The Unmade and Roshar's technology

[Friendshipspren]

So khriss mentions in AU that in 300 yrs , Scadrial has made immense progress . We have seen it first hand in BoM. 

She also posits that without Tlr , the technology would already be space age or post scarcity.

But on Roshar , it has been 4500 yrs since the last desolation and it's still in the middle age. 

Now I understand that Roshar and Scadrial are quite different. Scadrial doesn't have to deal with Highstorms destroying railways and other such inventions.

The shardblades also serve to deincentivize guns and explosives.

But even considering those factors, Roshar is extremely backward in scientific progress and technology. 

On Scadrial we have seen the magic system used in novel ways to fuel technology.

Yet , Roshar which has Fabriel-istics, an entire magic/science system which requires only scientific research to perfect it is still so backward !!!!

Anyone could do it at any time and yet ,

Quote

While the fabrials were known for centuries, it was only recently that the pace of fabrial inventions picked up, with creations such as the heating fabrials and spanreeds being only a few decades old at most.

Even among spanreeds and heating fabriels ,it's only in the past 5-6 yrs that any great progress has been made in them.

This progress, however , has been extremely rapid.

Spanreeds, halfshards, painriels, heating fabriels , Greatbows , alarmers , emotion sensors , stormclocks ,attractors have all been devised or perfected only in the last half decade. 

The information based economy of Tashikk also seems recent.

Then you have the hints at other Fabriels such as Navani's drawings of an inverse ship and the floating platforms which imply heavier than air flight or maybe even spacecraft.

The discovery about the flamespren obeying an Heisenberg uncertainty principle analog by the ardents in the isles in WoK is also extremely recent and a breakthrough as well. 

Isn't it strange that these the requirements for these discoveries/improvements have been in place for millenia and yet it is only now that the potential is crystallizing ?

The Vorin kingdoms have had extremely literate women and ardents studying natural sciences for millenia.

The Spren have been there even longer. 

The Soulcasters and Regrowth fabriels were present and endured even during the desolations.

The knights radiant have been gone for 2 millenia or so , allowing for fabriels to fill in the gaps.

Indeed Roshar seems to have gone through technological regression since the last desolation losing every Regrowth fabriel.

And now all of a sudden , just a few years before the Resurgent desolation, large strides have been made in technology .

There is another curiosity , this growth has occured only in Alethkar and Jah keved . The other regions have simply imbibed them without making any original contributions.

Why has real growth not occured in the Makabaki region which seems just as suitable for creativity and innovation to flourish ?

It's more suitable actually , since they don't have gender or eye colour barriers to literacy , they generally have experienced greater peace than alethkar and instead have had to face a greater range of difficulties like famines for example ( Baxil's friend mentions one in living memory ), all of which foster innovation

 I think the answer is that there is an Unmade whose power is analogous to Nergaoul who caused the Thrill

While Nergaoul enrages one's emotions , , I believe this Unmade smothers one's intellect or more likely , perhaps the positive emotions scientific curiosity arouses . 

Making them incapable or atleast less likely to exhibit innovation. 

This is similar to how soothing and rioting form a pair in allomancy. .

This would explain why Roshar has been so backward in technology , even tho it had lots of time and potential. 

It's possible Odium used futuresight to see that technological growth would severely harm his cause 

Or perhaps he saw how much stronger humans became once Soulcasters and Regrowth fabriels were granted to them.

Quote

“The Desolations. You’ve done scholarly work on Vorin theory, yes? Can you tell us of the Desolations?”

Kalami cleared her throat.

“They were destruction made manifest, Brightlord. Each one was so profoundly devastating that humankind was left broken. Populations ruined, society crippled, scholars dead. Humankind was forced to spend generations rebuilding after each one. Songs tell of how the losses compounded upon one another, causing us to slide farther each time, until the Heralds left a people with swords and fabrials and returned to find them wielding sticks and stone axes.”“

So perhaps when Odium went hibernating , he realized the peacetime would allow technology to flourish and hence , he tasked one of the Unmade with strangling innovation. 

I think this Unmade would not have been mindless like Nergaoul , since it's task required much more precision.

Also note that Soothing generally requires greater precision than Rioting. This seems to be true on Roshar as well.

I also believe that this Unmade had a greater geographic range than Nergaoul or Moelech.

Nergaoul settled in Alethkar until the thrill became an important part of Alethi culture and war drive , whereas Moelach moved adopted a more nomadic lifestyle , moving from one region to another dragging death rattles along with it.

Our Unmade however had to cover all of Roshar. Technology has a way of spreading from one region to another , leave one small region and any tech they invent would soon spread across the continent,  hence this was an absolute requirement. No region could be spared.

It makes sense. Odium left Nergaoul loose to prevent political unity in roshar and Nergaoul has succeded. The 10 highly interconnected Silver kingdoms have all gotten smaller or fragmented or gone extinct and got more isolated as well.

Many regions in central roshar are either unpopulated or at tribal levels of political organization. I think Nergaoul is atleast partially responsible for this situation.

The Alethi unification was a freak occurrence , a deviation.  Indeed , it would have been short lived too if not for the events that occured , mainly Gavilar's assassination, as we know Sadeas was planning on seizing power , Elkohar was weak ,Dalinar would have remained a drunk. Alethkar would have broken down again as it did after Sadees the Sunmaker died.

So Nergaoul inhibited political unity , whereas our Unmade inhibited technological growth.

As for why this smothering effects have ceased  , atleast in Eastern Roshar , I believe the Sons of Honor were responsible.

We know about the blacklighted gems Gavilar had  and Navani says that gavilar thought he had created them.

Could it be that Gavilar and the SoH , had imprisoned the part of the Unmade over Eastern Roshar ?

Maybe they thought this would lead to technological growth ( a proven assumption ) which would force Odium into coming back soon , which in turn would force the heralds to return.

Maybe this was one of the reasons Odium manipulated Gavilar's assassination,  except Rayse didn't plan on Szeth fulfilling Gavilar's dying wish and hiding the gemstone. 

I think it's imprisonment is somewhat akin to Ruin's imprisonment. Like Ruin's mind was imprisoned. 

Similarly maybe the Unmade's mind along with part of it's body is imprisoned. The rest of it is now covering most of Roshar and smothering growth by instinct.

And I admit , this following point is really teneous, but jasnah and I believe Navani too , saw a marked shift in Gavilar's personality towards the end right .

Quote

Her father smiled. “Is it terribly difficult for you?” he asked softly. “Living with the rest of us, suffering our average wits and simple thoughts? Is it lonely to be so singular in your brilliance, Jasnah?”
She took it as the rebuke it was, and found herself blushing. Even her mother Navani could not do that to her.”

 

He glanced back at her, lingering. Pale green eyes, evidence of his good birth. When had he become so discerning? Storms . . . she felt as if she hardly knew this man any longer. Such a striking transformation in such a short time.
 

Could that also be linked to the Unmade ? Maybe Gavilar was always smart , but the Unmade had suppressed that aspect of him ?

Navani too seemingly went through a similar if less striking change in personality. It is only in recent years that she has immersed herself in fabriel science and while Gavilar's death and her exclusion from her usual social circles could be most of the reason. I don't think that's all. After all she could contributed more as an artifabrian even when Gavilar was alive . From what I know she was active in the community before but only later ,after becoming a widow does she show great creativity and innovation.

Similarly , Maybe it was also a factor in turning Dalinar from a simpleminded brute to a philosopher. Of course , Cultivation and Honor's visions and Gavilar's death all effected him but still him going all philosophical to such an extent is a marked difference from his earlier personality in such a short term.

So what do y'all think ? 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Aon Tia]

Roshar has seen a lot of war and destruction. During desolations, we have been told that human societies actually regressed technologically. Before that, I think Dawnsingers were having a decent level of technology. All the dawncities that we’re created, they had single unified codified language etc. But at the time of Ahrateim, humans were wielding bronze weapons at best and stone clubs. That proves that at the time of last desolation, human society was at its basic levels, Stone to Bronze Age. After the last desolation, heralds turned their backs to humanity instead of providing scientific knowledge. Radiants were still engaged in war with the singers and unmades, this war went on for another 2000 or 2500 years. These wars must have further hindered any technological advancement. 
Finally, singers were lobotomised and made Parshmen and Radiants also left. 
 

From here onwards, Roshar should have seen progress. But then Honor died and cultivation went into hiding. All the active agents of progress have been removed. Presence of shardblades and plates and soulcasters have certainly impeded progress and made humans look for the easy way to solve their problems. Much like in elendel basin. Easy Availability of manual labour I.e. parshmen has further reduced the need for finding scientific solutions. Need is the greatest catalyst for progress and inventions. 
Then Roshar suffers the constant onslaught of highstorms. Whatever efforts have been made have gone towards making human settlements highstorm resistant. 
Roshar has also seen the greatest number of global level wars than any other planet in Cosmere. War is never good for progress. 
I think Rosharan high oxygen environment also poses problems, why electricity may not be safe to use and lack of tectonic movements no fossil fuels no coal or crude oil based technology. 
therefore, as opposed to Scadrial, Roshar will always follow a more magic-based invention route. 
So, already Roshar has a lot of historical and physical factors for its lack of advancement. 
But adding an unmade to the mix? Well you can say that already thrill has caused people to be more occupied with fighting than innovations. 

[Friendshipspren]

But @The traveller ur answer explains the lack of growth in traditional science but not fabriel science. 

Like if they didn't have the traditional alternative , they should moved towards harnessing Spren through fabriels . 

They had the Spren , the minds required to make inventions and the need as well ( as the recent tech boom has proved. )

Why didn't it occur sooner ? It could have occured millenia earlier . The Soulcasters inspired artifabrians and they have been around since the desolations. 

The artifabrial revolution could have occured soon after the fall of the hierocracy , it could have happened even sooner in the non vorin kingdoms .

War isn't always bad for technology. The desolation level wars were , but most normal wars boost technology. In our world , Aircraft and motorized vehicles development made great leaps during the first world war. Nuclear and missile tech made similar bounds during the second world war. Jeeps , industrial production of chemicals , etc , were all due to war. You can follow this link to see the whole list Here.

A good example would be the development of chemical weapons in ww1 which would later be adapted for synthetic fertilizer production on which half the world population now relies to not starve .

The non vorin kingdoms  had less shardblades and had greater necessity for developing halfshards. The invasions by the sadees the sunmaker and the shin should have made that possible. Yet it didn't happen ?

Why is it only occuring in the last half decade ?

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Aon Tia]

1 minute ago, PrinceGenocide said:

The desolation level wars were , but most normal wars boost technology. In our world , Aircraft and motorized vehicles development made great leaps during the first world war. Nuclear and missile tech made similar bounds during the second world war. Jeeps , industrial production of chemicals , etc , were all due to war.

And here I agree with you that even this advancement was impeded by the existence of shardblades and plates. High oxygen levels in the atmosphere should make gunpowder infeasible. Aircraft and motor vehicles and railways are not developed due to highstorms. You need long stable kms worth of networks of railway lines and Smooth roads, with highstorms good luck maintaining them. 
Food industry and manufacturing industry has not developed due to soulcasters. 
 

I think in Earth’s history, we have 3-4 millennia with low advancement and only last 500 years have seen tremendous increase in advancement. I think Roshar has reached the equivalent of industrial revolution in fabrial revolution, but now that it has, we should see an exponential growth in technological advancement. 
 

But you might have a point too. There might be something more happening behind the scenes. After all we see even in the listeners society also had only recently seen explorations and looking for newer forms. May be odium was suppressing life on Roshar from advancing. 

[Friendshipspren]

41 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I think in Earth’s history, we have 3-4 millennia with low advancement and only last 500 years have seen tremendous increase in advancement. I think Roshar has reached the equivalent of industrial revolution in fabrial revolution, but now that it has, we should see an exponential growth in technological advancement. 

We spent 9.5 millenia developing pre - industrial revolution conditions.

In order for the industrial revolution to occur lots of factors were required .

*A high population which had large requirements which could be satisfied by mass production and intensive agriculture ( not required on roshar cause Soulcasters ) and which also statistically increased the number of geniuses.

* Competition between nations to militaristically dominate each other via greater technological growth.

*The printing press which allowed easier flow of information and greater literacy.

*A high rate of literacy among the population so that more people could be involved.

*Lots of interconnection between different societies allowing for technology to proliferate easily ( Roshar is literally one continent with lots of ports and good overland and naval trade routes.)

* Patent rights ( azir satisfies this condition I think ) and a society which places emphasis on personal autonomy through finance which would then inspire would be inventors. ( Alethkar comes to mind as does Azir. )

*Good , strong and cheap sources of paper like papyrus, which allow literature to be copied much more economically compared to costly vellum and fragile palm leaves.

* Metallurgy to aid in making printing machines ( which Soulcasters provide ) , I believe roshar has iron smelting too.

* And it's a fallacy to assume necessity is the only mother of invention. In fact, many or most inventions were developed by people driven by curiosity or by a love of tinkering, in the absence of any initial demand for the product they had in mind or by accident.

A good example is the history of Thomas Edison’s phonograph, the most original invention of the greatest inventor of modern times. When Edison built his first phonograph in 1877, he published an article proposing ten uses to which his invention might be put. They included preserving the last words of dying people, recording books for blind people to hear, announcing clock time, and teaching spelling. Reproduction of music was not high on Edison’s list of priorities. A few years later Edison told his assistant that his invention had no commercial value. When other entrepreneurs created jukeboxes by arranging for a phonograph to play popular music at the drop of a coin, Edison objected to this debasement, but well we know what happened and who won.

And 19th-century chemists found the middle distillate fraction of crude oil useful as fuel for oil lamps. The chemists discarded the most volatile fraction (gasoline) as an unfortunate waste product—until it was found to be an ideal fuel for internal-combustion engines. So that's another non-necessity based major invention.

This wasn't possible during Roman/Han/ Mauyran times since then most ppl were illiterate , paper was costly and fragile , there were no patent rights , society frowned on individualism and tended towards tribalism ( ie, your profit belongs not only to you but to ur entire tribe whether u like it or not ), no good ink , metallurgy was backward and  costly , etc.

The industrial revolution occured in 17th century England because all these conditions were met by then. Most of the world had satisfied all the conditions except for the desire for personal autonomy and individualism which was endemic to Europe.

Europe and England in particular were just plain lucky to have a culture which placed an emphasis on that from the 14th century or earlier.

Now back to topic , Roshar satisfies most of the conditions with the exception of a printing press , I guess , which they should have invented already , seeing that all the requirements and the need for movable type is present. They have ink , paper , different and pure metals/alloys for different parts of it , a good simple script, translators ,etc.

They have had pre industrial Conditions for atleast a 1000 years now  and the Spren and gems for far longer , , yet are in stasis. Preservation would approve but not Cultivation , which makes it all the more curious, until odium comes into the picture .

41 minutes ago, The traveller said:

But you might have a point too. There might be something more happening behind the scenes. After all we see even in the listeners society also had only recently seen explorations and looking for newer forms. May be odium was suppressing life on Roshar from advancing.

Hey , yeah that's a nice catch. The listeners spent millenia  lacking curiosity until 5 yrs ago. And they are right next to alethkar too. 

I guess our Unmade inhibited them too.

Edited December 4, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Aon Tia]

2 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Hey , yeah that's a nice catch. The listeners spent millenia  lacking curiosity until 5 yrs ago. And they are right next to alethkar too. 

I guess our Unmade inhibited them too.

Which is totally weird, right?
 

For a land that has so much water, they have not much progress done in ship-building either. They stay close to coast and stop before highstorms. 

[Friendshipspren]

19 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Which is totally weird, right?
 

For a land that has so much water, they have not much progress done in ship-building either. They stay close to coast and stop before highstorms. 

Idk makes sense. They probably have mapped all islands nearby the continent and they dare'nt voyage beyond the point where they can't return back to land ,ere the Highstorm approaches. Besides I doubt there is any land beyond roshar anyway. Hell even roshar is an anomaly , the continent has so little volcanic activity it should have been eroded out by the ocean by now. It's the crem being deposited with every Highstorm that keeps the land in equilibrium with the sea. 

Although the seas are probably calmer directly west of Shinovar, even during Highstorms. We saw the smoking Soulcasters POV. It's rough but manageable. Hmmm yeah , but then again it's the shin we are talking about. 

But other traders could use it too. I wonder if they have tried or not. 

But even if they do I wonder if there's anything worth finding . Hey could there be a mirror continent on the other side ? Like it would fit right in with the symmetry fetish. I guess it's a Rafo. 

If they were to develop flight with enough stormlight to last some 10 days , I guess they could follow the Highstorm and circumnavigate the globe.

[Honorless]

Actually...

Quote

Questioner

Is the landmass the stretches from Shinovar to Alethkar the only continent on that planet?

Brandon Sanderson

It's the only continent. It's not the only land but it's the only large landmass.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Quote

Snoxcatko

Roshar--it's obviously, it is or it seems to be in the Southern Hemisphere. Is there something else in the world?

Brandon Sanderson

There are no other continents. It's not completely--it is Southern Hemisphere--but I think we inch up above the equator, don't we?

Isaac Stewart

Just a bit, just the islands. They kinda curve over the equator.

Brandon Sanderson

There are no other continents but there might be other smaller landmasses.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

Quote

Questioner

So Roshar is pretty small on the map. Are there other species on the planet that we don't know about?

Brandon Sanderson

Roshar is primarily the one continent. There are no other continents.

Questioner

No other continents?

Brandon Sanderson

No other continents... There are no other major landmasses on the planet.

Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

Quote

Questioner

Is there more to the Roshar world than what is shown on the map or is it just that?

Brandon Sanderson

There is only one continent. Now if you are paying attention, that's not answering your question completely.

Questioner

It's just different realms and all that. I meant like more landmass.

Brandon Sanderson

There is only one continent on Roshar.

Questioner

Just different versions of it.

Brandon Sanderson

That doesn't mean there aren't islands out there.

Now the Mistborn world there is a whole lot more.

Questioner

We've only had that one little part so far.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, but it's basically almost all empty because... Which is actually very fun for the worldbuilding, is this idea of a mostly unpopulated world.

Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)

Quote

FireArcadia

Does the world map in The Way of Kings show all of the landmasses of Roshar? Does that make the continent on Roshar a Pangaea-like supercontinent? And as I think about it, are there tectonic plates on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

It is a supercontinent. I won't say there is NOTHING out there, but (unlike Scadrial) there is not another full continent. Plate tectonics are not a factor on the supercontinent.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

With Oathbringer and the advent of the Everstorm alongside the various myths and stories like Wandersail and Puuli's interlude, it seems the Origin of Storms might actually be a thing

[Friendshipspren]

6 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Actually...

With Oathbringer and the advent of the Everstorm alongside the various myths and stories like Wandersail and Puuli's interlude, it seems the Origin of Storms might actually be a thing

Hmm that was illuminative. 

I wonder , maybe there's a knight radiant fortress , like perhaps past radiants with access to gravitation and transportation found that landmass and established a fortress there , something to retreat to in case the continent fell to the voidbringers. 

Another urithiru perhaps. Maybe the sibling is hiding out there. 

Or it could be the place where Ba-ado-mishram is currently held captive. 

The SkyBreakers can access gravitation so I guess they still can go to that place. Maybe it's thier base of operations. 

Which means it's an enemy fortress now. 

Ah all this is speculation. We have nothing to go on. We will just have to RAFO.

 

[Honorless]

Hmm... your theory evokes the Unmade Dai-Gonarthis

But I think it is far more likely that this suppression was something Odium bent all his available and suitable Unmade to.

[Karger]

6 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Isn't it strange that these the requirements for these discoveries/improvements have been in place for millenia and yet it is only now that the potential is crystallizing ?

TLR stopped scientific advancement but he also directly or indirectly preserved many different technologies that were important fpr example metallurgy, steel working, the mathematics of supply.  Later Saze gave everyone the words of founding that helped them immeasurably.  Meanwhile on Roshar the population was scattered and had fallen dramatically.  They had the wars of the false desolation through 2thousand years ago and then the war of loss(church control).  Really Roshar has only been advancing for maybe 300 years from subsistence farming.  With the help of ancient records, and societal structures.

6 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

The Alethi unification was a freak occurrence , a deviation.  Indeed , it would have been short lived too if not for the events that occured , mainly Gavilar's assassination, as we know Sadeas was planning on seizing power , Elkohar was weak ,Dalinar would have remained a drunk. Alethkar would have broken down again as it did after Sadees the Sunmaker died.

You are correct in that the unification was quite random but it would not have been short lived because of Gavilar's assassination.  Sadeas was not planing on taking power from Gavilar.  He only claims that he would have because at that point he is a thrill addict.  Dalinar had largely outlived his usefulness to Gavilar at that point.  No one was going to confront him militarily.  Elhokar would have been a fairly week king but if he had ascended after several more decades of education and to a throne surrounded by competent and loyal advisors he would have done decent job.

6 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

It's more suitable actually , since they don't have gender or eye colour barriers to literacy , they generally have experienced greater peace than alethkar and instead have had to face a greater range of difficulties like famines for example ( Baxil's friend mentions one in living memory ), all of which foster innovation

I personally think their peace is a bit overblown.  Tukar and Emul have been at war since forever for example.  Also they have fewer soulcasters, were conquered and badly damaged during the sunmaker's wars.  They have fewer soulcasters and the availability of large gemstones may be less.  Additionally most of their intellectuals go into their enormous bureaucracy to the best of our knowledge they don't have the large scientific institutions maintained by the ardentia.

6 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Could that also be linked to the Unmade ? Maybe Gavilar was always smart , but the Unmade had suppressed that aspect of him ?

Or maybe his bondsmith powers are kicking in.

 

[Friendshipspren]

4 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Hmm... your theory evokes the Unmade Dai-Gonarthis

But I think it is far more likely that this suppression was something Odium bent all his available and suitable Unmade to.

Yeah I thought dai gonarthis at first too. But then I didn't have enough proof to pin down any unmade , so I left it anonymous. 

I can list the unmade it isn't tho. 

Ashernmart , sja-anath , Moelach , Nergaoul, re-shepir, BAM if she's locked up. So it could one of the 3 remaining unmade. 

Or Maybe it's a new one. A tenth one. Maybe Odium created / modified it only after the last desolation so no humans know about it.

Maybe it was the sibling who was Unmade !!!!!!! 

Now I'm moving to random guesswork instead of some coherent, educated guesswork.

Still if it's the sibling who's been Unmade then perhaps one can bond with it and remove the innovation suppression from all roshar. 

All the Unmade huh , it is possible but wouldn't explain why Eastern Roshar has so suddenly been freed cognitively , esp in light of so many unmade roaming there. U have Moelach in kharbranth and the peaks. Nergaoul in Alethkar and Jah kaved. Ashernmart and sja anath in kholinar. Idk man

 

[Aon Tia]

34 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Hmm that was illuminative. 

I wonder , maybe there's a knight radiant fortress , like perhaps past radiants with access to gravitation and transportation found that landmass and established a fortress there , something to retreat to in case the continent fell to the voidbringers. 

Another urithiru perhaps. Maybe the sibling is hiding out there. 

Or it could be the place where Ba-ado-mishram is currently held captive. 

The SkyBreakers can access gravitation so I guess they still can go to that place. Maybe it's thier base of operations. 

Which means it's an enemy fortress now. 

Ah all this is speculation. We have nothing to go on. We will just have to RAFO.

 

Do not forget the Parshendi Ocean form!

[Friendshipspren]

11 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

TLR stopped scientific advancement but he also directly or indirectly preserved many different technologies that were important fpr example metallurgy, steel working, the mathematics of supply.  Later Saze gave everyone the words of founding that helped them immeasurably.  Meanwhile on Roshar the population was scattered and had fallen dramatically.  They had the wars of the false desolation through 2thousand years ago and then the war of loss(church control).  Really Roshar has only been advancing for maybe 300 years from subsistence farming.  With the help of ancient records, and societal structures.

You are correct in that the unification was quite random but it would not have been short lived because of Gavilar's assassination.  Sadeas was not planing on taking power from Gavilar.  He only claims that he would have because at that point he is a thrill addict.  Dalinar had largely outlived his usefulness to Gavilar at that point.  No one was going to confront him militarily.  Elhokar would have been a fairly week king but if he had ascended after several more decades of education and to a throne surrounded by competent and loyal advisors he would have done decent job.

I personally think their peace is a bit overblown.  Tukar and Emul have been at war since forever for example.  Also they have fewer soulcasters, were conquered and badly damaged during the sunmaker's wars.  They have fewer soulcasters and the availability of large gemstones may be less.  Additionally most of their intellectuals go into their enormous bureaucracy to the best of our knowledge they don't have the large scientific institutions maintained by the ardentia.

Or maybe his bondsmith powers are kicking in.

 

Ok u make good arguments. I will get back to you tmrw. 

I think roshar has been above subsistence for a long time considering the Soulcasters.

And idk , could Gavilar have really been a bondsmith ? If that's the case , how was he able to wield a deadblade. Why didn't he use surgebinding when he was fighting alone against Szeth ? 

Also I doubt the stormfather could have been bonded that easily by a guy like gavil. 

[Friendshipspren]

3 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Do not forget the Parshendi Ocean form!

There's an ocean form ?!! Wth is thar supposed to do ? This is the first time I'm hearing about it 

[Honorless]

14 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

There's an ocean form ?!! Wth is thar supposed to do ? This is the first time I'm hearing about it 

It's a theory

 

[Aon Tia]

17 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

There's an ocean form ?!! Wth is thar supposed to do ? This is the first time I'm hearing about it 

Yup it is a theory.  I was totally trolling you 

[GoWibble]

Just want to point out that Scadrial (as we know it) already had a unified area of land that was uncontested. the magic was already part of the culture. Roshar is all over the place with its politics and magic

[Friendshipspren]

25 minutes ago, GoWibble said:

Just want to point out that Scadrial (as we know it) already had a unified area of land that was uncontested. the magic was already part of the culture. Roshar is all over the place with its politics and magic

Well roshar was United during the silver kingdoms period. All the kingdoms were interdependent.  Besides even the Alethi princedoms rival elendel in size and maybe population. Places like Jah keved are as large as the Continental US and have greater populations.

Fabrial science is based on the Spren which are part of the ecology. To say they are a part of the culture is an understatement. 

[Bigmikey357]

The high concentration of oxygen is a huge hindrance to technological advancements as we know them. We did it by first harnessing fire, and that is not going to be easy on Roshar. Rapid transit is also a problem on a world that catches a worldwide hurricane roughly every 2 weeks. Harnessing magic is how they've progressed but spren are largely resistant to change. The tools humans would use to foster technology on Roshar are poor in comparison to Scadrial. The thing is,  Odium influences are not required to explain Rosharan lack of tech progress though he did help. 

[Friendshipspren]

44 minutes ago, Honorless said:

It's a theory

 

 

40 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Yup it is a theory.  I was totally trolling you 

Wow that's an amazing theory. At first I was like is this a joke and then it made sense. 

Nomadic schools of aquatic Singers moving around to avoid detection on shadesmar. Huh , hell that is an amazing thought. Maybe once the humans and voidbringers have destroyed each other and the shards are dead/emigrated , they will return back to land and restart civilization without any pesky humans I mortal or Shard form interfering.

[Friendshipspren]

27 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The high concentration of oxygen is a huge hindrance to technological advancements as we know them. We did it by first harnessing fire, and that is not going to be easy on Roshar. Rapid transit is also a problem on a world that catches a worldwide hurricane roughly every 2 weeks. Harnessing magic is how they've progressed but spren are largely resistant to change. The tools humans would use to foster technology on Roshar are poor in comparison to Scadrial. The thing is,  Odium influences are not required to explain Rosharan lack of tech progress though he did help. 

Ok they have fire. They even use it to cook and camp like we do. They can't harness electricity because if it tho , I guess.

The Highstorm is a great problem yes , 

But I'm not talking about normal technology. I'm talking about fabriels which harness Spren. So far all the tools u need are gemstones to capture the Spren and the Spren have proven compliant. Thier constancy is the advantage.

Fabrial science might actually be the easiest magic system we have seen so far. Anyone can use them , they have a variety of uses , you don't need genetically endowed ppl or expensive metals or traumatic experiences or being born in the right nation ( as on Sel ) to trap the spren. ( The crystals and gems can be Soulcast , so not very expensive). Neither are the Spren regionally locked , the exception being Shinovar. 

It's actually too easy. In just a few years so many advances have been made. Already they are replicating Shardplate and carrying out cross continental communication and soon they might get aircraft.

These advances could have just as easily been made a 1000 yrs ago. Maybe even right after the recreance or the last desolation. All you needed were gemstones and some patience to observe the behavior of Spren ( and possibly some maths and small scale crafting and engineering which could have easily been developed in a few centuries.)

Yet they weren't.

Also I find it hard to believe that Odium would be so negligent as to  go slumber for 4500 years , not taking technological growth into account , esp after the trouble some non-replicable Soulcasters gave him and the trouble he went to ,using Nergaoul to destroy political coherence. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Aon Tia]

Frankly I think that fabrial science is limited because they are trying to trap the spren and make it work.

But once they discover the way ancient Rosharans used to do it, by getting a bond built with spren and letting them handle the technical aspects of the surges  then we will see real advancement

[+ILuvHats]

To the OP: you make a lot of good points. I’m on the border believing that magical interference was necessary to account for the stunted technological growth. It has been a long time for fabrials to not come into popular use, but a lot of legitimate reasons have been brought up for why an Unmade’s interference isn’t necessary. One point I haven’t seen brought up is that the Recreance has to have set back tech growth a lot. The Radiants probably served as one of the main repositories of knowledge, with all the most talented scholars ending up as one of them or working directly with them. So when the order collapsed overnight, a lot of information was lost. And of course the introduction of dead Blades and shard plate caused mass chaos and disruption as well. 

29 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

The crystals and gems can be Soulcast , so not very expensive).

Actually, gemstones cannot be created through soulcasting. Shallan mentions this in WoK when she’s thinking about stealing Jasnah’s soulcaster. 

[Karger]

2 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

I think roshar has been above subsistence for a long time considering the Soulcasters.

These only work in a select few areas.  Food is hard to move on Roshar due to the highstorms.

2 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

And idk , could Gavilar have really been a bondsmith

WoBs indicate he was on the Bondsmith path and had been shown the visions. 

1 hour ago, GoWibble said:

Just want to point out that Scadrial (as we know it) already had a unified area of land that was uncontested. the magic was already part of the culture. Roshar is all over the place with its politics and magic

Very good.  It also had easy living conditions.

1 hour ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Well roshar was United during the silver kingdoms period. All the kingdoms were interdependent

Yeah but they kept getting blasted by Desolations. 

1 hour ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Fabrial science is based on the Spren which are part of the ecology. To say they are a part of the culture is an understatement. 

Modern fabrail science is fairly recent.  For example only the richest people in Kaladin's hometown have any and even they don't know much about how it works.

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The high concentration of oxygen is a huge hindrance to technological advancements as we know them

Not really sure about this.  It would make some tasks much easier(e.g purifying iron in a forge).  I bet the Rosharans are pretty used to it.

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Rapid transit is also a problem on a world that catches a worldwide hurricane roughly every 2 weeks

Every few days sometimes.  Yes this is a much greater problem.  Without wide scale transit you have no way of supplying a large urban population that you need to industrialize.

42 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Fabrial science might actually be the easiest magic system we have seen so far. Anyone can use them , they have a variety of uses , you don't need genetically endowed ppl or expensive metals or traumatic experiences or being born in the right nation ( as on Sel ) to trap the spren. ( The crystals and gems can be Soulcast , so not very expensive). Neither are the Spren regionally locked , the exception being Shinovar. 

We don't actually know how difficult actually making a fabrail is.  It is possible that they had the idea over a thousand years ago but it took generations of tinkering to actually get it right(like the steam engine).

44 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Also I find it hard to believe that Odium would be so negligent as to  go slumber for 4500 years , not taking technological growth into account , esp after the trouble some non-replicable Soulcasters gave him and the trouble he went to ,using Nergaoul to destroy political coherence. 

Time means very little to someone like Odium he is kind of a constant.  He does his best to slow things down where he can but I don't actually know if he wants to get rid of innovation.  The spanread network has been as much a problem for Dalinar as a help.