Aon Tia Posted December 7, 2019 Report Share Posted December 7, 2019 (edited) I just want to say that I think that out of all, Winzik is the biggest fraud! He prattles on and on about how his species has attained primary intelligence and are, therefore, not aggressive or destructive and therefore alone deserve the FTL technology. Well, clearly all his actions, from trying to eliminate the “human scrounge” permanently to creating a force of lesser species to the first test using live fire to summoning the delvers and planning to use them as a proverbial gun on every species heads to then using it to destroy humans to the military coup!! All these actions are very aggressive and the products of an extremely rash, destructive and dangerous mind! All the things that “primary intelligence levels” reached by your species should have made impossible for you to be! Therefore, winzik, you are a big fraud and the whole primary intelligence system of yours is fraudulent. Any views guys, please share. Edited December 7, 2019 by The traveller 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eran of Arcadia Posted December 8, 2019 Report Share Posted December 8, 2019 "Supposedly enlightened race is full of self-righteous, arrogant hypocrites" is a common science fiction/fantasy trope. I hope he gets humiliated before he dies. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 8, 2019 Report Share Posted December 8, 2019 The scary thing is I don't think he is actually aggressive. Quote ag·gres·sive /əˈɡresiv/ Learn to pronounce adjective adjective: aggressive ready or likely to attack or confront; characterized by or resulting from aggression. "he's very uncooperative and aggressive" Similar: hostile, belligerent, bellicose, antagonistic, truculent If actually caught in a crisis or life or death situation of any kind a human(aggressive species) would react fast. The adrenaline starts pumping you tense up your body gets ready to punch the thing before you have even realized what is going on. If the same thing happened to Winzik I do not think the same thing would happen. If Spensa punched him he would not be able to react in time. Instead he would simply stay their trying to figure out what is happening. He is only realy dangerous if you give him the time to analyze and look for leverage. From what we know of him he spent a lot of time imprisoning humans on Spensa's homeworld. What I think happened is that he understood that human aggression made them superior fighters to his more passive approach. They could use lightlances without even thinking about it while when he tried he was always too slow. He could not override his anti aggression conditioning so he did something even worse. He override his empathy. Aggression is only really aggression against other beings but as far as Winzik is concerned humans aren't even sapient and neither really is anyone else. To him they are just tools. On the up side if it comes to a fistfight it will not even be close. Spensa will break him before he can figure out what is going on. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted December 9, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2019 Aggression should not be seen as merely the capacity or ability to throw punches at someone! By your own definition, he is ready to attack, he attacked without giving warning, without even knowing if he could control the weapon or not! Delvers are certainly much more powerful than our nuclear weapons! He has committed an act of single handedly starting a nuclear war in the galaxy : AGGRESSIVE!!!! And very RASH behaviour! without even taking any approvals for that ! if he is so convinced that he is so right, then why not take approval! Why try to blame it on humans! I think what he is doing is aggressive! It can not be considered passive at all. He is being very ambitious also, all in the name of “greater good” of course! Very convenient! I think his proximity to humans and especially brade has caused him to learn their aggressive ways instead of brade learning his passive ways. He has a deep hatred of humanity and is willing to do anything to satisfy it! He conducted a coup! I am sure any civilisation under every law morals or ethics in any time place or planet would consider a military coup to be a very aggressive action. He thinks only he knows best! No one else in the 6 species having attained primary intelligence would know better way to deal with humans! Very aggressive again! He had planned to cause a planet wide extinction of humans before giving peace a seconds thought, that is very aggressive. 4 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said: Aggression is only really aggression against other beings but as far as Winzik is concerned humans aren't even sapient and neither really is anyone else. Very convenient but very non convincing argument! Humans are not sapient to him!? Still, a human is his main ally and only hope of a. Summoning a delver and b. Controlling a delver! So, either they are capable sapient beings or they are not! You can not pick and chose among humans that my human is ok but all these rest are toast. Because I decided it so! For all we know, he has been developing this crazy really rash idea for a long time with a bifocal agenda of - annihilation of humans and aggrandisement of power to self and self own! Hello! Shards of odium and ambition!! Have you by chance left Cosmere and found your way to Winzik!! the very reason he ever adopted brade is so that he could do this! Honestly, I would love him to be exposed and his entire alien race to be put on probation to prove that they have even achieved primary intelligence or not! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 9, 2019 Report Share Posted December 9, 2019 15 minutes ago, The traveller said: Aggression should not be seen as merely the capacity or ability to throw punches at someone! By your own definition, he is ready to attack, he attacked without giving warning, without even knowing if he could control the weapon or not! Delvers are certainly much more powerful than our nuclear weapons! He has committed an act of single handedly starting a nuclear war in the galaxy : AGGRESSIVE!!!! And very RASH behaviour! The thing is he is not ready to attack. None of his actions are emotional they are all premeditated. I would argue this makes them worse. Spensa is highly aggressive but this is not necessarily a bad thing. It means that she is dangerous but at the same time in a crisis she is the first one with a game plan. 17 minutes ago, The traveller said: I think what he is doing is aggressive! It can not be considered passive at all. It is kind of. He is not personally involved. The actual summoning of the delver is left to other agents. He is looking on and watching from a distance and coming up with a plan. 18 minutes ago, The traveller said: He is being very ambitious also, all in the name of “greater good” of course! Very convenient Ambition is not the same as aggression and yes he is ambitious. 19 minutes ago, The traveller said: He has a deep hatred of humanity and is willing to do anything to satisfy it! I kind of doubt this. Brade for example seems convinced that she could convince him to let the humans act as enforcers. 20 minutes ago, The traveller said: He conducted a coup! I am sure any civilisation under every law morals or ethics in any time place or planet would consider a military coup to be a very aggressive action. He must have been planing a coup for decades. This is destructive but at the same time not aggressive. 21 minutes ago, The traveller said: Very convenient but very non convincing argument! Humans are not sapient to him!? Still, a human is his main ally and only hope of a. Summoning a delver and b. Controlling a delver! So? I don't see my bus as sapient but it is still my only way to get to school on time. 22 minutes ago, The traveller said: So, either they are capable sapient beings or they are not! You can not pick and chose among humans that my human is ok but all these rest are toast. Because I decided it so! You absolutely can. Humans have been doing it for centuries. 23 minutes ago, The traveller said: Honestly, I would love him to be exposed and his entire alien race to be put on probation to prove that they have even achieved primary intelligence or not! This would be funny. I propose abolishing this BS system of deciding who is fully sapient and who is not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted December 9, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) There are more than one way a person can be aggressive. The only determining factor is not if a person is showing the emotional state or not. He is obviously very good at pretending! He can control his physical actions and facial expressions, he smiles, he talks sweetly but that alone does not mean he is not aggressive. His overall actions suggest otherwise. I agree this system is broken and I think we are heading towards aliens realising that! Mourimour and his story itself proves that hoping to create same individuals with same traits is less successful. We should welcome differences between people, we should allow difference of opinion! There is no prescribed solution to every problem. Edited December 9, 2019 by The traveller 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 23 hours ago, The traveller said: There are more than one way a person can be aggressive Or at least more then one definition of the word aggressive. However looking at Spensa's chapters she is most often derided as aggressive when she shows the immediate desire or capacity for personal violence or confrontational behavior. Therefore Winzik's actions are not what most of the aliens would call aggressive. Also in defending Elysium we find out about what all alien cultures do to their dissidence. By your definition this would be an aggressive action however they clearly do not consider it so. 23 hours ago, The traveller said: He is obviously very good at pretending! I don't think that he is really pretending so much as exaggerating or overcompensating. All of those mannerisms are clearly quite normal in Krell society he just seems to overcompensate because he does not feel the emotions behind them. 23 hours ago, The traveller said: His overall actions suggest otherwise Vapor pointed out that many individuals in the aggression hating Superiority would consider his actions laudable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted December 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said: Therefore Winzik's actions are not what most of the aliens would call aggressive. Also in defending Elysium we find out about what all alien cultures do to their dissidence. By your definition this would be an aggressive action however they clearly do not consider it so. Exactly I agree. And hence I think that their entire system is broken! Their way of looking at what can be considered aggressive is broken. The superiority is focusing on outwardly expressions of speech and display of emotions as the sole criterion for what is aggressive and what is not! But it is a very narrow way of looking at it! A person can be capable of controlling his facial expressions and speech with practice or due to social conditioning but there actions and their motivations could still be very aggressive! That is where Winzik falls for me and I am saying that he is as aggressive, rash and destructive in his actions as they blame humans to be! So, not only Winzik but the whole superiority as far as their whole belief system of aggression is bad or it goes away once primary intelligence is attained is a fraud! Edited December 10, 2019 by The traveller 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 28 minutes ago, The traveller said: Exactly I agree. And hence I think that their entire system is broken! Their way of looking at what can be considered aggressive is broken. 29 minutes ago, The traveller said: So, not only Winzik but the whole superiority as far as their whole belief system of aggression is bad or it goes away once primary intelligence is attained is a fraud! Not really. They just lack empathy. That is an entirely different and much worse problem. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted December 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2019 On 12/10/2019 at 8:52 AM, Ookla the Prolific said: Not really. They just lack empathy. That is an entirely different and much worse problem. I disagree. It is not a case of lack of empathy at all. They have a narrow convenient view of what it is called to be aggression. Moreover, the whole arc of mourimour is about how we should respect the differences in people and accept them for who they are! How can we decide who deserves to live or not? The very reason in defending Elysium why Jason went against the superiority is that he realised that it is not that these alien races have no dissent. It is just that they have very successfully curved the dissent. That is hardly the same thing! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 12, 2019 Report Share Posted December 12, 2019 3 hours ago, The traveller said: I disagree. It is not a case of lack of empathy at all. They have a narrow convenient view of what it is called to be aggression. Moreover, the whole arc of mourimour is about how we should respect the differences in people and accept them for who they are! How can we decide who deserves to live or not? So it is about how we should show empathy for people? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted December 14, 2019 Report Share Posted December 14, 2019 (edited) i find the superiority to be much alike our modern society, in that we have a rule of law that would be horrified with harming one single person, but we can conveniently ignore - or get stuck in a burocratic quagmire - when thousands are dieing, as long as we're not directly doing it. it's the evil of utopia, where you are trying so hard to get a perfect world that you find ways to ignore everything that doesn't fit with the image. winzik fits well into that, as he's not getting his hands dirty personally. he's not raising his voice or losing his temper. he's not even ordering people to death directly. he's just issuing orders that will cause a lot of people to die by the way, i don't understand his live fire exercice. that seemed just unneeded.perhaps it was indeed a genuine blunder on his part? Edited December 14, 2019 by king of nowhere 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 16, 2019 Report Share Posted December 16, 2019 On 12/14/2019 at 4:14 PM, king of nowhere said: winzik fits well into that, as he's not getting his hands dirty personally. he's not raising his voice or losing his temper. he's not even ordering people to death directly. he's just issuing orders that will cause a lot of people to die Exactly! Thank you! On 12/14/2019 at 4:14 PM, king of nowhere said: by the way, i don't understand his live fire exercice. that seemed just unneeded.perhaps it was indeed a genuine blunder on his part? I am pretty sure that he was trying to prove something perhaps the superiority(no pun!) of his chosen people over his political opponents and the deaths were a result of the fact that he has no actual military experience. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted December 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) On 12/15/2019 at 2:44 AM, king of nowhere said: winzik fits well into that, as he's not getting his hands dirty personally. he's not raising his voice or losing his temper. he's not even ordering people to death directly. he's just issuing orders that will cause a lot of people to die @Ookla the Prolific and again I will reiterate at the cost of repetition, that this is not acceptable! Just because you are personally not getting your hands dirty, does not mean that Winzik is not aggressive or rash or destructive or everything that his primary intelligence should have made existing impossible!! Therefore, if this is considered passive well then Winzik and superiority is a fraud! They are looking at aggression in a very narrow way which is convenient for them to blame “lesser” species and maintain the guise of being something better something higher! Which they are not!! Edited December 17, 2019 by The traveller 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, The traveller said: and again I will reiterate at the cost of repetition, that this is not acceptable! Just because you are personally not getting your hands dirty, does not mean that Winzik is not aggressive or rash or destructive or everything that his primary intelligence should have made existing impossible!! Therefore, if this is considered passive well then Winzik and superiority is a fraud! They are looking at aggression in a very narrow way which is convenient for them to blame “lesser” species and maintain the guise of being something better something higher! Which they are not!! I find it odd that both you and the superiority agree that the only morally objectionable actions in the universe come about as a result of aggression and or destructive action. Plenty of bad things can happen through neglect, ignorance, or lack of empathy. An individual who is unable to control their aggression must be removed from society for the safety of everyone involved. An individual who attempts to exploit and manipulate people by appealing to their ignorance and lack of empathy(as Winzik is doing) well. Hanging is too good for them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted December 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 14 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said: I find it odd that both you and the superiority agree that the only morally objectionable actions in the universe come about as a result of aggression and or destructive action. Plenty of bad things can happen through neglect, ignorance, or lack of empathy. An individual who is unable to control their aggression must be removed from society for the safety of everyone involved. An individual who attempts to exploit and manipulate people by appealing to their ignorance and lack of empathy(as Winzik is doing) well. Hanging is too good for them. I thought we were only very specifically discussing the actions of Winzik! We are not writing here a thesis on what are all the different types of morally and ethically objectionable things in the universe! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, The traveller said: @Ookla the Prolific and again I will reiterate at the cost of repetition, that this is not acceptable! Just because you are personally not getting your hands dirty, does not mean that Winzik is not aggressive or rash or destructive or everything that his primary intelligence should have made existing impossible!! Therefore, if this is considered passive well then Winzik and superiority is a fraud! They are looking at aggression in a very narrow way which is convenient for them to blame “lesser” species and maintain the guise of being something better something higher! Which they are not!! well, of course. that's pretty much the point. however, by not getting his hands dirty, he can fake a moral high ground and use it for his purposes. Edited December 17, 2019 by king of nowhere 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted December 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 11 minutes ago, king of nowhere said: however, by not getting his hands dirty, he can fake a moral high ground and use it for his purposes. and hence, he is a fraud. Thank you for summing it up for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 9 hours ago, The traveller said: I thought we were only very specifically discussing the actions of Winzik! We are not writing here a thesis on what are all the different types of morally and ethically objectionable things in the universe! My point is that strictly speaking Winzik does not violate any of the ideals of the superiority. His actions are still a shooting offense hence I conclude that it is the superiority that is a failure not Winzik's capability to follow the ideals it lays out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted December 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said: My point is that strictly speaking Winzik does not violate any of the ideals of the superiority I think trying to summon the delvers and to use them to destroy detritus was against the laws and ideals of superiority. That is why he tried to blame the summoning of delver on the humans! And using live fire in that test was also against the ideals of superiority. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 40 minutes ago, The traveller said: I think trying to summon the delvers and to use them to destroy detritus was against the laws and ideals of superiority. Laws probably. Ideals? They don't seem to have much of a problem killing humans provided they don't exterminate them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 actually, intentionally summoning a delver is a crime so bizzarre, i doubt anyone had actually made a specific law about it anyway, the problem with the superiority ideals is that they are trying to enforce a utopia that cannot exhist. the problem is that there are always evil people hurting other people. to stop them completely, you can either brainwash the whole population, or have a super-restrictive police state. both have obvious drawbacks. hence what i called the evil of utopia: trying too hard to remove suffering only ends up in one of those scenarios. if you focus too strongly on education to prevent evil people, you overstep into brainwashing. if you focus too much on repression, you get a police state. if you focus too much on guaranteeing freedom, you get a lax state where crime runs amook and is unpunished. the superiority clealrly overstepped into the first scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 (edited) On 12/17/2019 at 5:29 PM, king of nowhere said: actually, intentionally summoning a delver is a crime so bizzarre, i doubt anyone had actually made a specific law about it Reckless endangerment. On 12/17/2019 at 5:29 PM, king of nowhere said: anyway, the problem with the superiority ideals is that they are trying to enforce a utopia that cannot exhist. the problem is that there are always evil people hurting other people. to stop them completely, you can either brainwash the whole population, or have a super-restrictive police state. both have obvious drawbacks. hence what i called the evil of utopia: trying too hard to remove suffering only ends up in one of those scenarios. if you focus too strongly on education to prevent evil people, you overstep into brainwashing. if you focus too much on repression, you get a police state. if you focus too much on guaranteeing freedom, you get a lax state where crime runs amook and is unpunished. the superiority clealrly overstepped into the first scenario. Their utopia does exist. They have a large multispecies political structure in which aggression is considered evil. That is their idea of utopia I just don't think much of it. Edited December 18, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angsos Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 If one is sufficiently fanatical, they can justify anything. They also tried locking up dissidents which ended up hijacking humans and probably causing the wars. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted December 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2019 9 hours ago, Angsos said: If one is sufficiently fanatical, they can justify anything. They also tried locking up dissidents which ended up hijacking humans and probably causing the wars. Exactly. So there Utopia sounds a lot like a certain communist regime! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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