hasn't shown any signs of awareness yet (which all the avatars we know of definitely have). It's more likely that it's "just" a place with strange things going on. I also agree that avatars are specifically Autonomy's area of expertise. I think non-Autonomy avatars are probably more of an oddity in the cosmere. It's one of many things Shards can do with their powers, and other Shards choose other ways, like Honor having the Heralds, Endowment having the Returned, etc, etc. - That's how it seems to me, at least.

Oh, and Merry Christmas! 

Edited December 25, 2019 by Elegy

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

1 hour ago, Elegy said:

We don't know a lot about how avatars function and what distincts them from other phenomena. There's "champions", which seem to be mortal persons that have been chosen to represent a Shard in a conflict, like Dalinar. The Heralds seem to be a similar case (although not the same), and Lift might be as well (too early to say). The avatars, however, are different from champions, as implied in here:

The avatars are considerd as Splinters by "a lot of people", but I doubt anyone would have called Dalinar a "Splinter" of Odium had he chosen to become his champion, just like it would have seemed odd for someone to become a "Vessel" of Dalinar. So avatars seem to be more comparable to mini-Shards/huge concentrations of living Investiture, so like the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, the Sibling, Cusicesh and the Unmade. However, there's obviously a distinction between "typical Splinters" and "avatars that would be considered Splinters by some". The Splinters mentioned seem pretty straight-forward to me and it doesn't look like it would be controversial to just call them Splinters, which makes it unlikely for them to be avatars - because those seem to be in a gray area.

So that leaves only the Purelake, which hasn't shown any signs of awareness yet (which all the avatars we know of definitely have). It's more likely that it's "just" a place with strange things going on. I also agree that avatars are specifically Autonomy's area of expertise. I think non-Autonomy avatars are probably more of an oddity in the cosmere. It's one of many things Shards can do with their powers, and other Shards choose other ways, like Honor having the Heralds, Endowment having the Returned, etc, etc. - That's how it seems to me, at least.

Oh, and Merry Christmas! 

When I made this post I did not know of the WoB posted above . Without even knowing I felt splinters and Avatars were akin . The difference may be self awareness . For example how Stormfather is alive and make decisions . He seems limited in what he can take . Like Honor programmed him to only be able to do certain things . Things that are contrary to his nature he cannot perform. He can’t break oaths for example . And even though he may want to break an Oath to save Dalinar’s life for example he won’t do it because of his “programming” a True Avatar probably be free to make up its own mind about what it wants to do . Perhaps this is why Autonomy is the only one using this phenomenon. Her whole preview is autonomy of free will . We don’t know about Lift yet but if she is an Avatar she certainly fits the free will threshold. 

        The unmade May or may not reach this level as well  . Not all of them . But the ones that have intelligence . The Unmade that wants to break away from Odium kind of has me interested and that’s why I included them initially . 

       The Heralds although they have free will are alive for a purpose. To maintain the Oathpact . I know there is a WoB about some of them have worldhopped before . I just feel no matter what they do eventually the would have to return to Roshar as they are tied  to that physical plane. 

       The Purelake has some interesting things that happen around it . It may be as you say that just unusual thing due to all the investiture that has been absorbed thru it’s waters over the centuries .

        Remember this is just speculation . And all I’m asking is what places and or beings that you think could possibly be Avatars . The way Brandon writes we usualky have some kind of foreshadowing before hand to pique our curiosity . I sincerely doubt he will spring a splinter or Avarae on us out of nowhere . I think he will reveal it possibly in book 4 or 5 and we will go “ omg how did we not see that coming”

      That’s another reason I put Urithiru on there . I used to think it was just a fabrial ! And it would awaken when someone bonded the Sibling. The way Renarin and some of the Radiants ( ancient ones in gem archive) talks about it being alive makes me thinks it’s more to it than that . 

       So can anyone think of any other beings , places or things that might qualify as a splinter. 

         

[Honorless]

I think the difference between a Splinter and an Avatar is the "source" of Investiture. A Splinter is created from part of the Shard's own Investiture. An Avatar might be created from Investiture that is affiliated with the Shard but is not the primary chunk that the Vessel of the Shard has access to, that is, this Investiture was put somewhere else by Adonalsium and post-Shattering became associated with a Shard. A Vessel can create an Avatar out of it, as Investiture tends towards gaining sapience, without breaking off parts of their own Investiture.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Honorless

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

6 hours ago, Honorless said:

I think the difference between a Splinter and an Avatar is the "source" of Investiture. A Splinter is created from part of the Shard's own Investiture. An Avatar might be created from Investiture that is affiliated with the Shard but is not the primary chunk that the Vessel of the Shard has access to, that is, this Investiture was put somewhere else by Adonalsium and post-Shattering became associated with a Shard. A Vessel can create an Avatar out of it, as Investiture tends towards gaining sapience, without breaking off parts of their own Investiture.

Makes sense . Using that template on Roshar , that means Stormfather , Nightwatcher , Sibling . Criusiach could be made one as well . Can you think of any other beings or places that qualify for this on Roshar ! 

[Honorless]

2 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Makes sense . Using that template on Roshar , that means Stormfather , Nightwatcher , Sibling . Criusiach could be made one as well . Can you think of any other beings or places that qualify for this on Roshar ! 

If Stormfather is any indication, I think the rest too were already created by Adonalsium and already more geared towards Honor and Cultivation. I think they are Splinters.

It's spelled Cusicesh, btw