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Shallan and Spensa (Skyward and Starsight SPOILERS)


Pathfinder

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So I am not sure where would be the best place to post this, so I am taking up a large chunk of the beginning of this post for empty space so no one in stormlight who has not read Skyward and Starsight would stumble across any spoilers. 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, now hopefully this works. 

 

As I am reading Starsight (have not finished but I am fairly deep into it), I keep getting struck by the similarities between Shallan and Spensa. Now I readily acknowledge and agree it could do with the fact they are both by the same author and are of similar age range, but I can't help but feel there might be more gleaned from this. They both have a smart aleck side kick that does not understand humans. They both can use illusions. But most importantly they are both sarcastic, with a similar sense of humor, and I believe personality. What separates them to me, is Shallan grew up with an abusive father in a dominant family (as in she is a lighteyes), while Spensa grew up with a loving and supportive family (father before he died, mother, and grandmother) in a non dominant family (outliers, poor, outcast). I cannot help but feel like had Shallan not had the abusive familial upbringing she had, she would have turned out very much like Spensa. I think this is very interesting because I think it can give us some insight into what kind of person Shallan may become one day if she learns to deal with her alters, as well as maybe even work out how she could get there. 

 

So TLDR, I think Shallan and Spensa are similar enough that we can learn a lot about Shallan in view of Spensa. Does anyone agree? Disagree? and why?

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Well, outside of the cosmere, characters don't need to be "broken" to get powers.

Shallan is very broken at the start of OB and I feel like that is the main difference between Shallan and Spensa. The thing is that Shallan is Shallan because of the struggles that she went through. Spensa is growing up on a planet that is broken, but her life is much more solid than Shallan's

. I really didn't see many similarities between them when I was reading Starsight, but I try and keep cosmere and non-cosmere separate from each other in my mind. Spensa is Spensa/ Spin/ owner (?) of m-bot while Shallan/ Veil/ Radiant..../ bonded to Pattern is very different

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25 minutes ago, GoWibble said:

Well, outside of the cosmere, characters don't need to be "broken" to get powers.

Shallan is very broken at the start of OB and I feel like that is the main difference between Shallan and Spensa. The thing is that Shallan is Shallan because of the struggles that she went through. Spensa is growing up on a planet that is broken, but her life is much more solid than Shallan's

. I really didn't see many similarities between them when I was reading Starsight, but I try and keep cosmere and non-cosmere separate from each other in my mind. Spensa is Spensa/ Spin/ owner (?) of m-bot while Shallan/ Veil/ Radiant..../ bonded to Pattern is very different

Hmmm, maybe if I provide some instances of what I believe is similarities:

 

1. Shallan with the book merchant in Thaylenah came across the same way to me as Spensa when first meeting the Krell Leader. Very similar in inflection, and word choice. Both got incensed at being condescended to, and both responded in a passive aggressive manner playing on their choice of words.

2. Shallan with Yalb, Spensa with Rig. Very similar in mannerisms and joking when at ease with a friend. 

3. Shallan with spren experimentation, Spensa with Cytonic experimentation. Both risked their physical well being to push themselves to research something they deemed important. Both reacted the same way when admonished regarding the attempt at such research.

4. Shallan with chasmfiend extinction ecology, Spensa with hyperdrive economics. Both grasp the wider implications of a seemingly isolated action. Shallan realizes there will be greater ramifications of the frequency of chasmfiend hunts. Spensa realizes the superiorities strangle hold on hyperdrives gives them a monopoly. 

 

Where they act different however, is Spensa tends to be upfront bluster, while when we first met Shallan, she was meek and tried to hide that side. We have a WoB that Shallan would have been more assertive had she not grown up with the father she had. So I was wondering if perhaps we have a sort of window via Spensa on how that might have been. And going on that, perhaps draw lines back to Shallan on how she could potentially reach that. 

 

Brandon Sanderson

Shallan berates the book merchant

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two's flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.”

Shallan's father has an infamous temper; it's buried deep within her as well. If she'd been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin. It is also part of why both attract a certain type of spren…

The Way of Kings Annotations (Nov. 24, 2017) Edited by Pathfinder
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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I cannot help but feel like had Shallan not had the abusive familial upbringing she had, she would have turned out very much like Spensa

Spensa actually reminds me more of Veil.  I also agree that Veil is closer to who Shallan would have been if she had left her home early and fallen in with a rougher crowd. 

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I think its difficult to say that there aren't similarities between the two, but personally having just finished starsight about an hour ago I didnt get any " she's like shallan!" moments, I think its difficult more because of how I view shallan, due to the stress she gets put under at various stages she forms different identities suited to those environments so she has quite a few bases covered, as a result there would be overlap with a character like spensa. But at their cores I'd say they are different due to what they have to develop, in skyward spensa was quite a rough character due to the constant discrimination and now in starsight we start to see her struggle with the "warrior" mentality and shift towards a softer type of thinking, whereas in shallans case due to upbringing etc she was initially more of the soft category forced to the "dirty work" and her struggle in accepting this rougher side of her lead to developments like veil.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I see the similarities you've highlighted but in my mind they're still very different characters because of the above?

If that makes sense? 

 

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1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Spensa actually reminds me more of Veil.  I also agree that Veil is closer to who Shallan would have been if she had left her home early and fallen in with a rougher crowd. 

I see what you are saying. 

1 hour ago, hustlegion said:

I think its difficult to say that there aren't similarities between the two, but personally having just finished starsight about an hour ago I didnt get any " she's like shallan!" moments, I think its difficult more because of how I view shallan, due to the stress she gets put under at various stages she forms different identities suited to those environments so she has quite a few bases covered, as a result there would be overlap with a character like spensa. But at their cores I'd say they are different due to what they have to develop, in skyward spensa was quite a rough character due to the constant discrimination and now in starsight we start to see her struggle with the "warrior" mentality and shift towards a softer type of thinking, whereas in shallans case due to upbringing etc she was initially more of the soft category forced to the "dirty work" and her struggle in accepting this rougher side of her lead to developments like veil.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I see the similarities you've highlighted but in my mind they're still very different characters because of the above?

If that makes sense? 

 

it makes sense, though personally I think it ironically supports what I am saying. If they were purely different, then them as individuals working on their own issues would still result in different people. But if I understand you correctly, you are more saying they are different because of their origin and the effect the origin had on them. Thing is, I believe they are both working on aspects of themselves, that is bringing them more towards each other. Hmm, how to illustrate this. So we agree in the beginning Spensa was more aggressive, while Shallan was more passive right? The similarities I pointed out you agree are there. As you said, Spensa is trying to pull back on the aggression, while Shallan is trying to be more assertive. So I guess I am saying if their personalities are similar except for the aggressive and passive natures (which was derived from different histories), and they are both reducing and increasing each respectively, then once accomplished, would the result not be very similar? A less aggressive Spensa next to a more assertive Shallan? So by using Spensa as a rule brick of what Shallan could have been had she been more assertive, and Shallan as a rule brick of what Spensa could have been more passive, then we could potentially reason how they would be when both are in moderation? And then have an idea of where Shallan needs to get to be ok? Basically finding a common factor. 

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Yup I realised that point as I was typing it haha but I wanted some discourse (I dont post here often) , I imagine it as both characters are driving on opposite sides of a road in opposite directions, they may see each other as they pass by with regards to becoming more passive or more aggressive. But for some reason I think just personal preference it doesnt strike a similarity chord in me. With regards to end result I think it wouldn't be very similar because of whats driving the present changes, the motivations behind them  as well as the different  POVs of the characters. Spensa and her POV of herself is so radically different to shallans view of herself in that how they interpret things wouldn't be the same/similar  and therefore a similar end result wouldn't occurr either. I think thats why I dont see them as similar characters even down to personality, they have gaps/areas to develop which contrast but their personailities  ( shallans at heart being more scholarly intrigued, intellectually witty whilst spensa more dive in head first, science later, jerkface insults) don't resonate either. I do however find the thought of them meeting immensely amusing, id say spensa would be seen as more similar to kaladin from shallans point of view ( although now i say that I realise kaladin and shallan had the whole "we're both broken" thing in common but I was thinking more meathead soldier view of kaladin).

Long story short from what I see of both so far they seem to interpret and process stimulus differently, the areas they have to develop align but their POV is too different for me to say I find them similar. 

Thank you though Im finding this really interesting!

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4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Hmmm, maybe if I provide some instances of what I believe is similarities:

 

1. Shallan with the book merchant in Thaylenah came across the same way to me as Spensa when first meeting the Krell Leader. Very similar in inflection, and word choice. Both got incensed at being condescended to, and both responded in a passive aggressive manner playing on their choice of words.

2. Shallan with Yalb, Spensa with Rig. Very similar in mannerisms and joking when at ease with a friend. 

3. Shallan with spren experimentation, Spensa with Cytonic experimentation. Both risked their physical well being to push themselves to research something they deemed important. Both reacted the same way when admonished regarding the attempt at such research.

4. Shallan with chasmfiend extinction ecology, Spensa with hyperdrive economics. Both grasp the wider implications of a seemingly isolated action. Shallan realizes there will be greater ramifications of the frequency of chasmfiend hunts. Spensa realizes the superiorities strangle hold on hyperdrives gives them a monopoly. 

 

Where they act different however, is Spensa tends to be upfront bluster, while when we first met Shallan, she was meek and tried to hide that side. We have a WoB that Shallan would have been more assertive had she not grown up with the father she had. So I was wondering if perhaps we have a sort of window via Spensa on how that might have been. And going on that, perhaps draw lines back to Shallan on how she could potentially reach that. 

 

Brandon Sanderson

Shallan berates the book merchant

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two's flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.”

Shallan's father has an infamous temper; it's buried deep within her as well. If she'd been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin. It is also part of why both attract a certain type of spren…

The Way of Kings Annotations (Nov. 24, 2017)

Personally, I think the similarities you are seeing are probably more due to Sanderson's style as an author.  He has certain character archetypes that he likes to re-use and certain ways he likes to write certain kinds of scenes.  For example, in point 2 you talk about how they have similar mannerisms, but I think that is more likely to be caused by the fact that Sanderson writes scenes of people at ease with their friends in the same general way across his different books.  

What I think are different about the two is that Spensa is very much a girl who loves being physical, doing things with her hands, hunting, climbing, fighting, etc.  She is aggressive and goes directly after what she wants without subtlety.  She knows exactly who she is and has no reservations about that and doesn't pretend to be someone else (outside of spy missions).  Shallan is different.  She is not a physical person, she prefers intellectual exercises like research and art.  Shallan is naturally shy and doesn't want to go after her goals directly.  She can overcome her shyness and do what needs to be done, but she's not naturally ambitious and aggressive like Spensa.  Shallan is also the type of person who feels she needs to put on a face for other people, to the point that she literally split herself into three people because she wanted to be what she thought other people expected of her.  You can argue that the influence of society, life experiences, etc have caused them to diverge more than they would have otherwise, but I don't know if that's a meaningful argument.  People are who they are based on their life experiences, you can't take that away and try to create some kind of "base" personality.  Or, if you can we haven't figured out how yet in science or philosophy.

From my perspective, I like both characters, but I don't think you can draw anything from Spensa to see a future Shallan.  They are too different.  They have each been shaped by their own life experiences.  Let's not forget, Spensa's father died when she was young and her whole family was disgraced and pushed down to the lowest rungs of society by what he did in his final hours.  She's experienced her own trauma, though it was very different from Shallan's.  So it's not like Spensa is a Shallan without trauma.  Shallan will always be a little more shy and hesistant, she won't be as ambitious and aggressive as Spensa.  She will always love scholarly pursuits and art, while Spensa will never love those things.  Spensa loves to fight in deadly combat, Shallan doesn't.  They have some similarities, but also plenty of differences.

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On 12/5/2019 at 8:27 AM, Pathfinder said:

So I am not sure where would be the best place to post this, so I am taking up a large chunk of the beginning of this post for empty space so no one in stormlight who has not read Skyward and Starsight would stumble across any spoilers. 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, now hopefully this works. 

 

As I am reading Starsight (have not finished but I am fairly deep into it), I keep getting struck by the similarities between Shallan and Spensa. Now I readily acknowledge and agree it could do with the fact they are both by the same author and are of similar age range, but I can't help but feel there might be more gleaned from this. They both have a smart aleck side kick that does not understand humans. They both can use illusions. But most importantly they are both sarcastic, with a similar sense of humor, and I believe personality. What separates them to me, is Shallan grew up with an abusive father in a dominant family (as in she is a lighteyes), while Spensa grew up with a loving and supportive family (father before he died, mother, and grandmother) in a non dominant family (outliers, poor, outcast). I cannot help but feel like had Shallan not had the abusive familial upbringing she had, she would have turned out very much like Spensa. I think this is very interesting because I think it can give us some insight into what kind of person Shallan may become one day if she learns to deal with her alters, as well as maybe even work out how she could get there. 

 

So TLDR, I think Shallan and Spensa are similar enough that we can learn a lot about Shallan in view of Spensa. Does anyone agree? Disagree? and why?

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! 

I felt the EXACT SAME WAY reading Starsight I recognize both characters being vastly different in their personalities, interests, and bonding, but the plot of the book was so similar to Shallan's plots in WoK and WoR, I couldn't help but make the comparison. It honestly dampened my enjoyment of Starsight, but I still really enjoyed the book. 

On 12/5/2019 at 2:02 PM, hustlegion said:

Yup I realised that point as I was typing it haha but I wanted some discourse (I dont post here often) , I imagine it as both characters are driving on opposite sides of a road in opposite directions, they may see each other as they pass by with regards to becoming more passive or more aggressive. But for some reason I think just personal preference it doesnt strike a similarity chord in me. With regards to end result I think it wouldn't be very similar because of whats driving the present changes, the motivations behind them  as well as the different  POVs of the characters. Spensa and her POV of herself is so radically different to shallans view of herself in that how they interpret things wouldn't be the same/similar  and therefore a similar end result wouldn't occurr either. I think thats why I dont see them as similar characters even down to personality, they have gaps/areas to develop which contrast but their personailities  ( shallans at heart being more scholarly intrigued, intellectually witty whilst spensa more dive in head first, science later, jerkface insults) don't resonate either. I do however find the thought of them meeting immensely amusing, id say spensa would be seen as more similar to kaladin from shallans point of view ( although now i say that I realise kaladin and shallan had the whole "we're both broken" thing in common but I was thinking more meathead soldier view of kaladin).

Long story short from what I see of both so far they seem to interpret and process stimulus differently, the areas they have to develop align but their POV is too different for me to say I find them similar. 

Thank you though Im finding this really interesting!

Interesting view! I would probably see the two of them as facets in a gem if I was to make a comparison. They can (or rather should) see aspects of themselves in each other - enough to sympathize and understand how they go to where the other was - but also learn what maybe NOT to do from each other. Shallan might find Spensa's bravado confusing at first because as much as that bravado is an act, it's still a part of Spensa. Spensa on the other hand would find Shallan's ability to become other people both useful (in the immediate sense as well as for escapism), but ultimately a roadblock to what she wants. 

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I don't see the Shallan/Spensa similarities in personality as much as the OP. I see two young women new to a world and responding to outside stimuli in a similar manner albeit with wildly differing skillsets. 

The disconnect, at least for me lies in how they approach knowledge. This gets lost in the shuffle because of the DID thing, but Shallan is a pure scholar,  studying things for the sake of study, experimentation for its own sake.  She's had to try and learn new skills by necessity and apply her research to the war effort,  but left to her own devices she's probably be drawing something and cracking dirty jokes and bad puns. 

Spensa though?  She's an all action type of person.  She seems to abhor book learning and only learns enough to serve whatever purpose she has. She's much more task oriented, straightforward,  focused than Shallan. And if their origins were reversed (Shallan grows up with a loving family of outcasts, Spensa with an abusive father and brothers she felt responsible for) I don't for a second believe that they'd turn out the same.  

To each their own but I'm not seeing it really. Actually,  if we're talking similar characters, I think she matches much better to Lift than Shallan. 

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3 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Actually,  if we're talking similar characters, I think she matches much better to Lift than Shallan. 

Oh how do you see it? Because I can't at the moment and I'm far too curious. To me Lift is all instinct. She does what feels natural to her, and while Lift is very clever, she rarely uses it for gain.

Spensa is all training. She has talent, sure (and cytonic abilities really do help), but Skyward  drives home the fact that Spensa put her all into becoming a pilot. She worked hard to be the best, and was constantly challenging herself. I can't see Lift doing the same (yet). 

Lift runs from expectations and sees into the heart of people, whereas Spensa stands her ground to fight and is very bad at reading people (she's gotten better though). 

I see Lift more like Vin than I see Lift like Spensa. 

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2 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Oh how do you see it? Because I can't at the moment and I'm far too curious. To me Lift is all instinct. She does what feels natural to her, and while Lift is very clever, she rarely uses it for gain.

Spensa is all training. She has talent, sure (and cytonic abilities really do help), but Skyward  drives home the fact that Spensa put her all into becoming a pilot. She worked hard to be the best, and was constantly challenging herself. I can't see Lift doing the same (yet). 

Lift runs from expectations and sees into the heart of people, whereas Spensa stands her ground to fight and is very bad at reading people (she's gotten better though). 

I see Lift more like Vin than I see Lift like Spensa. 

Some of the superficial things that fit Shallan to Spensa also apply to Lift (quirky sidekick, strange sense of humor ect.). Because they're both action oriented.  They're both natural explorers as well. Self sufficiency also. Plus, Spensa is totally instinctive.  Lift hasn't been focused on training, but who is looking to train an orphan? The difference between Lift and Spensa lies in Legacy.  Spensa had an infamous father to measure herself against, an important job vital to her planet.  Lift had none of this. But given even a little bit of purpose and she'll grit her teeth and fight it out with as much of a warrior mentality as Spensa shows.  Healing Gawx, standing up to Nale, staying behind in TC when her coalition left the alliance. When the chips are down Lift stands up.

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1 minute ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Some of the superficial things that fit Shallan to Spensa also apply to Lift (quirky sidekick, strange sense of humor ect.). Because they're both action oriented.  They're both natural explorers as well. Self sufficiency also. Plus, Spensa is totally instinctive.  Lift hasn't been focused on training, but who is looking to train an orphan? The difference between Lift and Spensa lies in Legacy.  Spensa had an infamous father to measure herself against, an important job vital to her planet.  Lift had none of this. But given even a little bit of purpose and she'll grit her teeth and fight it out with as much of a warrior mentality as Spensa shows.  Healing Gawx, standing up to Nale, staying behind in TC when her coalition left the alliance. When the chips are down Lift stands up.

Interesting! They both have moxie and stand up for their belief's, you're right there. And great point about self-sufficiency. And your first point about how Shallan and Spensa are two completely different characters in similar situations is completely accurate.

But, I still disagree on the instinct thing. Or at least innate instinct. Spensa isn't naturally good at light-lancing - her light-spear(?) that she uses to hunt rats runs on the same principles, so it was easy to carry over. Spensa was a good pilot, but forged herself into a great - dare I say Ace - pilot. 

I doubt Lift's lack of focus on training is because nobody would train her (if she asked any of Gawx's people, or Dalinar, I'm sure they'd accept). She simply doesn't like fighting and her spren doesn't like hurting people. So Lift and Spensa might both be action or movement oriented, but Lift is NOT violence oriented like Spensa is. 

Wouldn't the point about Legacy link Spensa far more to Shallan than it would Lift? 

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My thought on the Legacy thing is the juxtaposition.  For instance,  say Lift was born into the family of a war hero. Her mom was a soldier in the Reshii army.  She would have been raised in a military background with all that entails.  Her talents would be put to use and she'd look much like the woman Spensa has become.  She likely wouldn't be as aggressive but otherwise they map pretty closely.  

Now do the reverse.  Put Spensa in a world where the only person who ever cared for her died when she was very young and she was forced to fend for herself as an orphan.  Her resourcefulness comes to the fore. We've already seen something of this in the early events of Skyward. She's much more intense than Lift is, likely more focused, but she still thrives in an urchin role using much of the same skillset as Lift. 

On the instinctive thing, I'm just guessing,  but maybe the ladies look different to you because their instincts are influenced by different circumstances.  What I mean is they have drastically different jobs.  Lift is a thief, at least until she gets that pesky Edgedancer role down. Spensa is, and was always destined to be a fighter pilot.  Their instincts in both cases work very well for them even though they apply those instincts differently.  Say instead they are both talented and their instinctive natures blend well with that talent.  Then again that's just my opinion,  YMMV. 

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