sa 4 Discussing SA 4 Chapter 1: Herdaz

[+Bliev]

41 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Odium's end goal is to be the only shard.  Think of it like chess.  The other pieces are only relevant in so far as they can help him kill shards.  Other then that they are meaningless.

True. I was thinking more short-term, Rosharan end goal. But you are correct.

[Karger]

16 minutes ago, Bliev said:

True. I was thinking more short-term, Rosharan end goal. But you are correct.

For just Roshar he wants to kill Cultivation, The Stormfather and obtain freedom from Honor's bonds.

[Diomedes]

23 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

For just Roshar he wants to kill Cultivation, The Stormfather and obtain freedom from Honor's bonds

Sure. I think he wants to obtain Honors Investiture by binding the Knights Radiant to his will. The Skybreakers are already on his side.

The oaths are not really anti-Odium, they are open to interpretation as Kaladin found out in OB. One interpretation could be honoring Odium. 

The Windrunners could be the exception. Syl is pretty horrified by Odium. 

[Karger]

33 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Sure. I think he wants to obtain Honors Investiture by binding the Knights Radiant to his will. The Skybreakers are already on his side.

The oaths are not really anti-Odium, they are open to interpretation as Kaladin found out in OB. One interpretation could be honoring Odium. 

The Windrunners could be the exception. Syl is pretty horrified by Odium. 

He does not want to obtain Honor's investiture.  That would corrupt his intent.

[Diomedes]

Just now, Ookla the Prolific said:

He does not want to obtain Honor's investiture.  That would corrupt his intent

yes directly taking  up the shard would, but having Knights Radiants around that are sworn by oath to his will does not. That way he can make use of that investiture without having his intent corrupted. 

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Diomedes said:

yes directly taking  up the shard would, but having Knights Radiants around that are sworn by oath to his will does not. That way he can make use of that investiture without having his intent corrupted. 

As a mid range goal it might be useful.  Long term I doubt he cares much.

[Aon Tia]

9 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Sure. I think he wants to obtain Honors Investiture by binding the Knights Radiant to his will. The Skybreakers are already on his side.

The oaths are not really anti-Odium, they are open to interpretation as Kaladin found out in OB. One interpretation could be honoring Odium. 

The Windrunners could be the exception. Syl is pretty horrified by Odium. 

I don’t remember any incident where it felt like he was interested in binding knights radiants to his will. I think he considers them nuisance at best. Even with dalinar, at the end of OB, first thing that he did is he pushed stormfather and dalinar away. He broke their bond and then attempted to make dalinar bond to him instead. 
when dalinar resisted, he swore the oaths and basically it was like he reforged his bond to stormfather and this time their bond was even stronger. 
I think what he wants, he has stated quite clearly.
He wants to kill cultivation.  

Give this world back to singers although it might be so broken by then that it would not be worth it. 

He wants to ensure somehow that honor remains splintered, I think that would involve killing stormfather somehow. 

kill all humans and only leave kharbranthians alive if he has to.

[Musica]

Everyone here has theories and opinions about the campaign against Odium and such. Meanwhile, the only thing I can think of is "please, Kal, tell me you actually have a plan here and you're not being foolishly reckless! You had a whole year of experience and growth since OB!"

 

LOL

Edited January 1, 2020 by Musica

[+Oltux72]

On 28/11/2019 at 2:50 PM, The traveller said:

Mainly, I don’t see why a fight with radiants would be lost in just a year and if radiants were actively participating then why are there so many refugees coming towards Alethkar, why were they not whisked away by windrunners instead?

Because Dalinar is a general who understands strategy and logistics. Refugees in Alethkar are a problem for Odium's side. Either they have to feed them or they will form marauding bands plundering Odium's farms. Dalinar is not going to waste his transport capacities on refugees and will feed the members of his coalition he has to feed.

On 01/12/2019 at 3:07 PM, Ookla the Toasted said:

Not really true. Dont forget that food is easily produced through Soulcasting on Roshar. Dalinar has access to Soulcasters, and they also have Queen Jasnah who is a walking Soulcaster. So they could provide food quite easily.

No. They could make it, but not provide it. The food would be produced where Jasnah is. And that is no good. Is Jasnah supposed to teleport through Herdaz all day long? It would take Windrunners, chull carts or a navy to transport food. All of these things have better uses.

[+Bliev]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Because Dalinar is a general who understands strategy and logistics. Refugees in Alethkar are a problem for Odium's side. Either they have to feed them or they will form marauding bands plundering Odium's farms. Dalinar is not going to waste his transport capacities on refugees and will feed the members of his coalition he has to feed.

No. They could make it, but not provide it. The food would be produced where Jasnah is. And that is no good. Is Jasnah supposed to teleport through Herdaz all day long? It would take Windrunners, chull carts or a navy to transport food. All of these things have better uses.

The realistic logistical nightmare of war is a consistent theme. And I'm glad for it. War is a protracted affair--even when we have action-packed battles, the majority of the time is spent strategizing, gathering intel, and managing the swathes of displaced humanity that stems from it. That's one reason I like that we're coming in hot focusing on Lirin--a man who has a thankless task of cleaning up the mess the "heroes" cause. It's a great place to pick up after the Hoid epilogue in OB. We saw the human cost there...now we're seeing it persist and grow. And the despair that Lirin feels...can Kal accept what Lirin has? That he can't save them all? 

Because this is what I worry about:

3 hours ago, Musica said:

Everyone here has theories and opinions about the campaign against Odium and such. Meanwhile, the only thing I can think of is "please, Kal, tell you actually have a plan here and you're not being foolishly reckless! You had a whole year of experience and growth since OB!"

 

LOL

Because I certainly hope so...

[rjl]

As at the end of Oathbringer the good guys seem to have the most powerful individual fighters.

But the bad guys are way more organised and have far more "magical" troops. I'd be very surprised if the Bad Guys were just losing everywhere.

To be honest I was almost surprised that the Bad guys couldn't take Urithuru when they attacked there in light of Kaladin being away (and hence the other windruinners being without powers) - the only defences were Malata (if she tried), various dead shards and mundane troops - a dozen fused should have gone through it like warm knifes through butter.

[+Child of Hodor]

On 11/28/2019 at 0:08 AM, The traveller said:

Herdazian General "the Mink" was the leader behind it and he is blamed by Lirin for all the bloodshed in a lost cause of a battle.

Tangent - I hate Lirin so much. He's a downer and a stick-in-the-mud. His pacifism annoys me. He even acknowledged to Kaladin that he knows fighters are necessary and what he really wanted was for Kaladin not to be the one fighting. 

How's making your wife live in a dreary backwater where everybody treats you terribly going, Lirin? Oh I forgot you care so much about the people there, is that why you stole from one of them? Can't stand this guy! 

[+Oltux72]

37 minutes ago, rjl said:

As at the end of Oathbringer the good guys seem to have the most powerful individual fighters.

Yelig-Nar? The Unmade? Nale?

37 minutes ago, rjl said:

But the bad guys are way more organised and have far more "magical" troops. I'd be very surprised if the Bad Guys were just losing everywhere.

They have far fewer ordinary troops. Shard bearers cannot hold territory. That is also true of the Fused. Dalinar is luring them into wasting their strength on occupation forces.

He also has the inner lines and naval superiority. He will use those advantages.

 

[StanLemon]

45 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Tangent - I hate Lirin so much. He's a downer and a stick-in-the-mud. His pacifism annoys me. He even acknowledged to Kaladin that he knows fighters are necessary and what he really wanted was for Kaladin not to be the one fighting. 

How's making your wife live in a dreary backwater where everybody treats you terribly going, Lirin? Oh I forgot you care so much about the people there, is that why you stole from one of them? Can't stand this guy! 

This seems to me a very simplistic and one dimensional view of Lirin. Lirin has several good points about his arguments. Yes he's a pacifist and his reasonings for being so are good. The world has plenty of soldiers and needs more educated surgeons. The whole campaign at the Shattered Plains shows how pointless a lot of bloodshed is. 

Also, their life was good until Rashone showed up. And his wife supported him. Yes he stole the spheres, he's human and has flaws, big shocker. He helped the town free of actual charge and when his friend died he took the money that was on him to help his son. Money that wasn't even that valuable, it only became a big deal to Rashone because the guy was pretty and wanted his money. 

Does he take his ideals a little too far, possibly but he's one of the most good characters in the book. He's a right deal better person than Jasnah, Dalinar, etc.

[Karger]

5 hours ago, Musica said:

Everyone here has theories and opinions about the campaign against Odium and such. Meanwhile, the only thing I can think of is "please, Kal, tell you actually have a plan here and you're not being foolishly reckless! You had a whole year of experience and growth since OB!"

I wish I could find my possible things that could be happening list

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Because Dalinar is a general who understands strategy and logistics. Refugees in Alethkar are a problem for Odium's side. Either they have to feed them or they will form marauding bands plundering Odium's farms. Dalinar is not going to waste his transport capacities on refugees and will feed the members of his coalition he has to feed.

This being said he could use additional labor to start farms close to the warcamps.

1 hour ago, rjl said:

To be honest I was almost surprised that the Bad guys couldn't take Urithuru when they attacked there in light of Kaladin being away (and hence the other windruinners being without powers) - the only defences were Malata (if she tried), various dead shards and mundane troops - a dozen fused should have gone through it like warm knifes through butter.

There were multiple Alethi shardbearrers at Urithiru.  Beyond that we don't know if any fused actually entered during the battle.  Jasnah claimed that the city had protections against that sort of thing.  Beyond that even shardbearers have trouble attacking in close confines without the ability to coordinate easily in the hallways of the tower city.

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Tangent - I hate Lirin so much. He's a downer and a stick-in-the-mud

Well it is his job to save lives and he lives in a wartorn country. 

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

His pacifism annoys me

Sorry that someone has ideals that are different then yours?  In all seriousness I get you and am defiantly guilty of the same problem but that does not mean that Lirin deserves that kind of attitude.

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

How's making your wife live in a dreary backwater where everybody treats you terribly going, Lirin? Oh I forgot you care so much about the people there, is that why you stole from one of them? Can't stand this guy! 

He stole from someone because he could not rely on an agreement being kept.  As far as Lirin is concerned it was only theft in the legal sense of the word not the moral one.  He saves the lives of people who need him and his wife supports his decision. 

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

This being said he could use additional labor to start farms close to the warcamps.

That is only the second best option. Ideally you use escapees from areas the enemy firmly controls now, so that your enemy is deprived of agricultural labor. Then you drive unreliable people unable or unwilling to do useful work into his lands.
Besides, the new queen of Alethkar wants Alethi there, not Herdazians. Predictable power politics.

[Karger]

30 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Besides, the new queen of Alethkar wants Alethi there, not Herdazians. Predictable power politics.

I doubt that Herdazians can get all the way across the continent.

[Isilel]

16 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

How's making your wife live in a dreary backwater where everybody treats you terribly going, Lirin? Oh I forgot you care so much about the people there, is that why you stole from one of them? Can't stand this guy! 

I don't hate Lirin and I admire his principles in the abstract, but he does have his share of problematic flaws and Hessina comes across as a bit of a doormat for staying with him and even having another child after what happened to their older sons due to his ambitions. To be honest, Lirin is remarkably similar to the past Dalinar in that he focussed on his firstborn, who had similar aptitudes to himself, and tried very hard to turn him into a "mini-me" through whom he could vicariously achieve everything that he didn't in his own life, all the while neglecting his younger son and sacrificing his interests. I also have a distinct impression that their hardships were in part due to Lirin being too proud to ask Hessina's family for help soon enough and maybe even to the extent that they really needed. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that they might have been able and willing to pay for Kaladin's education themselves, if asked. As a man with wordly experience, Lirin should have also foreseen that Tien was vulnerable - that his children needed to be removed from danger once Roshone had demonstrated that he was going to fight over Wistiow's "bequest" of spheres.

In addition, I hate how Lirin still considers Laral a possession that should have been his family's, but was denied them. She was 12-13 when her father died, and she never indicated any desire to become a surgeon's wife. Her and Kal were childhood friends, but no more than that, and likely mainly due to lack of other options. It was also technically her whom he was stealing the spheres from. Now, I wouldn't call her "one of the people", necessarily, but it was still fairly crummy, IMHO. Particularly since nobody seems to consider that the money could have gone to _her_ education, instead.   

 

15 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

This being said he could use additional labor to start farms close to the warcamps.

I think that they'll have more than enough Alethi refugees for that. And the problem will be with protecting those farms, which the Fused would be able to raid and destroy at their leisure. I suspect that that's why the Desolations were so devastating - neither side could really defend their infrastructure against enemy surgebinders. Hopefully, this time around fabrial science will provide the means for normal soldiers to fend off the Fused, at least temporarily, and actually prevent  damage.

 

15 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

There were multiple Alethi shardbearrers at Urithiru.  Beyond that we don't know if any fused actually entered during the battle.  Jasnah claimed that the city had protections against that sort of thing. 

There was also eventually Teft and possibly also Lopen as Radiants on the spot. But yea, it doesn't seem like it was supposed to be more than a hit-and-run strike, to deliver a blow to the morale of the people gathered there and to give the parshmen fighting experience. I am not sure if Urithiru protections are still functional enough to keep out the Fused, since they didn't work against Re-Shepir, but maybe they don't know that.

 

15 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

He stole from someone because he could not rely on an agreement being kept.  As far as Lirin is concerned it was only theft in the legal sense of the word not the moral one.  He saves the lives of people who need him and his wife supports his decision. 

I doubt that there was any firm agreement, since Wistiow was ailing for a while before his death and had enough time to write a proper testament, if he wanted to. The fact that when Hessina explained things to Kaladin in WoK it all sounded a lot more tentative and that Lirin still thinks about things working out properly in connection with Kaladin being married to Laral, suggests to me that Wistiow told Lirin that he would allow their children to wed and that funding Kal's education would be contingent on that. However, Laral didn't want to become a surgeon's wife (and descend quite a few steps down the social ladder in the process), she wanted to manage land, which she could only do as a wife of a landed lighteyes. Nor was she in love with Kal and prepared to sacrifice her own wishes because of that. So, the only way that there could have been a firm agreement was if Wistiow was prepared to force this match against the interests and desires of his own daughter, which would put both him and Lirin in a very bad light.

 

21 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Because Dalinar is a general who understands strategy and logistics. Refugees in Alethkar are a problem for Odium's side. Either they have to feed them or they will form marauding bands plundering Odium's farms.

Or they could take the most logical approach - kill them. The humans currently outnumber the singers and I don't see how the Fused could achieve their goal of reclaiming Roshar for their descendants without severely reducing human population, if not eradicating it entirely. In fact, I am quite surprised that the Fused allow Heartstone to take in refugees and that there is enough food to share with them. After all, we have been told again and again in OB how the Everstorm and the parshmen walking out during the critical agricultural period  were going to cause a widespread famine, but there was no hint of it in this chapter.

 

21 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No. They could make it, but not provide it.

Not only that, but using the Soulcaster devices breaks the gems, which are a limited resource, and for all we know repeated use of gems by Radiants might as well. I don't think that it is plausible for even all the exile Alethi to be fed exclusively via soulcasting in the long term, leave alone the other needy nations.

 

 

[+Oltux72]

53 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Or they could take the most logical approach - kill them.

Making sure no human force would ever surrender again. And the refugees would form war bands. And the Parshendi would be hated even more. And no human kingdom would consider a peace deal after that.
That would also suit Dalinar.

53 minutes ago, Isilel said:

The humans currently outnumber the singers and I don't see how the Fused could achieve their goal of reclaiming Roshar for their descendants without severely reducing human population, if not eradicating it entirely.

Yes. Odium's side has a conflict between strategic and operational goals.

53 minutes ago, Isilel said:

In fact, I am quite surprised that the Fused allow Heartstone to take in refugees and that there is enough food to share with them. After all, we have been told again and again in OB how the Everstorm and the parshmen walking out during the critical agricultural period  were going to cause a widespread famine, but there was no hint of it in this chapter.

How long is a growing season on Roshar? And we have no idea what happened to the big cities.

As for not taking them in, what do you want to do, let them roam the country roads? You lose ground transportation if you do that. And if you were to try kill them, how sure are you you would win? It looks to me like there are not enough Singers in a small town to hold it against resistance. They rely on a threat of reinforcement coming on a punishment expedition. Such a threat works only if the oppressed think that they have a hope of survival if they obey.

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

So, the only way that there could have been a firm agreement was if Wistiow was prepared to force this match against the interests and desires of his own daughter, which would put both him and Lirin in a very bad light.

Considering who she eventually ended up married to(and I find myself doubting that she had much of a choice in the matter) I doubt she could have done much better.  Also we don't know if she would descend rank.  Perhaps the legal codes would have let her keep running the land anyway.

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

Or they could take the most logical approach - kill them. The humans currently outnumber the singers and I don't see how the Fused could achieve their goal of reclaiming Roshar for their descendants without severely reducing human population, if not eradicating it entirely. In fact, I am quite surprised that the Fused allow Heartstone to take in refugees and that there is enough food to share with them. After all, we have been told again and again in OB how the Everstorm and the parshmen walking out during the critical agricultural period  were going to cause a widespread famine, but there was no hint of it in this chapter.

They are likely trying to prevent the humans from feeling like they have nothing to loose.  If they did they would kill the parshemen who they greatly outnumber and that would cause problems.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

How long is a growing season on Roshar? And we have no idea what happened to the big cities.

Roshar does not really have seasons.  Planing and harvesting seem to happen year round.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Considering who she eventually ended up married to(and I find myself doubting that she had much of a choice in the matter) I doubt she could have done much better.  Also we don't know if she would descend rank.  Perhaps the legal codes would have let her keep running the land anyway.

She would retain her rank, Kaladin would be raised up to the highest level of darkeyes he could be, and if their child was a lighteyes, the child would outrank Kaladin. It is discussed in the book. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

She would retain her rank, Kaladin would be raised up to the highest level of darkeyes he could be, and if their child was a lighteyes, the child would outrank Kaladin. It is discussed in the book. 

Thank you.

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Thank you.

No problem. For completeness here is the quote with the pertinent portions highlighted:

 

Way of Kings page 364

"How would he feel, marrying someone like Laral? He'd never be her equal. Their children would have a chance of being lighteyed or darkeyed, so even his children might outrank him....."

"If he went to war, however, he would have a place. Maybe he could even do the nearly unthinkable, win a Shardblade and become a true lighteyes. Then he could marry Laral and not have to be her inferior."

[Aon Tia]

@Isilel a different way to look at Lirin but I think everything you say, merely shows that he is not perfect and is as liable to flaws and biases as any other human. I think he focused only on making kaladin a surgeon because he did not want his sons to have a half education that he could offer and they could not afford to send both their sons to Kharbranth. They could not afford to send kaladin even.
I do not see anywhere in the text that would imply that he looks at Laral as a possession then or now, he was simply hoping his son to make the best possible match their small town could offer. And it was very plausible considering that kaladin already belonged to 1st or 2nd dahn amongst the darkeyes. 

The money that he stole was used by him as a light source for his surgeries which is a noble enough use and he was going to use it to provide for kaladin’s medical education which in the long run would have greatly helped their town in the future. I do not think that anybody really believes that Roshone would have let Laral spend that money on her education of art or history. Most likely, Roshone would have spent it away in bribes hoping to find a new posting. 
 
I think none of them thought that Tien could be drafted for the army simply because Tien was too young to be drafted up till recently..

 

[Chiberty]

On 12/2/2019 at 11:01 AM, Oltux72 said:

On 12/2/2019 at 10:20 AM, rjl said:

As at the end of Oathbringer the good guys seem to have the most powerful individual fighters.

Yelig-Nar? The Unmade? Nale?

Yeah, I'd say team Odium actually has the most powerful individual fighters. The Unmade are extremely powerful, the Fused have 1000s of years of experience, the Skybreakers are the one order that doesn't have to relearn everything, and the master Skybreakers are fourth oath with decades of experience.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Ookla the Chicken