The Unmade and Roshar's technology

[Pathfinder]

Personally I think the answer is simple. Soulcasters, shardblades, and shardplate is what retarded the technological advancement of fabrials. Everyone was trying to find a way to recreate them. To figure out how the radiants of old made them. The problem is they were missing one very very big component. Radiant spren. There is no way they would be able to develop shardblades and plate like the radiants left, because they were working with an "unfinished" product. So everything and anything they tried would be unable to replicate it. Same thing with soulcasters. Everyone wants to make a soulcaster, but there was something only done on Aimia that allowed it to happen. They are treating the soulcasters, shardblades and shardplate as something they are not. It was only when they started to give up and pursue other paths, that spanreeds, alerting fabrials, and so on became a thing. They stopped trying to emulate, and they began to create. When Dalinar hears about the half shards being developed in Kharbranth, at first he is skeptical that it could do anything, and viewed it as a waste of time. Navani comments on how they had been looking at shardblades and plate the wrong way all this time. At least that is my thinking. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Pathfinder

[StanLemon]

There are many many reasons why Roshar would be slow to develop. The planet itself is far more harsh to the needs of development than say Scadrial or Earth,  some of which have been stated already. Additionally there is the sociological aspects, one of those has been Roshar's percieved dependence on magical solutions.

However I feel the most need to address the spren problem brought up. An analogous example would be electricity, we knew about electricity as something other than lightning for a long time before we started truly harnessing it. There are certain things that needed to be learned first. It's the same with fabrials. Certain gem and spren combinations have different effects, and you also have to figure out the proper way to stimulate the spren to do as you want which Navani's pictured note implies is more complicated than it seems. It was only once all these things were understood could they truly expand on it

[Ripheus23]

I'm tired and skimming so IDK if someone already brought this up, but having the parsh slaves for 4500 years must've been a factor in all this, too.

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

I'm tired and skimming so IDK if someone already brought this up, but having the parsh slaves for 4500 years must've been a factor in all this, too.

An interesting point.  Although only about 2000 years actually.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[bxcnch]

On 12/4/2019 at 9:07 AM, PrinceGenocide said:

So khriss mentions in AU that in 300 yrs , Scadrial has made immense progress . We have seen it first hand in BoM. 

She also posits that without Tlr , the technology would already be space age or post scarcity.

But on Roshar , it has been 4500 yrs since the last desolation and it's still in the middle age. 

Now I understand that Roshar and Scadrial are quite different. Scadrial doesn't have to deal with Highstorms destroying railways and other such inventions.

But even considering those factors, Roshar is extremely backward in scientific progress and technology. 

In 1968 Arthur C Clarke wrote a famous novel about a starship of scientists trying to fly to Saturn with a fully sentient supercomputer. This book is called 2001: A Space Odyssee. Some time later he wrote a sequel: 2010: The Year we Make Contact. As you without a doubt know, we - in 2019 - have - as far as I know - not yet made contact with any alien species, nor are we even close to sending people to Saturn. And yet in 1968, it seemed plausible that we might have by 2010. And of course, today nobody knows what technology will look like in 2050 for example. Will we have flying cars and autonomous driving? Or will the newest innovation be yet another new iPhone? Who knows, maybe we will even have regressed technologically. It is almost impossible to accurately predict how fast a civilisation will develop technologies. IRL we only have one humanity whose history we can compare Roshar's to and as far as we know, our development could have all gone completely different. You cannot really base empirical arguments on something that happened only once. So saying that Roshar "should have" developed faster or slower or anything is completely impossible. 

On 12/4/2019 at 9:07 AM, PrinceGenocide said:

On Scadrial we have seen the magic system used in novel ways to fuel technology.

Yet , Roshar which has Fabriel-istics, an entire magic/science system which requires only scientific research to perfect it is still so backward !!!!

Anyone could do it at any time and yet ,

Even among spanreeds and heating fabriels ,it's only in the past 5-6 yrs that any great progress has been made in them.

On Scadrial Allomancy and Feruchemy were known to their respective users for hundreds of years. On Roshar, Surgebinding has gone basically extinct. Fabrials meanwhile don't seem to be of much scientific interest, weird as it may be. Navani's interest in Fabrials is seen as more of a hobby even by herself and Shallan does not seem particularly interested in Fabrials. Jasnah herself is apparently more focused on sciences like sociology, history, theology and (political) philosophy, less on natural sciences. Of course Fabrial sciences exist, otherwise the half-shards and the various other advances in Fabrials that you named couldn't be explained. But we don't know how long the research into Fabrials exists. After all, spren are completely natural to the people of Roshar. You see dozens of spren every day, they are just like cremlings. It's not anything special to see one, they are basically like singbirds or bugs in real life - pieces of wildlife that you definitely see but that you don't really think about a lot. Ornithology and entomology are rather new sciences as well, historically speaking. Spren sciences might be rather new to Roshar as well. Especially because, as Shallan demonstrates - and was supposed to demonstrate - scientists for the longest time were not specialised at a specific topic. Charles Darwin was geologist, botanicist, zoologist, theologist and (in a way) even a geneticist. As revolutionary as the evolutionary theory of Darwin is, compared to modern biological studies it seems rather vague and unspecific - because when he lived, sciences were mixed and their knowledge was much broader. 

On 12/4/2019 at 9:07 AM, PrinceGenocide said:

The information based economy of Tashikk also seems recent.

I always assumed that was a cultural quirk of Tashikk and an old tradition, but I might have missed something. What makes you think it's recent?

On 12/4/2019 at 9:07 AM, PrinceGenocide said:

Then you have the hints at other Fabriels such as Navani's drawings of an inverse ship and the floating platforms which imply heavier than air flight or maybe even spacecraft.

The discovery about the flamespren obeying an Heisenberg uncertainty principle analog by the ardents in the isles in WoK is also extremely recent and a breakthrough as well. 

Isn't it strange that these the requirements for these discoveries/improvements have been in place for millenia and yet it is only now that the potential is crystallizing ?

In the history of science things frequently were discocered and re-discovered. Electricity was first discovered by the ancient Greek and in fact there are even signs that a few very, very primitive batteries were designed in antiquity. But apparently, humanity forgot about them again for about a thousand years. America was "discovered" at least three seperate times. Thomas More's utopia basically describes communism a few hundred years before Marx was even born. The Romans were already using a form of concrete for their buildings, in the middle ages their successors didn't. Fact is, ideas come and go all the time. You also need to remember the educational system of a medieval society - more than 90% of the population was living outside the towns, where the innovations that the few city-dwellers and noblemen discovered simply never really arrived. Farmers in, for example France, would pretty much live the same in 500 AD and in 1500 AD. Their clothes might have looked a little different, their language shifted a little and their landlords would probably have a different name. But their everyday life and their standards of life didn't. Until the Industrial revolution, progress and innovation were things that happen in cities and monasteries, but not on the land. All of that slows down technological development.

On 12/4/2019 at 9:07 AM, PrinceGenocide said:

The Vorin kingdoms have had extremely literate women and ardents studying natural sciences for millenia.

The Vorin Kingdoms have a caste system of 10 levels of nahn and 10 levels of dahn. Since Kaladin's mother in the 2nd Nahn was not a scholar, I am going to assume that women from the nahn-castes might be literate, but not really expected to be scholars or scientists. Seeing how Kaladin's/Azure's squad in Kholinar was composed of lighteyes of low dahn, but who were still basically identical to darkeyes soldiers, I am going to extend these speculations to the lower dahns. I am going to assume that women from Dahn 1 - 7 have enough access to good education and the scientific community to contribute to science in a meaningful way. That would be 7 castes of 20, which means that - assuming that the dahn and nahn all have the same amount of members - 35% of women may be scholars. However Dahns 1 and 2 consist only of the King and his closer family - if you ignore those few people we are left with 5 of 18 castes, which would be 28% of women. Furthermore, this model assumes that 1) there are exactly as many members of dahn 3 as in nahn 10 - which obviously isn't the case, 2) That all of the women have chosen devotaries that encourage scientific progress, 3) That these women do not have to take care of their household, children or their husbands and 4) That all of these women engage in natural science instead of history or linguistics or arts. I am to lazy to do any more maths now but I estimate that that would leave maybe 5% of all women, which means 2,5% of Alethi in charge of ALL sciences and arts. And, as already said, scholars like Shallan basically try to study everything at once, which - given the level of social progress in Roshar - is unavoidable, but also very inefficient.

On 12/4/2019 at 9:07 AM, PrinceGenocide said:

The Spren have been there even longer. 

The Soulcasters and Regrowth fabriels were present and endured even during the desolations.

The knights radiant have been gone for 2 millenia or so , allowing for fabriels to fill in the gaps.

Indeed Roshar seems to have gone through technological regression since the last desolation losing every Regrowth fabriel.

And now all of a sudden , just a few years before the Resurgent desolation, large strides have been made in technology .

Okay, now I'm confused. You think that after the Recreance the Fabrials replaced the Radiants, but you also say that Regeowth Fabrials were lost after the last desolation - before the Recreance?Besides, many types of spren are rare or unique, and it's quite likely that there never really were many of them. Furthermore, the most advanced Fabrials we've seen so far were in Urithiru. I imagine that the progress of Fabrial-sciences in the rest of the world may have been much slower than the Fabrials in Urithiru. 

Apart from that, the situation of the spren has changed. Honor has been splintered in the meantime - which obviously had an effect on the spren, who see themselves as "little pieces of gods". Since the Recreance, spren also have developed a preference for the CR. I think Wyndle said in Edgedancer that the Cryptics and Cultivationspren have decided to send spren into the PR again, which suggests that the sentient spren have remained in Shadesmar for a long time. And while I don't want to speculate about Fabrials and spren at this point, I can imagine that it would have an effect on Growth-based magics if Cultivationspren and Truthwatcher-Spren stay away from the PR.

On 12/4/2019 at 9:07 AM, PrinceGenocide said:

There is another curiosity , this growth has occured only in Alethkar and Jah keved . The other regions have simply imbibed them without making any original contributions.

Why has real growth not occured in the Makabaki region which seems just as suitable for creativity and innovation to flourish ?

It's more suitable actually , since they don't have gender or eye colour barriers to literacy , they generally have experienced greater peace than alethkar and instead have had to face a greater range of difficulties like famines for example ( Baxil's friend mentions one in living memory ), all of which foster innovation

Did progress only occur in Jah Keved and Alethkar? I mean, we usually see things only from the Alethis' perspective, right? Tashikk at least has a lot of spanreeds, which I remember you mentioned as evidence for rapid technological progress. Apart from that, the Makabaki had a genocide happen a few hundred years before. Countless Makabaki were slaughtered by Sadees the Sunmaker. The technological impact such events had on similiar civilisations in real life is huge. I would say that the various muslimic countries in the near east for example never one-hundred-percently recovered from the thousands of deaths caused by Genghis Khan and the Christian Crusaders around 1000 - 1200 AD. And famines do not necessarily foster innovation. Innovation happens in cities, famines meanwhile affect the poor and the farmers first. Take 1789 for example: Louis XVI found out the hard way that the educated upper classes often don't quite perceive the problems of the common people.

On 12/4/2019 at 9:07 AM, PrinceGenocide said:

And I admit , this following point is really teneous, but jasnah and I believe Navani too , saw a marked shift in Gavilar's personality towards the end right .

Could that also be linked to the Unmade ? Maybe Gavilar was always smart , but the Unmade had suppressed that aspect of him ?

Navani too seemingly went through a similar if less striking change in personality. It is only in recent years that she has immersed herself in fabriel science and while Gavilar's death and her exclusion from her usual social circles could be most of the reason. I don't think that's all. After all she could contributed more as an artifabrian even when Gavilar was alive . From what I know she was active in the community before but only later ,after becoming a widow does she show great creativity and innovation.

Similarly , Maybe it was also a factor in turning Dalinar from a simpleminded brute to a philosopher. Of course , Cultivation and Honor's visions and Gavilar's death all effected him but still him going all philosophical to such an extent is a marked difference from his earlier personality in such a short term.

I think the character changes in Gavilar are not really meant to imply that he became stupider. He just became more "weird", more interested into religion and mysticism. Just like people perceived Dalinar as weird in WoK. We know that he had some rather interesting guests shortly before his death and that he possessed some cosmere-awareness that can not be explained with his SoH-membership.

On 12/4/2019 at 9:07 AM, PrinceGenocide said:

While Nergaoul enrages one's emotions , , I believe this Unmade smothers one's intellect or more likely , perhaps the positive emotions scientific curiosity arouses . 

I really don't think Odium's forces are willing to soothe people's emotions. It doesn't really fit Odiums MO. And while I am all in favour of Odium representing more emotions than just hatred and rage, I really don't think scientific curiosity is part of his portfolio. 

 

Of course there is nothing that really proves your theory wrong and I think it would fit very well to Odium's established strategy. But - an unnamed Unmade, not described in Mythica, who covers the entirety of Roshar (!) despite WoB saying that the Unmade have less investiture than the Stormfather... I find that hard to believe, because usually such things are foreshadowed better in his books. And I think the backstory of repeated war, plus the influence of a conservative clerus, a caste system, dependence of a highly unpredictable ressource (spren), the lack of print, the conflation of science and arts, the fact that 50% of the population cannot read, the difficulty of building infrastructure due to highstorms and the complete disappearance of a magic system that humanity had relied on for millenia - all those are already major obstacles for a progressive society.

Edited December 5, 2019 by bxcnch

[Isilel]

On 4.12.2019 at 3:58 PM, PrinceGenocide said:

I think roshar has been above subsistence for a long time considering the Soulcasters.

 

Operating soulcasters isn't free. They use up specific types of gems, which are a limited resource. So, an army on the march would use them, but even then in Dalinar's flashback it is mentioned that he was trying to provision his troops conventionally when he fought his border wars with the Herdazians, the Vedens, etc. and only had 2 soulcasters as a backup. Back when the Kholins were fighting for unification and could loot their conquered enemies treasuries for gems, they could afford to rely on soulcasting more. Or when they suddenly got a huge influx of emeralds during the war against the Parshendi on the Shattered Plains. Soulcasters normally wouldn't have been used to feed the population, because gems would have  been hoarded for use in war or in an emergency - but that last mainly in the big cities.

 

On 4.12.2019 at 4:59 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

The high concentration of oxygen is a huge hindrance to technological advancements as we know them.

Yes, everything that could produce sparks or explode would be even more likely to do it on Roshar. Which is why they shouldn't have been expected to invent firearms, as primitive firearms couldn't be all that useful and black powder would catch fire and explode at the drop of a hat in the oxygen-rich atmosphere of Roshar.

 

Quote

 Rapid transit is also a problem on a world that catches a worldwide hurricane roughly every 2 weeks.

Not to mention that they only have super-slow chulls  for transport, with horses being too rare and costly to use as draught animals and complete lack of oxen, etc. But what is even worse is that they have few permanent rivers  - and highstorms would  play havoc with those too, making safe moorings impractical, and only allowing for use of light craft that can be quickly removed from the river and stored somewhere safe before the storm. Historically, river transport was essential for trade during the long periods in RL history when roads were bad. But Rosharans are deprived of that as well. Neither can they have water or wind mills. In agriculture, it is not clear how much productivity could be improved by better tools, if at all.  

 

On 4.12.2019 at 5:25 PM, PrinceGenocide said:

But I'm not talking about normal technology. I'm talking about fabriels which harness Spren. So far all the tools u need are gemstones to capture the Spren and the Spren have proven compliant. Thier constancy is the advantage.

It is not that simple. Gems need to be of specific type, quality, size and need to be given a very specific cut. All of this is quite expensive and as for the gem-cutting, good tools are required.

Spren of different types are not equally represented everywhere on Roshar and a lot of experimentation is needed to figure out what kind of spren could be attracted to what kind of gem and cut and what mechanism can be used to activate them. So, it is not surprising that it is only during the few decades prior to the beginning of the series that the "modern" fabrial science, which operates on different principles than the shards, soulcasters, etc. evolved. And that unified Alethkar was on the forefront of this development.

 

Quote

It's actually too easy. In just a few years so many advances have been made.

Not as few as you think. I am pretty sure that spanreeds already existed back when Adolin was 4 in Dalinar's flashback - maybe even before he was born. So, 2 decades at least prior to the beginning of the series proper.

 

Quote

These advances could have just as easily been made a 1000 yrs ago. Maybe even right after the recreance or the last desolation. All you needed were gemstones and some patience to observe the behavior of Spren ( and possibly some maths and small scale crafting and engineering which could have easily been developed in a few centuries.)

The folks at Feverstone Keep in Dalinar's vision didn't even have steel - just bronze and an occasional item from soulcast iron. They couldn't have cut any gems. It is likely that the Radiants used to be in charge of any gem-cutting previously, with their spren assuming the form of a tool.

And there is not any universal standard of technological development - there were plenty of civilzations iRL that never left the stone age or stagnated at some later stage, some technologies were invented and lost several times before they came to stay, etc.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Isilel

[+Oltux72]

On 04/12/2019 at 9:07 AM, PrinceGenocide said:

So khriss mentions in AU that in 300 yrs , Scadrial has made immense progress . We have seen it first hand in BoM. 

She also posits that without Tlr , the technology would already be space age or post scarcity.

But on Roshar , it has been 4500 yrs since the last desolation and it's still in the middle age. 

Now I understand that Roshar and Scadrial are quite different. Scadrial doesn't have to deal with Highstorms destroying railways and other such inventions.

Railroads are a late invention of the industrial revolution. To build them you already need to have cheap iron (preferably steel) and steam engines. We need to look earlier at coal mines, textile plants and transportation, that is into the 18th and 17th centuries. Roshar is a terrible place for transportation

1. Highstorms
2. No navigable rivers
3. The major lakes are not navigable either
4. One compact land mass
5. No soil - you cannot dig canals, you have to blast them out of rock
6. Horses are expensive. You are limited to chulls, who are strong and dependable, but slow.

It is also a planet without major power sources other than muscle power

1. Few, if any permanent rivers - no water mills
2. Good luck building a wind mill that will withstand a highstorm
3. Little soil, hence little sedimentation, hence no major basins or coal swamps in the past - no coal or oil or natural gas

A further problem is Vorinism. You have no real labor market. Wages are set by the church.

[Pathfinder]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Railroads are a late invention of the industrial revolution. To build them you already need to have cheap iron (preferably steel) and steam engines. We need to look earlier at coal mines, textile plants and transportation, that is into the 18th and 17th centuries. Roshar is a terrible place for transportation

1. Highstorms
2. No navigable rivers
3. The major lakes are not navigable either
4. One compact land mass
5. No soil - you cannot dig canals, you have to blast them out of rock
6. Horses are expensive. You are limited to chulls, who are strong and dependable, but slow.

It is also a planet without major power sources other than muscle power

1. Few, if any permanent rivers - no water mills
2. Good luck building a wind mill that will withstand a highstorm
3. Little soil, hence little sedimentation, hence no major basins or coal swamps in the past - no coal or oil or natural gas

A further problem is Vorinism. You have no real labor market. Wages are set by the church.

Why aren't rivers used? People sail close to the coast and then shelter from the storm and do fine. If anything rivers should be even better because they can plot certain outposts or points to shelter the barges. Water mills the same thing. A pully system to put the wheel in the water normally. When a highstorm comes, pull a lever to lift the wheel out of the water, and then lock it in place. We have those, and we don't even deal with highstorms. Rivers are most definitely permanent considering they pop up in the cognitive realm. That is what Kaladin and co traveled along in the cognitive realm. You are basing an awful lot on the shattered plains, when that is the unique situation. It takes the brunt of the highstorms. Jah Keved is incredibly lush and jungle like. The great shells by purelake are again incredibly lush. All of roshar is not barren. It just does so differently. 

[+Oltux72]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Why aren't rivers used? People sail close to the coast and then shelter from the storm and do fine. If anything rivers should be even better because they can plot certain outposts or points to shelter the barges. Water mills the same thing. A pully system to put the wheel in the water normally. When a highstorm comes, pull a lever to lift the wheel out of the water, and then lock it in place. We have those, and we don't even deal with highstorms. Rivers are most definitely permanent considering they pop up in the cognitive realm. That is what Kaladin and co traveled along in the cognitive realm. You are basing an awful lot on the shattered plains, when that is the unique situation. It takes the brunt of the highstorms. Jah Keved is incredibly lush and jungle like. The great shells by purelake are again incredibly lush. All of roshar is not barren. It just does so differently. 

No soil, well not much soil. In particular no root system and organics in the sand, which we know they have enough to use it in arenas, probably to be found in basins. There is very little capacity to hold back water. Add to that irregular seasons. That means no regular cycle of snow deposits at variable heights to melt into the summer. Water levels will fluctuate frequently, unpredictably and wildly. Remember that the Windrunner River was called one of the few permanent rivers.
The rivers as water courses are permanent. But not necessarily them being filled with flowing water, in particular enough water to run a loaded boat through. Furthermore where are the cities at major confluences and riverfords?

Roshar is like a tropical forest. They have the nutrients in the plants and very little in the soil. That is the way Roshar deals with water. There is just no way you can store water in stones, unless you form a pond. And those will evaporate quickly being exposed to the sun. The Shattered Plains must be one of the wettest places on Roshar It is closest to the ocean and regularly drenched by the Highstorms. Sebarial had no troubles establishing agriculture there. In fact Roshar seems to have no deserts. But it is just not a terrestial world.

All that water that pours down in a Highstorm must go somewhere and it won't go into the soil, as there is no soil. Every Rosharan (outside Shinovar) river will undergo a catastrophic flash flood in every Highstorm. That does not preclude them from supporting lush ecosystems, in fact it encourages it. Millions of little pockets of water in every crevice and puddles of water as the flood receeds. But for mills, that is no good.
 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

No soil, well not much soil. In particular no root system and organics in the sand, which we know they have enough to use it in arenas, probably to be found in basins. There is very little capacity to hold back water. Add to that irregular seasons. That means no regular cycle of snow deposits at variable heights to melt into the summer. Water levels will fluctuate frequently, unpredictably and wildly. Remember that the Windrunner River was called one of the few permanent rivers.
The rivers as water courses are permanent. But not necessarily them being filled with flowing water, in particular enough water to run a loaded boat through. Furthermore where are the cities at major confluences and riverfords?

There is a root system. They use vines that are retractable. When a highstorm comes, everything hides. When it passes, it all opens up. As to cities by rivers? Revolar, Shulin, Kholinar(between two rivers), Rathalas, Wedenar, Dumodari, and Karonak. That is just the east side of Roshar, grabbing a bunch of names. There are more. As I said, like the plants, the humans live in view of the highstorms. When the rivers run normally, use the water wheel, when highstorms come, retract and lock into place. 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Roshar is like a tropical forest. They have the nutrients in the plants and very little in the soil. That is the way Roshar deals with water. There is just no way you can store water in stones, unless you form a pond. And those will evaporate quickly being exposed to the sun. The Shattered Plains must be one of the wettest places on Roshar It is closest to the ocean and regularly drenched by the Highstorms. Sebarial had no troubles establishing agriculture there. In fact Roshar seems to have no deserts. But it is just not a terrestial world.

And yet there are numerous lakes across the map of Roshar. There is a giant "lake" called the purelake. 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

All that water that pours down in a Highstorm must go somewhere and it won't go into the soil, as there is no soil. Every Rosharan (outside Shinovar) river will undergo a catastrophic flash flood in every Highstorm. That does not preclude them from supporting lush ecosystems, in fact it encourages it. Millions of little pockets of water in every crevice and puddles of water as the flood receeds. But for mills, that is no good.
 

We have monsoon seasons on earth, and people have learned to live with it. Purelake is barely affected by a highstorm and that is wide and out in the open. The purelakers just find an alcove, put their boat against the rocks, and wait it out. With the shattered plains, the water drains out the east side. 

[+Oltux72]

11 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

There is a root system. They use vines that are retractable. When a highstorm comes, everything hides. When it passes, it all opens up.

Yes, they retract, so they do not stabilize soil. In terran soils roots act to keep together particles. To have that function they must stay in the soil.
The storms are not the issue. The issue arises due to the time after the storms. The roots stay only in the open while there is water to be sucked up. Water just does not last all that long on solid stone.
Without a stable soil, the water from rains cannot stay in that soil. It washes the soil downstream and once that is done it just immediately drains to the next river. You also get the effect that the organics in soil suck up water. Again there is no soil for organics to be in the first place. Rosharan plants lose water to evaporation.
That is not just theory. It is exactly what the more densely populated countries of Europe see when they seal more and more of their area with roofs and road surfaces. The speed of run-offs goes up and flooding gets worse. It is also one of the reasons areas with less plant cover are more prone to flash floods. Basic ecology.

11 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

As to cities by rivers? Revolar, Shulin, Kholinar(between two rivers), Rathalas, Wedenar, Dumodari, and Karonak. That is just the east side of Roshar, grabbing a bunch of names. There are more.

I stand corrected.

11 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

As I said, like the plants, the humans live in view of the highstorms. When the rivers run normally, use the water wheel, when highstorms come, retract and lock into place.

That leaves you with the less efficient kind of water wheel. It also limits the size of the wheel. And it does not help you when the water gets too low, which will be often.

11 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

And yet there are numerous lakes across the map of Roshar. There is a giant "lake" called the purelake.

Which are artificial and magical. The water vanishing just before the storm hits? A sea of spears?

11 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

We have monsoon seasons on earth, and people have learned to live with it. Purelake is barely affected by a highstorm and that is wide and out in the open. The purelakers just find an alcove, put their boat against the rocks, and wait it out. With the shattered plains, the water drains out the east side. 

Well, yes. You deal with it and Roshar is inhabitated. But dealing with it has consequences, some of which will be disadvantages for certain purposes. Trivial example, if you want carpeted ground floors, the Purelake is not the right abode for you. In countries with more arid climates and sporadic rains, settlement patterns change. In Spain for example, spots in river valleys close by the actual river are not the most popular areas for cities. You find them at some distance. Settlements in North Africa avoid large windows to the south, Northern Europe favors them. Roshar just happens to be worse for preindustrial activities.
That is perfectly normal and has precedents on Earth. The Polynesians lost ceramics and many crops and domestic animals the Lapita people, whom they descend from, still knew. Adaption to an island environment, whose limited resources didn't support some technologies.

[Pathfinder]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, they retract, so they do not stabilize soil. In terran soils roots act to keep together particles. To have that function they must stay in the soil.
The storms are not the issue. The issue arises due to the time after the storms. The roots stay only in the open while there is water to be sucked up. Water just does not last all that long on solid stone.
Without a stable soil, the water from rains cannot stay in that soil. It washes the soil downstream and once that is done it just immediately drains to the next river. You also get the effect that the organics in soil suck up water. Again there is no soil for organics to be in the first place. Rosharan plants lose water to evaporation.
That is not just theory. It is exactly what the more densely populated countries of Europe see when they seal more and more of their area with roofs and road surfaces. The speed of run-offs goes up and flooding gets worse. It is also one of the reasons areas with less plant cover are more prone to flash floods. Basic ecology.

Here is an article on the coppermind that covers how crem works. It covers Rosharan basic ecology that covers all of this

 

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Crem

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That leaves you with the less efficient kind of water wheel. It also limits the size of the wheel. And it does not help you when the water gets too low, which will be often.

Again, how do societies on earth deal with monsoon season then? You pick points in the river that flow for the water wheel without the highstorm, and build it to handle floods. Travel booms during monsoon seasons. Just after a highstorm, send various goods. Highstorms come regularly and can be semi predicted. That would provide for weekly travel on the rivers. 

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Which are artificial and magical. The water vanishing just before the storm hits? A sea of spears?

The planet Roshar was created. Its ecology has functioned for centuries, and humans have lived on the planet and functioned for centuries. Magical or artificial mean nothing to them, because that is normal for them. 

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, yes. You deal with it and Roshar is inhabitated. But dealing with it has consequences, some of which will be disadvantages for certain purposes. Trivial example, if you want carpeted ground floors, the Purelake is not the right abode for you. In countries with more arid climates and sporadic rains, settlement patterns change. In Spain for example, spots in river valleys close by the actual river are not the most popular areas for cities. You find them at some distance. Settlements in North Africa avoid large windows to the south, Northern Europe favors them. Roshar just happens to be worse for preindustrial activities.
That is perfectly normal and has precedents on Earth. The Polynesians lost ceramics and many crops and domestic animals the Lapita people, whom they descend from, still knew. Adaption to an island environment, whose limited resources didn't support some technologies.

And I would think the analogue would be closer to tidal towns as Roshar is based on tidal pools, or locations with frequent monsoon seasons such as India and Asia. 

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Here is an article on the coppermind that covers how crem works. It covers Rosharan basic ecology that covers all of this

Crem turns rapidly into rock. The capacity to retain water needs a soil with organics and a lot of voids.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Again, how do societies on earth deal with monsoon season then? You pick points in the river that flow for the water wheel without the highstorm, and build it to handle floods. Travel booms during monsoon seasons. Just after a highstorm, send various goods. Highstorms come regularly and can be semi predicted. That would provide for weekly travel on the rivers.

You cannot sail a flash flood. People in monsoon climes build wind mills or build their water mills on the rivers supplied by mountain ice and snow.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

The planet Roshar was created. Its ecology has functioned for centuries, and humans have lived on the planet and functioned for centuries. Magical or artificial mean nothing to them, because that is normal for them.

At the risk of repeating myself, there is no logical connection between normal and suitable for some activities.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

And I would think the analogue would be closer to tidal towns as Roshar is based on tidal pools, or locations with frequent monsoon seasons such as India and Asia. 

Not all that many. As you noted: crem. Whereever water pools, crem will accumulate faster. Roshar has a tendency to become smoother over time.

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Crem turns rapidly into rock. The capacity to retain water needs a soil with organics and a lot of voids.

Did you take the time to read the article I linked?

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

You cannot sail a flash flood. People in monsoon climes build wind mills or build their water mills on the rivers supplied by mountain ice and snow.

They use dams during the monsoon season to direct the waters, and power their country. 

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

At the risk of repeating myself, there is no logical connection between normal and suitable for some activities.

At the risk of repeating myself, it is said constantly over the course of all three books that everyone lives in view of the highstorm. Ships sail from coastal dock to coastal dock accounting for highstorms. Storm cisterns provide drinkable water. Buildings are even built tilted with it in mind. You really do need to read that link I posted. it covers all of this. 

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Not all that many. As you noted: crem. Whereever water pools, crem will accumulate faster. Roshar has a tendency to become smoother over time.

Again covered in the article at the link I included. 

[StanLemon]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Again, how do societies on earth deal with monsoon season then? You pick points in the river that flow for the water wheel without the highstorm, and build it to handle floods. Travel booms during monsoon seasons. Just after a highstorm, send various goods. Highstorms come regularly and can be semi predicted. That would provide for weekly travel on the rivers. 

 

The issues with comparing Roshar with a place with monsoon seasons are just that, seasons.

Roshar has a storm that happens at least once a week that are comparable to the worst storms we ever have on Earth if not worse. That causes lots of wear and tear on a constant bases. Compare that to anywhere here on Earth with monsoon seasons. We have the majority of the year to perform upkeep before the next storm seasons. 

I'm not saying that it would be impossible for Roshar to develop under that situation but it would be much harder and require a lot more effort and labor than it does here. So comparing them seems a false comparison to me

[Pathfinder]

27 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The issues with comparing Roshar with a place with monsoon seasons are just that, seasons.

Roshar has a storm that happens at least once a week that are comparable to the worst storms we ever have on Earth if not worse. That causes lots of wear and tear on a constant bases. Compare that to anywhere here on Earth with monsoon seasons. We have the majority of the year to perform upkeep before the next storm seasons. 

I'm not saying that it would be impossible for Roshar to develop under that situation but it would be much harder and require a lot more effort and labor than it does here. So comparing them seems a false comparison to me

Highstorms have been predicted relatively accurately. The prediction, and preparations are enough that travel out in the open during a highstorm though may not be preferable, is possible (paneled wagons, ships along the coast, etc). Eshonai has commented how people can even individually weather highstorms outside. You just need to be prepared. We have seen numerous examples through all three books of people capable of that. Again the article I posted states numerous activities people and the ecology do in view of the highstorm and crem. It requires different skills than we have, and different timing, but it is very much real. Otherwise farms, villages, towns, and cities could not exist on Roshar. 

[Karger]

29 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Highstorms have been predicted relatively accurately

They are also relatively slow and dramatic and thanks to spanreads you can see them coming and have several hours advanced warning.

[StanLemon]

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Highstorms have been predicted relatively accurately. The prediction, and preparations are enough that travel out in the open during a highstorm though may not be preferable, is possible (paneled wagons, ships along the coast, etc). Eshonai has commented how people can even individually weather highstorms outside. You just need to be prepared. We have seen numerous examples through all three books of people capable of that. Again the article I posted states numerous activities people and the ecology do in view of the highstorm and crem. It requires different skills than we have, and different timing, but it is very much real. Otherwise farms, villages, towns, and cities could not exist on Roshar. 

They don't travel during the high storm. They must lock things up and people need to secure everything and find/make cover. High storms are regularly described as being able to throw boulders.

Also any kind of permanent structure needs to be well fortified to handle and break the wind or they will be broken apart. Add years of wear and tear from having at least one of those storms every week will make anything complicated and delicate require a large amount of upkeep. Much more than happens anywhere with monsoon season here. The books do show examples of how they have adapted yes. But it's fairly clear you are underplaying how problematic the high storms are to Rosharan development.

Using the water wheel example above. It's already been pointed out how your suggestion would be inefficient. But also Rosharans woul only be able to do it with rivers that were North/South in any lasting way. East/West rivers would be almost impossible.

A big aspect to development is cost/benefit and this seems far too costly for the benefits 

Edited December 11, 2019 by StanLemon

[Karger]

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

every week will make anything complicated and delicate require a large amount of upkeep

The highstorms themselves help with that.  They drop a layer of cement on everything.

[StanLemon]

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

The highstorms themselves help with that.  They drop a layer of cement on everything.

Not helpful for anything with moving parts

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Not helpful for anything with moving parts

They are not really at the moving parts stage yet.   Even if they were anything that delicate would have to be put inside anyway.

[StanLemon]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

They are not really at the moving parts stage yet.   Even if they were anything that delicate would have to be put inside anyway.

Except development like the aforementioned water wheel that has been suggested before. Roshar is antagonistic to development, that's the whole point of this thread. An explanation for why Roshar isn't as developed

Edited December 11, 2019 by StanLemon

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Except development like the aforementioned water wheel that has been suggested before. Roshar is antagonistic to development, that's the whole point of this thread. An explanation for why Roshar isn't as developed

Put the waterwheel indoors.  You would have to do so anyway if you want it not to be destroyed by a highstorm.

[+Oltux72]

8 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Put the waterwheel indoors.  You would have to do so anyway if you want it not to be destroyed by a highstorm.

Turning the task of building a water wheel into the task of building a house that is built to withstand a flooding river in its ground floor. Which now has to be decremed. And you cannot build dams out of soil. It needs to be crem or rock. A water wheel is supposed to save labor. Meaning that if it takes that much effort, it is no longer feasible.

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Turning the task of building a water wheel into the task of building a house that is built to withstand a flooding river in its ground floor. Which now has to be decremed. And you cannot build dams out of soil. It needs to be crem or rock. A water wheel is supposed to save labor. Meaning that if it takes that much effort, it is no longer feasible.

Good thing parshmen are a thing.  Also their is no soil on roshar to build the dam out of.  I would recommend making a wooden framework and coating it in crem which will steadily harden into stone.  As a side note if you build it in the right shape highstrom crem will actually repair your dam.