Darkrib

Question about F-Gold

55 posts in this topic

So we know that F-Gold stores health and can heal near-fatal wounds, as seen in Miles. My question involves more the psychological impact of F-Gold. There was a famous case about Phineas Gage, where he suffered a brain injury in which he survived. Afterwards, his personality drastically shifted. This kind of thing should have happened with Miles, yet he has taken shotgun blasts to the head and have no notable personality shift. My question is involving this aspect. 

We know the cosmere is separated into three levels, the Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual. When people die, we see that their cognitive shadow seems to carry on their personality and memories. Would the Phineas Gage case even occur in the cosmere? If they heal, would their brain reconnect to the cognitive self reform inside them and have no personality shift? I find that unlikely, it seems to me that the personality could not be conserved without some form of magic. Assuming that Phineas Gage would still happen, the question is does gold store this cognitive aspect as well as the physical? If someone stores gold, gets injured similar to Gage, heals naturally, has the personality shift and then taps the gold stored previously, would it restore their old personality or do nothing? Is it the case that healing with the gold such as Miles preserves that cognitive aspect or does the brain not effect personality or link to the cognitive realm?

I know it is a really strange and specific question but I feel that something doesn't sit right with the link between F-Gold healing and Personality in regard to brain injury.

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I think it would heal to the Spiritual Ideal filtered by the Cognitive aspect of the person, so pretty close to the original personality. People have had their heads removed and healed back to their old selves with F-gold, after all.

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In the case of reattaching a head, it is the same brain being reconnected. What about when creating a new part of the brain altogether?

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11 minutes ago, Darkrib said:

In the case of reattaching a head, it is the same brain being reconnected. What about when creating a new part of the brain altogether?

No, I'm talking about the head actually regrows.

Quote

Halel (paraphrased)

If I were to cut an Elantrian's head off, would it still live? Just the head, the body, both or perhaps neither of them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The body would grow a new head, as most of the soul is in that part.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 18, 2019)

Quote

Pinpoint (paraphrased)

If Hoid got beheaded, would his body grow a new head?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Pinpoint (paraphrased)

What if Hoid got cut by a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Shardblade cuts the soul and what Hoid does heals the soul.

Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014)

And Stormlight spoilers

Spoiler

Shallan had an arrow through her head, causing enough damage that she couldn't speak properly. She pulled it out and was the same as before.

 

Edited by RShara
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Spoiler

In the Stormlight series someone uses a similar method to f-gold to heal from an arrow being impaled in their head. They suffer the effects of brain damage until the arrow is removed, but once it is the effects are healed. Let me know if this is spoiler enough to require being hidden.

Edit: RShara beat me to it.

Edited by HSuperLee
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So would that same effect happen if someone were to heal naturally as Gage did? If only part of the brain was damage and restored, would the new tissue and personality have the spiritual self filtered through their cognitive or is that filtering specific to invested healing abilities such as F-Gold, Stormlight or whatever Hoid does. I don't remember any character healing a head injury through normal means, I believe all of them had some sort of magical healing effect

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Natural biological healing in the Cosmere wouldn't work the same way that the various magical forms of healing do, because natural healing doesn't involve messing around with one's Spiritual template. Edgedancer spoiler:

Spoiler

We see a child in that novella who's been mentally affected by an old head wound. He healed normally, not having access to magic. Later when Stump unconsciously uses Regrowth on him, he begins to recover his wits.

 

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It depends on the length of time he had the injury.  Lets do a thought experiment.  If I were to "heal" some moldy bread it could go one of two ways.  The bread could be pushed to the spiritual ideal of bread or the spiritual ideal of mold depending on which it felt it was more.  Is the moldy piece of bread still bread or has it finally become mold?  Which is its ideal self?  Similarly if you were to loose part of your brain(like happens to stroke victims) it would depend if the ideal version of you was still the one that part of the brain or without one.  I am guessing like with most injuries it would depend on time.  The longer you are without a piece of your brain the more likely it is that you consider that version of yourself the perfect you.  As to the other part of your question.  Miles always heals his injures more or less instantaneously so for him it is not a problem.

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@Ookla the Prolific I don't think time matters too much at all. Warbreaker and Stormlight spoilers

Spoiler

As we see in Warbreaker, Susebron has his tongue heal by the use of Lightsong's breathe. I assume the healing is similar to how stormlight or F-gold works. Susebron didn't have his tongue most of his life and as a result that was pretty much the "default" state of him. I think it more depends on how you view yourself. Kaladin's scar doesn't heal because that's how he views himself. So I think how you view yourself is more important than how long you've had the injury. 

 

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1 hour ago, Harames said:

@Ookla the Prolific I don't think time matters too much at all. Warbreaker and Stormlight spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

As we see in Warbreaker, Susebron has his tongue heal by the use of Lightsong's breathe. I assume the healing is similar to how stormlight or F-gold works. Susebron didn't have his tongue most of his life and as a result that was pretty much the "default" state of him. I think it more depends on how you view yourself. Kaladin's scar doesn't heal because that's how he views himself. So I think how you view yourself is more important than how long you've had the injury. 

 

Additionally, Renarin's eyes are healed even though he wore glasses for a while.  His personality seems more like he would see himself as "broken" though.

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2 hours ago, Harames said:

@Ookla the Prolific I don't think time matters too much at all. Warbreaker and Stormlight spoilers

  Hide contents

As we see in Warbreaker, Susebron has his tongue heal by the use of Lightsong's breathe. I assume the healing is similar to how stormlight or F-gold works. Susebron didn't have his tongue most of his life and as a result that was pretty much the "default" state of him. I think it more depends on how you view yourself. Kaladin's scar doesn't heal because that's how he views himself. So I think how you view yourself is more important than how long you've had the injury. 

 

That and the (should be Spoilered) one by @wallyrocket are the exception, not the rule.

The warbreaker jn stance is something specific to that variety of healing. 

Spoiler
Quote

Kurkistan

Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

Brandon Sanderson

Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

Kurkistan

And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so *sounds hesitant* "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

Kurkistan

So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak?

Brandon Sanderson

You are... *LONG pause* You are, um, on the right track.

Kurkistan

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of deity, right?

Kurkistan

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the deity Endowment, correct?

Kurkistan

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is "yes", kind of true, yes.

Kurkistan

But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself-

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes yes exactly.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Quote

Peter Ahlstrom

I asked Brandon about Susebron's tongue, and he said that it would not have been possible for him to regrow it anytime he wanted to. Brandon will be exploring the limits of the self-image modification of Returned in the sequel.

TWG Posts (Aug. 23, 2009)

 

To Wally's stormlight bit... 

Spoiler

Renarin and Lopen didn't accept those as a part of themselves and so they were able to heal them. 

But Kaladin's scars and Rysn's legs show the normal case, as is explained that if an injury has set to long Renarin can't heal them. 

And it's not even a conscious acceptance. Rysn hates what's happened to her, but she already thinks of herself as crippled, and so she does not heal, despite having visited Renarin. 

The rules are complicated, but they exist as others have presented. 

Edited by Calderis
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11 hours ago, Harames said:

 I don't think time matters too much at all. Warbreaker and Stormlight spoilers

All of the referenced people saw themselves as "better" with the parts regrown.  Cal has the WoBs as usual.

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9 hours ago, Calderis said:

That and the (should be Spoilered) one by @wallyrocket are the exception, not the rule.

The warbreaker jn stance is something specific to that variety of healing. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

To Wally's stormlight bit... 

  Reveal hidden contents

Renarin and Lopen didn't accept those as a part of themselves and so they were able to heal them. 

But Kaladin's scars and Rysn's legs show the normal case, as is explained that if an injury has set to long Renarin can't heal them. 

And it's not even a conscious acceptance. Rysn hates what's happened to her, but she already thinks of herself as crippled, and so she does not heal, despite having visited Renarin. 

The rules are complicated, but they exist as others have presented. 

The one example I still get hung up on is

Spoiler

Rhys.  I really, really dont think she has "accepted" herself as a cripple, specifically because of the way she still tries to hop up and get tea and whatnot.  If she had accepted it deep enough to become part of her Self (even if she didnt like the fact) she should be well past the point where she would "forget" that she's crippled like that.  All that to say I'm convinced there is something additionally unique with the Regrowth, specifically, as compared to other more "standard" cosmere spiritual healing.  

 

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I think the example of Rhys is more a difference between an external application of the Surge of Regrowth, and the internal application of Stormlight healing.

Bisig and Hobber from Bridge Four survived Szeth's attack on Dalinar in the hallway of the "palace" at the warcamps, but with Shardblade wounds that left them with useless limbs and legs. Renarin wasn't able to heal them either - it's mentioned that he tried to do so - but once they squired up to the point of drawing in Stormlight, they healed themselves.

Renarin and "the Stump" are able to heal injuries they don't understand or know about in detail, so I don't think it's that they're healing someone else based on their own image of what they should be; it must be that Regrowth and Stormlight healing works much better when it's activated by someone for who it's own Spiritual image.

And we see that Renarin is able to use Regrowth, especially when supercharged with Stormlight at Thaylen Fields, to be able to cut with his Blade while actively being smushed by a Thunderclast. So it's way more powerful when he uses it on himself than when he heals another person.

That said, one morbid thing I've been wondering is, how much of a severed body part could be regenerated with Stormlight? I was reading an account of survival cannibalism (the airplane crash in the Andes with the soccer team on it from the 1970s), and I started to wonder how many calories were in a human body part, and if Lift could have a net gain of Investiture by cutting a fleshy chunk of herself, eating it, and healing it. (I really, really wish I hadn't thought of that, but there you are, and now it's in your head too.)

Or on a less morbid note, what if a KR lost 1/3 of their body three times, regenerating from it each time, then Vasher or Vivenna stitched up the three parts and made a Lifeless out of it (only requires a single Breath!). Wouldn't that be like a really effective Doppelganger body double? Even better than Shallan's "ghost army" of Lightweaving - rush Moash with a dozen Kaladin Lifeless "clones" each wielding a large Sylspear lookalike, only one of which is the REAL Kaladin. (I guess the real Sylspear would be glowing in a telltale way, maybe use Lightweaving to duplicate that bit.)

Edited by robardin
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Guys, this is the Mistborn forum. Anything not part of Mistborn needs to be spoilered!

@wallyrocket @robardin

Edited by RShara
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2 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

The one example I still get hung up on is

She accepts herself as flawed and useless.  So yes she is has.

Edited by Ookla the Prolific
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I've taken the liberty to move this topic to Cosmere Discussion, as the discussion has moved on to cross-series connections. Please tag spoilers appropriately in the future, @wallyrocket and @robardin.

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31 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

She accepts herself as flawed and useless.  So yes she is has.

The same could have been said of Renarin, and his eyesight healed up.  But that entirely ignores my point, which was that her subconscious, reflexive behavior still believes she can walk and tries to act accordingly.  That tells me she hasnt actually internalized it as part of her Self yet, despite of her current state of depression.  

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9 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

The same could have been said of Renarin, and his eyesight healed up

Renarin did not see his eyesight as the flaw that kept him from being useful.

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

But that entirely ignores my point, which was that her subconscious, reflexive behavior still believes she can walk and tries to act accordingly

That is her cognitive self not her spiritual.

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My two cents. I think if someone had a brain injury that changed their personality it would depend on how much they consider the damage and the new personality as who they are versus something that happened to them.

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45 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Renarin did not see his eyesight as the flaw that kept him from being useful.

Renarin (arguably) saw himself as flawed in ways that kept him from being useful, both his eyesight and his seizures.  

45 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

That is her cognitive self not her spiritual.

See, I would argue the opposite:  that her current feelings of being "flawed and useless" are the more transient Cognitive parts, while the fact that she still tries to stand subconsciously shows that her deeper self-image has not incorporated the damage.  

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13 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Renarin (arguably) saw himself as flawed in ways that kept him from being useful, both his eyesight and his seizures.  

Mostly his seizures.

14 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

See, I would argue the opposite:  that her current feelings of being "flawed and useless" are the more transient Cognitive parts, while the fact that she still tries to stand subconsciously shows that her deeper self-image has not incorporated the damage.  

A decent argument.  Perhaps on an even deeper level she is fighting the healing for some reason?

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2 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Mostly his seizures.

A decent argument.  Perhaps on an even deeper level she is fighting the healing for some reason?

Always a possibility I suppose. But I dont think so, only because I think it more likely that Progression simply has different rules because it's an External Healing rather than one governed/effected by the person's own Invested spirit-web (as is the case with all other spiritual Healing that I can think of).  Renarin has gotten a lot of experience with Regrowth, and he had no preconceptions going into it. So for him to look at the evidence and conclude that he his power correlates to a Time Limit rather than a more personalized and otherwise random Self-Acceptance limitation seems highly unlikely to me.  It would represent a big enough Watsonian logic mistake that if Renarin didnt notice the problem, Jasnah would.  

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17 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

But I dont think so, only because I think it more likely that Progression simply has different rules because it's an External Healing rather than one governed/effected by the person's own Invested spirit-web (as is the case with all other spiritual Healing that I can think of).

It follows the same rules.  All cosmere healing does.

 

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2 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

It follows the same rules.  All cosmere healing does.

 

So you assume, which is not proof.  Nearly all Cosmere healing we've seen so far follows very similar rules.  But then, for the reasons I mentioned, the progression surge is already qualitatively different because the healing is being done to others.

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