Cognitive Realm Mass Transit

[Bigmikey357]

Let's say I'm an enterprising,  Cosmere-aware individual.  In addition to wanting to make tons of money,  I feel that it would be beneficial for all the sapient species in the Cosmere to have closer ties to one another,  if for no other reason than to keep a random, belligerent Shard from murdering everyone on a whim. So I get the bright idea, Cosmere Mass Transit!

So now comes my brainstorming session. What form would it take? Trains, Planes, Automobiles? How would I get material?  What about my Labor force? The planetary populations we've read about so far are mighty short and I imagine it's going to take a lot of Labor. Maybe Lifeless? Are the local conditions present in the CR conducive to such a large scale building project? I can see issues coming from Sel local especially on that score. And of course how do I incorporate magic users into this venture, as we as who else can I get to help me pay for it all. Basically I have a vision that this is a feasible project,  one that can be accomplished without reliance upon quantum leap discoveries involving FTL travel through the Physical Realm. Does anyone else think that this venture could be successful or am I just a foolish dreamer? Any ideas to overcome some of the issues as well as any issues I haven't foreseen are welcome. 

[Honorless]

We'd still need some way to access or create Perpendicularities for a Cognitive mass transit to work. Construction in the Cognitive should be possible going by Silverlight and the Ire, so I think yeah! The project can be greenlighted! 

[Aon Tia]

yes, i just today asked on the other topic, if they think there is some interplanetary public transport to take worldhoppers from one perpendicularity to another in the CR. Needless to say, @Bigmikey357 i am on -board whether it is trains, planes or cabs or chulls!! I think we can look for Silverlight scholars especially for help in this venture!

[Dancer]

better hope that the shard on that world is cool with mass immigration to their planet. If not you might find it very hard to get your project up and running if not out right smited. 

[Isilel]

Lifeless-drawn carts and South Scadrian ettmetal-powered vehicles would both work very well in interstellar Cognitive at this point in the chronology, IMHO. You wouldn't really want to bring  any draft animals for that purpose, because feeding and watering them would be a huge, possibly insurmountable, problem. To get onto the worlds without Perpendicularities they'll need to wait until Elsecallers and/or Willshapers figure out how to get their spren off-world. Rosharan fabrials would face the same problem.

By the by, I have this so far largely unsupported theory that some of the Elsecallers, Willshapers and other more Cultivation-aligned Orders didn't  break their Oaths during the Recreance, but opted to take their spren out of Rosharan system instead, reasoning that they couldn't possibly destroy any planets when away from the sources of readily available and abundant investiture such as stormlight. And that their spren wouldn't be able to return to Roshar on their own and be tempted to endanger it by bonding again.

[Bigmikey357]

My vision was always mechanical in nature.  I was thinking trains local, planes between worlds. Scadrial and canning foods factors pretty high in my estimates. 

I think I'd have to approach a Shard and obtain at least initial cooperation. They can make perpendicularities more easily than any magic user not named Dalinar Kholin and have enough power to derail the process before it starts. Cultivation could be on board if I stress the growth of all species through interactions with each other, Harmony seems pro technology and could be persuaded also.  All I need is one planet as proof of concept and I'm sure others will follow.  

My target planet for the startup venture would be Nalthis. They've already have a customs office which suggests favorable infrastructure; it lends itself to scaling up.

[Quantus]

4 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

My vision was always mechanical in nature.  I was thinking trains local, planes between worlds. Scadrial and canning foods factors pretty high in my estimates. 

I think I'd have to approach a Shard and obtain at least initial cooperation. They can make perpendicularities more easily than any magic user not named Dalinar Kholin and have enough power to derail the process before it starts. Cultivation could be on board if I stress the growth of all species through interactions with each other, Harmony seems pro technology and could be persuaded also.  All I need is one planet as proof of concept and I'm sure others will follow.  

My target planet for the startup venture would be Nalthis. They've already have a customs office which suggests favorable infrastructure; it lends itself to scaling up.

I dont think you actually need a shards cooperation, their initial perpendicularity should be as accessible as always, unless they do something Rude like bind it to a Storm...  Granted they could make micro-perpendicularities (Elsecalling style) at a whim, and probably grant you some means to control them for customs purposes, at least on their own planets. Though if you had a shards full cooperation you could probably pull off Spiritual Realm Mass Transit, which could be instantaneous like Oathgates and might even be able to reach uninhabited planets that dont yet have a developed their own CR.

For a purely mechanical approach, Trains would probably be enough for a lot of the terrain, there's not actually much distance between worlds so there's not a big distance that would need to be jumped between worlds.  Im a little unclear on how available Ettmetal is, the Southerners are using it for transit but it might still be rare enough to be more of a reserved military resource kinda like like Atium was, so you might have to wait for Navani to complete her Fabrial Airships.  You'd probably switch to riverboat barges for a lot of the Rosharan bead-sea, and maybe something similar for other worlds.  Sel is still going to be tough, but it's hard to say what the specific challenges would be.  If Scadrial is called the Expanse of The Vapors, Im curious of the CR Mists we saw there could be used to support blimps and dirigibles and such (which would fit their steam-punky nature nicely).  

[+Oltux72]

39 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

For a purely mechanical approach, Trains would probably be enough for a lot of the terrain, there's not actually much distance between worlds so there's not a big distance that would need to be jumped between worlds.

Yes, but that does not help you. The perpendicularities will not be right at the edge of a subastral. Within a subastral at least the settled continents have their original sizes. That means that you have thousands of kilometers to travel.

39 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

  Im a little unclear on how available Ettmetal is, the Southerners are using it for transit but it might still be rare enough to be more of a reserved military resource kinda like like Atium was, so you might have to wait for Navani to complete her Fabrial Airships.

There is a problem. Fabrials include a spren. They take their original shape in the CR. Taking a fabrial through the CR is likely impossible and may have catastrophic consequences, if the spren materializes inside the gem.

39 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

  You'd probably switch to riverboat barges for a lot of the Rosharan bead-sea, and maybe something similar for other worlds.  Sel is still going to be tough, but it's hard to say what the specific challenges would be.  If Scadrial is called the Expanse of The Vapors, Im curious of the CR Mists we saw there could be used to support blimps and dirigibles and such (which would fit their steam-punky nature nicely).  

A lot of open questions.

1. Does the CR shift around? How long would railway tracks last?
2. Do speeds map linearly?
3. Can you do the materialization trick between worlds? If not the Spren apparatus for making drinking water will fail.

If you are content to use kind of manual power I see some options

• awakened constructs
• lifeless
• cognitive shadows
• animal spren

If you go for mechanical constructs, you will need to power them. That is problematic. The distances are long. That will take many depots, if you took fuel from the PR. Again open questions.

1. What happens if you manifest a drum of gasoline and put it into an engine?
2. Can you manifest a fire and ice and use that to run a heat engine?
3. Can you manifest a fueled vehicle?

 

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but that does not help you. The perpendicularities will not be right at the edge of a subastral. Within a subastral at least the settled continents have their original sizes. That means that you have thousands of kilometers to travel.

You missed my point: the OP posited trains for the terrain of a given world and Planes for travel between them, I was trying to say that the space between the worlds is minuscule so if trains are enough for within the world they should be good enough for the space between them, so long as the terrain itself allows for overland travel.  Yes, planes are always better, though trains were and still are indeed used tor traverse thousands of miles, Just not for public transit in the US ever since the Wright brothers killed the public travel part of that industry, though Europe has a different opinion.   

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

There is a problem. Fabrials include a spren. They take their original shape in the CR. Taking a fabrial through the CR is likely impossible and may have catastrophic consequences, if the spren materializes inside the gem.

Excellent point, and that does pose a larger problem for Rosharan tech as the cosmere moved toward a trans-planetary communiity.  I wonder if you can manifest a complete Fabrial from shadesmar the way you can manifest the Physical realm form from inside a Bead?  Perhaps that version doesnt bring the Spren into shadesmar enough to revert to their native form?  Pure speculation on my part.  

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

A lot of open questions.

1. Does the CR shift around? How long would railway tracks last?

Given that Silverlight, the Ire, that Lighthouse guy, and Spren have all managed to build permanent structures in Shadesmare I think it's reasonable.  But liek literally every detail of the Cognitive Realm it will entirely depend on the planetary region

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

1. Do speeds map linearly?

As much as they do for the current Shadesmar worldhopping Caravans, so close enough for practical purposes.  

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

1. Can you do the materialization trick between worlds? If not the Spren apparatus for making drinking water will fail.

Almost certainly not since there wouldnt be Beads anywhere else, but they other regoins will almost certainly have their own equivalents since that (and the air itself) was added for pure story reasons.  

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

If you are content to use kind of manual power I see some options

• awakened constructs
• lifeless
• cognitive shadows
• animal spren

Animal spren are already in use, and both Awakening solutions wouldnt surprise me.  Cognitive Shadows seems...obscene to me somehow, turning a person's Afterlife into eternal slavery...

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

If you go for mechanical constructs, you will need to power them. That is problematic. The distances are long. That will take many depots, if you took fuel from the PR. Again open questions.

1. What happens if you manifest a drum of gasoline and put it into an engine?
2. Can you manifest a fire and ice and use that to run a heat engine?
3. Can you manifest a fueled vehicle?

Those are defaulting to a Chemical Fuel solution, but that is not the only option they'd have.  Traditional train tech really only needs Heat , which is something you might be able to create from all kinds of Realmic mechanisms (beads being a great one).  There was also one WOB I recall that indicated other Nathian cultures used Breaths and Awakening in wildly different ways than the Helandrian Awakening we've seen, with hints you could do thinks like awaken a Wheel to perpetually turn (This is a vague recollection so I will try to find the WOB for proper details).   We also had a thread a while back that had different mechanical designs for a driven wheel/engine using standard (non-Ettmetal) Allomancy, using cyclic pushes.  

[Bigmikey357]

Maybe awakened constructs would be a better initial idea considering fueling constraints.  Then again,  there are many ways to generate electricity and I can think of a few ways it can be generated by aid of investiture.  Still,  research would definitely be ongoing to find the most efficient ways to do this, and upgrade accordingly. 

As far as food and water, the Scadrian Canning industry factors largely in my plans. Depots all over with canned goods to feed passengers on long trips.  Only the luxury liners would load fresh food for premium prices. 

In fact, I'm recruiting Scadrians en masse for this project anyway; their magic works independently of their planet.  Of course I can recruit locally too. Spren things for the Rosharan CR for example. But there's gonna be Scadrians everywhere in this project. 

As for Sel, I think something could be done with ettmetal leecher insulation. Maybe someone could even find a way to harness all that free Investiture for fuel or propulsion.  Again,  research is ongoing. 

As far as CR permanence,  I would like to get in touch with Silverlight,  see if they'd provide me with surveyors.  They're already doing maps.

Spiritual Realm is weird.  I'm not sure if I would even want to mess with it on a mass Transit scale.  Even If I were to figure it out I'd likely reserve it for emergency personnel and purposes.

[Dancer]

You will have to bring resources from the PR through a perpendicularity into the CR. If you do the manifestation trick that Shallan did then you would only be able to move it so far from were it is in the PR.

 

This was an issue for Kelsier when he came to the edge of the Scadrial subastral. His camp fire started to disappear.

 

If you are going to do this you will need access to at least one perpendicularity which will mean you will need the approval of a Shard, probably Harmony will be the best. He is less likely to get involved once the approval is met. Cultivation is busy dealing with a desolation and Endowment is known to make decisions on a whim. Autonomy is likely to straight up close the borders again if she finds out about this plan.  

Edited December 20, 2019 by Dancer

[+Oltux72]

17 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Excellent point, and that does pose a larger problem for Rosharan tech as the cosmere moved toward a trans-planetary communiity.  I wonder if you can manifest a complete Fabrial from shadesmar the way you can manifest the Physical realm form from inside a Bead?

I guess you would get the empty device without the spren. Maybe even without the gems.

17 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Given that Silverlight, the Ire, that Lighthouse guy, and Spren have all managed to build permanent structures in Shadesmare I think it's reasonable.  But liek literally every detail of the Cognitive Realm it will entirely depend on the planetary region

They have built permanently inhabitated structures. Which means that people or spren will think about such structures on a permanent basis. Hence we can not rule out that it takes thoughts to keep places in place, especially as planets move with respect to each other.

17 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

As much as they do for the current Shadesmar worldhopping Caravans, so close enough for practical purposes.

That is dangerous to assume. How often do you answer to the question, "how far is that?" with "2 hours in good traffic"?

17 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Cognitive Shadows seems...obscene to me somehow, turning a person's Afterlife into eternal slavery...

Why eternal? You have access to a perpendicularity, in fact at least two of them. You can repeat the Kelsier-process. Walk them into the shard pool and then run them through with your sword. You have created a Cognitive Shadow. In fact you could sell a kind of immortality. People can pay with a period of labor, if they don't have cash.

18 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

As for Sel, I think something could be done with ettmetal leecher insulation. Maybe someone could even find a way to harness all that free Investiture for fuel or propulsion.  Again,  research is ongoing.

Aluminium armor.

2 hours ago, Dancer said:

If you are going to do this you will need access to at least one perpendicularity which will mean you will need the approval of a Shard, probably Harmony will be the best.

How would you reenter the PR without them? Neutral perpendicularities seems absolutely necessary.

2 hours ago, Dancer said:

He is less likely to get involved once the approval is met. Cultivation is busy dealing with a desolation and Endowment is known to make decisions on a whim. Autonomy is likely to straight up close the borders again if she finds out about this plan.  

You need Scadrial for the canned food alone. It is also technologically advanced, in fact at the top of the readily accessible worlds. You also need something exportable, preferably magical. You can export Scadrians, but not Scadrian magic. (let's not talk hemalurgy) So what is exportable? Stormlight is difficult, it does not keep. Breaths are ideal, but the source is politically difficult. Aviars would be good, but the source is just not safe.
So where would I go other than Scadrial?

• the place the Aethers come from
• Ashyn
• Elantris, if you can brave the Dor

[Bigmikey357]

The problem of trade did not readily occur to me, though I did wonder about funding sources. And of course the way to get investors is by providing self interest.  Scadrial as an industrial planet with a dearth of population needs 2 things, cheap labor and raw materials. Nalthis can provide the cheapest labor imaginable,but they have no need for raw materials because the world is empty.  Roshar can trade tech once they figure out how to make fabrials work out of system.  If they cannot they could still make a killing in live flora and fauna, flora that grows in adverse conditions and unique as all get out animal specimens. As for Elantrans? I'm honestly not sure but what I am sure of is someone there is likely to think of something. Aviary from Drominad, silver from Threnody,  special sands from Taldain. I wouldn't be the only person thinking about ways to make a buck once the idea becomes closer to reality. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

39 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The problem of trade did not readily occur to me, though I did wonder about funding sources. And of course the way to get investors is by providing self interest.  Scadrial as an industrial planet with a dearth of population needs 2 things, cheap labor and raw materials. Nalthis can provide the cheapest labor imaginable,but they have no need for raw materials because the world is empty.  Roshar can trade tech once they figure out how to make fabrials work out of system.  If they cannot they could still make a killing in live flora and fauna, flora that grows in adverse conditions and unique as all get out animal specimens. As for Elantrans? I'm honestly not sure but what I am sure of is someone there is likely to think of something. Aviary from Drominad, silver from Threnody,  special sands from Taldain. I wouldn't be the only person thinking about ways to make a buck once the idea becomes closer to reality. 

That’s one thing that always bothered me . I wanted to make a thread about it but I just figured it was a RAFO answer , Why isn’t silver an Allomantic Metal ? That would be an instant reason for trade with threnody . It would give allomancers an advantage when they Worldhopped to threnody . Traditionally silver is a metal that is anti supernatural . So I just can’t get why he didn’t do it?

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

That’s one thing that always bothered me . I wanted to make a thread about it but I just figured it was a RAFO answer , Why isn’t silver an Allomantic Metal ? That would be an instant reason for trade with threnody . It would give allomancers an advantage when they Worldhopped to threnody . Traditionally silver is a metal that is anti supernatural . So I just can’t get why he didn’t do it?

That was Brandon wanting to be different.  The properties of aluminum were originally going to go to silver but he gave that up pretty early in his writing process.  Plus he wanted a metal that was exceedingly rare in pre industrial times but was common afterwards.  His eyes were set on working out the kinks in era 3/4 Mistborn kinda from the beginning.

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I guess you would get the empty device without the spren. Maybe even without the gems.

Huh, interesting point on Gems. We actually know that the gems come through when you travel Physcially, and the stormlight inside it for that matter.  They had their store fo gems, and even teh spren where using Gems to contain the stormlight.  In fact, they made use of the properties of Perfect Gems for long-term storage.  Given those thing's thematic proximity to containing Spren, its possible that bringing the spren to shadesmar while imprisoned physically in the gem would not free the spren. 

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They have built permanently inhabitated structures. Which means that people or spren will think about such structures on a permanent basis. Hence we can not rule out that it takes thoughts to keep places in place, especially as planets move with respect to each other.

Well, if the transit lines where used by actual Masses then they could provide those maintaining Thoughts.  They might not fill in a whole lot of terrain in between but I think they could conceptualize a Road or Tunnel or Bridge simply enough.   Whether it takes a lot of the planets PR population to know about the trade route is hard to say right since we've barely seen how any of them work and Roshar is a fringe example.   I'd like to get a closer look at Nalthis's Customs operation.  

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That is dangerous to assume. How often do you answer to the question, "how far is that?" with "2 hours in good traffic"?

I dont see the danger.  They are already making the trip through whatever temporal effects are in play, so traversing it in a vehicle shouldnt change the function; I cant say there arent dangers and I have no idea how time went for Vivenna on her trip (from an objective reference or her own subjective one) but the existence of established trade routes indicates that worldhoppers have already managed to overcome them. 

Or wait, are you suggesting that there is some speed-dependent relativity going the way a Physical Realm FTL would?  That would be...interesting and possible but I have no data on the temporal terrain of the CR, or its potential relativistic effects. 

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why eternal? You have access to a perpendicularity, in fact at least two of them. You can repeat the Kelsier-process. Walk them into the shard pool and then run them through with your sword. You have created a Cognitive Shadow. In fact you could sell a kind of immortality. People can pay with a period of labor, if they don't have cash.

Good Point, that's entirely fair.  If it was informed consent in exchange for a form of Invested Immortality, I wouldnt have much to say against it. It wouldnt be the brutal slavery harvest I was initially picturing.  I would probably find some other way to invest them than walking them into the Shardpool itself, just in case they decide to grab more power than you want, but it should more or less work.  

I still have my own general discomfort with the idea of long-distance Human-power freight as a technology, indentured or not.  Even the idea of palanquins that are so common on Roshar weird me out, so extending that to freight or long distances rubs me the wrong way.  

[Fezzik]

9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

People can pay with a period of labor, if they don't have cash.

This is called indentured servitude. It is one step removed from slavery.

[Isilel]

On 19.12.2019 at 1:54 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

My vision was always mechanical in nature.  I was thinking trains local, planes between worlds. Scadrial and canning foods factors pretty high in my estimates. 

I think I'd have to approach a Shard and obtain at least initial cooperation.

From what we have seen, the interstellar cognitive space is level, so no need to lay railways tracks and also no particular need to fly. So, a "train" consisting of a powerful vehicle tugging a lot of wagons would be best for interstellar transportation in bulk. Planes would be much more useful in planetary cognitives, what with beads, mists, etc. to drown in and a lot of space to cross. Yes, it is possible to travel on the solid reflections of waterways, but they won't necessarily be connected to shardpools. I am also not sure about railways there - it seems like a huge labour and resource investment for something that can be more easily achieved by other means.

Nor do I see Shards lowering themselves to actively participate in such endeaviors. If they want to favor interstellar trade they can just make sure that their perpendicularities are conveniently accessible to the worldhoppers via waterways and make it possible to use their magic systems off-world.

 

On 19.12.2019 at 4:59 PM, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

 Excellent point, and that does pose a larger problem for Rosharan tech as the cosmere moved toward a trans-planetary communiity.  I wonder if you can manifest a complete Fabrial from shadesmar the way you can manifest the Physical realm form from inside a Bead?

What the spren have for water production on their ships is another type of fabrial, one that doesn't require spren because the work is done by manifestation. There is no reason why this principle can't be applied to more sophisticated mechanisms, like steam engines. Of course, you'd need investiture for them to work and they probably can't be taken into interstellar space.

 

On 19.12.2019 at 4:59 PM, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Given that Silverlight, the Ire, that Lighthouse guy, and Spren have all managed to build permanent structures in Shadesmare I think it's reasonable.  But liek literally every detail of the Cognitive Realm it will entirely depend on the planetary region

These may be very different from each other. We know nothing about Silverlight - it might be built from materials imported from the physical realm. Riino likely built his lighthouse from manifested materials, but he is in the Cognitive of their respective planet, so it would have been comparatively easy. The Ire fortress in "The Secret History" is very interesting though, because it was clearly built from manifested Selish stuff - as Kelsier discovered by touching it and getting glimpses of Sel. So, it is possible to take cognitive reflections of items into interstellar space and even to the outskirts of a another star system. However, they also had the investiture pipes powering the structure and this might be what is required to achieve this feat. It also suggests that the means of using the Dor investiture from the Selish Cognitive safely already exist.

 

On 19.12.2019 at 4:59 PM, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

 Traditional train tech really only needs Heat , which is something you might be able to create from all kinds of Realmic mechanisms (beads being a great one).  There was also one WOB I recall that indicated other Nathian cultures used Breaths and Awakening in wildly different ways than the Helandrian Awakening we've seen, with hints you could do thinks like awaken a Wheel to perpetually turn (This is a vague recollection so I will try to find the WOB for proper details).   We also had a thread a while back that had different mechanical designs for a driven wheel/engine using standard (non-Ettmetal) Allomancy, using cyclic pushes.  

Yes, indeed. But speaking of Awakened mechanisms, sure, they can be made to work perpetually, but the problem is that the materials that they are built from would eventually wear out and  break. What is more, the more durable materials are very difficult and expensive to Awaken, and, of course, once the  Awakener responsible is gone those Breaths are locked out of  reach pretty much forever. So, I really wouldn't expect such contraptions to be in a particularly wide use. Human-powered Allomancy might work, I suppose, but are there enough Coinshots and Lurchers for it to be a practical proposition?

 

On 19.12.2019 at 5:29 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

In fact, I'm recruiting Scadrians en masse for this project anyway; their magic works independently of their planet.  Of course I can recruit locally too. Spren things for the Rosharan CR for example. But there's gonna be Scadrians everywhere in this project. 

There aren't that many Scadrians, though, and only a fraction of them are Metalborn. Once they get the medallion mass production industry up-and-running, sure, but then you won't really need Scadrians themselves either.

 

On 19.12.2019 at 5:29 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

As for Sel, I think something could be done with ettmetal leecher insulation. Maybe someone could even find a way to harness all that free Investiture for fuel or propulsion.  Again,  research is ongoing.

Indeed, and it seems like the Ire have already started the work of safely harnessing the Dor investiture back in SH, they just didn't think about applying it to propulsion.

 

21 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The problem of trade did not readily occur to me, though I did wonder about funding sources. And of course the way to get investors is by providing self interest.  Scadrial as an industrial planet with a dearth of population needs 2 things, cheap labor and raw materials.

I don't see any dearth of raw materials on Scadrial, quite the contrary. And lack of cheap labor is likely to be beneficial for their technological progress, as they'd be highly motivated to invent labour-saving machines.

Desirable imports at the time of Mistborn Era 2 :

from Roshar soulcast aluminium, gems and possibly shell material from large crustaceans. It should be light and durable and could be used instead of plastics until those are discovered and industrially produced. Exports: all manner of mechanisms and finished products. In fact, I find it more than a little implausible that we haven't seen anything that Cosmere-savvy readers could identify as a Scadrian import in SA so far, even though the characters are unaware.

from Nalthis: dyes and spices, possibly also fabrics. Exports, as above. I'd also like to see some unobtrusive evidence of Nalthian imports on Roshar.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder why the Horneaters aren't filthy rich, because all this trade should have been going through them.

We have no clue what Sel might currently have or need.

Threnody would need to _import_ silver, not export it! But again, not sure what they could offer in return. Maybe somebody figures out how to trap their Shades in fabrials and make them do work, at some point... They seem to be much more loosely tied to the planet than normal, if they could threaten the Ire in interstellar space and therefore trivial to remove somewhere else.

 

[+Oltux72]

17 minutes ago, Isilel said:

From what we have seen, the interstellar cognitive space is level, so no need to lay railways tracks and also no particular need to fly. So, a "train" consisting of a powerful vehicle tugging a lot of wagons would be best for interstellar transportation in bulk.

1. Friction. A horse can pull a fairly large train on level ground, while it is limited to one waggon on a road.
2. Interoperability. You do not want to operate a facility for repacking stuff between subastrals or at their edge, as supplying them would suck.

17 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Nor do I see Shards lowering themselves to actively participate in such endeaviors. If they want to favor interstellar trade they can just make sure that their perpendicularities are conveniently accessible to the worldhoppers via waterways and make it possible to use their magic systems off-world.

Not just off world. But usable by off-worlders. An aviar or an aether can be exported.

17 minutes ago, Isilel said:

These may be very different from each other. We know nothing about Silverlight - it might be built from materials imported from the physical realm. Riino likely built his lighthouse from manifested materials,

Why do you think he built it himself? The lighthouses are common at the tips of peninsulas. They likely predate Riino. He just rented one or took the job.

17 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Yes, indeed. But speaking of Awakened mechanisms, sure, they can be made to work perpetually, but the problem is that the materials that they are built from would eventually wear out and  break. What is more, the more durable materials are very difficult and expensive to Awaken, and, of course, once the  Awakener responsible is gone those Breaths are locked out of  reach pretty much forever.

Can you awaken while you are a Cognitive Shadow?

17 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I don't see any dearth of raw materials on Scadrial, quite the contrary. And lack of cheap labor is likely to be beneficial for their technological progress, as they'd be highly motivated to invent labour-saving machines.

Right. And political conditions are already prerevolutionary. You really do not want to introduce cheap foreign labor into that mess.

17 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Desirable imports at the time of Mistborn Era 2 :

from Roshar soulcast aluminium, gems and possibly shell material from large crustaceans. It should be light and durable and could be used instead of plastics until those are discovered and industrially produced. Exports: all manner of mechanisms and finished products. In fact, I find it more than a little implausible that we haven't seen anything that Cosmere-savvy readers could identify as a Scadrian import in SA so far, even though the characters are unaware.

Notum's spyglass? Mraiześ weapons?

Any bulk metal could also come from Elantris.

17 minutes ago, Isilel said:

from Nalthis: dyes and spices, possibly also fabrics. Exports, as above. I'd also like to see some unobtrusive evidence of Nalthian imports on Roshar.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder why the Horneaters aren't filthy rich, because all this trade should have been going through them.

The spren are running the trade I suppose.

17 minutes ago, Isilel said:

We have no clue what Sel might currently have or need.

Anything that AonDor can make. They will also want spices and dyes. Scientific instruments, too.

 

21 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

I dont see the danger.  They are already making the trip through whatever temporal effects are in play, so traversing it in a vehicle shouldnt change the function; I cant say there arent dangers and I have no idea how time went for Vivenna on her trip (from an objective reference or her own subjective one) but the existence of established trade routes indicates that worldhoppers have already managed to overcome them. 

Or wait, are you suggesting that there is some speed-dependent relativity going the way a Physical Realm FTL would?  That would be...interesting and possible but I have no data on the temporal terrain of the CR, or its potential relativistic effects.

If enough people think that it is a long trip from Roshar to Scadrial it probably will be a long trip, regardless of your speed in the CR. So indeed your speed may lengthen the distance. That is not really something relativity does, but it is close. I mean its geometry must be non-eucleadean if you can squash a globe onto a flat surface without distorting shapes.
Hence I would strive for increased capacity in terms of freight rather than higher speeds. Its likelier to work.

[Bigmikey357]

The cheap labor aspect is only necessary in the building of the infrastructure in whatever form that eventually takes. Once built there is no need for such a huge labor force.

I should have clarified in my previous comment.  The raw materials in Scadrial's case would not be a problem.  The labor force would be the sticking point for them. As for the limited amount of Metalborn, I would embark on an aggressive recruiting campaign to lure them to my business venture if medallion tech isn't already advanced enough for my purposes.

As for Shardic participation,  all I'd ask of one is to open up some perpendicularities or at the very least not to interfere with the project. I would not ask for active participation or for help in management though I could not stop them from taking a hand if they so wished it. I'd like to think that once it's up and running enough of the Shardic community would find it beneficial to the Cosmere as a whole to want to keep it from being interfered with by their more malevolent members,  though I admit that could be wishful thinking. 

Quick note, me and Silverlight definitely need to have a conversation regarding this project,  particularly covering the properties of the CR and how they might relate to the building of permanent structures there. There's going to be so much legwork involved. The only good thing that I don't have to worry about is land grants,  at least in regions with less busy CR presence.  I'd almost say I'd do Roshar last because of the Spren. Maybe if you could store the Dor in gems like you can stormlight... Hmmmm.

[+Invocation]

Trains would be theoretically ideal, especially if you could make it to where the steam of the engine has a place to condense back into water, since then you have easy water supplies. Then, each time you stop by Roshar, pick up some Soulcast coal and you're good.

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, Invocation said:

Trains would be theoretically ideal, especially if you could make it to where the steam of the engine has a place to condense back into water, since then you have easy water supplies. Then, each time you stop by Roshar, pick up some Soulcast coal and you're good.

Scadrial already has gasoline engines. That would avoid the issue of water. The energy density of the fuel would also be favorable, as well as the higher efficiency of the engine.

[Quantus]

On 12/21/2019 at 7:41 AM, Oltux72 said:

If enough people think that it is a long trip from Roshar to Scadrial it probably will be a long trip, regardless of your speed in the CR. So indeed your speed may lengthen the distance. That is not really something relativity does, but it is close. I mean its geometry must be non-eucleadean if you can squash a globe onto a flat surface without distorting shapes.

Hence I would strive for increased capacity in terms of freight rather than higher speeds. Its likelier to work.

Interesting possibility.  WOB says that spaces within the cognitive realm dont form at all until people start thinking about them (ie moons etc) but dont really get going until people actually get there.  But that means something definitely starts happening as soon as a reasonably large population starts to think about it, and if they all thought the travel time should take a long time then I could easily see the terrain stalling them out there longer, even if it doesnt create the same amount of topography a populated area would.  I also wonder how easy it would be to create area's in the Cognitive Realm that dont have any corresponding piece of the Physical, the same way Spren can exist from Ideas without a native Physical form.  

[Karger]

I think planes are almost certainly your best option.  Too much of the CR is ocean for trains or cars.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

@Bigmikey357 so I have a question that might help your concept a little . We know that places in the Cognitive Realm are kind of reversed to the Physical Realm. Places in the PR that are land are beads in CR and places are water in the PR translate into Land in the CR. Has anybody Considered what Space is like in the CR . What if Space is like Ice could one skate or walk over it ? That would be one way to world hop without using perpendicularity . Provided you had a way to get to the Cognitive Realm in the first place. Ie ( transportation surge , Oathgate , or similar power or device .)  Since we see The ones above move thru space ., there must be a corresponding position to the Cognitive Realm . And since solids are liquids in CR what would space be ? Might be you could have a train going thru Space in the Cr? What do you think .