Ba-Ado-Mishram, the Autonomous

[Gilphon]

So here's an idea that's bubbled to the surface of my brain over the past few days because of reading new WoBs and listening to old Shardcast episodes:

Odium’s Accomplice 

So, I can’t help but feel like the more we’ve learned, the harder it is to imagine Odium beating Honor without help. Like, back when they were the only Shards we never about on Roshar, sure, but with Cultivation helping him? Harder to imagine. And, indeed, it doesn’t seem like he was able take them both. It seems like trying got Odium trapped on Braize and then stuck in a stalemate for 8000 years. 

So the question becomes ‘what changed? What happened around the time of the False Desolation and Recreance that let Odium break the stalemate?’ 

Now, I’m not going to go too far afield for the answer. I’m going with a fairly common one. I think he had help from another Shard. He does, after all, say “We killed you!” when Dalinar ascends. Really it makes the most sense to assume somebody else helped him kill Honor. And nor am I going to go crazy with my assumptions about which Shard it was. It was mostly likely the one with a known tendency to meddle on other planets. The one that Hoid says he has a vendetta against on the same level as Rayse. Autonomy. 

But, of course, Autonomy’s MO isn’t to just wander over, or to help from a distance. If Autonomy had wanted to interfere with events on Roshar, they would’ve created an Avatar there. And that’s where we get problems. Surely if Odium had an ally like that waiting in the wings, we would’ve heard about it by now. Even if that Avatar is no longer a factor in the present day for whatever reason, they’d be some record an enormous new threat appearing out of nowhere. Either in folklore or in the Gemstone archive.

And that’s when I thought ‘wait a minute, there totally is an entity that fits that bill!’

Ba-Ado-Mishram the Ascendant

The False Desolation is a strange event. Look at the Gemstone Archive’s account of what caused it:

Quote

"Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her."

BAM somehow Connected to the Parsh and starting supplying them with Voidlight? Remember, the Last Desolation was 2000 years ago at this point. So BAM spend 2000 years going ‘sure would be great if I could get some forms of power going. Oh well,’ and then just suddenly a Light bulb flash? That seems unlikely. No, it feels more likely to me that the Unmade had just now gained the power to do that. And surely it can’t be coincidence that she gained that power around the same time Honor started dying. 

And, since you no doubt see where I’m going with this by now, it’s worth mentioning that Avatars don’t have to created from scratch, but can be the result of heaping Investiture on a pre-existing being:

Quote

Pod

The combination of a Shard and its Vessel leads to sapient mind with access to a virtually infinite pool of Investiture. Are avatars the product of a similar combination of a mind and a pool of Investiture, only on a smaller scale, with less power?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that is an accurate representation of what an avatar is. It’s not the only way, but it is an accurate... some avatars are that. I would say that’s the standard.

And now, to explicitly spell out my conclusion: Autonomy turned Ba-Ado-Mishram into an Avatar, and used that to help Odium kill Honor.

Supporting Evidence and Addressing Known Problems

• It’s always struck me as strange the Singers were so reliant on Ba-Ado-Mishram that sealing her lobotomized them all. This surely can’t have always been the case- if it was, the Listeners would’ve been affected as well. Indeed, it doesn’t seem to have been the case until the False Desolation. But for her to involve herself to completely and so quickly with the fate of an entire species strikes me as a lot of power, even for an Unmade. But for an Avatar? That seems more plausible. 
• If BAM was indeed an Avatar, trapping her seems like it’s asking a lot, even for a perfect gem. But it seems like the perfect gems are indeed perfect- Honor’s drop didn’t lose any Stormlight at all over centuries. If so, it shouldn’t matter how powerful the being trapped inside is.
• There is a WoB out there that says that there are only the three Shards on Roshar. As far as I’m aware, that’s the only WoB that runs the risk of shooting this entire theory through the heart. I’m inclined to argue that the difference between a Shard and an Avatar is big enough that the theory can slip by that bullet
• I’m not sure if I’m strengthening my case or weakening it by saying this, but: Surely it’s reasonable to describe the post-BAM singers as being totally deprived of autonomy. So it’s fitting if it was caused by them losing Autonomy. 

So, what do you guys think? Am I on to something, or have I gone insane?

[Honorless]

I have to say I love this idea. I never did have any idea regarding how Autonomy could've helped Odium against Honor. This fits nicely with Autonomy's Intent seeing humans as the oppressive force and the resulting Slaveform as well. It could also be a great introduction to Autonomy and her Avatars.

[bnel21]

I like this theory a lot.  I don't think Brandon would count an avatar being present as there being a Shard on the planet so that WOB doesn't poke any holes at this point.  Nice work.  

[Karger]

Hm.  Interesting theory but how would autonomy provide either connection or voidlight?  Voidlight is specific to Odium and connection is something autonomy is generally against no?

[Honorless]

We don't know whether it was in fact Voidlight, after all it could just as easily have been Autonomy's Investiture fuelling the Forms of Power.

[Gilphon]

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to treat Connection in general as something Autonomy is against- it's a pretty fundamental property of the Spiritual realm. And is, y'know, the principle behind the Aviar, which is a magic system we know is more about Autonomy than it is any other Shard. And surely every Avatar is Connected to Autonomy as a whole, right? I think it's fine by them as long as you're not using it for mind control or oppression or anything else that's obviously contrary to their intent.

As for Voidlight... well, for one, I'm not 100% convinced that Voidlight is Odium specific. We haven't gotten what I would consider a clear explanation for what it is- it might be a general form of corrupted Stormlight. But even leading that aside, even after becoming an Avatar, Ba-Ado-Mishram would still be an Unmade and would therefore still be heavily linked to Odium. So even if what she was giving the Singers wasn't exactly the same as Voidlight, it would've had similarities. Surely it would've been close enough that Radiants who only knew Voidlight from 2000 year old historical documents wouldn't have been able to tell the difference, right?

[KandraAllomancer]

2 hours ago, bnel21 said:

I like this theory a lot.  I don't think Brandon would count an avatar being present as there being a Shard on the planet so that WOB doesn't poke any holes at this point.  Nice work.  

Patji counts as a Shard with an asterisk, so I wouldn't be so sure.

I don't think Autonomy would provide something similar to Voidlight. Stormlight and Cultivationlight are quite distinctive and I don't see any reason why Autonomylight would be different.

Also, the Unmade were specifically confirmed to be of Odium:

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WeiryWriter

Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Good guess.

/r/books AMA 2015 (March 12, 2015)

There is definitely something weird about Ba-Ado-Mishram though. Maybe Ba-Ado-Mishram is simply an Odium Avatar? It could explain why she and the rest of the Unmade weren't imprisoned on Braize

Edited December 6, 2019 by KandraAllomancer

[Gilphon]

You're misunderstanding what I'm suggesting, I think. I'm not suggesting that Autonomy created Ba-Ado-Mishram, but that they co-opted Ba-Ado-Mishram by heaping a bunch of investiture on top of her. Which would be why she suddenly manifested new powers. So I'm not saying anything that would contradict the idea of the Unmade being of Odium.

And, if we make the assumption that Voidlight is in indeed Odium-specific, I don't see any reason to assume that Light from a creature with a bunch of Odium investiture and a bunch of Autonomy investiture would be so dramatically different from Voidlight that people who had no first hand knowledge with Voidlight couldn't possibly confuse the two. Like I could imagine that if any of the Fused had been around at the time, they would've noticed some differences, but nobody else would necessarily know.

Indeed, I don't even think we'd be looking at any new Forms; just the Investiture fuelling the forms acting in different ways. Like how Voidlight and Stormlight can fuel the same set of Surges. 

[KandraAllomancer]

On 7.12.2019 at 2:50 AM, Gilphon said:

You're misunderstanding what I'm suggesting, I think. I'm not suggesting that Autonomy created Ba-Ado-Mishram, but that they co-opted Ba-Ado-Mishram by heaping a bunch of investiture on top of her.

I'm fairly sure that how BAM was created (well, unmade) in the first place. She used to be something else, but then she became a Splinter of Odium. By the same logic, she should be considered a Splinter of Autonomy after the transformation you describe. This also doesn't sound like Autonomy to me because:

A. Rayse would probably see this as a hostile action (he works with others, but only when he's in charge) and they seem to have been allies so far

B. Autonomy used to create Avatars instead of corrupting Investiture in the past, and I don't see why she would change her modus operandi out of the sudden

Something was definitely happening to Ba-Ado-Mishram (and Sja-anat as well), but I think it was something more subtle (like spiritweb modification rather than full-on co-opting Investiture) and aimed at hurting Odium (even if it didn't work out with BAM). Also, I can see two culprits more likely than Autonomy on Roshar: Cultivation and whoever/whatever Unity is

Edited December 9, 2019 by KandraAllomancer

[Gilphon]

That's the point of the WoB I quoted; the standard way Avatars are created is by altering something that already exists. What I'm suggesting is Autonomy's usual MO. Like how the Avatars we've seen elsewhere were well-known figures in locals religion before they became Avatars. 

And Ba-Ado-Mishram is definitely subordinate to Odium- and since Avatars have their own will and mind, Autonomy wouldn't have changed that, so I'd say it's well within the 'when he's in charge' clause of what you said. It's Autonomy saying 'hey, let me work my magic with your minion there a bit- I don't worry, she'll still answer to you- and help you finally beat Honor'. (Or, well, I actually have a theory that says there should be a bunch of unused Autonomy investiture on every planet that doesn't already have an Avatar, so it might even have more along the lines of Ba-Ado-Mishram saying 'hey boss, I found a great new power source!', but I don't really want to get super into that because its a mostly separate theory.)

And, well, you're gonna have justify how empowering Ba-Ado-Mishram and starting a Desolation could've been meant to hurt Odium. Like certainly it backfired horribly if that was the idea, given that that's the generation that saw Honor get killed. 

[KandraAllomancer]

18 hours ago, Gilphon said:

Or, well, I actually have a theory that says there should be a bunch of unused Autonomy investiture on every planet that doesn't already have an Avatar, so it might even have more along the lines of Ba-Ado-Mishram saying 'hey boss, I found a great new power source!', but I don't really want to get super into that because its a mostly separate theory.

I think that's exactly how Avatars work - Shard might have access to infinite power, but their minds are finite and there must be a lot of unused Investiture lying around:

Quote

Questioner

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

Avatars seem to be a way to bypass that limitation

18 hours ago, Gilphon said:

That's the point of the WoB I quoted; the standard way Avatars are created is by altering something that already exists.

By the logic above, that something would be Autonomy's free Investiture

18 hours ago, Gilphon said:

And, well, you're gonna have justify how empowering Ba-Ado-Mishram and starting a Desolation could've been meant to hurt Odium.

That would be hard to prove, but I think the alternative (that it was meant to help Odium), is not very likely - simply because Rayse would probably consider it a hostile action. Based on his conversation with Turash on Thaylen Field, he seems to want to be in complete charge of the situation and be able to control his minions. On a more personal note, I don't think I would trust Bavadin in this situation and I don't think Rayse would be less paranoid than me

18 hours ago, Gilphon said:

And Ba-Ado-Mishram is definitely subordinate to Odium- and since Avatars have their own will and mind, Autonomy wouldn't have changed that, so I'd say it's well within the 'when he's in charge' clause of what you said.

Creating an Avatar subordinate to someone else seems to be very much against Autonomy's Intent

[Gilphon]

 

37 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I think that's exactly how Avatars work - Shard might have access to infinite power, but their minds are finite and there must be a lot of unused Investiture lying around

Well, I mean, yes, there is the ambient Investiture, but- And now you've made me get into the whole other theory I referred to above- I actually think that Autonomy is spread their Investiture everywhere in a way that the other Shards aren't. Specifically, since we know that Bavadin is invested in a star and spreading the Investiture through the starlight, and something with the right know-how could use Autonomy's Investiture from anywhere you can see the star, there should be a extra Autonomy Investiture collecting everywhere that isn't being used for anything. A very small amount at a time, but if it stays unused for thousands of years, that trickle of power is going to add up something formidable. 

Making an Avatar at that point wouldn't even necessarily take conscious effort- or even a conscious decision- on Bavarian's part, which fits because We know it's possible for an Avatar to be formed without a conscious decision. All it would take would be something discovering and choosing to claim all that power. Or that not happening for long enough that the Investiture develops a mind on its own, but I think the former case is what happened on Roshar.

35 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

That would be hard to prove, but I think the alternative (that it was meant to help Odium), is not very likely - simply because Rayse would probably consider it a hostile action. Based on his conversation with Turash on Thaylen Field, he seems to want to be in complete charge of the situation and be able to control his minions. On a more personal note, I don't think I would trust Bavadin in this situation and I don't think Rayse would be less paranoid than me

Additionally, we know that Odium's working with somebody here; his shocked cry when Dalinar ascends is 'We killed you!', after all. That didn't strike me as a 'me and my minions' kind of 'we', y'know? More like a 'me and my allies' kind of 'we'. I know that's a bit vague, but I hope you're following me on it. So, like, if he has an ally helping him on Roshar, surely Autonomy is the most likely candidate, right? Hold apparently has a vendetta against both Bavadin and Rayse, so surely it follows that if Rayse is positively inclined towards any of them, it would be Bavadin. Especially because Autonomy's just been created a bunch of not-a-threat-to-Odium Mini-Shards rather than challenging his desired position as overall top dog.

38 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Creating an Avatar subordinate to someone else seems to be very much against Autonomy's Intent

There's grey area here. I'd argue that's more like Autonomy just didn't force Ba-Ado-Mishram to betray Odium; that they gave BAM the tools to free the Singers from oppression and otherwise didn't force their will onto her, which, for a splinter of Odium means sticking with Odium's overall agenda. (It should be possible to be a splinter of two different Shards, shouldn't it? No, yeah, it has to be, because surely it's possible for something to be a splinter of Harmony. So I suppose you say could that under my theory, BAM would be a splinter of whatever the Autonomy+Odium shard name would be. Rebellion? Defiance?)

Lastly, I want to take this moment to thank you for engaging me on this. You're helping me work out the kinks in the idea, and really the worst case scenario for a theory like this is if nobody cares enough to voice their disagreements.

[KandraAllomancer]

On 10.12.2019 at 7:16 PM, Gilphon said:

Lastly, I want to take this moment to thank you for engaging me on this. You're helping me work out the kinks in the idea, and really the worst case scenario for a theory like this is if nobody cares enough to voice their disagreements.

You're welcome I've enjoyed our discussion as well

The Book 4 Release Date topic reminded me about Feverstone Keep (somehow I completely forgot about it) - this might shed some light on BAM's motives and has good chance of coming up in Book 4 (I think), so we may get some answers relatively soon

On 10.12.2019 at 7:16 PM, Gilphon said:

Additionally, we know that Odium's working with somebody here; his shocked cry when Dalinar ascends is 'We killed you!', after all.

Autonomy is very likely to be part of the 'we' here, but I'm wondering who the 'you' is. Honor? Some Shard on Ashyn? Adonalsium? Probably the biggest RAFO on my personal list of things I'd like to know about Stormlight

[Gilphon]

I mean, the 'you' has got to refer to Unity, which I realize isn't much of an answer, but still.

I personally subscribe to the theory that Unity is just Dalinar's interpretation of the Shard Tanavast interpreted as Honor, but I realize that that's not an idea that everyone agrees with.

[Solant]

I like the theory. Could this somehow explain the Stormform red eyes (co-opted divestiture)?

[Gilphon]

I mean, theoretically it could, but I don't think we need this theory to explain that- The Stormspren were probably made by corrupting some other kind of spren, and Odium's probably perfectly capable of doing that without help from Autonomy. Even if he can't do it directly, surely he could send Sja-Anat to go do it for him.

[KandraAllomancer]

On 12.12.2019 at 11:22 PM, Gilphon said:

I personally subscribe to the theory that Unity is just Dalinar's interpretation of the Shard Tanavast interpreted as Honor, but I realize that that's not an idea that everyone agrees with.

I agree that Unity seems to be, at least partially, of Honor. There is still the issue of the voice talking to Dalinar - an Avatar of Honor maybe?

[Gilphon]

Quite possilby- It was suggested on Shardcast that Dalinar might be in the process of becoming an Avatar of Honor. If so, that voice would probably be the way he was feeling the Shard's Intent. Like, he doesn't seem to able to have a conversation with that voice or anything; it just passively tells him to 'Unite Them'. 

But that's still an incomplete explanation for Dalinar's weirdness- the weird Nohadon vision in OB strikes me as having Cultivation's fingerprints all over it, so she might be monkeying with his brain beyond just the amnesia. And then there's the vision of his childhood at the end of WoR, and the strange light he's felt a few times. I don't know, there's a lot weird about Dalinar, and I don't feel fully confident in my ability to properly untangle that knot.