What happens at Fifth Ideal?

[Master Silver]

WAR BREAKER Minor Spoilers

 

So I just finished listening to War Breaker, at the fifth heightening the gods become functional immortals, immune to aging so long as they keep their divine breath. Others have said that perhaps Radiants of the fifth ideal don't leak storm-light. If that is the case, then perhaps so long as they retain some storm-light in their bodies they also don't age. By the time Kaladin has been of the third ideal for awhile he also seems to have a little storm-light in his system. It seems like each magic system has functional immortals. In the mistborn series it is those that have a combination of allomancy and whatever keepers are (I forget the term). In War Breaker, it is anyone who reaches the fifth heightening. In Stormlight Archives it would be symmetrical if it was those of the fifth ideal, of course it seems like immortality revolves somewhat around being a cognitive shadow, so perhaps a combination of those two. 

[Gderu]

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

WAR BREAKER Minor Spoilers

 

So I just finished listening to War Breaker, at the fifth heightening the gods become functional immortals, immune to aging so long as they keep their divine breath. Others have said that perhaps Radiants of the fifth ideal don't leak storm-light. If that is the case, then perhaps so long as they retain some storm-light in their bodies they also don't age. By the time Kaladin has been of the third ideal for awhile he also seems to have a little storm-light in his system. It seems like each magic system has functional immortals. In the mistborn series it is those that have a combination of allomancy and whatever keepers are (I forget the term). In War Breaker, it is anyone who reaches the fifth heightening. In Stormlight Archives it would be symmetrical if it was those of the fifth ideal, of course it seems like immortality revolves somewhat around being a cognitive shadow, so perhaps a combination of those two. 

Unfortunately that is not possible. Brandon has confirmed that radiants don't live forever.

[Master Silver]

I'd love the Words of Brandon is it, on that. And being immortal like the Returned (which is what I am saying) is very different than being like the heralds or the void bringers. The returned could die, much like the Lord Ruler could die. All you have to do is injure them enough or take away their investiture, but as long as they are burning it (like the Lord Ruler) or retain their divine breath, they won't succumb to old age. 

[SirNoSell]

Just gonna spitball this one but does anyone remember the creature that was with Nale when he hunted Lift. The creature has the ability to extract stormlight from her. so that got me thinking. What if at the fifth ideal was some sort of familiar-like creature.

I mean an order that's dedicated to upholding law, especially in the organisation of the KR would definitely benefit from a method that would forcefully extract stormlight from a target.

[Gderu]

16 hours ago, Master Silver said:

I'd love the Words of Brandon is it, on that. And being immortal like the Returned (which is what I am saying) is very different than being like the heralds or the void bringers. The returned could die, much like the Lord Ruler could die. All you have to do is injure them enough or take away their investiture, but as long as they are burning it (like the Lord Ruler) or retain their divine breath, they won't succumb to old age. 

https://amp.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/5dpic4/oathbringer_spoilers_stormlight_three_update_5/dak70et/?context=3

[Lord Blackadder]

6 hours ago, BrightLordSwageas said:

Just gonna spitball this one but does anyone remember the creature that was with Nale when he hunted Lift. The creature has the ability to extract stormlight from her. so that got me thinking. What if at the fifth ideal was some sort of familiar-like creature.

I mean an order that's dedicated to upholding law, especially in the organisation of the KR would definitely benefit from a method that would forcefully extract stormlight from a target.

The Larkin he had was used to suck storm light away from Lift to keep her from using it.  Rysn has one too and it was used in the battle of Thaylen.  I think Nales use in this case was specific to the job rather than a pet or familiar he keeps.  

[Master Silver]

1 hour ago, Gderu said:

https://amp.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/5dpic4/oathbringer_spoilers_stormlight_three_update_5/dak70et/?context=3

I guess I will have to believe you couldn't find where in the ginormous thread it was

[aneonfoxtribute]

1 hour ago, Lord Blackadder said:

The Larkin he had was used to suck storm light away from Lift to keep her from using it.  Rysn has one too and it was used in the battle of Thaylen.  I think Nales use in this case was specific to the job rather than a pet or familiar he keeps.  

Not to mention getting a familiar would be redundant since that is kinda what the spren is

[Gderu]

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

I guess I will have to believe you couldn't find where in the ginormous thread it was

What? No. The link leads to a post, in which a commenter asks something and Brandon replies to him. It is the first comment you'll see.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Gderu

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Master Silver said:

I guess I will have to believe you couldn't find where in the ginormous thread it was

Iceblade44

So White Sand [then Elantris] is earlier... Then how the heck old is Khriss then? Will we ever get an answer as to why every worldhopper is flippin' immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

There is some time-dilation going on. I'll explain it eventually; we're almost to the point where I can start talking about that. Suffice it to say that there's a mix of both actual slowing of the aging process and relative time going on, depending on the individual. Very few are actually immortal.

Faera

Implying that some are actually immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on which definition of immortal you mean.

Doesn't age, but can be killed by conventional means. (You've seen some of these in the cosmere, but I'll leave you to discuss who.)

Heals from wounds, but still ages. (Knights Radiant with Stormlight are like this.)

Reborn when killed. (The Heralds.)

Doesn't age and can heal, but dependent upon magic to stay this way, and so have distinct weakness to be exploited. (The Lord Ruler, among others.)

Hive beings who are constantly losing individual members, but maintaining a persistent personality spread across all of them, immortal in that as long as too much of the hive isn't wiped out, the personality can persist. (The Sleepless.)

Bits of sapient magic, eternal and endless, though the personality can be "destroyed" in specific ways. (Seons. Spren. Nightblood. Cognitive Shadows, like a certain character from Scadrial.)

Shards (Really just a supercharged version of the previous category.)

And then, of course, there's Hoid. I'm not going to say which category, if any, he's in.

Some of these blend together--the Heralds, for example, are technically a variety of Cognitive Shadow. I'm not saying each of these categories above are distinct, intended to be the end-all definitions. They're off the cuff groupings I made to explain a point: immortality is a theme of the cosmere works--which, at their core, are experiments on what happens when men are given the power of deity.

Shagomir

Heals from wounds, but still ages.

Would Bloodmaker Ferrings exist in this category as well? If not, what about someone Compounding Gold?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you are correct.

Shagomir

As a Bloodmaker ages, what keeps them from healing the damage and carrying on as a very old, but very healthy person? Do they come to a point where they can't store enough health to stave off the aches, pains, diseases, and other things that come with old age?

This makes sense for traditional Feruchemy as it is end-neutral, so storing health becomes a zero sum game - eventually, you're going to get sick and you're not going to be able to overcome it with your natural healing ability no matter how much you manipulate it with a goldmind.

...Unless you've got a supply of Identity-less goldminds lying around. Would a Bloodmaker with a sufficient source of Identity-less goldminds (or the ability to compound, thus bypassing the end-neutral part of Feruchemy) eventually just die from being too old?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, yes. They can heal their body to match their spiritual ideal, but some things (like some genetic diseases, and age-related illnesses) are seen as part of the ideal. Depends on several factors.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 29, 2016)

[Master Silver]

Very helpful, well that shoots my theory dead. At least the part about non-leaking stormlight (in sufficient quantities acting like divine breath). Thanks for going through the trouble of looking that up for me. Cheers

[Master Silver]

@Gderu totally missed it. But you were right. I don't want Kaladin to die though lol

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

Very helpful, well that shoots my theory dead. At least the part about non-leaking stormlight (in sufficient quantities acting like divine breath). Thanks for going through the trouble of looking that up for me. Cheers

No problem. Sorry about your theory. If it helps, it has been confirmed the further you progress, the greater your stormlight efficiency is:

 

Zykai (paraphrased)

Squires and people wielding Honorblades use more Stormlight than a regular Radiant. Who uses more?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The further you progress, the more efficient you become at consuming Stormlight. They're never as efficient as the Voidbringers, since humans leak too much.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)