Wild Speculations and Random Thoughts

[twinsuns7]

Ok, I was very wrong about Brade's motivation for working with the Krell, my current suspicion is that she will switch sides at the last minute and sacrifice herself in book 4.  Wrong about the Kitsen Shadow Walkers being the hyperdrive as well. 

 

I had a thought today that Skyward is a prologue that got out of Sanderson's control, that  the intention had only been to write a trilogy but there where too many events from Spensa's training that he wanted to address in later books that made it necessary to expand it out to a full novel.

 

I'm curious as to how the hyperdrives would transport themselves away when a Superiority ship was stolen?  Especially considering that based on the procedures on the Weights and Measures seemed to be that they carry multiple slugs in case of engine failure. 

 

There are questions about Taynix physiology as well.  The first being what is the natural life cycle of a taynix?  My wild speculation is that the colony Jorgen found aren't the descendants of the Taynix that the Defiant brought with them but are, at least partially, the original slugs the humans had with them.  Further to this is that Doomslug was the hyperdrive for M-Bot, which is why Spensa says that she usually liked to be near him.

 

That speculation continues and gets even wilder here.  I think that the taynix may be immature delvers.  I may just be thinking of caterpillars turning into butterflies because of the dione method of reproducing, but I think it could be possible that the taynix are a type of larval from of the delvers.  This would explain why both species have cytonic abilities and also why every time they made a hyper jump Spensa could sense the eyes focusing on the source of the scream, they were looking at their young as it was being tortured.

 

Yep, I think that the Superiority's  method of using the slugs was torturing them in some way and I also think that it will turn out that Gran-Gran knows of ways to utilise them without hurting them.  If my earlier theory about the slugs lifespan is correct then Doomslug probably wouldn't hang about M-Bot still if it was a painful memory for her.

 

I'm a little surprised that nothing came of the sensors that had been in Spensa's helmet in Skyward.  I was sure that the DDF would have been using them to identify cytonics in their ranks.  Waiting for someone to decide to tell Cobb that they had seen the eyes of the delvers seems to be an inefficient way to find the people that they know have an invaluable ability.  The DDF did get a lot more skilled between books, it seems.  Sure they had Spensa and M-Bot, but while she was off at Starsight you never got the impression in any of the interludes that the DDF had started struggling without her.  You don't really get a chance to see much of Skyward flight when she gets back so they may have taken some casualties, but Cobb never seemed to have as many battles with mass casualties associated to them like Ironsides did.  Sure he's arguably better in the job than she was, but it's not like he changed their tactics too much.

 

One last thing about Doomslug, when Spensa first gets to Starsight and she is being hailed, she asks "By who?"  Doomslug immediately chimes in with "By whom!"  I'm pretty sure this is the only time that Doomslug doesn't just imitate the noise she hears.  But not only does she say something different, she corrects Spensa's grammar.  At least I presume she does, I've always been pretty vague about when to use whom  instead of who.  The point is is that she is saying something else, not just being a brightly coloured lyre bird.  I think that, because of my earlier theory that she was the original hyperdrive for M-Bot, she was actually repeating something that had been said by Commander Spears. 

 

Well, that's it for me, for now.  Feel free to tell me why my theories are wrong.  Or, even better, why they are right and a different piece (or any piece in some cases) of evidence to support it.

[Karger]

4 hours ago, twinsuns7 said:

I'm curious as to how the hyperdrives would transport themselves away when a Superiority ship was stolen?  Especially considering that based on the procedures on the Weights and Measures seemed to be that they carry multiple slugs in case of engine failure. 

The slugs are all trained to teleport away when stolen IE if they don't receive specific stimuli at appropriate times.

4 hours ago, twinsuns7 said:

My wild speculation is that the colony Jorgen found aren't the descendants of the Taynix that the Defiant brought with them but are, at least partially, the original slugs the humans had with them

I don't think the Defiant had any slugs.  They used Spensa's great grandmother remember?

4 hours ago, twinsuns7 said:

 

That speculation continues and gets even wilder here.  I think that the taynix may be immature delvers.  I may just be thinking of caterpillars turning into butterflies because of the dione method of reproducing, but I think it could be possible that the taynix are a type of larval from of the delvers.  This would explain why both species have cytonic abilities and also why every time they made a hyper jump Spensa could sense the eyes focusing on the source of the scream, they were looking at their young as it was being tortured.

Wound't this make them more aggressive?

4 hours ago, twinsuns7 said:

Sure he's arguably better in the job than she was, but it's not like he changed their tactics too much.

He also has access to more pilots and better fortifications then she did.

4 hours ago, twinsuns7 said:

The point is is that she is saying something else, not just being a brightly coloured lyre bird.  I think that, because of my earlier theory that she was the original hyperdrive for M-Bot, she was actually repeating something that had been said by Commander Spears. 

Agreed.

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

The slugs are all trained to teleport away when stolen IE if they don't receive specific stimuli at appropriate times.

I don't think the Defiant had any slugs.  They used Spensa's great grandmother remember?

Wound't this make them more aggressive?

He also has access to more pilots and better fortifications then she did.

Agreed.

Spensa's great grandmother worked in the engine room, but wasn't necessarily the means of FTL travel.  In the Weights and Measures it seemed that they had a cytonic crew member who activated the slugs somehow.  That could have been Spensa's great grandmother.

6 hours ago, twinsuns7 said:

That speculation continues and gets even wilder here.  I think that the taynix may be immature delvers.  I may just be thinking of caterpillars turning into butterflies because of the dione method of reproducing, but I think it could be possible that the taynix are a type of larval from of the delvers.  This would explain why both species have cytonic abilities and also why every time they made a hyper jump Spensa could sense the eyes focusing on the source of the scream, they were looking at their young as it was being tortured.

 

Yep, I think that the Superiority's  method of using the slugs was torturing them in some way and I also think that it will turn out that Gran-Gran knows of ways to utilise them without hurting them.  If my earlier theory about the slugs lifespan is correct then Doomslug probably wouldn't hang about M-Bot still if it was a painful memory for her.

 

I'm a little surprised that nothing came of the sensors that had been in Spensa's helmet in Skyward.  I was sure that the DDF would have been using them to identify cytonics in their ranks.  Waiting for someone to decide to tell Cobb that they had seen the eyes of the delvers seems to be an inefficient way to find the people that they know have an invaluable ability.  The DDF did get a lot more skilled between books, it seems.  Sure they had Spensa and M-Bot, but while she was off at Starsight you never got the impression in any of the interludes that the DDF had started struggling without her.  You don't really get a chance to see much of Skyward flight when she gets back so they may have taken some casualties, but Cobb never seemed to have as many battles with mass casualties associated to them like Ironsides did.  Sure he's arguably better in the job than she was, but it's not like he changed their tactics too much.

Ha- my theories were also wrong so I guess we're in good company?  

I like the idea that the taynix might be related to the delvers in some way.  I'm not sure if they are the larva form of Delvers, but don't really have much to back it up one way or another.  They are bugs/slugs, so maybe they are the original pests that the Delvers get annoyed with, bringing their attention to the "dimension" or plane of existence that everyone in the story lives on and assuming that all cytonic activity sources are just pests that bother them?

Regarding the DDF - I think the reason you see it get better is just complete organizational change.  That can be very powerful in a military.  Two armies with equal numbers and equipment do not perform equally.  If one is demoralized, has poor leadership, poor training, less will to fight, institutional pride, etc then it will do much worse even if it has superior numbers and equipment.  Ironsides seemed to have this desperate feeling to her - she was so scared that she just needed ships in the air no matter the quality.  She threw raw cadets into harm's way.  She was the one who created the expectations that the best pilots would actually be removed from fighting as a reward for their skill.  Everything she did was focused on surviving just one more day.  She created a culture that was defeatist.  Compare that to Cobb - he instilled professionalism, skill, pride, value in the individual pilots.  He planned for the future, he wanted to build up a strong military.  He is just a better leader and he got more out of his troops.  He did have some equipment advantages too, but his biggest advantage was the cultural and leadership advantage.

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Spensa's great grandmother worked in the engine room, but wasn't necessarily the means of FTL travel.  In the Weights and Measures it seemed that they had a cytonic crew member who activated the slugs somehow.  That could have been Spensa's great grandmother.

Spensa's grandmother says that she "was the ship's engine."  We also know that Spensa herself can teleport a ship.

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[agrabes]

40 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Spensa's grandmother says that she "was the ship's engine."  We also know that Spensa herself can teleport a ship.

 

Right, we know she would have been capable of doing it.  Just not sure if she actually did it.  There are cytonics in the Superiority that would be capable of FTL travel, but they aren't actually used for that purpose.  But if she did say that she "was" the ship's engine then that seems pretty concrete.

[+Bliev]

I like the slug/delver connection. And the thoughts that there is a connection between doomslug and mbot, that requires respect and autonomy and not enslavement and torture, lest the delvers get involved. Funny that the superiority sees primary intelligence as being lack of aggression, and thus they perceive a hierarchy of races toward that end, when the delvers know more and do more than the superiority could ever imagine. Reminds me of Men in Black 2 and the galaxy within the locker. :-)

[twinsuns7]

17 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Wound't this make them more aggressive?

Possibly, but not necessarily.  They are clearly an intelligent species, but not one that has a great understanding of the universe at a human level.  If they are unaware that the buzzing noises the snuff out from time to time are living beings than it follows logically that they wouldn't understand that they are related to a species that is even smaller.  They may not even be aware that they have a larval form, just because the Diones retain the memories of those type events doesn't mean all species would.  The screams may draw their attraction through an instinctive reaction and they're not even sure why.  Of course, they are also clearly a fairly moral species and it may simply be that they are being drawn to a creature in pain and are concerned about how to relieve it's suffering, but when Spensa contacted the mind of that delver he just seemed to want to cause the buzzing noises to stop because they were annoying him, not because they had hurt a member of his species.

[twinsuns7]

16 hours ago, agrabes said:

Regarding the DDF - I think the reason you see it get better is just complete organizational change.  That can be very powerful in a military.  Two armies with equal numbers and equipment do not perform equally.  If one is demoralized, has poor leadership, poor training, less will to fight, institutional pride, etc then it will do much worse even if it has superior numbers and equipment.  Ironsides seemed to have this desperate feeling to her - she was so scared that she just needed ships in the air no matter the quality.  She threw raw cadets into harm's way.  She was the one who created the expectations that the best pilots would actually be removed from fighting as a reward for their skill.  Everything she did was focused on surviving just one more day.  She created a culture that was defeatist.  Compare that to Cobb - he instilled professionalism, skill, pride, value in the individual pilots.  He planned for the future, he wanted to build up a strong military.  He is just a better leader and he got more out of his troops.  He did have some equipment advantages too, but his biggest advantage was the cultural and leadership advantage.

You're probably right with regards to this.  I think I read once that Napoleon said that moral is to physical as three is to one, a motivated soldier is worth three times an unmotivated one.  I think that it's like when you are playing a sandbox base building game, once you get to a point where there are no more resources on the map you can't afford as many new troops or buildings and you know that eventually the game will whittle you down to nothing.  The DDF just kind of stagnated and failed to grow.  I wonder how much of that is due to the death of Chaser?  He seemed to be the one that could talk the rest of the First Citizens into going along with the crazy plans, while Ironsides was the one that everyone looked to to say "well, if you think it's a good idea then we'll do it."  Kind of like Spensa and Jorgen.  With him gone, Ironsides didn't have anyone to really push her forward.

[Karger]

8 hours ago, twinsuns7 said:

I wonder how much of that is due to the death of Chaser?  He seemed to be the one that could talk the rest of the First Citizens into going along with the crazy plans, while Ironsides was the one that everyone looked to to say "well, if you think it's a good idea then we'll do it."  Kind of like Spensa and Jorgen.  With him gone, Ironsides didn't have anyone to really push her forward.

Ironsides anticipated the destruction of the DDF and kept it around for as long as possible.  If you see any actual options for her that would let her keep things going I invite you to share them.  Keep in mind that you are speculating with your entire civilization at the time.

[Snorkel]

On 27/11/2019 at 10:06 PM, twinsuns7 said:

The DDF did get a lot more skilled between books, it seems.

They got a LOT more acclivity rings between books, leading to more ships and more pilots being recruited.  That battle at the end of the other book, it also involved a large piece of debris that had hundreds of rings on it.

[Angsos]

@twinsuns7You might be right about Skyward for all we know, it wouldn't be the first time Brandon wrote a novel instead of a short story.

[cfphelps]

On 11/27/2019 at 4:06 AM, twinsuns7 said:

 

I'm a little surprised that nothing came of the sensors that had been in Spensa's helmet in Skyward.  I was sure that the DDF would have been using them to identify cytonics in their ranks.  Waiting for someone to decide to tell Cobb that they had seen the eyes of the delvers seems to be an inefficient way to find the people that they know have an invaluable ability.  The DDF did get a lot more skilled between books, it seems.  Sure they had Spensa and M-Bot, but while she was off at Starsight you never got the impression in any of the interludes that the DDF had started struggling without her.  You don't really get a chance to see much of Skyward flight when she gets back so they may have taken some casualties, but Cobb never seemed to have as many battles with mass casualties associated to them like Ironsides did.  Sure he's arguably better in the job than she was, but it's not like he changed their tactics too much.

 

 

I think part of this is the fact that the DDF is so much better positioned by the time book 2 starts with more access to salvage ship parts, more pilots, and some of the defensive platforms in their control, that the fight for survival wasn't quite as dire. Spensa was one of the, of not the, best pilot and Mbot was far and away their best ship, however they had started to implement more of MBot's designs in their own ships and with more fielded ships, I think Spensa was a smaller part of the total power than she was in say, Battle of Alta second. Plus Cobb and the other leaders had been thinking about grounding her do as not to risk losing her due to her overall importance in escaping with a hyper jump. This probably wouldn't have been possible if she was the sole reason the DDF was holding together. 

The other big reason is that I got the impression that the Krell had changed tactics by then with the arrival of the battleships. They started to test for weakness by bombarding the platforms, so they may not have been sending as many drones to attack by the time Spensa left. 

 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

On 11/27/2019 at 3:06 AM, twinsuns7 said:

at speculation continues and gets even wilder here.  I think that the taynix may be immature delvers.  I may just be thinking of caterpillars turning into butterflies because of the dione method of reproducing, but I think it could be possible that the taynix are a type of larval from of the delvers.  This would explain why both species have cytonic abilities and also why every time they made a hyper jump Spensa could sense the eyes focusing on the source of the scream, they were looking at their young as it was being tortur

Out of your many theories this has the most potential . However I think it’s the Ai that are immature delivers . It may be that slugs are . But this is what I’m thinking . Slugs are not scared of delvers . The project effection so when traveling thru The nowhere . The delvers don’t pay attention to Superiority ships . The project affection back at slugs and don’t notice non cytonic entities . Ai are immature delvers. The Superiority said Taynix are poisonous. That was propaganda to keep the secret .i think that Ai hatred is further propaganda . Ai are computers that connect to delvers and utilize the intelligence . That’s why M bots mind sped up in the room with the portal to nowhere.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

On 11/27/2019 at 10:28 AM, agrabes said:

Right, we know she would have been capable of doing it.  Just not sure if she actually did it.  There are cytonics in the Superiority that would be capable of FTL travel, but they aren't actually used for that purpose.  But if she did say that she "was" the ship's engine then that seems pretty concrete.

The reason the slugs are used instead of other Cytonics is the Delver themselves. Delvers mimic emotion shown to them . Humans and Superiority fear and hate the delvers . So the Delvers return that fear and hate . Taynix project affection at them . So the Delvers don’t really notice them . Now that Spensa herself has realized this , I’m sure she hyperjump and not be bothered by the Delvers.

[cfphelps]

5 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

The reason the slugs are used instead of other Cytonics is the Delver themselves. Delvers mimic emotion shown to them . Humans and Superiority fear and hate the delvers . So the Delvers return that fear and hate . Taynix project affection at them . So the Delvers don’t really notice them . Now that Spensa herself has realized this , I’m sure she hyperjump and not be bothered by the Delvers.

I don't think we have any evidence that the Taynix are projecting affection at them. They are still screaming which draws their attention away from everything else (except the times where one of them still focuses on Spensa in a way that makes her think she's done for). Screams are not typically affectionate. Plus that's also how Brade screams to try to draw a delver into the realm. When Spensa feels their emotions bleed into her own, they are still very negative about everything right up until she shows them their society. 

I do agree however that now that Spensa can show them her dimension isn't just annoying insects but an actual living society, perhaps she can project something less annoying to them that allows FTL travel without bothering them. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

50 minutes ago, cfphelps said:

I don't think we have any evidence that the Taynix are projecting affection at them. They are still screaming which draws their attention away from everything else (except the times where one of them still focuses on Spensa in a way that makes her think she's done for). Screams are not typically affectionate. Plus that's also how Brade screams to try to draw a delver into the realm. When Spensa feels their emotions bleed into her own, they are still very negative about everything right up until she shows them their society. 

I do agree however that now that Spensa can show them her dimension isn't just annoying insects but an actual living society, perhaps she can project something less annoying to them that allows FTL travel without bothering them. 

Perhaps I missed that . I didn’t think the Tania were screaming at Delvers , I thought they were screaming at Spensa Cytonic probes. Doomslug and the ones Jorgen found Flute at Spensa and Jorgen. I interpret the flute as affection . Perhaps that is a leap on my part but it’s a tiny one . Spensa herself said the Delver show hate mostly because they are picking that emotion up from the cytonic. While the Delvers don’t like radios and see that as buzzing they don’t really hate humans and did not understand thier presence was killing other life forms . From that I think they are curious . The Screaming Brade did piqued thier curiosity . If the Taynix always screamed would it not also pique a Delvers curiosity ? So why would it be safer? We haven’t seen Tanix produce hate. But we have seen them produce something that can be interpreted as affection or at least a positive response to stimuli from Spensa.

[cfphelps]

1 hour ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Perhaps I missed that . I didn’t think the Tania were screaming at Delvers , I thought they were screaming at Spensa Cytonic probes. Doomslug and the ones Jorgen found Flute at Spensa and Jorgen. I interpret the flute as affection . Perhaps that is a leap on my part but it’s a tiny one . Spensa herself said the Delver show hate mostly because they are picking that emotion up from the cytonic. While the Delvers don’t like radios and see that as buzzing they don’t really hate humans and did not understand thier presence was killing other life forms . From that I think they are curious . The Screaming Brade did piqued thier curiosity . If the Taynix always screamed would it not also pique a Delvers curiosity ? So why would it be safer? We haven’t seen Tanix produce hate. But we have seen them produce something that can be interpreted as affection or at least a positive response to stimuli from Spensa.

I guess I'm just saying that the only thing we know about what the slugs are doing during a jump is screaming, but we don't know why or what stimuli is prompting it, so I don't think we can say with certainly that they are broadcasting affection to the delvers yet, just that their screams seem to be distracting it. Spensa hears the screams when she listens but doesn't yet probe I'm pretty sure, so I didn't think she had anything to do with the screams. My interpretation was that they always scream to distract the delvers. 

The delver seems to have a realization that the annoying specs are people living lives when Spensa changes their perspective, so I don't think the Superiority or anyone else would know that they are reflecting emotions back. If they did, I think their delver contingency plan would be much different. We're all stuck in RAFO mode though, so I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I don't think we know enough to say it with the certainty you seemed to, yet. 

Edited December 1, 2019 by cfphelps

[agrabes]

On 11/30/2019 at 5:30 PM, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Perhaps I missed that . I didn’t think the Tania were screaming at Delvers , I thought they were screaming at Spensa Cytonic probes. Doomslug and the ones Jorgen found Flute at Spensa and Jorgen. I interpret the flute as affection . Perhaps that is a leap on my part but it’s a tiny one . Spensa herself said the Delver show hate mostly because they are picking that emotion up from the cytonic. While the Delvers don’t like radios and see that as buzzing they don’t really hate humans and did not understand thier presence was killing other life forms . From that I think they are curious . The Screaming Brade did piqued thier curiosity . If the Taynix always screamed would it not also pique a Delvers curiosity ? So why would it be safer? We haven’t seen Tanix produce hate. But we have seen them produce something that can be interpreted as affection or at least a positive response to stimuli from Spensa.

I do like your idea (that the Delvers only attack due to sensing negative emotions) but I'm not sure it has any supporting evidence.  Especially with the slugs.  The only thing we know about the slugs and their ability to jump is that when they do it in the Superiority ships, they scream so that every cytonic can hear it.  They don't do it when they are just jumping around on their own.  They do scream when Spensa probes out to them cytonically, but they also scream when she doesn't probe to them.  My guess is that the Superiority does something bad to the slugs to make them jump - hence the screams.

I get the sense that the reason the slugs are safe while humans are not is that the delvers start to hone in on someone or something that jumps too often.  You see the one start to take particular notice of Spensa more and more the more often she jumps.  So one possibility may be that the slugs are cycled out quickly.  They only do one or two jumps before they are replaced.  That doesn't totally make sense because MBot has only one slug.  It also is contradicted by the fact that the slugs jump all the time on their own.

I do think that the delvers do react to some extent to negative emotion.  Or, it may be that when they see a more complex consciousness they see it as sort of a leader of the insects and prioritize it to be eliminated while they ignore the simple slugs.  Who knows, it's a good thought though.  And it might turn out to be right, or at least partially right.

[Stark]

For me, I was speculating on the Sanderson origins of the species he showed us.  The Katsen having historically been on Earth and having a samurai style monarchy mad me think they came from the Japanese Kitsune, only in the book they were likely the origin of the Kitsune myth.  The Figments seem like an inversed fart joke - silent but deadly. They are silent, but Vapor is put out that they are assumed to be assassins, and their curses involve bad smells. The Gorrilla like species we see a few times feels Planet of the Apes to me.  Anyone else get anything off the different species presented in the background?