What all could Hoid do in a fight to circumvent his weakness

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

We all know that Hoid has a weakness . If he even thinks about causing harm to someone who is not a cognitive shadow he experiences incapacitating pain . So this got me wondering what all he could do if for example some Fused caught up to him . They are Cognitive shadows so maybe he could hurt them? I also wondered if the 17th Shard tried to take him prisoner could he indirectly fight ? 

         1. Could he use emotional allomancy to make them fear him so he could scare them off ? Or perhaps talk them into letting him go 

2. Could he use Breath and say enchant his cloak and say defend me ? Could he create Lifeless and have them fight for him ? 

3. Let’s say there is a pit in the floor and someone is chasing him , could he use lightweaving and make the pit appear to be solid ground ? Or would that cause him pain 

4. Let’s say 4 Fused are attacking him . He used lightweaving to appear as a Fused and make another Fused appear as him . The other Fused unwittingly attack there fellow would Hoids weakness key in because he didn’t harm anybody 

what situations or powers do you think he could get away with and which can’t he . ? 

I had this idea that he is not helpless . I think he do Alot and get away with it if it’s indirect enough . My favorite is Hoid is in a bar up comes the 17 Shard . Hoid puts some poison in his glass . Then uses emotional allomancy to Riot everyone sense of thirst in the bar , he flairs it in fact and sets his cup of poisoned wine down in front of him as the 17 Shard surrounds him . If one of them drank the poison because he was so thirsty that’s not him harming them , they harmed themselves ... idk what do you guys think ? 

[Elegy]

2 hours ago, Debarra said:

I'm aware he can't fight living things, I'm unaware of him experiencing pain for even thinking about it. Was that a recent WoB I missed?

It's this one (although it's paraphrased, so I'm wouldn't take it word-for-word):

Quote

A Budgie (paraphrased)

So, Hoid can't physically hurt someone, but does this ban extend to mental harm and harm through inaction?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Hoid can mentally hurt someone, or allow them to be hurt, but when considering physical trauma he gets nauseous, to the point he can be incapacitated

Supanova 2017 - Perth (June 25, 2017)

Considering this, I would guess that all of the techniques mentioned in the original post would work. Those are some really good ideas!

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

2 hours ago, Debarra said:

I'm aware he can't fight living things, I'm unaware of him experiencing pain for even thinking about it. Was that a recent WoB I missed?

 In the end it depends really on how exactly his weakness works. If it doesn't count indirect harm then he could attack as you have suggested. If it does include indirect harm then there is truly nothing he can do.

No it’s not a recent one , it’s pretty old 

[ZenBossanova]

My guess is once he becomes a voidbinder or can use Odium's investiture, then he will be able to harm all he wants to. 

My head canon is that an unknown Shard gave him power, but with a surprise limitation, so the Shards didn't have to worry about him. 

[ftl]

He might be able to fight back physically as long as he's attempting to restrain his enemy, not actually harm them.

For the fused, for example, as long as he's trying to send them back to Braize instead of hurting them, he might have various physical options.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

12 hours ago, ftl said:

He might be able to fight back physically as long as he's attempting to restrain his enemy, not actually harm them.

For the fused, for example, as long as he's trying to send them back to Braize instead of hurting them, he might have various physical options.

That’s just it the mechanics involved in this are beyond my understanding of this WoB . I feel Brandon is misleading us by being to general in his answer . I need somebody who understands the nuances of the magic systems to tell me if these things would work . @Calderis u have any idea if he can indirectly harm somebody physically . Or is the thought of indirectly harming them thru concieling the terrain with lightweaving enough to reach this threshold ?

[Calderis]

The problem here, is one of Intent. 

If he means to cause harm, he gets nauseated to the point of incapacitation. The method shouldn't matter.

Theres definitely some flexibility there, as we know that the prohibition applies to himself as well and he was able to insult someone into striking him intentionally... But then there's the question of his healing ability and the mental gymnastics of what constitutes "harm." 

Personally, I think mental games are the most sure bet, and harm cause as a byproduct. An awakened object task with defense that causes harm should work. One tasked with a command to kill is going to require a command, and the accompanied mental image, that should incapacitate him. 

In the poison example, if putting the poison on the drink wasn't a trigger in itself, the rioting with the purpose of getting someone to drink the poison should... 

It's complicated, which is really what makes it interesting. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

The problem here, is one of Intent. 

If he means to cause harm, he gets nauseated to the point of incapacitation. The method shouldn't matter.

Theres definitely some flexibility there, as we know that the prohibition applies to himself as well and he was able to insult someone into striking him intentionally... But then there's the question of his healing ability and the mental gymnastics of what constitutes "harm." 

Personally, I think mental games are the most sure bet, and harm cause as a byproduct. An awakened object task with defense that causes harm should work. One tasked with a command to kill is going to require a command, and the accompanied mental image, that should incapacitate him. 

In the poison example, if putting the poison on the drink wasn't a trigger in itself, the rioting with the purpose of getting someone to drink the poison should... 

It's complicated, which is really what makes it interesting. 

I think your right . I was struggling with intent or if it function off perception. For example if Hoid was in a room with traps that he didn’t place there. For purposes of this experiment let’s say they are pit traps , Hoid runs into the room and throws down a lightweaving of the floor being a normal room. A guy runs in the room and falls into a pit . Brandon said Hoid could let someone be hurt . I’m struggling with the issue of whether or not this meets the threshold . Perhaps if Hoid was thinking I’m making this floor seem normal so I can jump into the pit and hide then he could circumvent his weakness. 

        I keep going back to emotional allomancy cause Brandon said he could cause mental harm . Thing is I don’t think rioting a sense of thirst is mental harm if Hoid knows the cup has poison . I struggled with that trap all night , and finally came up if it was a sleep poison he should slide by his nausea .

      Anyways I’m predicting we are going to see some action from Hoid in stormlight 4 . So I’m trying to figure out what all Hoid can do . After all he has had a long time to think up some clever work Around’s !