Question about F-Gold

[StanLemon]

4 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

It follows the same rules.  All cosmere healing does.

 

Arguably Returned healing doesn't. Susebron's tongue had been gone pretty much his entire life, so it is likely that he would have considered it a part of him like how terrismen accepted their castration as part of them. The fact that it was able to be healed implies a different rule.

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Arguably Returned healing doesn't. Susebron's tongue had been gone pretty much his entire life, so it is likely that he would have considered it a part of him like how terrismen accepted their castration as part of them. The fact that it was able to be healed implies a different rule.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

So you assume, which is not proof.  Nearly all Cosmere healing we've seen so far follows very similar rules.  But then, for the reasons I mentioned, the progression surge is already qualitatively different because the healing is being done to others.

Quote

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)
#1 Share Copy

 

Play/Pause

 

Questioner

Given Sanderson's Laws about limitations...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

What would you say are any spiritual, cognitive, and or physical limitations to a Returned's healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

That they can do it once.

Questioner

That they can do it once, and that's it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, right? The Returned get one heal and then they die. That's a pretty big limitation. Like you have to choose really well. However, what they can heal is bounded by cosmere limitations on healing, but it is a supercharged version.

Questioner

Okay. Could you define more cosmere limitations on healing?

Brandon Sanderson

Cosmere limitations on healing can be affected by your own perception.

Questioner

Okay. Cognitive stuff.

Brandon Sanderson

Cognitive stuff. And so there's a part of that, and... But that's really-- cognitive interferes. And if your spirit is gone? Right? Cosmere healing, you know, if your spirit is passed on you just get a dead body even though you've healed it.

Questioner

So potentially Vasher, having a much greater cosmere knowledge than others could potentially have a much greater usage of that healing than regular--

Brandon Sanderson

Well the healing-- What I mean by that is yourself. You impose limits. So the person being healed can impose some limits on the healing working. It doesn't happen as often as I'm making it sound. But, you know-- why Kaladin's scars have not healed, right? So Kaladin being hit by a Returned would still not heal his scars. He's got a major hangup about those scars.

 

Footnote: The questioner seems to have been asking about cosmere healing in general for Returned, but Brandon focused on their ability to give up their Divine Breath to heal somebody else.

#cosmere healing #divine breath #returned

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)
#2 Share Copy

 

Play/Pause

 

Argent

Cosmere healing. Some magic systems have internal healing, such as Stormlight; external healing, such as AonDor. With internal ones, the perception of the magic user seems to matter a lot. Is that also a factor for the external ones?

Brandon Sanderson

So, there are various types of healing in the cosmere. We have things like Stormlight, where you get the Stormlight and it heals you, and that one is very, very influenced by your perception. How you view yourself, and what you view as being healed, has a huge influence on what actually happens to you. Externally, if someone heals someone else, like a Knight Radiant uses the power to heal someone, or an external force heals them, is it still filtered through perception? I'm gonna say both perceptions are important in that. They both are relevant.

 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Those would work. In fact, that's kind of the main way that you would make that happen. Injections of Investiture making the body match the Spiritual and Cognitive.

 

#cosmere healing

Firefight San Diego signing (Jan. 20, 2015)
#19 Share Copy

 

 

Leinton (paraphrased)

So for Kaladin's depression and Stormlight's healing abilities, does Kaladin remain depressed because of his view of himself, or is it a limitation of Stormlight's abilities to heal, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Disorders like depression are a part of a person's personality, and thus aren't diseases and cannot be cured. He talked a lot about this, and he talked about how a hyper kid annoys people but that doesn't mean there's something wrong.

 

#cosmere healing #kaladin

Sources: Leinton's report - Tumblr

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)
#20 Share Copy

 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[Quantus]

37 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

 

There you go, that second one confirms that there are indeed going to be qualitative differences between how stormlight healing works when used on yourself vs another (the other two dont really apply here) so we cannot assume that ReGrowth is going to be identical to radiant self-healing.  

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

There you go, that second one confirms that there are indeed going to be qualitative differences between how stormlight healing works when used on yourself vs another (the other two dont really apply here) so we cannot assume that ReGrowth is going to be identical to radiant self-healing.  

But it is not the radiant's perception that is determination.  Both have some import.  A radiant can not overwhelm your self image as you seem to think.  Both people can impose a limitation but not perks.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

There you go, that second one confirms that there are indeed going to be qualitative differences between how stormlight healing works when used on yourself vs another (the other two dont really apply here) so we cannot assume that ReGrowth is going to be identical to radiant self-healing.  

We have discussed this before and amicably decided to agree to disagree. I still believe we are at that point, but I did just want to add one thing. Renarin when healing Adolin, Adolin feels like he sees or feels an idealized version of himself. I think that shows a regrowth user uses the person's ideal self, filtered through their perception, like personal healing does. The reason they can, is apparently they do actually see it, or tap into it because Adolin actually saw/experienced it. So that would account for the trouble of an external healing you are positing. Personally I think regrowth works just like stormlight healing, just it can be done on others. Renarin's eyes healed to me because he wore glasses his whole life, so that became the "normal" state for him. How many times do people wear glasses and forget they are on their face? Clear vision from the glasses becomes the "normal" state, so when Renarin had stormlight, it healed him to that normal state. Susebron was already explained by Calderis and Prolific. Lopen got used to his arm missing for a long time, but as per WoB, he never saw himself as a cripple. He never let the lack of an arm define and limit him. Not to get corny but he never saw himself as handicapped, he saw himself as handicapable. Rysn only sees her handicap. She only sees what she is not anymore. She cannot be an explorer because she cannot use her legs. She feels her worth in what she loved ended with the loss of her legs. That is why I believe it cannot be healed yet. So too with Kaladin. His worth is attached in his mind with the slave brands. He still sees himself as a slave and dangerous. He still sees himself as separate. He does not even fully feel he belongs among the bridgemen. So for myself, it all works. But as I said, we have talked about this before and came to different conclusions, so I wish you luck with your theory. 

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

But it is not the radiant's perception that is determination.  Both have some import.  A radiant can not overwhelm your self image as you seem to think.  Both people can impose a limitation but not perks.

I never said it did, only that the evidence strongly suggests that the process is different.  Your assertions that the Only limitation is Self-Image assumes that there cannot be any additional limitations with ReGrowth.  

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

We have discussed this before and amicably decided to agree to disagree. I still believe we are at that point, but I did just want to add one thing. Renarin when healing Adolin, Adolin feels like he sees or feels an idealized version of himself. I think that shows a regrowth user uses the person's ideal self, filtered through their perception, like personal healing does. The reason they can, is apparently they do actually see it, or tap into it because Adolin actually saw/experienced it. So that would account for the trouble of an external healing you are positing. Personally I think regrowth works just like stormlight healing, just it can be done on others. Renarin's eyes healed to me because he wore glasses his whole life, so that became the "normal" state for him. How many times do people wear glasses and forget they are on their face? Clear vision from the glasses becomes the "normal" state, so when Renarin had stormlight, it healed him to that normal state. Susebron was already explained by Calderis and Prolific. Lopen got used to his arm missing for a long time, but as per WoB, he never saw himself as a cripple. He never let the lack of an arm define and limit him. Not to get corny but he never saw himself as handicapped, he saw himself as handicapable. Rysn only sees her handicap. She only sees what she is not anymore. She cannot be an explorer because she cannot use her legs. She feels her worth in what she loved ended with the loss of her legs. That is why I believe it cannot be healed yet. So too with Kaladin. His worth is attached in his mind with the slave brands. He still sees himself as a slave and dangerous. He still sees himself as separate. He does not even fully feel he belongs among the bridgemen. So for myself, it all works. But as I said, we have talked about this before and came to different conclusions, so I wish you luck with your theory. 

I think Ive been unclear in what Im saying here, because it feels like Im having an entirely different conversation than everyone else.  I am not nor have I ever said that ReGrowth does not rely on the target's Self Image, at least I have not intentionally said that. 

What I am saying is that both the evidence we've seen on stage and the first-hand conclusions of the characters is that Regrowth has a relatively consistent Time Limit on it's ability to function (Just like Dalinar's use of Tension to "heal" inanimate objects).  Given that, I think it is a logical fallacy to assume that anyone who cannot be Healed by ReGrowth is limited by their own Self-Image, because doing so entirely dismisses the other limitation that we've been told of for this specific Power.  That's what had be pulling my last three hairs out, I see that as no different than assuming that Lift would have identical limitations as Ferucehmical Subsumer simply because both abilities operate on very similar underlying principles.    

So to be clear: I do not really think that ReGrowth can override a person's self image*, so nobody is going to force Kaladin's scars to heal. But I do think that some people who are beyond the reach of ReGrowth is due to the evident Time Limit, and they might still be able to heal if they themselves become Radiants or Squires, so long as their Self-Image still allows it.   

 

*Disclaimer:  Ok, so I dont really believe that kind of hostile ReGrowth is possible.  But I cannot discount it 100% in light of @Ookla the Prolific's 2nd WOB, which states that in External Healing like a Radiant healing another as his specific example), both perceptions would factor in.  It wouldnt be be OP for a Surge when compared to Soulcasting, after all.  

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

I never said it did, only that the evidence strongly suggests that the process is different.  Your assertions that the Only limitation is Self-Image assumes that there cannot be any additional limitations with ReGrowth.  

I think Ive been unclear in what Im saying here, because it feels like Im having an entirely different conversation than everyone else.  I am not nor have I ever said that ReGrowth does not rely on the target's Self Image, at least I have not intentionally said that. 

What I am saying is that both the evidence we've seen on stage and the first-hand conclusions of the characters is that Regrowth has a relatively consistent Time Limit on it's ability to function (Just like Dalinar's use of Tension to "heal" inanimate objects).  Given that, I think it is a logical fallacy to assume that anyone who cannot be Healed by ReGrowth is limited by their own Self-Image, because doing so entirely dismisses the other limitation that we've been told of for this specific Power.  That's what had be pulling my last three hairs out, I see that as no different than assuming that Lift would have identical limitations as Ferucehmical Subsumer simply because both abilities operate on very similar underlying principles.    

So to be clear: I do not really think that ReGrowth can override a person's self image*, so nobody is going to force Kaladin's scars to heal. But I do think that some people who are beyond the reach of ReGrowth is due to the evident Time Limit, and they might still be able to heal if they themselves become Radiants or Squires, so long as their Self-Image still allows it.   

 

*Disclaimer:  Ok, so I dont really believe that kind of hostile ReGrowth is possible.  But I cannot discount it 100% in light of @Ookla the Prolific's 2nd WOB, which states that in External Healing like a Radiant healing another as his specific example), both perceptions would factor in.  It wouldnt be be OP for a Surge when compared to Soulcasting, after all.  

And I think the reason for the disconnect is from what I gather from you, you are saying that for regrowth, and regrowth only there is a ticking clock. What everyone else is saying, is there isn't a ticking clock. It is the person's perception of themselves. The longer they see themselves as something, and accept that, then healing is not possible. The time can in some circumstances contribute and exacerbate, but it is not the primary cause. We see that carry over across cosmere healing, not just stormlight. So it is from my perspective the equivalency of you saying it rains every tuesday because on two weeks we have seen, it rained on tuesday, while I am saying it rained on tuesday because both days happen to be humid, and a cold front moved in, cooling and resulting in rain. Yes it rained on both tuesdays, but you believe it is connected with the day of the week while I believe the day of the weak is tangential to the process. So for regrowth you feel there is a specific time clock ticking, while others believe it is connected to perception that can at times be influenced by duration though that is not the primary actor. That help?

Edited December 12, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

25 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That help

Yes.

[HSuperLee]

I do have to wonder if we here at the Shard occasionally put too much emphasis on the cognitive filter. Yes, I do believe its important, because otherwise everyone with healing would become a "biologically perfect" human, meeting the ideal of a perfect biological entity (I'm carefully avoiding the statement perfect human because I feel like that's too impersonal and has to much variety from individual to individual.) That said, healing is tapping into the spiritual ideal, and so that probably has some level of importance. I almost want to attribute the difference in regrowth and stormlight to them doing different things with the spiritual aspect of a person. For instance, let's say that regrowth works like what Dalinar did with the stones. He didn't regenerate the stone outward from itself, he reattached two pieces, and then removed the crack. What if (and I'm not saying I necessarily believe this) regrowth merely heals cracks in a spirit web, and reattaches two pieces together? Essentially, it takes connections between two parts of the spirit web and strengthens them, acting like stitches that pull the wounds together. Then you could potentially have stormlight healing work more like a lizard regenerating its tail or a scab forming, where new material is pushed over the wound, rather than old material being pulled back in place. It's not a perfect theory, but it essentially creates Mistborn style push and pull healing types, and might go to explain some differences inother wise very theoretically similar functions.   

[Quantus]

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

And I think the reason for the disconnect is from what I gather from you, you are saying that for regrowth, and regrowth only there is a ticking clock. What everyone else is saying, is there isn't a ticking clock. It is the person's perception of themselves. The longer they see themselves as something, and accept that, then healing is not possible. The time can in some circumstances contribute and exacerbate, but it is not the primary cause. We see that carry over across cosmere healing, not just stormlight. So it is from my perspective the equivalency of you saying it rains every tuesday because on two weeks we have seen, it rained on tuesday, while I am saying it rained on tuesday because both days happen to be humid, and a cold front moved in, cooling and resulting in rain. Yes it rained on both tuesdays, but you believe it is connected with the day of the week while I believe the day of the weak is tangential to the process. So for regrowth you feel there is a specific time clock ticking, while others believe it is connected to perception that can at times be influenced by duration though that is not the primary actor. That help?

Nope, no help at all.  Because Im not the one saying that there is a ticking clock, the character who was using the surge to heal dozens if not hundreds of people was saying there is a ticking clock after he observed that not a single one of them was able to be healed after a few days, even after having seen Radiant healing able to heal long past that.  Everyone else seems to be entirely dismissing that fact because...I have no idea why.  To use your really odd weekday metaphor, there is a guy living in the Arctic Circle telling you that where he lives you can and will never see the sun during the winter, at all ever.  You keep insisting that it must have just be coincidentally cloudy every single day this guy has looked outside, because everywhere you have been that's the only explanation when you cant see the Sun during the day.  

Edited December 13, 2019 by Ookla the Ingeniator

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Nope, no help at all.  Because Im not the one saying that there is a ticking clock, the character who was using the surge to heal dozens if not hundreds of people was saying there is a ticking clock after he observed that not a single one of them was able to be healed after a few days, even after having seen Radiant healing able to heal long past that.  Everyone else seems to be entirely dismissing that fact because...I have no idea why.  To use your really odd weekday metaphor, there is a guy living in the Arctic Circle telling you that where he lives you can and will never see the sun during the winter, at all ever.  You keep insisting that it must have just be coincidentally cloudy every single day this guy has looked outside, because everywhere you have been that's the only explanation when you cant see the Sun during the day.  

Actually this is what dalinar said:

 

Dalinar knew that feeling: the lingering effects of Stormlight. “I should have seen it earlier—I should have sent for him the moment I saw those wounded. I’m a fool.” Dalinar shook his head. “Renarin has the ability to heal. He is new to his powers, as I am to mine, and can best heal those who were recently wounded. I wonder if it’s similar to what I’m doing. Once the soul grows accustomed to the wound, it’s much harder to fix.”

 

So renarin is new to the powers (not an expert on how it works) and states about the soul growing accustomed to the wound,  like what the WoBs we have posted show. But like I said before, we amicably agreed to disagree last time

[Quantus]

10 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But like I said before, we amicably agreed to disagree last time

No, that's fine.  This one bothers me more than it really should; normally I can at least understand where the other side is coming from, can follow the logic of it even if I dont agree with it.  But here I just cant figure out why you folks have decided to discount the presented statements, and so far all Ive been able to glean from the arguments presented are various restatements of "Self-Image is critically important," which I agree is accepted fact but is also beside the point as I see it, because as far as I can tell it can be both easily and without conflict.      

I just hate it when I try and then fail to understand somebody. 

 

 

EDIT:  One Question while we're on the Topic: One of those WOB's mentioned that AonDor had external healing.  It's been too long and I'd entirely forgotten that there was another Cosmere example of external Healing outside of the Returned's Super-Healing with Death Requirement.  Do you recall any details about it?

Edited December 13, 2019 by Ookla the Ingeniator

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

EDIT:  One Question while we're on the Topic: One of those WOB's mentioned that AonDor had external healing.  It's been too long and I'd entirely forgotten that there was another Cosmere example of external Healing outside of the Returned's Super-Healing with Death Requirement.  Do you recall any details about it?

Raoden was healed by an elantrian drawing an Aon. His leg was damaged. Iadon (his father) avoided it as long as he could because he did not want to be seen going to an Elantrian, but Raoden's life was in danger, so Iadon's wife forced him to go. Dilaf's wife was hurt and brought to an Elantrian for healing. The Elantrian messed up the aon and therefore the healing was incomplete which is why she ended up resembling the shaod and killed herself. Raoden tried to heal with the aon on one of his friends, but the aons were still weak at that point, so it tried to heal the entire body, instead of targeting the wound. I also believe Raoden tried to heal someone injured in Teo, but due to his hand injuries from Dilaf, he was unable to draw the aon. I will need to go back later to pull up the exact scenes and WoB

[StanLemon]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Raoden was healed by an elantrian drawing an Aon. His leg was damaged. Iadon (his father) avoided it as long as he could because he did not want to be seen going to an Elantrian, but Raoden's life was in danger, so Iadon's wife forced him to go. Dilaf's wife was hurt and brought to an Elantrian for healing. The Elantrian messed up the aon and therefore the healing was incomplete which is why she ended up resembling the shaod and killed herself. Raoden tried to heal with the aon on one of his friends, but the aons were still weak at that point, so it tried to heal the entire body, instead of targeting the wound. I also believe Raoden tried to heal someone injured in Teo, but due to his hand injuries from Dilaf, he was unable to draw the aon. I will need to go back later to pull up the exact scenes and WoB

The fact that AonDor healing can do that kind of change shows there is likely a difference between internal and external healing beyond the recipient's own cognitive filter. Nobody's Ideal of themselves is going to be a zombie. Sure the Aon was messed up but every other instance of an Aon being wrong that we have seen has been a weakening of effect, not a complete change in affect.

[Pathfinder]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The fact that AonDor healing can do that kind of change shows there is likely a difference between internal and external healing beyond the recipient's own cognitive filter. Nobody's Ideal of themselves is going to be a zombie. Sure the Aon was messed up but every other instance of an Aon being wrong that we have seen has been a weakening of effect, not a complete change in affect.

So I had a chance to do some digging. First off I do not believe the aons are pertinent to the discussion, because in every instance, the injury was healed shortly after it was sustained, so there would not have been time to either surpass the proposed time limit (as per Quantus) or incorporate in the self view (what others have been saying). As to what occured to Dilaf's wife, it is because the aon was not completed. Here is the scene:

 

"It wasn't an error so much as an omission" Raoden said "He left out one of the three basic lines. A foolish error, but it shouldn't have had such a drastic effect" Raoden studied the page thoughtfully "It's almost like... Well, the Aon wasn't completed right? So maybe the healing began, but couldn't finish because its instructions weren't complete. What if the mistake still created a viable Aon - one that could access the Dor, but couldn't provide enough energy to finish what it started?"

"Don't you see - our bodies are trapped in some kind of half transformation. The process began, but something blocked it - just like in that woman's healing. The Dor is still within us, waiting for the direction and the energy to finish what it started. That's why our bodies never heal - it's like they're trapped in the same moment in time. Forzen, like a fish in a block of ice. The pain doesn't go away because our bodies think time isn't passing. They're stuck, waiting for the end of their transformation. Our hair falls away and nothing new grows to replace it. Our skin turns black in spots where the Shaod began, then halted as it ran out of strength"

 

So the ideal is not to be a zombie. Being a zombie is you being a number of steps shy of reaching the ideal when the power runs out. So I feel it still falls in line with what I was saying. Now below I am going to post some WoB. I post them fully knowing and acknowledging that they are probably not enough to convince Quantus and Stanlemon, and that is ok. I am just posting them because they are enough for myself, and for completeness sake. Here they are:

 

Questioner

Would [healing] something like a birth defect, would that require somebody to have Regrowth, or can they do it with just Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how they envision themselves.

Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014)

 

 

R'Shara

Would Stormlight healing, Progression, or Feruchemical gold healing count as some of the ways that a transgender person could change their body to match their identity?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Those would work. In fact, that's kind of the main way that you would make that happen. Injections of Investiture making the body match the Spiritual and Cognitive.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

 

Questioner

I notice that Stormlight seems to be a bit volatile in how well it heals or who it heals. Because it seems like Renarin's eyesight would have been a long term problem, kinda like Rysn's legs maybe and Lopen's arm. But Lopen's arm got healed, Rysn's legs didn't and Kaladin's scars didn't. So I didn't know if there was a reason for those things.

Brandon Sanderson

So Stormlight healing, there's a couple things that have to be considered. But in reference to what you're saying, the person's perception of themselves is a huge part of it.  The way healing works in the cosmere is, you've got the three versions of yourself. You've got your Physical version, your Cognitive version, and your Spiritual version, And a lot of Stormlight is taking your Physical version and matching it to the Spiritual version which is your ideal self.  But it has to be filtered through the lens of your mind, and things like this.

I almost always--probably should say always--am using it to reinforce some sort of character attribute. The fact that Lopen never saw himself, even though he only had one arm, as being disabled, as a big influence, versus whether Kaladin feels deserves his brands or not. Does that makes sense?  And those are two very different things that influence how the healing works. And you will see that as a metaphor and theme, if you watch what heals and what doesn't.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

 

Questioner

Stormlight, I know it heals wounds and stuff like that but can it heal illnesses like colds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes it can.

Questioner

So if Kaladin suddenly contracted brain cancer...

Brandon Sanderson

It's plausible-- it depends, see what it does is it takes your body and makes it align with your spirit, and partially through the filter of how you view yourself. So if you view yourself as sickly, then you won't.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

 

 

Questioner

Lopen's arm. In Stormlight, you cannot regrow if your brain-- your soul has accepted the change?

Brandon Sanderson

Perception is very important to this, yes.

Questioner

So is he just crazy enough to believe that he still had an arm?

Brandon Sanderson

No, it's more like, he never saw himself as being-- he saw himself as the person *inaudible* and not being disabled by what happened to him. It's not craziness, it's just a matter of perception. What you're running into Kaladin with his brands in particular is that he thinks he deserves them.

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)

 

[StanLemon]

34 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So I had a chance to do some digging. First off I do not believe the aons are pertinent to the discussion, because in every instance, the injury was healed shortly after it was sustained, so there would not have been time to either surpass the proposed time limit (as per Quantus) or incorporate in the self view (what others have been saying). As to what occured to Dilaf's wife, it is because the aon was not completed. Here is the scene:

 

"It wasn't an error so much as an omission" Raoden said "He left out one of the three basic lines. A foolish error, but it shouldn't have had such a drastic effect" Raoden studied the page thoughtfully "It's almost like... Well, the Aon wasn't completed right? So maybe the healing began, but couldn't finish because its instructions weren't complete. What if the mistake still created a viable Aon - one that could access the Dor, but couldn't provide enough energy to finish what it started?"

"Don't you see - our bodies are trapped in some kind of half transformation. The process began, but something blocked it - just like in that woman's healing. The Dor is still within us, waiting for the direction and the energy to finish what it started. That's why our bodies never heal - it's like they're trapped in the same moment in time. Forzen, like a fish in a block of ice. The pain doesn't go away because our bodies think time isn't passing. They're stuck, waiting for the end of their transformation. Our hair falls away and nothing new grows to replace it. Our skin turns black in spots where the Shaod began, then halted as it ran out of strength"

 

So the ideal is not to be a zombie. Being a zombie is you being a number of steps shy of reaching the ideal when the power runs out. So I feel it still falls in line with what I was saying. Now below I am going to post some WoB. I post them fully knowing and acknowledging that they are probably not enough to convince Quantus and Stanlemon, and that is ok. I am just posting them because they are enough for myself, and for completeness sake. Here they are: 

Aon's are pertinent because they do supply Cosmere healing via an external source.

The zombie effect makes sense for the Elantrian transformation but not healing. As I've said, every other case of an incomplete Aon we have seen is a weakening of effect. I'm aware that self perception are vital to healing and have myself explained it to people who have brought up the question. But we have canonical examples of things where there are implications of there being more to it

Edited December 13, 2019 by StanLemon

[Pathfinder]

17 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Aon's are pertinent because they do supply Cosmere healing via an external source.

To clarify, there is not an example of aonic healing where it shows an "ah ha!" moment that proves either there is a time limit, or perception matters. It proves nothing, so that is why I said it was not pertinent. Raoden broke his leg. It got infected. They brought it to an Elantrian and it got healed. If his leg was amputated for instance, and he went later as an adult, then we could glean something from it. Same thing with Dilaf's wife. 

17 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The zombie effect makes sense for the Elantrian transformation but not healing. As I've said, every other case of an incomplete Aon we have seen is a weakening of effect. I'm aware that self perception are vital to healing and have myself explained it to people who have brought up the question. But we have canonical examples of things where there are implications of there being more to it

Every instance we have seen of an incompleted Aon is it is not strong enough to complete the effect. As Raoden said, the healing was unable to complete. We have two annotations from Brandon confirming this:

Brandon Sanderson

Dilaf's Backstory

I hope that Dilaf's explanations about his past are suitably creepy. I also hope they give some explanation. He is a man who betrayed his religion when he thought it would save the woman he loved–only to find himself, in turn, betrayed by the Elantrians. His wife became Hoed, and he himself burned her. This would have something of an effect on a man's psyche, I think.

Now, recall that Elantris was at the height of its power when Dilaf took his wife in to be healed. I mentioned her earlier in the book, in a Raoden chapter. He found a story in one of his textbooks about a woman who was improperly-healed, and it turned her into what the Elantrians now are. This is Dilaf's wife. (Go re-read Chapter Twenty-Five for the story.) I find this little item beautifully circular.

Anyway, we now have an explanation for Dilaf's instability and his hatred. I really like how Dilaf, normatively, grows into being the prime villain for this book. He comes to it slowly, kind of stealthily, while the reader is focusing on Hrathen. Yet, Dilaf is there from the first Hrathen chapter, always dangerous, always trying to destroy Elantris, always making his own plans. I worked hard to bring about his rise to power in the book, and I hope that it worked. Puling off the Dilaf/Hrathen reversal was one of my main goals in the story.

Elantris Annotations (April 10, 2006)

 

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

Hrathen

So, Hrathen wasn't really dead. (Ironically, while many of you are probably saying "yeah, yeah. That was obvious," I actually didn't have him appear here in the first eight drafts of the book. I'll explain later.)

I think this is my favorite scene of this chapter. Not only is it written a little better than the rest of the book (I added it quite late–just this last summer) but it gives final closure to the Hrathen-Dilaf relationship. It uses Hrathen's time in Dakhor as an ironic twist against Dilaf. In short, it is a pretty good scene. Fulfills character, plot, and theme at the same time–while giving us a nice image to boot. (Though I do hate to do the "Hey look, a guy we thought was dead is really alive" twist.)

The story behind this scene is pretty recent. One of the original rewrites Moshe asked for was a fix of the ending, which he thought was too Deus Ex Machina. (Which, indeed, it was.) I don't think I'll go into the entire original version here–it was quite different. You can read the alternate ending in the deleted scenes section, when I throw it up next month. The short of it, however, is that Ien (Raoden's seon) showed up to save Raoden and Sarene from Dilaf. I used a mechanic of the magic system that I have since pretty much cut from the novel (since it was only in the book to facilitate this scene) that allowed Ien to complete his Aon, "healing" Dilaf. Except, since Ien's Aon was broken, it turned Dilaf into an Elantrian instead. (A non-glowing Elantrian. One like Raoden the group used to be–like Dilaf's own wife became after she was improperly healed in Elantris.)

I know that's probably confusing to you. The scene, over all, was just kind of weak. It relied on a barely-explained mechanic mixed with a tangential character showing up at just the right moment. When Moshe asked for the change, I immediately saw that I needed to bring Hrathen back to life for a few more moments. Letting him die on the street just wasn't dignified enough (though originally I wanted him to die this way because it felt more realistic.) I wanted a final confrontation between Hrathen and Dilaf, since it would give most people's favorite character a heroic send-off, and would also let me tie in the aforementioned Dakhor irony.

In the end, I was very pleased with the rewrite. It's good to have an editor.

Elantris Annotations (May 15, 2006)

[Quantus]

12 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Aon's are pertinent because they do supply Cosmere healing via an external source.

The zombie effect makes sense for the Elantrian transformation but not healing. As I've said, every other case of an incomplete Aon we have seen is a weakening of effect. I'm aware that self perception are vital to healing and have myself explained it to people who have brought up the question. But we have canonical examples of things where there are implications of there being more to it

This is basically where Im at. To @Pathfinder's point, the Aon case is certainly far from an ideal comparison case given how many exceptions to various Cosmere Rules are already involved with the Dor, but as one of if not the the only example of External Healing besides ReGrowth, so at the very least I think it can be a great counter-example to show that not all Healing works exactly the same way with exactly the same limitations.

That being said, I would love to see somebody ask if the Aon is itself the same sort of Spiritual Healing, or if being a Dor-based Reality Programming Language perhaps it uniquely operates on some more fully Cognitive mechanism?  As @StanLemon pointed out, such a dramatic failure of the healing doesnt really fit with the Spiritual Ideal mechanism which simply stops when it's power runs out but does have any "process" that can be prematurely interupted like a botched surgery.  I think the Aon might be a little more "brute force" that is manipulating the physical in a medical manner more directly rather than restoring the Ideal, something that is fiddling with cell division and things like that. It's kinda like how Jasnah "healed" Shallan of that Points that time, but rather than using Shallan's Ideal she simply replaced all of her blood via soulcasting.  Has she messed up Shallan could have theoretically ended up with Strawberry Jam in her veins.  

[StanLemon]

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

To clarify, there is not an example of aonic healing where it shows an "ah ha!" moment that proves either there is a time limit, or perception matters. It proves nothing, so that is why I said it was not pertinent. Raoden broke his leg. It got infected. They brought it to an Elantrian and it got healed. If his leg was amputated for instance, and he went later as an adult, then we could glean something from it. Same thing with Dilaf's wife. 

I never said there was an "ah ha" moment. There is a reason I used the word implication

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Every instance we have seen of an incompleted Aon is it is not strong enough to complete the effect. As Raoden said, the healing was unable to complete. We have two annotations from Brandon confirming this: 

And those annotations say absolutely nothing about whether external healing works differently or otherwise. The fact that she was able to become Hoed rather than just not heal properly for me at least is evidence that there is something more to it. I know that won't be enough to convince you, but to me that is a contradiction between books and WoB which he himself has said that books trump WoB

[Calderis]

AonDor is very much an outlier here. 

Sel in general, is an outlier. Yes normal cosmere mechanics apply in some ways but in many many ways the mechanics of the Dor are unique. 

Healing Aons are insanely detailed and complicated. Considering what Aons do, I think their methods have far far more to do with the program of the Aon than any of the normal mechanisms that govern healing in other systems.

Aon Ien in its base form, used without Modifiers may default to basic mechanics, but all of the bug healing we've heard of were not that. 

[StanLemon]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

AonDor is very much an outlier here. 

Sel in general, is an outlier. Yes normal cosmere mechanics apply in some ways but in many many ways the mechanics of the Dor are unique. 

Healing Aons are insanely detailed and complicated. Considering what Aons do, I think their methods have far far more to do with the program of the Aon than any of the normal mechanisms that govern healing in other systems.

Aon Ien in its base form, used without Modifiers may default to basic mechanics, but all of the bug healing we've heard of were not that. 

Calling it an outlier admits that there are other rules governing healing. You can't just say "this is an exception" and while yes Elantris was written before he fully envisioned the Cosmere and Aons are complicated yes but at the end of the day, it acts differently which means other healings can have there own rules.

Edited December 15, 2019 by StanLemon

[Calderis]

21 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Calling it an outlier admits that there are other rules governing healing. You can't just say "this is an exception" and while yes Elantris was written before he fully envisioned the Cosmere and Aons are complicated yes but at the end of the day, it acts differently which means other healings can have there own rules.

Which shouldn't have ever been in question. 

As my first post in this thread mentions, Susebron's tongue was a situation that shouldn't have been possible via standard Cosmere healing, but the Divine Breath can manage. 

Are we debating particulars, or base mechanics?

AonDor healing is still based on in whatever the standard functions are, with things being able to be bent to fit along whatever extra parameters are coded.

The Divine Breath can impart things above and beyond normal including the muscle memory required for speech to not be awkward and clumsy. 

Internal vs external healing has an additional person's perception and intent added into the mix. 

For this discussion to be clear, you have to designate what it is you're trying to discuss. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Calderis

[StanLemon]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Which shouldn't have ever been in question. 

As my first post in this thread mentions, Susebron's tongue was a situation that shouldn't have been possible via standard Cosmere healing, but the Divine Breath can manage. 

Are we debating particulars, or base mechanics?

AonDor healing is still based on in whatever the standard functions are, with things being able to be bent to fit along whatever extra parameters are coded.

The Divine Breath can impart things above and beyond normal including the muscle memory required for speech to not be awkward and clumsy. 

Internal vs external healing has an additional person's perception and intent added into the mix. 

For this discussion to be clear, you have to designate what it is you're trying to discuss. 

These were the points I exactly was trying to make. That there was more to healing than just self perception. I mistook your AonDor comment as you arguing against that fact.

[Pathfinder]

On 12/13/2019 at 3:52 PM, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

This is basically where Im at. To @Pathfinder's point, the Aon case is certainly far from an ideal comparison case given how many exceptions to various Cosmere Rules are already involved with the Dor, but as one of if not the the only example of External Healing besides ReGrowth, so at the very least I think it can be a great counter-example to show that not all Healing works exactly the same way with exactly the same limitations.

That being said, I would love to see somebody ask if the Aon is itself the same sort of Spiritual Healing, or if being a Dor-based Reality Programming Language perhaps it uniquely operates on some more fully Cognitive mechanism?  As @StanLemon pointed out, such a dramatic failure of the healing doesnt really fit with the Spiritual Ideal mechanism which simply stops when it's power runs out but does have any "process" that can be prematurely interupted like a botched surgery.  I think the Aon might be a little more "brute force" that is manipulating the physical in a medical manner more directly rather than restoring the Ideal, something that is fiddling with cell division and things like that. It's kinda like how Jasnah "healed" Shallan of that Points that time, but rather than using Shallan's Ideal she simply replaced all of her blood via soulcasting.  Has she messed up Shallan could have theoretically ended up with Strawberry Jam in her veins.  

Aons function the way they function because the power of the shards are shoved in the cognitive realm, where they normally do not exist. Normally the power of a shard resides in the spiritual realm. Aons, like the rest of the magic systems on Sel are location dependant. Every form of power on Sel requires some shape that mimics the land they are from. From aons, to martial arts, to dakhor, to forgery, to blood sealing, to potions. All require a base symbol because of the cognitive limitation. As Honor’s power, though the vessel is dead, resides in the spiritual realm, that is the first reason why I do not believe the way Aon’s work is applicable in the specific cirmstance we are discussing. Raoden himself says the reason for the result is because the aon did not have the correct modifiers to complete the task. Jasnah was using soulcasting to soulcast new blood. Nothing to me about soulcasting has to deal with healing. It is matter transmutation. She soulcasted the existing blood into different blood of the same type. The new blood did not have the same impurities (poison) the original blood did). Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the point you were making was that external healing has a hard time limit, while every other personal healing does not. I will take examples we have had in the book to illustrate this better

Lopen is missing an arm. His arm is healed when he is able to draw in stormlight. Brandon has said the reason Lopen was able to heal his arm was due to him never accepting himself as handicap. So you are saying had Renarin gone over to Lopen to heal him with regrowth, Lopen would still have a stump, even though he never accepted himself as having a handicap because this hard time limit has already long ago passed

Kaladin with his slave brands. When Kaladin heals with stormlight, his brands remain. Brandon has said the reason Kaladin is unable to heal his brands is because he sees the brands as part of who he is. The tattooing done over the brand heals immediately. You are saying had Kaladin not become a radiant to heal with stormlight, and went to Renarin for healing of the brands, because of a hard time limit, the brands would remain. Also had Kaladin waited a certain amount of time after getting the tattoo on his forehead and gone to Renarin, then the tattoo would be unable to be healed because of the hard limit time frame.

Rysn as a paraplegic. Dalinar said that he believes the soul adjusts to the wound. I think this is line with the earlier explanations of cosmere healing. You are going on Rysn’s statement that it has been too long since her injury. So you are saying that had Rysn been brought to Renarin shortly after falling, she would be restored, but because the hard time limit passed, she is unable to be healed. That the only way for her to now walk is for her to become a radiant, and inhale stormlight.

Now as an aside, I have a follow up question. If Rysn still views herself as a paraplegic, but becomes a radiant, and inhales stormlight, are you saying she will be healed, or not? Will she remain a paraplegic, or not?

Back to the main portion, my point is there is no hard time limit. The longer you have a wound, the greater the chance you will think of it as part of yourself, so the more likely the wound will be unable to be healed. However, if you do not accept the wound as part of yourself (Lopen), you will be healed. I take Dalinar’s statement over Rysn’s statement. You disagree. I respect that and to each their own. I will continue to respond to StanLemon because I feel he or she has misunderstood what I was trying to say, then I will leave it because it is clear to me that unless we literally see either:

1.       Renarin testing his healing with multiple people till he can confidently say “if you are wounded for two days, I cannot heal you”

2.       Rysn regain confidence in herself, and not see herself as a cripple, and Renarin then heals her.

As both are extremely specific circumstances, I do not think we will either see it on screen anytime soon, or at all. Which is why I said before to each their own. Agree to disagree.

On 12/13/2019 at 4:12 PM, StanLemon said:

I never said there was an "ah ha" moment. There is a reason I used the word implication

And those annotations say absolutely nothing about whether external healing works differently or otherwise. The fact that she was able to become Hoed rather than just not heal properly for me at least is evidence that there is something more to it. I know that won't be enough to convince you, but to me that is a contradiction between books and WoB which he himself has said that books trump WoB

That was my point. I thought what we were discussing is whether or not external healing had a hard time limit. The information we have regarding aons does not (to me) provide any insight on whether or not external healing has a hard time limit. That is why I stated I felt it was not pertinent. To me there is no contradiction. Raoden said the modifier was missing, so there was not enough power to complete the healing. The annotations say the same thing. So I do not see a contradiction between book and WoB.

On 12/14/2019 at 2:59 PM, Calderis said:

AonDor is very much an outlier here. 

Sel in general, is an outlier. Yes normal cosmere mechanics apply in some ways but in many many ways the mechanics of the Dor are unique. 

Healing Aons are insanely detailed and complicated. Considering what Aons do, I think their methods have far far more to do with the program of the Aon than any of the normal mechanisms that govern healing in other systems.

Aon Ien in its base form, used without Modifiers may default to basic mechanics, but all of the bug healing we've heard of were not that. 

That seems (to me) to be a function of dominion and devotions powers being in the cognitive realm, and not the spiritual which is the normal state for the shards power. 

On 12/14/2019 at 7:42 PM, StanLemon said:

Calling it an outlier admits that there are other rules governing healing. You can't just say "this is an exception" and while yes Elantris was written before he fully envisioned the Cosmere and Aons are complicated yes but at the end of the day, it acts differently which means other healings can have there own rules.

Sel can have a unique mechanic because we have (to me) a very clear and definable difference between Sel magics, and the rest of the cosmere. The power of the shard is in the cognitive realm. Regardless as I said earlier, any of the information we have on Aons do not provide commentary on the time limit, which is what I could have sworn was what we were discussing.

On 12/14/2019 at 8:15 PM, StanLemon said:

These were the points I exactly was trying to make. That there was more to healing than just self perception. I mistook your AonDor comment as you arguing against that fact.

I feel you are misrepresenting what I am trying to say. If I read you correctly, you are saying that I say the entirety of cosmere healing is focused on self perception and self perception only. That is not what I feel I am saying at all. I am saying that I believe the time limit was a misnomer. We all thought there was a time limit on stormlight healing as well, till Lopen healed his arm. That was shown not to be so much time, as accepting the wound as part of you. So I do not think there is a hard time limit, that if you wait one second too long on the limit, you cannot heal. You disagree. At this point I do not feel there is anything information wise we have at hand that can conclusively say one way or the other, so I agree to disagree.

[StanLemon]

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

 

I feel you are misrepresenting what I am trying to say. If I read you correctly, you are saying that I say the entirety of cosmere healing is focused on self perception and self perception only. That is not what I feel I am saying at all. I am saying that I believe the time limit was a misnomer. We all thought there was a time limit on stormlight healing as well, till Lopen healed his arm. That was shown not to be so much time, as accepting the wound as part of you. So I do not think there is a hard time limit, that if you wait one second too long on the limit, you cannot heal. You disagree. At this point I do not feel there is anything information wise we have at hand that can conclusively say one way or the other, so I agree to disagree.

The quote just before thos was in response to Calderis's statement specifically. This one.

On 12/14/2019 at 6:04 PM, Calderis said:

Which shouldn't have ever been in question. 

As my first post in this thread mentions, Susebron's tongue was a situation that shouldn't have been possible via standard Cosmere healing, but the Divine Breath can manage. 

Are we debating particulars, or base mechanics?

AonDor healing is still based on in whatever the standard functions are, with things being able to be bent to fit along whatever extra parameters are coded.

The Divine Breath can impart things above and beyond normal including the muscle memory required for speech to not be awkward and clumsy. 

Internal vs external healing has an additional person's perception and intent added into the mix. 

For this discussion to be clear, you have to designate what it is you're trying to discuss. 

I do have the assumption that you were saying that self perception was the defining factor or Investiture healing which the your statements implied to me at least. I agree that, as we've seen Lopen regrow his arm, there is no hard time limit which. Considering you think I disagree with that, i think there was a bit of misunderstanding on both sides leading to the kind of situation where we were having two different conversations. 

It seems now to me after your clarification you were talking that the only time limit is however long it takes a person's self perception to think of the wound as part of them. If they ever accept it as part of them that is. Am I correct in that statement? I was talking about (or trying to at least) how there was more to healing than just self perception (at least in regards to external healing) such as what happened with Lightsong healing  Susebron

Edited December 17, 2019 by StanLemon