What happens at Fifth Ideal?

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Problem: Shallan.  As far as we know, there's nothing special about her as a Radiant, like with Lift, but she had her Shardblade after just the First ideal, and is currently on her fourth without having any Plate.  This has led to the speculation that each order, along with having different ideals, also earn their blades/plate after different oaths.  If Shallan is a typical Lightweaver, then that would mean Lightweavers get their blades immediately, but their plate last.  

Shallan is an unreliable narrator who has weird stuff going on.  I would say she was at the third ideal when she got her blade and we don't really know what ideal she currently is on actually.  @Pathfinder points out that Radiant has shardplate in theylen field.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

4rth to get their plate

4th gemstone archive.  Bondsmiths don't get blades according to the Stormfather.

2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

And are there any Skybreakers alive who have sworn the forth oath and succeeded on their quest

4th also.  They just have not been publicly using their plate.  (Szeth asks about the oaths).

[Aon Tia]

I don’t think we should look to Shallan for any trends amongst the lightweavers because she is a weird case. She had reached third truth level in her childhood level, it appears, and had recessed later. Therefore, I think although she is needed to redo the truths but she has access to blade and may be plate at a lower level.

 

[Tglassy]

The problem is we can't just say "Well, that person's weird, so we're not going to count them", when they're literally the only one of their kind we've seen.  As far as we know, they're all weird, and every individual Radiant is different, except for Wind Runners and Sky Breakers, who all seem to follow the same progression.  Although, we still don't have confirmation that Szeth can even summon a Shardblade yet, even though he's sworn the 4th ideal (just not completed it, yet), because he's got Nightblood.  There's also a WOB that says that Shallan is one oath ahead of Kaladin, which matches up if she swore the first ideal a long time ago, and the second was "I'm terrified," the third was "I killed my father," and the fourth was "I killed my mother."  (I still think the fifth will be "I am Shallan").  

 

And just look at the power level differences.  Dalinar has more power at the third ideal than any radiant ever!  He can literally charge people with stormlight, without needing the Stormfather to do it.  He can create Honor's Perpendicularity.  And he's only on Rank 3!  

 

So he's weird.  Fine. And Shallan is weird.  Ok.  And we all know there's something goin on with Renarin.  And Venly is a Listener who's also radiant, apparently.  And Kaladin can control the winds, which shocked Syl.  And I think Adolin will revive Maya.  And Lift can metabolize Stormlight and is partially in the Cognitive Realm.  And...

 

See what I mean?  They're all weird.  They're all different.  We have no real baseline to say "Oh, they obviously all get their blades on third and plate on fourth", because we have at least one Radiant who is on her Fourth Ideal, as per Brandon, and she has no Plate, as pointed out to by Jasnah.  And if Jasnah had plate, she'd likely have used it during the battle at the end of Oathbringer.  

[NameIess]

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said that at one point Shallan may have said all the oaths for her order (or may have been capable of saying all of the oaths by the end of the book) but has since regressed due to "memory loss/repression."

 

Questioner

Do you have to have done the third oath before you can convert your spren into a Blade?

Brandon Sanderson

In most orders, yes.

Questioner

What about Shallan then? Did she do it, cause she was a kid when she first--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, um... you will find out more

Shallan had sworn or could have sworn all of the oaths during her childhood, but lost them due to her repression of her memories, and is now re-swearing them, I believe this is why she is considered "weird" @Tglassy, she is weird with her oaths, not with powers, what the others are saying is that she swore all of her oaths, giving her access to her shardblade, but then regressed, meaning we don't know whether the shardblade is only because of her regressed oaths, or Lightweavers get their blades immediately.

[Master Silver]

SOME MISTBORN SPOILERS (sort of)

So I have been thinking about that too. What if by swearing the fifth ideal you become a cognitive shadow of sorts (immortal, but with a body). So for Skybreakers in the fifth ideal they become they Law, sounds in someways how Kelsiear (became hope for the Ska). Also, if knights as they progress become better vessel for stormlight at what point would they become a silver? I think it is fair to say that the heralds already hold enough to be considered that. I'd put Heralds at the level of Vyn when she was drawing upon the mists or around the Lord Ruler, although it is hard to compare different magic systems. Syl gives us info on what spren really are, bits of power made manifest. As far as we know Spren cannot truly die, so upon swearing the fifth ideal, so long as the knight stays true to their oaths, they cannot die (at least not from old age). This leads me to speculate that the knights that we saw at Feverstone Keep were the very first Knights Radiant. Ancient Knights, they were the first. And because getting to the fifth ideal is so hard that those who make it had never broken their oaths. So when they all do it at once it shakes the knights radiants to their core. We get the first dead eyes (shard blades and plate), the orders of the knights radiant are left without leadership (and they also lose 100's upon hundreds of years of experience). I would also like to point out that immortality for the 5th ideal makes a perfect counter balance against the fused who are immortal (and their seem to be hundred's of them. You have high princes (the heralds) and then other high ranking light eyes.. What do you think? 

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Master Silver said:

What do you think? 

Welcome to the shard. 

Where are these immortals?  There should be some in the Skybreaker camp at least.

[Master Silver]

Thanks for the welcome. I've been reading the forums and it just seemed like a good time to join. So that answer is easy for 9 of the orders. They died during the Recreance. There should be some in the Skybreaker camp. I only have audio books, so I can't be certain of the quote. But when Szeth-son-son-Vallano is asking about the ideas they say it has been hundreds of years since someone has achieved the 5th idea. I don't believe they said the order currently has none, only it has been centuries since someone has sworn that idea. And it is possible that Nale killed the original skybreakers with the 5th ideal. He is crazy. I'm not sayign they can't be killed, but that they no longer die of old age. Essentially, whatever it takes to kill a herald is what it takes to kill them. They could also be deployed watching over the other nations, leaving training to knights of the 4th ideal

[+asmodeus]

On 11/26/2019 at 3:30 PM, Tglassy said:

We have no real baseline to say "Oh, they obviously all get their blades on third and plate on fourth", because we have at least one Radiant who is on her Fourth Ideal, as per Brandon, and she has no Plate, as pointed out to by Jasnah.  And if Jasnah had plate, she'd likely have used it during the battle at the end of Oathbringer.  

Pretty cool write-up, and I largely agree. Almost everyone's unique in some way or another.

My only addition is this - there's hints that Shallan does have Plate, she's just suppressing it like she did with her Shardblade. The writerly reason is probably because Brandon didn't want to show us too much too quickly, and it's possible that he has some really cool moment planned for her first on-screen summoning of Plate.

Here's where we get the hint, from OB Chap.15, Brightness Radiant:

Spoiler

What about Plate? Do you have that hidden somewhere too?”

“Not that I know of,” she said. Her heart was beating quickly, her skin growing cold, her muscles tense. She fought against the sensation. “I don’t know where Plate comes from.”

Edited February 4, 2020 by asmodeus

[Quantus]

11 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Thanks for the welcome. I've been reading the forums and it just seemed like a good time to join. So that answer is easy for 9 of the orders. They died during the Recreance. There should be some in the Skybreaker camp. I only have audio books, so I can't be certain of the quote. But when Szeth-son-son-Vallano is asking about the ideas they say it has been hundreds of years since someone has achieved the 5th idea. I don't believe they said the order currently has none, only it has been centuries since someone has sworn that idea. And it is possible that Nale killed the original skybreakers with the 5th ideal. He is crazy. I'm not sayign they can't be killed, but that they no longer die of old age. Essentially, whatever it takes to kill a herald is what it takes to kill them. They could also be deployed watching over the other nations, leaving training to knights of the 4th ideal

At the time they were speaking specifically about the Skybreakers as an organization.  Granted they are the only Order that has survived since the Recreance, so it might still be technically accurate, but they dont have any way to know for sure one way or the other.  Granted they've been hunting them for a while now so they have at least been trying to keep an eye out.  Master Ki said there hadnt been a Skybreaker to reach the 5th in centuries, but that would still been relatively recent compared to how long Nale has been running them covertly, so I highly Doubt he he's been killing the competition since Szeth went to the "other side" and he's still planning to train him.  I suspect he simply outlives them all, and they operate with at least slightly more autonomy while they are around (a separate, but probably not a "rival" faction).    

 

 

To the OP, the only aside from the general Scale of getting more efficient with Stormlight as you progress, the only specific effect of the 5th Ideal we have confirmed is that whatever process the Spren know to forcibly sever the Bond between spren and Radiant will not work once they've sworn the 5th.  I think that means they have finished the merging process and have solidified as a two-part combination Being.  No Idea what other implications that may have, though Im curious if the Spren can still freely Choose to end the Bond or if they are more locked in at that point.  

Edited February 3, 2020 by Quantus

[Kramerfarve]

46 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I think that means they have finished the merging process and have solidified as a two-part combination Being.  No Idea what other implications that may have, though Im curious if the Spren can still freely Choose to end the Bond or if they are more locked in at that point.

You might have a chicken/egg thing going on here, if a radiant pair reaches the fifth, and they are merged completely by the bond, both have been changed enough by the bond that I doubt there would be a difference in opinion between the radiant and their spren. At that point they would think about things in the same ways, and maybe it’s that there would be no need to forcibly end a bond, because either both would recognize the need to separate or both wouldn’t want to. If it got to the point that the two had that large of a gap in thought processes that the spren felt the need to leave, the radiant probably would’ve regressed in oaths.

[Quantus]

7 minutes ago, Kramerfarve said:

You might have a chicken/egg thing going on here, if a radiant pair reaches the fifth, and they are merged completely by the bond, both have been changed enough by the bond that I doubt there would be a difference in opinion between the radiant and their spren. At that point they would think about things in the same ways, and maybe it’s that there would be no need to forcibly end a bond, because either both would recognize the need to separate or both wouldn’t want to. If it got to the point that the two had that large of a gap in thought processes that the spren felt the need to leave, the radiant probably would’ve regressed in oaths.

Oh god I hope not.  That sounds way too much like one or the other loosing their own Self entirely and being subsumed into the other.  Also, I dont know if that's entirely possible: spren will often think in fundamentally Alien ways (varying by breed) and I dont think their natures could shift so much that they'd be guaranteed to agree with everything their Radiant thinks and does.  Dalinar is not going to be able to shift the Stormfather's way of thinking to full Human without impacting the Storm itself.  Not to mention the catch-22 that if they always agree then they will always agree on any rationalization of their Ideals, regardless of how perverted they might become, circumventing the checks&balances that the Ideals are supposed to offer (making it more like the Honorblades that the Spren fear so much). 

Now, as a test case, we know it is possible to Steal the Bind with Hemalurgy, with the cited limitation being that the Spren could still freely end the Bond.  If the theory is accurate, they might not still be able to do so if the Bond stolen had reached the 5th.  

Edited February 3, 2020 by Quantus

[Kramerfarve]

Just now, Quantus said:

Oh god I hope not.  That sounds way too much like one or the other loosing their own Self entirely and being subsumed into the other.  

Now, as a test case, we know it is possible to Steal the Bind with Hemalurgy, with the cited limitation being that the Spren could still freely end the Bond.  If the theory is accurate, they might not still be able to do so if the Bond stolen had reached the 5th.  

Why would it have to be one or the other? I believe both are influenced heavily during the bond process by the other. The human learns knowledge of the immortal, and the spren learns knowledge of the mortal. They can reach the same end product through two completely different lines of reasoning, so long as they value the same things in the same ways at the end of the day.

Thats an interesting thought on hemalurgy, I hadn’t given it much thought. I think in attempting it, you might just kill both, or at least harm the spren greatly.

[Quantus]

17 minutes ago, Kramerfarve said:

Thats an interesting thought on hemalurgy, I hadn’t given it much thought. I think in attempting it, you might just kill both, or at least harm the spren greatly.

hehe, that was guaranteed as soon as hemalurgy got involved, by definition.  But your point is valid, Hemalurgy takes Knowledge, so for this they need magic shenanigans or lots and lots of bloody experimentation.

[Gderu]

I have a mini theory that maybe at fifth ideal the radiants can get stormlight without any source. Idk why, it seems like a possibility to me, and a very useful power.

[Quantus]

14 minutes ago, Gderu said:

I have a mini theory that maybe at fifth ideal the radiants can get stormlight without any source. Idk why, it seems like a possibility to me, and a very useful power.

Interesting thought.  I doubt it, but only because this was mentioned as a specific power of the Heralds that went away when Honor Died.  And we've seen that even the native shadesmar spren dont have that sort of Connection to Honor, they still get renewed by the passing Storm/Perpendicularity, so I dont see it would form entirely as part of the 5th without something to build on.  

Relates Question:  Have there been any mention of Nale keeping gems for Stormlight in all his various travels?  He's the only 5th Ideal on stage so far. 

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Interesting thought.  I doubt it, but only because this was mentioned as a specific power of the Heralds that went away when Honor Died.  And we've seen that even the native shadesmar spren dont have that sort of Connection to Honor, they still get renewed by the passing Storm/Perpendicularity, so I dont see it would form entirely as part of the 5th without something to build on.  

Perhaps if the Radiant's connection to Honor was strong enough, they would draw power from wherever Honor's remaining investiture is, to create a micro-perpendicularity.

[MattIsTyping]

It seems pretty clear to me that the Ideals aren't as fast and simple as a video game level-up. It's important to think about what's going on here from thematic and character perspectives.

The Nahel bond is the combination of the influence of two different Shards, Honor and Cultivation, and reflects their specific intents. Honor is all about binding oaths, while Cultivation is the Shard of curated growth. We've seen their limitations highlighted before - some have said that Honor was more concerned about oaths being made and kept regardless of the substance of those oaths, while a similar criticism of Cultivation is that she seems to prioritize growth and abundance for their own sake. Combined together, however, their influence involves empowering mortals who make and keep oaths, which are in turn formulated specifically to facilitate their emotional and spiritual growth.

Nale is a pretty perfect example of the point I'm striving at, here - he has apparently progressed sufficiently through the Ideals to have ascended to the Fifth Ideal, but that hasn't prevented him from spearheading a pretty horrific and monstrous agenda. His killing of countless nascent surgebinders apparently doesn't conflict with his oaths (including the most foundational "life before death" of the First Ideal), because the Skybreakers interpret that oath so very, very differently from, say, our Windrunners.

The various Orders diverge pretty dramatically beyond the First Ideal, and even differ greatly in terms of which actions they intuit as following naturally from the shared First Ideal. The different Orders bond with different kinds of spren, gain different surgebinding abilities, and swear different oaths after the first. We also have pretty stark evidence that even within the same order, the oaths can take slightly different forms depending on the personal interpretation and the spiritual needs of the individual swearing them - see how Teft's version of the Windrunner oaths differ from Kaladin's. Kaladin wasn't even aware of the specific wording of the First Ideal until he had progressed very nearly to the Second Ideal of the Windrunners, but that didn't slow his progress, because he had already sworn himself to a code of behavior that aligned with those ideals.

All this is to point out that all the evidence suggests a huge amount of variance between different orders and even individuals as they progress through the Nahel bond. WoB confirms that different Orders gain access to different surges and benefits of the bond at different points during their journey. It seems pretty obvious that the Windrunner path involves a Shardblade at the Third ideal and plate at the Fourth, but Shallan obviously got access to a Shardblade much earlier and it's very possible that Dalinar won't ever gain access to a Shardblade simply because of the specific personality of the Stormfather that he has bonded with.

While it's probably true that some kind of increase in power is going to be associated with ascending to the Fifth Ideal, I very much suspect that what happens at that point is going to vary pretty widely across orders and maybe even based on individual needs within the same order.

[Zapata]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Relates Question:  Have there been any mention of Nale keeping gems for Stormlight in all his various travels?  He's the only 5th Ideal on stage so far. 

I found this in the Coppermind entry for Nale: 

Quote

Apart from his powers as a Herald, Nale has formed a Nahel bond with a highspren, making him a Skybreaker. He's the only Skybreaker in centuries to have reached the Fifth Ideal, and has access to a living Shardblade, giving him two Blades in total. It's unknown if his double bond -- with the Honorblade and the spren -- enhances his Surgebinding abilities in any way. However, he does have some sort of "hack" that lets him acquire Stormlight where others cannot, though it might be due to his nature as a Herald.

While he has the power, until the True Desolation, he seems to avoid using it in the presence of others, likely to keep a low profile.

Therefore, he can make or summon Stormlight, however that might be his Herald power. 

[Bigmikey357]

Nale is a Herald and therefore has a direct connection to Investiture.  He has no need for gems to recharge him.

10 hours ago, MattIsTyping said:

 

While it's probably true that some kind of increase in power is going to be associated with ascending to the Fifth Ideal, I very much suspect that what happens at that point is going to vary pretty widely across orders and maybe even based on individual needs within the same order.

As for 5th Ideal benefits, I believe those are universal even though the path to get there is largely individual.  Meaning that anyone reaching their ultimate Oath in their Order will get the same powers. The journey will be different but the destination is the same. And of course some people will still be more capable than others, more easily use their surges,  ect. But there must be some baseline or there's no point in having a system with levels at all.

I've said this before but I believe 5th Ideal comes with a soul merge between man and Spren. With a soul merge comes trade. A Physical being gets Cognitive privilege and a Cognitive being gets Physical privilege.  Syl manifests as a fully grown woman when Kaladin bumps up to both second and Third ideals. With the 5th Oath she could do that at will. She doesn't have to be a Shardblade in the Physical and she'll be able to touch things as a human would. And she'd have full thinking capacity. Kal gets a full view screen into the Cognitive Realm to include how his surges look on the other side. His perspective widens and he gains a baseline level of mastery in his surges, he's more fuel efficient and less leaky. 

The problem I see with this is that it's probably going to feel like a letdown.  It's not flashy like when you get a blade or manifest plate. Unless the jump in power from 4th to 5th is incredibly drastic and dramatic it's gonna be hard to not be disappointed by the journey.  Also,  how much more powerful are they really going to get?  Dalinar at 3 is super charging people and dropping perpendicularities.  Dalinar at 5 improves on that skill a little? 

Anyway, while I think I'm right about what comes with 5th Ideal Radiancy I would not be surprised if they got something more than that. I know it won't be perfect storage,  that's been killed by WOB. It's not a direct plug in, that's the Heralds deal. Maybe it's consistent access to the Spiritual side of the Surges or bleed over to different capabilities.  I guess we'll see.

[Quantus]

 

14 hours ago, Llstml said:

Perhaps if the Radiant's connection to Honor was strong enough, they would draw power from wherever Honor's remaining investiture is, to create a micro-perpendicularity.

Yup, pretty sure we saw precisely that at the end of OB

 

13 hours ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

I found this in the Coppermind entry for Nale: 

Therefore, he can make or summon Stormlight, however that might be his Herald power. 

Eh, this community is the one that maintains the Coppermind and at the end of the Dya it's still a Wiki, so while valuable we cant really take it as surface level Gospel.  We know for a fact that "there was a Point" Heralds were powered directly by Honor, that is was similar to how Preservation directly Powered Vin with the Mists, and that the Honorblades where the part of the Equation that gave them direct Access to Honor's Essence.  However, it is also true that in every mention of hte Heralds being directly powered, it's in the Past Tense.  Which puts me back to the same Question: Have we seen Nale draw Stormlight without Gems present, or conversely have we seen him carrying Gems or otherwise actinig as if he needs to have a store of Stormlight?

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Nale is a Herald and therefore has a direct connection to Investiture.  He has no need for gems to recharge him.

Had.  "Has" is still unknown, that's what we are talking about.  The Heralds were previously powered by Honor directly, but there is no more Honor to perform that.  There is WOB that he did it similar to how Preservation was able to directly Power Vin with the MIst, which we know required the Shards conscious intervention.  

[Zapata]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

 

Which puts me back to the same Question: Have we seen Nale draw Stormlight without Gems present, or conversely have we seen him carrying Gems or otherwise actinig as if he needs to have a store of Stormlight?

I don't have the book on me at the moment, but I think in Edgedancer he Invests himself after ensuring that there were no infused gemstones around him or Lift. So either Honorblade users/5 Ideal Radiants have a greater infusion range, or he summoned Stormlight like a Herald of old.

[Quantus]

8 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

I don't have the book on me at the moment, but I think in Edgedancer he Invests himself after ensuring that there were no infused gemstones around him or Lift. So either Honorblade users/5 Ideal Radiants have a greater infusion range, or he summoned Stormlight like a Herald of old.

Hmm, Good idea.  I dont have it with me either, but it shouldnt take too long to check when I get home.  

[Bigmikey357]

12 hours ago, Quantus said:

 

Yup, pretty sure we saw precisely that at the end of OB

 

Eh, this community is the one that maintains the Coppermind and at the end of the Dya it's still a Wiki, so while valuable we cant really take it as surface level Gospel.  We know for a fact that "there was a Point" Heralds were powered directly by Honor, that is was similar to how Preservation directly Powered Vin with the Mists, and that the Honorblades where the part of the Equation that gave them direct Access to Honor's Essence.  However, it is also true that in every mention of hte Heralds being directly powered, it's in the Past Tense.  Which puts me back to the same Question: Have we seen Nale draw Stormlight without Gems present, or conversely have we seen him carrying Gems or otherwise actinig as if he needs to have a store of Stormlight?

Had.  "Has" is still unknown, that's what we are talking about.  The Heralds were previously powered by Honor directly, but there is no more Honor to perform that.  There is WOB that he did it similar to how Preservation was able to directly Power Vin with the MIst, which we know required the Shards conscious intervention.  

The Oathpact is not broken despite Honor's Shattering and 9 of 10 Heralds attempting to abandon it. Nale has his Honorblade.  It's my belief that the Heralds are still directly powered by Honor, or at least the remnants of his power.  They likely don't get the wattage they used to but in a world with few Radiants and not quite dominated by Fused they don't need all that much to be awesome.  Of course we don't have proof of this but until we know otherwise that's what I believe.  YMMV of course. 

[Master Silver]

You know I've always wondered if the Heralds not going back to Baraz (Damnation) is what caused their insanity or perhaps their not directly drawing upon investiture from honor is what caused it.  But either way it seems that the new Radiants are stronger than they were without Honor their to regulate their powers (we still aren't exactly sure what that means). I'm certain I've seen the phrase, "dangerous levels of investiture," but is that because it turns them into a sliver (like Rashik)? But I digress. What I'm getting at is that before their fall even Knights Radiants of the fifth ideal were seemingly not as powerful as the Heralds (even if they are more efficient). Side note, what does it take to become a cognitive shadow, and how similar/ different from a 5th ideal radiant is Kelsiar (magic systems aside). For Sky Breakers they become the embodiment of the Law. Syl talks a little bit about the nature of spren and how they take shape/feed off of human ideals. With each ideal I think we can all agree the radiant becomes harder to kill, (outside of the radiant, I don't think spren become easier to kill). So what would you call a cognitive shadow with a physical body? Sorry for the jumble of thoughts

[Pathfinder]

On 2/4/2020 at 11:26 AM, Bearer of Agonies said:

I don't have the book on me at the moment, but I think in Edgedancer he Invests himself after ensuring that there were no infused gemstones around him or Lift. So either Honorblade users/5 Ideal Radiants have a greater infusion range, or he summoned Stormlight like a Herald of old.

Do you mean the scene where Nale and Lift are at Stump's orphanage for the climatic battle?