Do you think it's possible for Adolin to bring Mayalaran back from the dead?

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

9 minutes ago, robardin said:

Whoa, not sure where you get this image of what the Surge of Abrasion and its use in combat from an Edgedancer would be like, but Lift is only unpracticed at it, which the Fused (and Szeth) are not. As Nalan himself said to Lift, as one who has seen many an Edgedancer in action in his time,

Bowling ball? I wish I could get my ball to move like that!

I’m not sure if they could use shardplate or not but I saw them like a hocky player if they had thier plate on , and Like Tron if they had thier plate off. I could totally see Adolin in windstance slicing thru Tons of Fused or Smoke Stance Fight a duel with one Fused head up .

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Mage of Lirigon said:

Adolin is primarily a warrior, unlike Fen and Gawx. He can lead if he has to, but that hasn't been what he's focused on. That can change of course, but frankly, it would be a waste. Adolin is one of the best swordsmen in the world, they need folks like him to be Radiants.

He enjoys dueling, not fighting. There is a difference. Again, you and Calderis are perfectly entitled to believe Adolin would be better suited on the front lines of a battlefield, but I still maintain it is a false equivalency to state that it is either that or death. We have seen him on numerous occasions work on infrastructure and be very effective and happy doing so. We have seen him work tactically from behind and be fine with it just as much as up front. We have seen him work with his subjects, and accomplish clandestine and political goals. So I do not think that Adolin being unpowered but effective should be dismissed as impossible. 

[Mage of Lirigon]

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

He enjoys dueling, not fighting. There is a difference.

It's not a matter of enjoyment. Adolin is a great fighter in practical situations as well, he's not going to quit fighting because it's not all duels in an arena anymore.

 

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Again, you and Calderis are perfectly entitled to believe Adolin would be better suited on the front lines of a battlefield, but I still maintain it is a false equivalency to state that it is either that or death. We have seen him on numerous occasions work on infrastructure and be very effective and happy doing so. We have seen him work tactically from behind and be fine with it just as much as up front. We have seen him work with his subjects, and accomplish clandestine and political goals. So I do not think that Adolin being unpowered but effective should be dismissed as impossible. 

What Calderis said was that Adolin will either become a Radiant to better fight, he'll become sidelined, or he'll die.

My opinion is that keeping a great warrior like Adolin sidelined is a waste. There are any number of people who could do tactical or background work just as well as Adolin, but a very limited number who can fight as well as he can. Adolin becoming a Radiant is simply logical. More to the point, Ican't imagine Adolin himself being OK with retiring from the frontlines.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Mage of Lirigon

[Pathfinder]

19 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

It's not a matter of enjoyment. Adolin is a great fighter in practical situations as well, he's not going to quit fighting because it's not all duels in an arena anymore.

You said he was a warrior. He is not a warrior. He is a duelist. There is a difference. 

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What Calderis said was that Adolin will either become a Radiant to better fight, he'll become sidelined, or he'll die.

And I think that is a false equivalency. Adolin is not only a combatant, and is not defined solely by that. Otherwise why is Dalinar leading? He is a warrior. He was defined by his capacity to fight. The man's face is all messed up from all the fights he has been in. So is the same dichotomy applied to him? He has to be upfront on the battle field to be effective? That disregards his tactical genius, and his actions as a politician. I take issue with artificially creating an either or situation, and then stating that proves something. That Adolin can only be effective in combat. People can only be effective in a Desolation in combat. People are only effective in a desolation in combat if they have powers. Therefore Adolin must get powers or he will be ineffective in a desolation. It is like saying there are 10 drinks on the table. The only drink that is good is coca cola and water. Adolin wouldn't drink something that is flat, so he can only drink coca cola. So anyone that says he would drink gatorade wouldn't happen. For me, it is not so binary.

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My opinion is that keeping a great warrior like Adolin sidelined is a waste. There are any number of people who could do tactical or background work just as well as Adolin, but a very limited number who can fight as well as he can. Adolin becoming a Radiant is simply logical. More to the point, Ican't imagine Adolin himself being OK with retiring from the frontlines.

By that argument there are any number of people who can fight just as well, if not better than Adolin. They should bond a spren then. (and there most definitely are). That forgets the uniqueness of each spren and their reason for bonding. That forgets the situations the characters are put in. That forgets the character him or herself. It breaks down to Adolin has a sword and he is good at swinging it, so he has to be on the battlefield. And if he has to be on the battlefield, then he has to have powers otherwise he will die. I do not believe it is so cut and dry. You and Calderis as I said are more than free to prefer Adolin on the battlefield, but that does not intrinsically mean that he will fail as a leader, and certainly does not intrinsically mean he has to have powers to be successful. Dalinar, a blood thirsty warrior, is now a leader and a politician. Why doesn't he have to be on the front lines? Why doesn't he have to have the most lethal surges? Why is he solving problems with the pen instead of the sword? If it has to be such a cut and dry dichotomy, then why is Dalinar the biggest exception to the rule? Or how about Shallan, a scholar is suddenly on the front lines? Or Jasnah? I do not believe it has to be one way or no way. 

TLDR:

People can believe Adolin would work better without powers, and he not be sidelined or killed because of it. And people thinking Adolin would work better without powers takes nothing from those who thinks he would work better with powers. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Mage of Lirigon]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

You said he was a warrior. He is not a warrior. He is a duelist. There is a difference. 

...We've literally seen Adolin fight in war and kill people as a soldier. He is a warrior. To make it seem like he's an athlete or something is highly disingenious.

 

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And I think that is a false equivalency. Adolin is not only a combatant, and is not defined solely by that. Otherwise why is Dalinar leading? He is a warrior. He was defined by his capacity to fight. The man's face is all messed up from all the fights he has been in. So is the same dichotomy applied to him? He has to be upfront on the battle field to be effective? That disregards his tactical genius, and his actions as a politician. I take issue with artificially creating an either or situation, and then stating that proves something. That Adolin can only be effective in combat. People can only be effective in a Desolation in combat. People are only effective in a desolation in combat if they have powers. Therefore Adolin must get powers or he will be ineffective in a desolation. It is like saying there are 10 drinks on the table. The only drink that is good is coca cola and water. Adolin wouldn't drink something that is flat, so he can only drink coca cola. So anyone that says he would drink gatorade wouldn't happen. For me, it is not so binary.

Dalinar used to be a warrior. He stepped back from the frontlines for a variety of reasons, not least of which was his age. Adolin has none of Dalinar's reasons for stepping back. Adolin is many things, but his role in the story has been as a warrior. From what we've seen of Adolin's character thus far, I cannot imagine him stepping back while he can fight on the frontlines, which is exactly why I believe he should be a Radiant

 

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By that argument there are any number of people who can fight just as well, if not better than Adolin. They should bond a spren then. (and there most definitely are).

From what we've seen, there are precious few humans on the coalitions side who can fight on Adolin's level, and those are all Radiants already.

 

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Or how about Shallan, a scholar is suddenly on the front lines? Or Jasnah? I do not believe it has to be one way or no way. 

Shallan is more a spy than a fighter though. Jasnah can fight, but that's not really the role that she has, which is exactly my point. Adolin can do many things, but his role is as a warrior first and foremost. Maybe that can change, like it did with Dalinar, but Adolin isn't there yet. We literally see him turn down a position that would require him to step back from the frontlines.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Mage of Lirigon

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Mage of Lirigon said:

...We've literally seen Adolin fight in war and kill people as a soldier. He is a warrior. To make it seem like he's an athlete or something is highly disingenious.

There are plenty of threads across the 17th shard referencing how Adolin sees himself as a duelist. Not a soldier, not a hunter. As a duelist. Two men on equal footing, pitting skill one on one is where Adolin feels alive. Not on the battlefield. 

Just now, Mage of Lirigon said:

Dalinar used to be a warrior. He stepped back from the frontlines for a variety of reasons, not least of which was his age. Adolin has none of Dalinar's reasons for stepping back. Adolin is many things, but his role in the story has been as a warrior. From what we've seen of Adolin's character ths far, I cannot imagine him stepping back while he can fight on the frontlines, which is exactly why I believe he should be a Radiant

But your argument was because Adolin is good with the blade, he should be on the front lines. The radiants need fighters. Dalinar is an amazing fighter with the blade. He should be on the front lines. But he is not. So why should that be limited to Dalinar?

Just now, Mage of Lirigon said:

From what we've seen, there are precious few humans on the coalitions side who can fight on Adolin's level, and those are all Radiants already.

So then why isn't Dalinar fighting on the front lines? So Fen's son doesn't count? The thaylen shardbearer doesn't count? Kadash doesn't count? All of Dalinar's officers don't count? If the only requirement for being on a battlefield is being good with a blade, why don't any of those people count? If the only thing a person can do during a desolation is fight, and the only way to survive fighting during a desolation is powers, then why don't any of those people get powers? 

My point is not that Adolin wouldn't get powers, or wouldn't be on the battlefield. My point is that is not only one of two possibilities, the other being death. 

Just now, Mage of Lirigon said:

Shallan is more a spy than a fighter though.

Now you are getting into semantics. Shallan had a blade, and was on the front lines fighting enemies. Shallan is a "scholar". Not a "warrior". 

Just now, Mage of Lirigon said:

Jasnah can fight, but that's not really the role that she has, which is exactly my point. Adolin can do many things, but his role is as a warrior first and foremost.

And again, he sees his role as duelist, not warrior. And there is a difference. And also once again, even if he did see himself as a warrior, as per Dalinar, that does not preclude him from still having that warrior spirit, but being a general and tactician. 

Just now, Mage of Lirigon said:

Maybe that can change, like it did with Dalinar, but Adolin isn't there yet. We literally see him turn down a position that would require him to step back from the frontlines.

No where in the books did Adolin say the reason he did not want to become king was because he wouldn't get to fight. Can you point me to where that is?

[ftl]

I think Adolin is going to get more radiant powers, but that won't put him on par with the "main characters", because they'll all be advancing in their radiant oaths as well. I think we're going to see escalation. More and more squires, more radiants.

Power up or be left behind.

This also might tie in to how Ashyn was destroyed. Sure, when we have a half-dozen or maybe a few dozen radiants, the power doesn't seem so bad. What about when we have hundreds? Thousands? And they're fighting hundreds or thousands more? And searching for more and more ways to make stormlight more and more destructive. World War Radiant.

It's gonna be bad. Real bad.

And at that level of power, "radiant bond" might become table stakes.

And Adolin might be the catalyst for how it gets so bad. If Adolin manages to "heal" Maya - and in a way that provides at least a path to heal more and more deadeyes - then suddenly there's a rush to heal deadeyes via bonds. And then some living spren decide that the recreance wasn't a mass murder, just a temporary hibernation, and that lets them form bonds more freely.

If it goes this way, war by the end of book 5 is going to be completely unrecognizable.

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

  It's sort of a rule of the genre that the side characters have two options in terms of power level: be weak but still a relatively important part of the story, or be strong but off doing their own thing independently of the main heroes.

What genre are you talking about? Sounds like superhero comics genre to me, rather than epic fantasy. And frankly, that's one of the reasons why I find those boring, along with constant reboots and the fact that nobody of significance ever really dies.

In the past they had thousands of Radiants and all the Heralds fighting against the Fused, the thunderclasts and the Unmade and it still wasn't enough to prevent the collapse of civilization every time. Now, you expect a handful of new Radiants to somehow manage better than that? Sorry, that would be super-contrived. It already strains plausibility that they won't be permanently squashed between books 3 and 4.

 

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

  I think we are going to see this start to shake out - the Bridge 4 Radiants, Malata, and others are not going to be parts of the story hardly at all while Navani and Dalinar stay on screen.

Says who? Bridge 4 was on-screen a lot in OB and is certainly going to be present in all important battles. And we all know why Malata stayed on the outskirts.

 

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

 The story needs an Alfred to be good.  It needs our main characters to have someone that is a non-hero to fall back on.  Someone who isn't a bad person, but just isn't up to that role of fighting evil on a day to day basis.

Radiants are not masked vigilants, who tend to act alone and have the luxury of either facing mooks or having one-on-ones with their nemesises. There have to be a lot of Radiants to do any good and they have to support each other with their different abilities. If Adolin became king, he could have remained normal and been an important character with lots of interesting challenges to overcome. That's not what happened, however, and the whole plot of Maya waking up would only be worth it if she regains her memories and finally fills in the rest of the picture concerning the Recreance, as well as convinces the still recalcitrant spren to cooperate. And given that Lift is currently a pacifist, it would be great to see what more traditional Edgedancers are capable of in battle.

 

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

To me, that is the role of characters like Adolin or Navani.  They make what the main heroes do more meaningful by contrast.  You see two people who are both super competent in their own ways but just aren't right for the jobs that are done by people like Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, etc. 

Navani as a talented artifabrian is qualified to be a useful supporting character. Adolin as a Highprince would need to provide military leadership - and as a young man and a great fighter, he would be expected to lead from the front. We have seen his skills on the battlefield and his training as a military commander - we don't quite  know what he can offer off it. As such, he could really profit from having stormlight and surges.

A lot of jobs that the main Radiants did until now would hopefully be taken over by minor  Radiants, because there is a lot to do, much more than a handful of even super-powered people can believably accomplish. And having more Radiants with the surge of Regrowth would be particularly helpful, because there are going to be a lot of people to heal and crops to force-grow to feed them (Lift can't do that last, BTW, because of how she gains investiture - it is a zero-sum game with her, as Wyndle helpfully explained in Edgedancer).

@Pathfinder:

Fen, Gawx, etc., don't have to become Radiants, but they should need Radiants protecting them, IMHO, because if I was the Fused, I would take a page from Taravangian's book and start assassinating rulers of the anti-Odium coalition, as well as their key generals, administrators and scholars. Ditto destroy Tashikk spanreed exchange.

[Mage of Lirigon]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

There are plenty of threads across the 17th shard referencing how Adolin sees himself as a duelist. Not a soldier, not a hunter. As a duelist. Two men on equal footing, pitting skill one on one is where Adolin feels alive. Not on the battlefield. 
No where in the books did Adolin say the reason he did not want to become king was because he wouldn't get to fight. Can you point me to where that is?

Again, I'm not talking about what Adolin sees himself as, or what he enjoys or doesn't enjoy. I'm talking about his profession, what he is actually doing. Adolin is a warrior. He fights for Alethkar as a profession.

 

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But your argument was because Adolin is good with the blade, he should be on the front lines. The radiants need fighters. Dalinar is an amazing fighter with the blade. He should be on the front lines. But he is not. So why should that be limited to Dalinar?

As I stated, Dalinar stepped back from the frontlines for various reasons, such as being a little long in the tooth for fighting and the fact he is more valuable as a general and politician than as a fighter. Adolin has neither of those reasons.

 

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So then why isn't Dalinar fighting on the front lines? So Fen's son doesn't count? The thaylen shardbearer doesn't count? Kadash doesn't count? All of Dalinar's officers don't count? If the only requirement for being on a battlefield is being good with a blade, why don't any of those people count? If the only thing a person can do during a desolation is fight, and the only way to survive fighting during a desolation is powers, then why don't any of those people get powers? 

I never said the only thing a person could do during a Desolation is fight, I said that the coalition would be best served by Adolin on the front lines. I also never said that if you fight without powers you'd die. As one of the premier fighters of the coalition, the best use of Adolin's skill is fighting Fused, and only Radiants can do that, ergo Adolin should be a Radiant. 

 

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Now you are getting into semantics. Shallan had a blade, and was on the front lines fighting enemies. Shallan is a "scholar". Not a "warrior". 

A Blade she can barely use. And most of the time she was on the frontlines her activities consisted of using Lightweaving or Soulcasting in a support role, not direct combat.

 

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And again, he sees his role as duelist, not warrior. And there is a difference. And also once again, even if he did see himself as a warrior, as per Dalinar, that does not preclude him from still having that warrior spirit, but being a general and tactician. 

I'll repeat, it's not what he sees his role as, but what he actually does.

[Pathfinder]

27 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Again, I'm not talking about what Adolin sees himself as, or what he enjoys or doesn't enjoy. I'm talking about his profession, what he is actually doing. Adolin is a warrior. He fights for Alethkar as a profession.

Adolin's profession is highprince. Highprinces rule countries. Not all highprinces fight from the front. Dalinar is actually seen as unusual in that regard. 

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As I stated, Dalinar stepped back from the frontlines for various reasons, such as being a little long in the tooth for fighting and the fact he is more valuable as a general and politician than as a fighter. Adolin has neither of those reasons.

Dalinar stepped back because that is what Alethkar needed him to do. Dalinar bashing faces in is not going to bring together the coalition. He became what the world needed him to become. 

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I never said the only thing a person could do during a Desolation is fight, I said that the coalition would be best served by Adolin on the front lines. I also never said that if you fight without powers you'd die. As one of the premier fighters of the coalition, the best use of Adolin's skill is fighting Fused, and only Radiants can do that, ergo Adolin should be a Radiant. 

I responded to what Calderis said. You joined that response. Calderis was stating that unless Adolin got powers, he would end up irrelevant, or dead. That is what I am arguing against. In your last post you even confirmed that that was what he said. If you are not saying that, then why did you join that line of conversation?

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A Blade she can barely use. And most of the time she was on the frontlines her activities consisted of using Lightweaving or Soulcasting in a support role, not direct combat.

Calderis made it an either or situation. My point is if it is an either or situation, then why is Shallan and Jasnah on the front lines. It does not matter if they poke someone with a stick. They are scholars on the front lines fighting and being effective. Just like a "warrior" can be effective in an administrative capacity like Dalinar. it does not intrinsically mean death for Adolin. 

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I'll repeat, it's not what he sees his role as, but what he actually does.

And I will repeat I disagree with the either or statement that Adolin must fight, or he will be irrelevant/dead. That is what I am discussing. So what are you discussing if you agree with me?

Edited December 23, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Mage of Lirigon]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Adolin's profession is highprince. Highprinces rule countries. Not all highprinces fight from the front. Dalinar is actually seen as unusual in that regard. 

Adolin being highprince is a recent development, and we'll have to see what that changes for him. But from what we've seen of his character thus far, I doubt being highprince will mean he won't fight or anything, especially since he's effectively highprince of nothing at the moment.

 

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Dalinar stepped back because that is what Alethkar needed him to do. Dalinar bashing faces in is not going to bring together the coalition. He became what the world needed him to become. 

Which is exactly my point. The world needed Dalinar to be a politician, so that's what he became. If the world needs anything from Adolin, it's for him to be a swordsman, and the best way for him to use his world class swordsmanship is to become a Radiant.

 

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I responded to what Calderis said. You joined that response. Calderis was stating that unless Adolin got powers, he would end up irrelevant, or dead. That is what I am arguing against. In your last post you even confirmed that that was what he said. If you are not saying that, then why did you join that line of conversation?

I do agree with Calderis. If Adolin does not become a Radiant, he'll definitely either be killed or he'll become irrelevant, i.e. lose his pagetime.

There's no need to spend pages on Adolin if he's not in the thick of things, and he won't be if he's not a Radiant. Thus far, Brandon has positioned Adolin in situations like Kholinar and Shadesmar, but as the story continues, if Adolin isn't a Radiant, we'll see less and less of him because it would become more and more implausible for him to be in situations like that.

 

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Calderis made it an either or situation. My point is if it is an either or situation, then why is Shallan and Jasnah on the front lines. It does not matter if they poke someone with a stick. They are scholars on the front lines fighting and being effective. Just like a "warrior" can be effective in an administrative capacity like Dalinar. it does not intrinsically mean death for Adolin. 

Shallan and Jasnah were on the frontlines despite not really being warriors because their status as Radiants gives them things only they can do. Adolin doesn't have that advantage.

 

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And I will repeat I disagree with the either or statement that Adolin must fight, or we will be irrelevant/dead. That is what I am discussing. So what are you discussing if you agree with me?

I don't agree with you, what did I say that gives you the impression I do?

[Pathfinder]

19 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Adolin being highprince is a recent development, and we'll have to see what that changes for him. But from what we've seen of his character thus far, I doubt being highprince will mean he won't fight or anything, especially since he's effectively highprince of nothing at the moment.

 

Which is exactly my point. The world needed Dalinar to be a politician, so that's what he became. If the world needs anything from Adolin, it's for him to be a swordsman, and the best way for him to use his world class swordsmanship is to become a Radiant.

 

I do agree with Calderis. If Adolin does not become a Radiant, he'll definitely either be killed or he'll become irrelevant, i.e. lose his pagetime.

There's no need to spend pages on Adolin if he's not in the thick of things, and he won't be if he's not a Radiant. Thus far, Brandon has positioned Adolin in situations like Kholinar and Shadesmar, but as the story continues, if Adolin isn't a Radiant, we'll see less and less of him because it would become more and more implausible for him to be in situations like that.

 

Shallan and Jasnah were on the frontlines despite not really being warriors because their status as Radiants gives them things only they can do. Adolin doesn't have that advantage.

 

I don't agree with you, what did I say that gives you the impression I do?

Then why did you just say before you did not say that? Can you please stick to a stance so I can adequately reply? Do you or do you not think Adolin will die if he does anything other than get powers and fight on the front lines?

[Mage of Lirigon]

12 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Then why did you just say before you did not say that? Can you please stick to a stance so I can adequately reply? Do you or do you not think Adolin will die if he does anything other than get powers and fight on the front lines?

I think you may have misunderstood me. My stance was always in agreement with Calderis, that Adolin will either become a Radiant, become irrelevant, or he'll die. It's not Radiance or death, it's Radiance, irrelevance or death.

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I think you may have misunderstood me. My stance was always in agreement with Calderis, that Adolin will either become a Radiant, become irrelevant, or he'll die. It's not Radiance or death, it's Radiance, irrelevance or death.

Then to reiterate, that to me is reductionist. You prefer Adolin on the front lines and with power. Great. Totally respect that. But that does not mean the theories that place him without powers means he will be irrelevant, and will die. You may personally enjoy a narrative with him on the front lines and with powers, but that does not mean that is the only proper course for the character. So I have an issue with the binary nature of that statement. It is an us versus them, either or statement. I think the theories that would rather Adolin have no powers, or Maya awaken partially are valid and have just as much narrative potential. Both theories (for adolin with power, and for adolin without power) can co-exist. 

Side note, I really really am tired of the whole more PoV or more page time equals good for a character. Jasnah barely got either across all three novels, and she is a fan favorite just as much as any other character. I have read characters in books that take up 90 percent and I cannot stand them. I have read characters that say one line, and I love them. Can we please stop using the argument of measuring the number of PoVs or perceived page time when discussing theories and stories we enjoy or not? That if a story does not result in x number of view points, or x number of pages, then it is a bad story? I really do not see how it helps in any way. 

I will go even one further. What does someone saying they don't think Adolin will get powers causes? If Brandon is going to write Adolin with powers, then someone writing a theory that he doesn't will not change that. Just like if Brandon is going to write Adolin without powers, a person writing a theory of Adolin with powers is not going to change that. So someone can measure the PoV and page length all they want, but if Brandon decides to go in a certain direction, then that is the direction it is going to go. Regardless is one or a hundred people say otherwise or agree. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Mage of Lirigon]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Then to reiterate, that to me is reductionist. You prefer Adolin on the front lines and with power. Great. Totally respect that. But that does not mean the theories that place him without powers means he will be irrelevant, and will die. You may personally enjoy a narrative with him on the front lines and with powers, but that does not mean that is the only proper course for the character. So I have an issue with the binary nature of that statement. It is an us versus them, either or statement.

Considering the role Adolin has served in the story thus far, I really can't imagine how continuing on without powers will result in him continuing with the amount of page time he has been afforded up until now. 

 

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I think the theories that would rather Adolin have no powers, or Maya awaken partially are valid and have just as much narrative potential. 

I'm really not a fan of this partial bond theory. We already have 3 Radiants with powers outside the norm.

 

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Side note, I really really am tired of the whole more PoV or more page time equals good for a character. Jasnah barely got either across all three novels, and she is a fan favorite just as much as any other character. I have read characters in books that take up 90 percent and I cannot stand them. I have read characters that say one line, and I love them. Can we please stop using the argument of measuring the number of PoVs or perceived page time when discussing theories and stories we enjoy or not? I really do not see how it helps in any way. 

In cases where a characters page time would sharply decrease, it's hard to argue against that meaning a loss of relevance to the main story.

[Pathfinder]

16 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Considering the role Adolin has served in the story thus far, I really can't imagine how continuing on without powers will result in him continuing with the amount of page time he has been afforded up until now. 

I do not see the value of a character tied to page time. I tie the value of the character with what is done with that page time. Jasnah, Renarin, Moash, Rock, Rlain, Fen, Rysn (I could go on), all have gotten little page time, but are beloved characters and have done amazing things with the space they have. Any of them getting more pages or less means nothing to me so long as what is done with those pages counts. The moment between Renarin and Jasnah is a whole lot of people's favorite moments across all the novels, but those two characters are among the ones with the least page time. So I guess that moment was a bad narrative then. 

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I'm really not a fan of this partial bond theory. We already have 3 Radiants with powers outside the norm.

Totally respect that you prefer your theory to that. I wish you luck with your theory!

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In cases where a characters page time would sharply decrease, it's hard to argue against that meaning a loss of relevance to the main story.

It is a logical fallacy. You do not know for a fact that one narrative will lead to less pages than another. You do not know for a fact that more pages equals better. So to say a theory is going to lead to a bad narrative based on these two criteria is problematic. I totally get it is not the story you would like to see. I totally get you like the image in your head of Adolin the Radiant. And I totally get you have theories regarding tidbits in the narrative that lead you to believe Maya will be awakened. But to say because you do not like the idea of Adolin not having powers means it will be a bad story because of less page time is assuming multiple absolutes that you have no knowledge of nor can predict. Adolin can have no powers and end up a main character with all the page time in the book for all you know. You are disregarding possibilities because of what you perceive is the only way. All I am saying is it is not the only way. 

And I really really think all this measuring of PoVs and page length is damaging for discussion of theories. I worked really hard on my theory regarding Adolin and a bondsmith, but because some people think it would focus on Dalinar instead of Adolin, it is a bad narrative, and it cannot go that way. That to me disregards the information I put into the theory, and the narrative potential therein. All because in their mind, it results in less pages. As if such a thing can truly be measured before a book is even published. 

So for those that put effort into their theories of how the narrative could be really great for Adolin without powers, or a partial bond, it is really great to know that their theories are not valid because the arbitrary page number in someone else's head is not high enough. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Mage of Lirigon]

17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I do not see the value of a character tied to page time. I tie the value of the character with what is done with that page time. Jasnah, Renarin, Moash, Rock, Rlain, Fen, Rysn (I could go on), all have gotten little page time, but are beloved characters and have done amazing things with the space they have. Any of them getting more pages or less means nothing to me so long as what is done with those pages counts. 

All of these characters were created to have plots in the story with little page time. Which is fine for them. Adolin has the most page time aside from Dalinar, Shallan and Kaladin. I find it hard to believe a reduction would mean Adolin is still getting a relevance in the plot.

 

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Totally respect that you prefer your theory to that. I wish you luck with your theory!

Thank you.

 

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It is a logical fallacy. You do not know for a fact that one narrative will lead to less pages than another. You do not know for a fact that more pages equals better. So to say a theory is going to lead to a bad narrative based on these two criteria is problematic. I totally get it is not the story you would like to see. I totally get you like the image in your head of Adolin the Radiant. And I totally get you have theories regarding tidbits in the narrative that lead you to believe Maya will be awakened. But to say because you do not like the idea of Adolin not having powers means it will be a bad story because of less page time is assuming multiple absolutes that you have no knowledge of nor can predict. Adolin can have no powers and end up a main characters with all the page time for all you know. You are disregarding possibilities because of what you perceive is the only way. All I am saying is it is not the only way. 

You're putting words in my mouth. What I said was that less page time = Adolin's relevance to the main plot would decrease because he could not fulfill the role he already has in the story, not anything about "bad" narratives. I'm not assuming anything, I'm working off of what we have seen of Adolin's character already. What new role could he conceivably be given that would allow him to continue with the relevance he has already?

Edited December 23, 2019 by Mage of Lirigon

[Calderis]

Adolin was a duelist, and preferred the arena... In his own narrative he's said he now prefers the battlefield and has become a soldier. 

His activities at Thaylen field, throwing himself into fights that he has no chance in kind of prove the point. 

He's the type that leads from the front. Throwing soldiers into danger he's not willing to face himself isn't something he's going to do by choice. 

[Pathfinder]

26 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

All of these characters were created to have plots in the story with little page time. Which is fine for them. Adolin has the most page time aside from Dalinar, Shallan and Kaladin. I find it hard to believe a reduction would mean Adolin is still getting a relevance in the plot.

And yet Dalinar has the narrative of a leader without fighting and still has a large narrative impact. In oathbringer Dalinar did not physically fight a single fused, but his refusal of Odium is one of people's favorite scenes. Again, you assume that because of a certain narrative, the number of pages will reduce. You assume less pages mean less relevance to a plot. You assume it means a decrease in quality

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Thank you.

No problem. I have said repeatedly, in just about every single post I made. I totally get and respect you would like to see Adolin with powers. That there are aspects of the narrative that say to you he is reviving Maya. That is great. I wish you luck with it. But that still does not mean the people with theories of him without powers cannot be great narratives too. 

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You're putting words in my mouth. What I said was that less page time = Adolin's relevance to the main plot would decrease because he could not fulfill the role he already has in the story, not anything about "bad" narratives. I'm not assuming anything, I'm working off of what we have seen of Adolin's character already. What new role could he conceivably be given that would allow him to continue with the relevance he has already?

You assume any other narrative would result in less page time. For all you know it could result in more. But you are dismissing it because of this perception of numeric value. A numeric value that has no basis. We have characters across the entire spectrum. Characters with more page time, but less narrative importance. Characters that are main characters but with little page time. Characters with amazing moments with little to no page time. Characters with tons of page time but no huge moments. People were crazy about Adolin killing Sadeas. Went up and down about how this is a huge narrative, and will have tons of page time. It "ended" before the first part of Oathbringer. You are saying politics and leading would lead to less page time. Most of Dalinar's arc was regarding politics and leading and Oathbringer was his book. He was the main character for it. So you have two instances where one narrative everyone thought would result in tons of page time, did not, and one that you say would result in less page time, took up a large portion of the book. Now you may not like to read politics, which in that case, it does not matter how much page time the character got, the value of those pages were less for you. So once again, I do not think it is right to judge a theory because of an arbitrary number you pop in your head. And I say arbitrary because it is. There is not some table that lists narrative titles and has a page length next to it. There is not a chart to refer to to go, "ah this involves swords, that means it will take 30 pages". You are the one assigning the value. 

18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Adolin was a duelist, and preferred the arena... In his own narrative he's said he now prefers the battlefield and has become a soldier. 

His activities at Thaylen field, throwing himself into fights that he has no chance in kind of prove the point. 

He's the type that leads from the front. Throwing soldiers into danger he's not willing to face himself isn't something he's going to do by choice. 

Sooooooo I am guess him passing his blade to the thaylen shardplate wearer to fight the thunderclast doesn't count? Him ordering troops on how to hold the area, and so on does not count? Because if he is going to throw himself into combat no matter what, even when presented with a reason where he can be more effective in another way, then I guess we read different books. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Pathfinder

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

Does anybody Remember the battle of Thaylen city . Dalinar starts barking commands . Jasnah here , Shallan this , Lift and Szeth there . Who is the one person he left out ? Adolin !!! So Adolin was like I’ll figure out something to do . This it what Calderis and most of pro- Radiant guys are mainly getting at . Your talking about Thunderclast and Fused and. Unmade . We barely saw Fen or Navani cause they had no place thier . I’m not saying he can’t perfom another role and be effective . But is that what you would prefer to see . He spent 3 books building Adolin up as dualist and a soldier. And your saying you would rather see him set aside that momentum. And support in another Role and become like Queen Fen , Guax , ??? Having him run out that without Radiant healing and abilities will just get him killed ! Or Mayve he will go out there with no powers and whip chull , and that will make everyone happy ? If that is your hopes I respect that too . But I want  to see him Skating thru a battlefield like Tron slicing thru the legs of 20 Fused as he does . Without Powers he is not capable of keeping up with the Jones’s . Any bridge 4 squire will be 5 times as effective as him . But that’s not the biggest loss. The biggest loss is we won’t see how beautiful Maya is when reformed . I challenge anyone to tell me they don’t want to know how this works , they don’t want to know how to heal a dead eye ?! I’ll wait 

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Sooooooo I am guess him passing his blade to the thaylen shardplate wearer to fight the thunderclast doesn't count? Him ordering troops on how to hold the area, and so on does not count? Because if he is going to throw himself into combat no matter what, even when presented with a reason where he can be more effective in another way, then I guess we read different books. 

In every instance of those, except handing the blade off, he was in the thick of things. Leading from the front. And if he had his plate, do you think he'd have even considered handing Maya off?

He gave the blade to Hrdalm because the man had plate and could hopefully take a hit where he knew he couldn't. If that weren't the case, and you think Adolin would have willingly stepped back, you have a very different read of Adolin than I do. 

[Storm Lite]

I think Adolin will form a bond, but it will be a very different kind of bond.  I think instead of Maya bonding to him, I think he'll essentially bond to her to fill in the broken part of her.  He might get surges, or maybe he'll have a foot in the cognitive realm like Lift and will be able to access investiture in a different way.  If he dies (dropping in spoiler tag to be safe as I'm maybe veering into greater-Cosmere territory), 

Spoiler

I think he'll end up as a cognitive shadow and start to get involved with other areas of the Cosmere. Or maybe he'll qualify to be a new Herald.

 

[Pathfinder]

22 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Does anybody Remember the battle of Thaylen city . Dalinar starts barking commands . Jasnah here , Shallan this , Lift and Szeth there . Who is the one person he left out ? Adolin !!! So Adolin was like I’ll figure out something to do . This it what Calderis and most of pro- Radiant guys are mainly getting at . Your talking about Thunderclast and Fused and. Unmade . We barely saw Fen or Navani cause they had no place thier . I’m not saying he can’t perfom another role and be effective . But is that what you would prefer to see . He spent 3 books building Adolin up as dualist and a soldier. And your saying you would rather see him set aside that momentum. And support in another Role and become like Queen Fen , Guax , ??? Having him run out that without Radiant healing and abilities will just get him killed ! Or Mayve he will go out there with no powers and whip chull , and that will make everyone happy ? If that is your hopes I respect that too . But I want  to see him Skating thru a battlefield like Tron slicing thru the legs of 20 Fused as he does . Without Powers he is not capable of keeping up with the Jones’s . Any bridge 4 squire will be 5 times as effective as him . But that’s not the biggest loss. The biggest loss is we won’t see how beautiful Maya is when reformed . I challenge anyone to tell me they don’t want to know how this works , they don’t want to know how to heal a dead eye ?! I’ll wait 

To clarify what my argument is:

1. I believe Adolin will awaken Maya with the help of Dalinar to become an Edgedancer

2. Some people believe Adolin will not become a Radiant

3. Calderis stated if Adolin does not become a Radiant, because Adolin always fights at the front lines, he will die. Or because he does not have powers, he will not be where the action is, and become irrelevant

4. Just because I believe Adolin will become a radiant, does not mean I cannot appreciate and understand the theories of those who believe he will not. 

5. I disagree with the dichotomy that Adolin will either become a radiant or he will become irrelevant/die. I believe we have seen enough of Adolin being capable in other areas that if he does not in fact get powers, he would still be relevant, and would not just die. 

6. My responses are not intended to be "I want Adolin to be without powers!" "I want Adolin to vanish from the narrative!" "I want Adolin to die!" "I want Adolin to be uninteresting!". Painting my responses as such (not saying you are, I mean in general) is disingenuous and very much "us vs them"

7. I see no reason why people cannot believe Adolin will become a radiant, while others believe Adolin will not gain powers. Both can coexist. Just because someone believes one, does not prevent another from being equally viable. 

8. If 20 people say Adolin will get powers, and 5 people say he will not. Those 5 people will not change whatever it is Brandon will write. If 20 people say Adolin will not get powers, and 5 people say he will. Those 20 people will not change whatever Brandon will write. People can have theories that have nothing to do with how a character is being "treated". 

 

Did that help?

21 hours ago, Calderis said:

In every instance of those, except handing the blade off, he was in the thick of things. Leading from the front. And if he had his plate, do you think he'd have even considered handing Maya off?

He gave the blade to Hrdalm because the man had plate and could hopefully take a hit where he knew he couldn't. If that weren't the case, and you think Adolin would have willingly stepped back, you have a very different read of Adolin than I do. 

But in an instance, where someone else was better suited to fight, he willingly gave his blade away so that the goal could be accomplished. He then went to look for another way he could help. The same would stand for being a radiant. He sees how he can accomplish something. If someone else is more capable and available, then he defers to that person, and tries to do something else. That is what a commander does. They do not do everything themselves. It is a lesson Dalinar had to learn in Words of Radiance. He had to learn to let others do their jobs. Adolin is a highprince. His job is leading what equates a country. If he is without powers and cannot lead from the front, then he will lead from the back. Otherwise the Adolin you are presenting is some suicidal brainless thug who is focused on personal glory. That even though there is a thunderclast that he in no way can defeat, he will keep on fighting it, because that is what he does, all the way till the hand comes down and he goes squish. Which is not what happened in the book. He held it off till someone better equipped came along. He then assisted them, and then tried to be effective in another manner. 

edit: this also disregards the developing fabrial tech as well as past desolations. Navani has no powers, but used her painrial to take on Sadeas's men. Why couldn't Adolin not bond a spren, but try out Navani's fabrials? She already tested the painrial on him. Why not others? Past desolations had normal people fighting as well because "shardbearers cannot hold ground". We see multiple occasions of "normies" in Dalinar's visions. You want to believe Adolin will awaken Maya and become a radiant? Great! I wish you luck with your theory! But those who believe he will "remain normal" are not saying he will die or be removed from the narrative. They are saying they see the potential for the narrative to go in that direction, and they would enjoy such a narrative. 

18 hours ago, Storm Lite said:

I think Adolin will form a bond, but it will be a very different kind of bond.  I think instead of Maya bonding to him, I think he'll essentially bond to her to fill in the broken part of her.  He might get surges, or maybe he'll have a foot in the cognitive realm like Lift and will be able to access investiture in a different way.  If he dies (dropping in spoiler tag to be safe as I'm maybe veering into greater-Cosmere territory), 

  Reveal hidden contents

I think he'll end up as a cognitive shadow and start to get involved with other areas of the Cosmere. Or maybe he'll qualify to be a new Herald.

 

Interesting theory! I wish you luck!

To add to your spoiler theory:

Spoiler

Or maybe he ends up bonding with someone like a spren as a cognitive shadow. We have WoB, that a cognitive shadow could potentially do that. Then we could get a adoblade! lol

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calderis]

And if Adolin were that willing to step back and serve the needed role, he'd be king and leading all of the armies. Not just in charge of house Kholin. 

Adolin is fairly selfless he'll step in and do what he thinks is needed in a pinch. But he's not going to delegate something he thinks he has the ability to accomplish himself... Even if he's wrong about the extent of his abilities. 

Frankly speaking, I don't see how Maya reviving via a bond is really all that farfetched anymore. We've already seen a spren die and be revived with Syl and Kaladin, and she started speaking to him again before he actually said the words and revived her... 

Maya was summoned in under the 10 heartbeats, and started speaking to Adolin... Which should mean that the bond is already forming and she's getting better. Not that there isn't more work to be done, but the hardest part should be forging a bond with a mentally "dead" spren in the first place. 

That parts already done in my opinion. 

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And if Adolin were that willing to step back and serve the needed role, he'd be king and leading all of the armies. Not just in charge of house Kholin. 

He said very clearly in the book why he does not want to become king. He feels they would not listen to him and he would be ineffective. They then picked Jasnah because she would be a better Queen. Highprince he was willing to do because he felt he would be effective at it. Again I feel you are painting this level of single mindedness that is discounting so many other aspects and levels of Adolin. 

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Adolin is fairly selfless he'll step in and do what he thinks is needed in a pinch. But he's not going to delegate something he thinks he has the ability to accomplish himself... Even if he's wrong about the extent of his abilities. 

And you are assuming he will be wrong about the extent of his abilities enough to get himself killed? To the extent that it is an assurety? That either he gets powers, or he will get himself killed. So I guess then he is a horrible soldier, and a short sighted commander that will get not only himself but his men killed because he will always go beyond what he is capable of. 

Personally I think Adolin is smart enough to realize when there is a task he is not suited for, and delegate it to someone who is. Personally I do not think Adolin is the type to suicidally compromise the success of a mission, because he has to be the one to do it. He learned his lesson from the shattered plains when Dalinar got surrounded. Kaladin told him to save the men, and Kaladin would handle getting Dalinar. Adolin didn't like it at the time, but he still did it because it was the right thing to do. Adolin with the thunderclast in thaylenah shows that growth. He didn't need anyone to force him. He realized for himself, and chose to do so. 

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Frankly speaking, I don't see how Maya reviving via a bond is really all that farfetched anymore. We've already seen a spren die and be revived with Syl and Kaladin, and she started speaking to him again before he actually said the words and revived her... 

Not sure where far fetched is coming into our discussion? 

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Maya was summoned in under the 10 heartbeats, and started speaking to Adolin... Which should mean that the bond is already forming and she's getting better. Not that there isn't more work to be done, but the hardest part should be forging a bond with a mentally "dead" spren in the first place. 

Again not sure why this is coming up in our current discussion? We already established each of our own theories and why we think they would work. I think my own theory will work out. You think yours will. I wish you luck with yours. What does that have to do with the absolute you presented that if Adolin does not get powers, he will end up either dead or irrelevant?

Edited December 24, 2019 by Pathfinder