Do you think it's possible for Adolin to bring Mayalaran back from the dead?

[THEpriceOFsoap]

From what I've read, Adolin is very close to his blade, Maya. As time progresses, he starts doing thing with his blade that many Shardbearers either can't do or never thought possible. He summons her in less then ten heart beats, he can throw her, and kind of communicate with her in the physical realm. This is just a hunch and I want to see what everyone else has to say about it.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

I think it's very likely, especially since Maya is a Cultivationspren and Adolin would make a perfect Edgedancer. Unfortunately all WoB end in RAFO.

As a side note the blade not disappearing when you release it is a matter of training though Adolin is particularly skilled at it so who knows?

For me that biggest point by far is the fast summoning.

[Ahriman]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It'll probably happen, but I really don't want to see Adolin become a Rediant.

[Kelsier'sGodComplex]

17 hours ago, Ahriman said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It'll probably happen, but I really don't want to see Adolin become a Rediant.

I'm with you. I kinda want to see how he reacts to being the only one without a bonded spren. I don't want to cause my boy pain, but I think it's an important piece of his character development.

 

I do think it is possible though. I just don't know how.

[StanLemon]

Well it already seems like it's happening. After all, Maya protected him of her own accord and he was able to summon her in under 10 heartbeats

[StealthPrincess]

I think it’s possible, but don’t want to see Adolin bonded 

[Aon Tia]

I think it is happening and I actually think he will make a great Edgedancer ! And team Radiant has it tough enough already! I think they can use someone as skilled as Adolin on their team, otherwise he will be as good as useless against fused or singer forms of power! 
 

[CahiraCelosial]

I hope so. Adolin, in doing so, will have a bond just as strange as his brother's. Also, I really wanna see Lift making fun of Adolin for less than proficiency with the surge of Abrasion. Also him pulling a rockstar move and sliding on his knees, but extra far cuz yeah. All jokes aside, Adolin would make a great Edgedancer. He sincerely cares about people, and the oaths we've seen Lift say I can see Adolin saying. Also, it would be cool for almost all the Kholins to have spren. Except Navani (so far...). And Gavinor, but he's too young yet.

[asterion137]

I don't think it's a coincidence that Adolin bonded an Edgedancer's shardblade, which is both totally suited to reviving a forgotten deadeye and Adolin's own character. Honestly if it doesn't happen it will be because Adolin is dead (RIP Elhokar) and unable to carry out the development implied for his character.

[Honorless]

It does seem like Maya is getting better, more responsive, whether he can revive her completely is still up in the air but I think it's possible. As for him becoming Radiant, Maya is a sapient being who might want to take a break from the bonding business for a while and I don't really want Adolin Kholin to be a Radiant too.

[Quantus]

Yes, I think it's possible, for Maya and for the Sibling (who I think is in the same general boat of Damaged).  "Birth",  "Life" and "Death" are all turning out to be more distinct from the human definitions that we originally thought.  Pattern also mentioned once that Spren cant heal themselves but can be heal from outside forces.  Both those make me think that Deadeye's can be revived.  I have to wonder if it could be as easy as Elsecalling with a Regrowth user and healing them directly from Shadesmar; there's WOB indicating hemalurgy woudl work on spren only in shadesmar, perhaps regrowth would operate similarly if used on their "native" body.

That being said, I think it could go either way on whether Maya getting revived and Adolin becoming Radiant have to come as a package deal.  It doesnt bother me as much as some others, mostly because I can see perfectly reasonable realmic explanations for those close to Radiants to themselves become Radiant.  I think Id rather that than him die dramatically on the cusp like a certain somebody.  

[What's a Seawolf?]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Yes, I think it's possible, for Maya and for the Sibling (who I think is in the same general boat of Damaged). 

I never thought of it like this before.  Adolin reviving a dead Spren could be a huge 'scientific' development for Navani on her path of restoring Urithiru.

[+robardin]

I think it's clear that Maya is forming some kind of bond with Adolin, despite being a deadeye. She's certainly not as dead as other deadeyes. She acted of her own volition to defend him against a Fused in Shadesmar. She knows her own name. She tells Adolin her name, via a mental link in the Physical realm. She comes to him in fewer than 10 heartbeats. She warns him of an incoming Fused. And it's strongly suggested she enabled him to heal with Stormlight (unconsciously) in being able to "gather himself" to stand and then to walk out of a storming collapsed building. "Gather himself" from what he'd been sure had been shattered bones? Right.

When asked about this before Oathbringer came out, Brandon had said such a thing (reviving a "dead spren" Shardblade) had never happened before, and would require some unusual circumstances... One of which might be the current bondholder of the Blade meeting the spren in Shadesmar, which you have to think has never happened before.

That said, I don't think Brandon will do something as "obvious" as "Mayalaran woke as from a long sleep, having regenerated the missing parts of her cognitive soul, and happily bonded the person responsible for her return to sentience, becoming cultivationspren and Edgedancer as it was always meant to be with the one who brought her back". That's too easy.

Whatever the future has for them, it's going to be interesting, and I don't want to get too invested into what I hope/expect to happen, except that I expect it NOT to be the above.

My personal POV on this:

A spren is a cognitive being, and forming Ideals with one links into that spren's cognitive "soul": It embodies a multi-layered concept, and a Radiant links up to a deeper core layer of the concept with each successive Ideal.

To be a deadeye Blade, at least the Third Ideal of five was achieved, so having that part of a spren ripped out and made permanently physical (the remains of the broken oath) is like ripping out 60% of the spren, with the other 40% or so the zombie-like deadeye figures in the CR we see in Shadesmar. (Living Shardblades, like when Syl or Pattern are summoned as weapons by their Radiants, fully transition to the Physical realm and are 100% of the spren, explaining why they glow and stuff where dead Blades do not.)

I don't think cognitive beings can "regenerate" or "heal", as in to recover what was lost. BUT, what I think is going on with Adolin is that he's bonding to the 40% remainder of Maya, which required someone bonded to her Blade to also think of her as a spren (no other Shardbearer of a dead Blade on Roshar even knows that's the truth behind the Blade), to wish to have a bond, AND be someone that would under other circumstances also be someone she'd want to bond with.

And now that bond, kind of like grafting a sprout onto the base of a pruned root that's still alive, is extending that "40% of Maya" to being 50%, 60%, climbing back towards being a full spren. But not toward a 100% tally of the cultivationspren she had been. She's going to be "plugged" in the way that a spren normally plugs the cracks in a Radiant's soul. Basically, Adolin is patching HER cracks. As she approaches fuller sentience, she's not going to be a cultivationspren, so much as a cultivationspren base with a layer of... Well... Whatever Adolin thinks a Radiant could or should be.

Edited December 19, 2019 by robardin

[Pathfinder]

So I have my own theory regarding Adolin and Maya. I have gotten a lot of flak for this theory because people feel it is taking things away from Adolin. I do not feel that is the case. The title of this thread is "Do you think its possible for adolin to bring mayalaran back from the dead". I do, and I am going to say how I think it is possible. If that does not work for anyone else, I respect that, and wish you luck, but that does not change my belief in my theory. So now that that is all stated here is my theory:

 

What we know via WoB:

1. just stating the oaths of the order, if you are not the original knight radiant, is not enough

2. something extra must be done

3. dead spren have something ripped out of them. The equivalency is having a jack in your head be forcibly ripped out, chunky and all, leaving a gaping hole. 

 

So how do we fix that? The bond with a shardblade I believe is a faux bond created with the aid of stormlight in the gemstone placed in the pommel. It is not a radiant bond. It is taking a third thing, to mimic it, and provide minimal functionality. I believe Adolin has strengthened this faux bond, so he gets a little more out of it, but it is still not a full bond. Dalinar has had the same exact (to me) experiences with oathbringer as Adolin and Maya. Adolin felt an urging from Maya. Dalinar in Way of Kings while fighting the chasmfiend felt an urging from Oathbringer. Maya remembers Adolin and demonstrates increased sapience. Dalinar when holding Oathbringer as a radiant, heard Oathbringer not scream as loud, and stormfather explained that Oathbringer remembers Dalinar and his actions. That demonstrates increased sapience. The reason Adolin was able to experience this while not being a radiant at the time was because the realms were closer together. Brandon confirmed that distance does in fact matter regarding the number of heartbeats to summon a shardblade, just normally you would never experience or notice the discrepancy. Spren are beings of investiture. They had a huge chunk ripped out of them. The current connection is not enough (for me) to forge a full bond, as Brandon has said something more is needed. Investiture interferes with other investiture. A radiant cannot manipulate another radiant's surge or plate. For myself, I believe that chunk needs to be restored in order to awaken the spren, and bond it in true. Who has investiture manipulating powers? Dalinar. Who had connection manipulating powers? Dalinar. Who can bypass the investiture interference to manipulate another radiant's surge? Dalinar. 

So what does all this mean? I think Dalinar in his capacity as a bondsmith using the "scaffolding" that Adolin's strengthened faux bond has created, can force through a large infusion of investiture, healing the huge gaping hole in Maya, allowing her to become a living spren once more than Adolin can then bond. That without Adolin increasing the faux bond, this could not happen. Without a bondsmith, this could not happen. Which is why in all the thousands of years, it has not occurred. We have seen Shardbearers increase their connection to shardblades in the past. What has not been for thousands of years, is a real bondsmith radiant. I do not feel this takes anything away from Adolin as it requires Dalinar and Adolin to work together. I do not think this takes anything away from Adolin as it would require him to then teach others to deepen their bond to their shardblades. And finally I think this is going to lead to an arms race in grabbing up every shardblade that they can so they can awaken them and increase the knights radiant numbers, while the enemy tries to prevent it. 

That is my theory. I wish everyone luck with their own. 

[THEpriceOFsoap]

@Pathfinder Geat theroy! 

[+robardin]

38 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I think Dalinar in his capacity as a bondsmith using the "scaffolding" that Adolin's strengthened faux bond has created, can force through a large infusion of investiture, healing the huge gaping hole in Maya, allowing her to become a living spren once more than Adolin can then bond. That without Adolin increasing the faux bond, this could not happen. Without a bondsmith, this could not happen. Which is why in all the thousands of years, it has not occurred. We have seen Shardbearers increase their connection to shardblades in the past. What has not been for thousands of years, is a real bondsmith radiant.

I would be OK with this as well!

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, THEpriceOFsoap said:

@Pathfinder Geat theroy! 

Thank you!

2 hours ago, robardin said:

I would be OK with this as well!

Thank you!

[Naurock]

9 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I have gotten a lot of flak for this theory because people feel it is taking things away from Adolin.

I like your theory and I expected you to expound on this statement a little with a similar idea to my own. Adolin is especially adept with a blade, similar to how Kaladin is especially adept with a spear. When Kaladin was without Syl in WoR he struggled with basic concepts and everything felt off. 

Quote

How much of his ability with the spear had come from his powers? Was he nothing without them?

-Ch 81 Words of Radiance

How much of Adolin's dueling and fighting abilities come from his bond? 

[Aon Tia]

11 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

The reason Adolin was able to experience this while not being a radiant at the time was because the realms were closer together.

I have to say that i agree with this observation of yours @Pathfinder 

 

11 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

That without Adolin increasing the faux bond, this could not happen. Without a bondsmith, this could not happen. Which is why in all the thousands of years, it has not occurred. We have seen Shardbearers increase their connection to shardblades in the past. What has not been for thousands of years, is a real bondsmith radiant.

It does make sense though! I also agree that a Bondsmith having the power of Spiritual adhesion could probably reforge the broken bond but needs a preliminary level of bonding between Radiants. However, i would like a one little twist on it and that is the bondsmith who can accomplish this is not Dalinar that is one bonded to Stormfather but Bondsmith who is bonded to Sibling! Because i think that this third bondsmith will have not the sole function of running Urithiru but he will be important in making all sorts of spren-human-fabrial bonds. 

This would also explain why Dalinar has not felt any compulsions of repairing the bond of deadeye shards and their holders! 

23 hours ago, CahiraCelosial said:

I hope so. Adolin, in doing so, will have a bond just as strange as his brother's. Also, I really wanna see Lift making fun of Adolin for less than proficiency with the surge of Abrasion. Also him pulling a rockstar move and sliding on his knees, but extra far cuz yeah. All jokes aside, Adolin would make a great Edgedancer. He sincerely cares about people, and the oaths we've seen Lift say I can see Adolin saying. Also, it would be cool for almost all the Kholins to have spren. Except Navani (so far...). And Gavinor, but he's too young yet.

  I totally agree with you here and i think this is a very relevant point here. 

I think that when and not if, Adolin revives Maya, it will be not be similar to the bond that Radiants normally make! I think Adolin will be "something new" that has never been! Their bond can be very different from other Radiants, i say, Brandon, have fun here and make something totally different but same at the same time!  

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

17 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So I have my own theory regarding Adolin and Maya. I have gotten a lot of flak for this theory because people feel it is taking things away from Adolin. I do not feel that is the case. The title of this thread is "Do you think its possible for adolin to bring mayalaran back from the dead". I do, and I am going to say how I think it is possible. If that does not work for anyone else, I respect that, and wish you luck, but that does not change my belief in my theory. So now that that is all stated here is my theory:

 

What we know via WoB:

1. just stating the oaths of the order, if you are not the original knight radiant, is not enough

2. something extra must be done

3. dead spren have something ripped out of them. The equivalency is having a jack in your head be forcibly ripped out, chunky and all, leaving a gaping hole. 

 

So how do we fix that? The bond with a shardblade I believe is a faux bond created with the aid of stormlight in the gemstone placed in the pommel. It is not a radiant bond. It is taking a third thing, to mimic it, and provide minimal functionality. I believe Adolin has strengthened this faux bond, so he gets a little more out of it, but it is still not a full bond. Dalinar has had the same exact (to me) experiences with oathbringer as Adolin and Maya. Adolin felt an urging from Maya. Dalinar in Way of Kings while fighting the chasmfiend felt an urging from Oathbringer. Maya remembers Adolin and demonstrates increased sapience. Dalinar when holding Oathbringer as a radiant, heard Oathbringer not scream as loud, and stormfather explained that Oathbringer remembers Dalinar and his actions. That demonstrates increased sapience. The reason Adolin was able to experience this while not being a radiant at the time was because the realms were closer together. Brandon confirmed that distance does in fact matter regarding the number of heartbeats to summon a shardblade, just normally you would never experience or notice the discrepancy. Spren are beings of investiture. They had a huge chunk ripped out of them. The current connection is not enough (for me) to forge a full bond, as Brandon has said something more is needed. Investiture interferes with other investiture. A radiant cannot manipulate another radiant's surge or plate. For myself, I believe that chunk needs to be restored in order to awaken the spren, and bond it in true. Who has investiture manipulating powers? Dalinar. Who had connection manipulating powers? Dalinar. Who can bypass the investiture interference to manipulate another radiant's surge? Dalinar. 

So what does all this mean? I think Dalinar in his capacity as a bondsmith using the "scaffolding" that Adolin's strengthened faux bond has created, can force through a large infusion of investiture, healing the huge gaping hole in Maya, allowing her to become a living spren once more than Adolin can then bond. That without Adolin increasing the faux bond, this could not happen. Without a bondsmith, this could not happen. Which is why in all the thousands of years, it has not occurred. We have seen Shardbearers increase their connection to shardblades in the past. What has not been for thousands of years, is a real bondsmith radiant. I do not feel this takes anything away from Adolin as it requires Dalinar and Adolin to work together. I do not think this takes anything away from Adolin as it would require him to then teach others to deepen their bond to their shardblades. And finally I think this is going to lead to an arms race in grabbing up every shardblade that they can so they can awaken them and increase the knights radiant numbers, while the enemy tries to prevent it. 

That is my theory. I wish everyone luck with their own. 

This is a well thought out theory imo. I could see this happening . The only part I don’t see is an arms race because not every person who has a shardblade can meet the requirements of the dead spren . Adolin character is someone who if Maya was alive she would chose to bond with . But what would happen if someone had a skybreaker dead-eyes and that person did not have a respect for the law ? No matter how much he talked to the blade it wouldn’t connect because that persons ideals were too different ....

On 12/18/2019 at 11:55 PM, CahiraCelosial said:

I hope so. Adolin, in doing so, will have a bond just as strange as his brother's. Also, I really wanna see Lift making fun of Adolin for less than proficiency with the surge of Abrasion. Also him pulling a rockstar move and sliding on his knees, but extra far cuz yeah. All jokes aside, Adolin would make a great Edgedancer. He sincerely cares about people, and the oaths we've seen Lift say I can see Adolin saying. Also, it would be cool for almost all the Kholins to have spren. Except Navani (so far...). And Gavinor, but he's too young yet.

I don’t think This will happen. If Adolin manages to revive Maya , I could totally see him skating thru a battlefield like he had ice skates on slicing thru tons of enemies . I think Lift will be envious that she can’t do the same , she has to move around on her knees because she crashes every time she tries to stand up and use abrasion . I’m sure after seeing Adolin do it eventually she will learn ! Heck , she might even get Adolin to teach her how to skate. But teasing him nahhhh not in the cards .

[+Bliev]

I love the theories above! We know that deadeyes have broken spirit webs, but aren't "dead" like we think of humans being "dead". They still scream, they move, they obviously respond. I think they're  much more like the slaveform Parsh than anything else--their connection was broken, they move through the world as if in a fog--vaguely remembering  that something  is very wrong and very broken within them.  Restoring that connection is what WOB has mentioned would "heal" them (which is, as of yet, impossible because the original breakers of the bond/oath are dead), and we also know that stormlight is not enough. I do, however, like the idea of Adolin filling in the broken spirit web for Maya similar to how the spren are seen as filling in the the broken spirit web of humans to grant them surges. I also like the idea of Dalinar's connection greasing the path for Adolin to do this. 

 

I also wonder if there isn't more to this as well. For millennia, humans have used Shardblades without caring or knowing who or what they really are. Adolin is listening and learning to love this blade and its spren, just as she is--he doesn't think, "wow, if I only she would change and make me a Radiant"; he bonds with her and listens to her--just as she is. It would be ironic if the humans could have "healed" the deadeyes all along, all while the current spren sought to keep them "safe" from humans and the current humans had no idea. I also wouldn't be surprised if Adolin has the chance to form a Radiant bond--maybe a spren becomes attracted to him--but he forgoes it out of his connection to Maya. And that might actually be the intention that awakens her. Relatedly, I actually don't think there is any way that Adolin "heals" Maya back into her original Cultivation spren state. What is broken will always have scars. Rather, I think healing a deadeye will look very different--that a bond will indeed be forged,  connection and spirit web restored in some way, but that a Radiant bond will be impossible. And I think it is through this healing process that we will learn what really happened at the Recreance.

[Quantus]

22 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So I have my own theory regarding Adolin and Maya. I have gotten a lot of flak for this theory because people feel it is taking things away from Adolin. I do not feel that is the case. The title of this thread is "Do you think its possible for adolin to bring mayalaran back from the dead". I do, and I am going to say how I think it is possible. If that does not work for anyone else, I respect that, and wish you luck, but that does not change my belief in my theory. So now that that is all stated here is my theory:

 

What we know via WoB:

1. just stating the oaths of the order, if you are not the original knight radiant, is not enough

2. something extra must be done

3. dead spren have something ripped out of them. The equivalency is having a jack in your head be forcibly ripped out, chunky and all, leaving a gaping hole. 

 

So how do we fix that? The bond with a shardblade I believe is a faux bond created with the aid of stormlight in the gemstone placed in the pommel. It is not a radiant bond. It is taking a third thing, to mimic it, and provide minimal functionality. I believe Adolin has strengthened this faux bond, so he gets a little more out of it, but it is still not a full bond. Dalinar has had the same exact (to me) experiences with oathbringer as Adolin and Maya. Adolin felt an urging from Maya. Dalinar in Way of Kings while fighting the chasmfiend felt an urging from Oathbringer. Maya remembers Adolin and demonstrates increased sapience. Dalinar when holding Oathbringer as a radiant, heard Oathbringer not scream as loud, and stormfather explained that Oathbringer remembers Dalinar and his actions. That demonstrates increased sapience. The reason Adolin was able to experience this while not being a radiant at the time was because the realms were closer together. Brandon confirmed that distance does in fact matter regarding the number of heartbeats to summon a shardblade, just normally you would never experience or notice the discrepancy. Spren are beings of investiture. They had a huge chunk ripped out of them. The current connection is not enough (for me) to forge a full bond, as Brandon has said something more is needed. Investiture interferes with other investiture. A radiant cannot manipulate another radiant's surge or plate. For myself, I believe that chunk needs to be restored in order to awaken the spren, and bond it in true. Who has investiture manipulating powers? Dalinar. Who had connection manipulating powers? Dalinar. Who can bypass the investiture interference to manipulate another radiant's surge? Dalinar. 

So what does all this mean? I think Dalinar in his capacity as a bondsmith using the "scaffolding" that Adolin's strengthened faux bond has created, can force through a large infusion of investiture, healing the huge gaping hole in Maya, allowing her to become a living spren once more than Adolin can then bond. That without Adolin increasing the faux bond, this could not happen. Without a bondsmith, this could not happen. Which is why in all the thousands of years, it has not occurred. We have seen Shardbearers increase their connection to shardblades in the past. What has not been for thousands of years, is a real bondsmith radiant. I do not feel this takes anything away from Adolin as it requires Dalinar and Adolin to work together. I do not think this takes anything away from Adolin as it would require him to then teach others to deepen their bond to their shardblades. And finally I think this is going to lead to an arms race in grabbing up every shardblade that they can so they can awaken them and increase the knights radiant numbers, while the enemy tries to prevent it. 

That is my theory. I wish everyone luck with their own. 

I very much like this theory and agree with your assessment of what's happened so far.  As an alternative possibility to Dalinar's Spiritual Connection powers being the trick, I suspect a Radiant with Regrowth might be able to heal the Spren if used on their native Cognitive Realm form. This would accomplish a very similar thing in flooding their essence with Investiture to restore what was ripped away (the way hemalurgy damage can technically be healed).  I think a lot of the same continuity logic would apply (none of the right kind of Radiant to try before) but it would give Renarin and Adolin a really cool scene/quest together, and frankly Id rather given Renarin that Win.  Though I do also like @Traveller's suggestion of it taking one of the other Bondsmiths, just because Id find it cool if the three God-Spren granted slightly different abilities.  

[Aon Tia]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Though I do also like @Traveller's suggestion of it taking one of the other Bondsmiths, just because Id find it cool if the three God-Spren granted slightly different abilities.  

Thank you, I got the idea for same reason. I very much want the three bondsmiths to have slightly different take on their surges of adhesion and tension!

[Honorless]

22 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I very much want the three bondsmiths to have slightly different take on their surges of adhesion and tension!

They are three very different godspren...

Edited December 20, 2019 by Honorless

[+robardin]

It'd be great if the Adolin/Maya semi-bond, that was formed on its own (whether because of Adolin's nature, his having visited Shadesmar to see his Blade's cognitive form, or whatever else), could only become "fully operational" with a Bondsmith's input, but that's completely different from saying a Bondsmith could do that for a large scale upgrade/recruitment effort of Shardbearers.

There's no reason at all to suppose that your typical Shardbearer on Roshar is at all aligned with a Radiant spren (one that that spren might have chosen, given the choice), while it seems like that is the case with Adolin and Maya.

I think it'd be awful if a Bondsmith (Dalinar or otherwise) were able to say something like, "hey, you there with a Shardblade, come over and Imma Connect you up to Radiancy with the revived spren of your Blade!"

Edited December 20, 2019 by robardin