Perpendicularityy portals

[Higgs-Boson Spren]

Can perpendicularities work as portals? If they pierce all three realms then they should be able to transfer to the spiritual as well as cognitive. And since all places are one in the spiritual could you go into one perpendiculaity and pop out another?

[Quantus]

Theoretically yes, and this is more or less how we think the Oathgates work.  I say theoretically because they can definitely be used to transfer between the three Realms, however the experience of the Spiritual Realm is so much more alien to normal Space-Time that actually navigating it to some practical purpose is extremely difficult, as compared to the more familiar Cognitive Realm.

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Theoretically yes, and this is more or less how we think the Oathgates work.

Ish.  We are not really clear on this and neither(as far as I can tell) is Brandon really.

8 minutes ago, Higgs-Boson Spren said:

Can perpendicularities work as portals? If they pierce all three realms then they should be able to transfer to the spiritual as well as cognitive. And since all places are one in the spiritual could you go into one perpendiculaity and pop out another?

Aon Tai seems to work a bit like this.

[Quantus]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Ish.  We are not really clear on this and neither(as far as I can tell) is Brandon really.

Right, that's the "More or Less" I mentioned.  He hasnt decided how the Ashyn migration went down, but he repeatedly and strongly implies that the Oathgates use the Spiritual Realm, saying that for the actual Migration he may have to default to a Cognitive Realm explanation once he sits down to work through the details.  Either way they are using the same Perpendicularity-style Realmic travel mechanism that is how everything from Shardpools to Elsecalling works.  

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Did humans come to Roshar through Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson

It is technology or magic closer to how the Oathgates work. But it was like that. It's not canon but right now that's what I have. It's not canon because there are certain things I have to work out before that can work...

By the way I'll just say to the tape recording that I haven't canonized, like for instance if they traveled to Shadesmar to get to Shinovar from Ashyn. Right now I have that not being via Shadesmar, but the mechanics of that might not work out, and I might have to default to Shadesmar. So there's certain things, you'll see, where I say, "This isn't the canon answer, it's where I have things right now."

Overlord Jebus

So Urithiru might end up being a spaceship after all.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not that. Right now I have them using something closer to Oathgating, but it opens up a huge can of worms, when I'm not requiring direct-- When I'm sending through Spiritual Realm it opens up cans of worms, and I have to just make sure the mechanics on that are tight before I do it.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

 

[Higgs-Boson Spren]

It would make sense that someone with a lot of practice (cough cough Hoid) would be able to do this.

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Higgs-Boson Spren said:

It would make sense that someone with a lot of practice (cough cough Hoid) would be able to do this.

If Hoid can we have yet to see him do so but if anyone knows how it would likely be him.

[Quantus]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

If Hoid can we have yet to see him do so but if anyone knows how it would likely be him.

That's my thought as well. He's the closest thing to a full-on Investiture expert, yet we've still seen him doing it from the Cognitive.  The only counter I can think of is that perhaps he knows how but chooses not to because traveling via the Spiritual Realm directly would be something he could not hide from the Shards as easily as the rest of his activities.  

[Karger]

Just now, Quantus said:

He's the closest thing to a full-on Investiture expert

Khriss?

[Quantus]

22 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Khriss?

To my mind Kriss is a very promising up-and-coming scholar, whereas Hoid wrote the textbook, and was present when many of the major discoveries were first made.  Put another way, Kriss is like a very bright and promising modern scientist, but Hoid is what would happen if Nikola Tesla were immortal and had remained involved in technological development for the last 100 years.

[StarrFall]

9 minutes ago, Quantus said:

To my mind Kriss is a very promising up-and-coming scholar, whereas Hoid wrote the textbook, and was present when many of the major discoveries were first made.  Put another way, Kriss is like a very bright and promising modern scientist, but Hoid is what would happen if Nikola Tesla were immortal and had remained involved in technological development for the last 100 years.

Well stated.  Also, Vasher falls into the same boat as Khriss and is potentially more knowledgeable.

Edited November 27, 2019 by StarrFall

[Karger]

14 minutes ago, Quantus said:

To my mind Kriss is a very promising up-and-coming scholar, whereas Hoid wrote the textbook, and was present when many of the major discoveries were first made.  Put another way, Kriss is like a very bright and promising modern scientist, but Hoid is what would happen if Nikola Tesla were immortal and had remained involved in technological development for the last 100 years.

I also think they are working form different perspectives.  Hoid is more episteme and Khriss is more techne.

[Elegy]

It's paraphrased and those tend to be less trust-worthy, but still worth posting I think:

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Is Hoid the most knowledgeable about what's going on in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, Khriss is the most aware by a long shot. Nazh knows a lot as well. Hoid might know more than Nazh but he is pretty in the know as well so it's close.

Words of Radiance Houston signing (March 11, 2014)

Khriss would definitely have figured it out I think.

That said, the encounters with the Spiritual Realm on page have usually lead to a "mind almost explodes" reaction of the respective character, so I don't think it's that easy. Just knowing how probably doesn't do.

Edit: Ah, there's a recording of him confirming it:

Quote

ChocolateRob

There’s a character again that you've talked about in other signings-- That character has more information than Hoid about the cosmere. How does she have more information than Hoid?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, she is a very detail oriented person and takes the time to research very deeply into things. Where Hoid will often research enough as he needs to know to sound really smart and get what he wants. It is a matter of depth, if that makes sense.

ChocolateRob

Have we seen her?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhh, I don't know if you've seen her or not. I'm sure I slipped her in somewhere but I'm not sure... I think I may have, but I can't guarantee it.

Footnote: The character in question is Khriss, who at this point had not yet appeared in a published work.
Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014)

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Elegy

[Weltall]

Spiritual Realm travel is possible (as was made explicit with the possibility of using it for the Ashyn-Roshar exodus, even if Brandon changes it to Cognitive travel) and you can use Perpendicularities to access it, so in theory it should be possible to travel using Perpendicularities as Spiritual teleportation hubs. Given that Oathgates, Aon Tia and the Dakhor monks' teleportation are instantaneous point-to-point, they're presumably making use of the Spiritual in a very controlled way and Perpendicularity travel would probably involve some similar mechanics.

Now, as was discussed in this topic here, Spiritual travel is probably extremely dangerous due to how time and space don't mean the same things there. We already know that it's dangerous to just look into it for too long without some kind of protection or filter to prevent the observer from breaking their brain. Trying to use it for travel without a great deal of precision could theoretically result in you ending up anywhere, anywhen or for a really fun time, everywhere or everywhen. Brandon's said that time travel into the past isn't going to be something he does with the Cosmere (and nobody knows how to do it yet if it can be done) but the risk is probably there if you try transitioning through the Spiritual incorrectly.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Ookla the Nameless

[StanLemon]

On 11/27/2019 at 0:43 PM, Elegy said:

It's paraphrased and those tend to be less trust-worthy, but still worth posting I think:

Khriss would definitely have figured it out I think.

That said, the encounters with the Spiritual Realm on page have usually lead to a "mind almost explodes" reaction of the respective character, so I don't think it's that easy. Just knowing how probably doesn't do.

Edit: Ah, there's a recording of him confirming it:

 

I think she may have more technical knowledge for sure, but hands on experience is almost certainly Hoid. There is a lot of difference between the two. Take a car for instance, you can know everything about cars in theory but until you actually get to work on one you won't know the little quirks and tricks.

[Honorless]

I think Brandon's comment on time and space in the Spiritual Realm adheres to Einstein's model of space-time. I don't think they'll be or can be any time travel in the Cosmere. It simply means that there is no time difference in the Spiritual Realm since everything is one.

 

Perpendicularities are portals. I don't even have any quibbles with the terminology this time. Both Elantrians and those with access to the Surge of Transportation, including the Oathgates seem to be capable of utilizing it.

[Elegy]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

I think she may have more technical knowledge for sure, but hands on experience is almost certainly Hoid. There is a lot of difference between the two. Take a car for instance, you can know everything about cars in theory but until you actually get to work on one you won't know the little quirks and tricks.

I don't see why the quirks and tricks wouldn't be included in this Brandon's definition of knowledge about the cosmere. And it's not like Khriss is stuck in her Silverlight office. We see that she likes to try things out in person.

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Elegy said:

I don't see why the quirks and tricks wouldn't be included in this Brandon's definition of knowledge about the cosmere. And it's not like Khriss is stuck in her Silverlight office. We see that she likes to try things out in person.

I'm not saying that they aren't included. But having a feel for something is different than having an academic understanding of something. And no she's not stuck, but as far as we know she's only still just an observer whereas Hoid has practical experience with multiple magic systems

[Weltall]

You realize that you're literally arguing against the author himself when he says that Khriss' 'academic' understanding is far more in-depth than Hoid's understanding as far as the magic goes, right? And that Hoid doesn't learn more than he needs in any given circumstance, whereas Khriss wants to learn all the quirks. See her interview with Wax where she wants to figure out exactly how A-Steel and F-Iron interact. She may be an observer in the sense that she doesn't personally use the magic systems she's describing but she collects firsthand observations whenever possible and interviews the people who do use the magics to understand them in more depth. She's  as thorough about it as any given circumstance allows her to be (or to be more Doylist, as thorough as Brandon wants her to be in any given book) and we know that she tests her observations whenever possible. For an example of this, look at her essay on AonDor and how she's tested to her satisfaction the necessity for both precision and Intent in using that system.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

I'm not saying that they aren't included. But having a feel for something is different than having an academic understanding of something. And no she's not stuck, but as far as we know she's only still just an observer whereas Hoid has practical experience with multiple magic systems

 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Nameless said:

You realize that you're literally arguing against the author himself when he says that Khriss' 'academic' understanding is far more in-depth than Hoid's understanding as far as the magic goes, right? And that Hoid doesn't learn more than he needs in any given circumstance, whereas Khriss wants to learn all the quirks. See her interview with Wax where she wants to figure out exactly how A-Steel and F-Iron interact. She may be an observer in the sense that she doesn't personally use the magic systems she's describing but she collects firsthand observations whenever possible and interviews the people who do use the magics to understand them in more depth. She's  as thorough about it as any given circumstance allows her to be (or to be more Doylist, as thorough as Brandon wants her to be in any given book) and we know that she tests her observations whenever possible. For an example of this, look at her essay on AonDor and how she's tested to her satisfaction the necessity for both precision and Intent in using that system.

Hoid might be better able to throw a baseball but I am going to want Khriss when it comes to my physics homework.

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

 

Hoid might be better able to throw a baseball but I am going to want Khriss when it comes to my physics homework.

Considering the difference between the two was brought up in regards to who could better deal with the Spiritual Realm, I would choose Hoid

[StanLemon]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Nameless said:

You realize that you're literally arguing against the author himself when he says that Khriss' 'academic' understanding is far more in-depth than Hoid's understanding as far as the magic goes, right? And that Hoid doesn't learn more than he needs in any given circumstance, whereas Khriss wants to learn all the quirks. See her interview with Wax where she wants to figure out exactly how A-Steel and F-Iron interact. She may be an observer in the sense that she doesn't personally use the magic systems she's describing but she collects firsthand observations whenever possible and interviews the people who do use the magics to understand them in more depth. She's  as thorough about it as any given circumstance allows her to be (or to be more Doylist, as thorough as Brandon wants her to be in any given book) and we know that she tests her observations whenever possible. For an example of this, look at her essay on AonDor and how she's tested to her satisfaction the necessity for both precision and Intent in using that system.

Academic understanding only goes so far. And yes she tests it, but if I suddenly got the power to lightweave I would ask Hoid over Khriss how to do it. I fully accept that she's a very knowledgeable person, even more so than Hoid but I would rather learn and to an extent trust someone with experience.

Edit: let's say you had to choose one of two people to help you navigate a forest. One person has studied every animal and plant and the trails of the forest but has never stepped in it in their life. The other may not know every facet of the forest but has spent years travelling it and experiencing it. Who would be more useful do you think?

Edited November 29, 2019 by StanLemon

[Bigmikey357]

It's a question of application.  Khriss is like the head researcher of the company while Hoid is the product salesman.  Researchers need data to perfectly understand how their products will work in real time conditions.  Salespeople need to know enough about their products to sell them effectively.  The salespeople won't know as much as the researchers but the salespeople will be better able to apply that knowledge. 

[Karger]

23 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Considering the difference between the two was brought up in regards to who could better deal with the Spiritual Realm, I would choose Hoid

Depends on what kind of equipment you had available.  A wayfiender is exactly what you need and a way smarter option until you have things like satellite imaging.

[StanLemon]

4 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Depends on what kind of equipment you had available.  A wayfiender is exactly what you need and a way smarter option until you have things like satellite imaging.

And people like Khriss are great for getting that GPS, but based on the methods currently known to be available in the Cosmere, Hoid would be the superior choice 

[Karger]

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

And people like Khriss are great for getting that GPS, but based on the methods currently known to be available in the Cosmere, Hoid would be the superior choice 

Where in the cosmere?  We have no idea what people at silverlight are capable of.