Jump to content

Jasnah's religion


Oltux72

Recommended Posts

Jasnah is famous for her atheism.
Technically of course the Allmighty does not exist, as he is dead. But the evidence that he indeed existed is overwhelming and known to Jasnah.
Does she change her religous stance? For somebody with her dedication to the truth that looks inevitable to me. Her uncle talked to a god. Or did he? She will no longer doubt the existance of Honor. But does she recognise him as a god? His official divine attribute are incomplete, but not altogether wrong. So what does she think and more importantly, what does she publically profess? It seems to me that for an Alethi queen pretending to be atheist makes no sense. So how far will she go?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Depends on your definition of 'God'. Jasnah argued that they are just powerful beings, which is true. I think she'll continue to hold true to her beliefs.

Edited by Honorless
changed tense, Jasnah has already responded to this in OB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The "Almighty" was a man who was at the right place at the right time. He never was a God and never will be. We don't even really know what or who Adonalsium was exactly, but him being Splintered is enough to show that he wasn't strictly God either (at least Jasnah would argue that way). There might be an actual God Beyond in the cosmere, but Brandon has repeatedly stated that he will leave that open to interpretation as a riddle for the ages (well, just like in real life, so it fits). Jasnah will never be proven wrong, she will, as things stand, never support any religion, and if her behavior up until now is something to go by, she will remain openly atheistic in public even as a queen. And I feel, given how much her opinions add to the diversity in a story that's full of theistic characters, everything else would have been a huge loss, in my opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Depends on your definition of 'God'. Jasnah would argue that they are just powerful beings, which is technically true. I think she would hold true to her beliefs.

Yeah, this one is pretty open and shut, by definition Honor wasn't God... So, no need to change, if anything, Dalinar's interactions with Honor should reinforce Jasnah's beliefs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Words of Radiance page 71 Jasnah and Shallan discuss exactly this, and Jasnah says exactly how she would view the situation (I have posted this so many times I have the scene practically memorized)

 

"You're so sure he isn't real" Shallan said "The Almighty"

"I have no more proof of him than I do of the Thaylen Passions, Nu Ralik of the Purelake, or any other religion"

"And the Heralds? You don't think they existed?"

"I don't know" Jasnah said "There are many things in this world that I don't understand. For example, there is some slight proof that both the Stormfather and the Almighty are real creatures - simply powerful spren, such as the Nightwatcher"

"Then he would be real"

"I never claimed he was not" Jasnah said "I merely claimed that I do not accept him as God, nor do I feel any inclination to worship him."

 

Personally I do not understand the need of Jasnah being proven or disproved. Sanderson has said repeatedly that he intends the existence of an all mighty deity to always be a question so people like Dalinar (theist), Jasnah (atheist), and Kaladin (agnostic) can all co-exist, discuss and be equally right.

Edited by Pathfinder
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Does she change her religous stance? For somebody with her dedication to the truth that looks inevitable to me. Her uncle talked to a god. Or did he? She will no longer doubt the existance of Honor. But does she recognise him as a god? His official divine attribute are incomplete, but not altogether wrong. So what does she think and more importantly, what does she publically profess? It seems to me that for an Alethi queen pretending to be atheist makes no sense. So how far will she go?

I refer you to the beginning chapters of ack @Pathfinder    beet me to it.  Also Jasnah is actually agnostic not atheistic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So the terms tend to vary from person to person, but from at least from Brandon's own mouth Jasnah is meant to be an atheist, Dalinar a theist, and Kaladin an agnostic. 

 

Questioner

I have to say, I find more gospel conversations after going through The Stormlight Archive with people than any other fictional book I've ever read. Does that intentionally bleed in, or is that just part of who you are?

Brandon Sanderson

It's a little of both. I don't preach in my books. What I am determines part of what I find heroic. But I'm very fascinated by religion. So I like to have lots of different people in the books who have lots of different viewpoints on religion that talk about it, like we kind of do in real life. So, you know, you have someone like Dalinar, who is kind of very... almost revolutionarily faithful. And you have Kaladin who's just straight-up agnostic, "Don't know, don't care." You have Jasnah, who's an atheist. You have someone more like Navani, who's a classic conservative faithful. I just like having all of these different people interacting.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018) Edited by Pathfinder
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Of course, if this is what I discovered God was (or any of the Shards, really), I might have to agree with her! 

I personally would not consider adonalsium to be God or even divine really.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jasnah, clearly denies the existence of a god that should be worshiped. 

An agnostic believes that there may or may not be a God, and that knowing that either doesn't matter, or is unknowable. 

An atheist believes that with no evidence of a greater power (in the case of the Cosmere, that would be greater than the Shards or Adonalsium or whatever else, I.E. "The God Beyond") then it doesn't exist. 

Jasnah's beliefs are presented as almost exactly the same as mine. She's an atheist. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I approach it this way, I am an atheist, so what would I think if I met a being such as the Stormfather? What if, like Jasnah, I was able to discover reliable information about the nature of these beings? I'm sure I would be very impressed, probably even awestruck, but I feel that way about the ocean or a thunderstorm, and I never feel the urge to worship them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, earthexile said:

I'm sure I would be very impressed, probably even awestruck, but I feel that way about the ocean or a thunderstorm, and I never feel the urge to worship them. 

The horneaters might disagree.  They call inanimate objects by gendered pronouns for a reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

The horneaters might disagree.  They call inanimate objects by gendered pronouns for a reason.

I am not sure how that is relevant to how an atheist would view or treat such phenomena? Jasnah also mentioned she reviewed a myriad of religions and none of them held anything for her. So I would imagine the horneaters, though not brought up by name, would have been included in that. 

Edited by Pathfinder
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/18/2019 at 6:46 PM, Calderis said:

Jasnah, clearly denies the existence of a god that should be worshiped. 

An agnostic believes that there may or may not be a God, and that knowing that either doesn't matter, or is unknowable. 

An atheist believes that with no evidence of a greater power (in the case of the Cosmere, that would be greater than the Shards or Adonalsium or whatever else, I.E. "The God Beyond") then it doesn't exist. 

Jasnah's beliefs are presented as almost exactly the same as mine. She's an atheist. 

Take one look at your reputation for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Booknerd said:

Take one look at your reputation for me.

Very amusing, that. Of course it also fits perfectly with several observed figures in the Cosmere who are perceived as gods. Lightsong doesn't believe his own religion and has fun trying to cause theological paradoxes by messing with his high priest and Harmony's own religion has as a core tenant 'Don't worship me!'. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 18/12/2019 at 10:45 PM, ZenBossanova said:

I still predict, that at some point, Jasnah will meet Cultivation, and this will just make her more of an atheist. 

Of course, if this is what I discovered God was (or any of the Shards, really), I might have to agree with her! 

  • Able to create whole planets
  • Immortal
  • Existing beyond time and space

Who then is a god?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Able to create whole planets

In theory and sometimes needing help.  Also no physical law stops humans from making planets.  We just find it too expensive right now.

13 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Immortal

Long lived is just decent medical care.  Also age is not enough.

14 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Existing beyond time and space

Do they?  They mostly exist in the SR but that does not mean that where they are is beyond human understanding.

14 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Who then is a god?

Depends who you ask. In monotheistic thought, God is conceived of as the supreme being, creator deity, and principal object of faith.[1] God is usually conceived as being omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (all-present) and as having an eternal and necessary existence.  I don't think the shard pass any of these tests.  Additionally in my view worship of a god should be a useful and beneficial practice.  If Jasnah does not find that worship benefits her then her doing so would be hypocrisy. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I may add, as a Christian, I don't think the shards are gods, though I understand why characters in the stories think of them as such. There are several possibilities of how the power was originally formed before the shattering (did it make the entire Cosmere universe, or just the cluster? Did it come from outside, or was synonymous with the spiritual realm which then made the cognitive and physical - or is it the centre of the spiritual realm, and did it form there, or did it form the spiritual realm? Did it form the first life, or was it formed by the beliefs and actions, the intentions, of the first life, or did the first life in the Cosmere form into it?), and some of those do come close to the idea of God, and there are several real world religions which reflect certain beliefs about the divine, such as Rock's relation to Syl being seemingly to me to match the beliefs in Shintoism and Taosim - at least as I understand them, and if anyone can correct me on that, please do so. So some cultures in the real world would call even spren as they are portrayed gods, and in StarGate the Ancients and the Ori match the ideas of certain real world religions on gods, it is understandable why some call them and beings less than them gods. Yet, I do not think of them as gods.

Indeed, the Unknown God, a name Paul used to describe God to a group of Greeks, referencing a temple they had made to honour the god who they feared they had angered but didn't know, I think is the closest and most accurate description of God in the Cosmere - the God Beyond, I think that is why Brandon inserted that name in there, as he probably deliberately is referring to that story, but won't confirm or deny that The God Beyond exists in the Cosmere - or beyond it but in the setting one could argue.

 

Some call the shards - vessel and power together - gods. Some call only the power a god. But I don't think any of them are gods. Spirits and powers, yes, but not gods. There are people in the real world who would call the spren gods. I am not one of them. There are people who would call the shards gods. That doesn't include me. They don't match what I believe, but they do resemble the idea of powerful spirits and ideas. I can well understand why Jasnah doesn't believe in the divine, and I doubt she will change her mind were she herself to take up all or part of Honour and Cultivation. The only difference between us is that I do believe in God - yet when it comes to the shards, we are both in agreement that they are not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

and Taosim - at least as I understand them, and if anyone can correct me on that, please do so

I personally find Rock to be more in keeping with animism.  Otherwise I agree with you.

Edited by Ookla the Prolific
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:
  • Able to create whole planets
  • Immortal
  • Existing beyond time and space

Who then is a god?

At what metric does power equal godhood? The radiants?

Cosmere spoilers

Spoiler

The court of gods? Elantrians? 

If power and immortality are the only requirements of "godhood" then a large chunk of our cast can go under that title. Power and immortality that anyone can attain. If anyone theoretically can attain such levels, then what is unique about "godhood"? Why should anyone who attains such levels be worshiped? They are no better than anyone else. They just figured out the how before anyone else. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...