Knight of Iron

What happens at Fifth Ideal?

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I've been thinking a lot lately about what one might get at the Fifth Ideal. I am drawn to an excerpt from the following epigraph from Words of Radiance:

"...for though the bond between man and spren was at times inexplicable, the ability for bonded spren to manifest in our world rather than their own grew stronger through the course of the oaths given." Words of Radiance, chapter 35, page 9.

So the ability for spren to manifest in the Physical Realm grows stronger the more oaths that are given. I suspect this is why after the Third Ideal, spren can become Shardblades/spears/forks. Another epigraph mentions achieving the Fourth Ideal in association with "earning my armor," and there is obviously some mystery still around that. But what of the Fifth Ideal? If the Third is some sort of weapon, and assuming the Fourth is some armor, then what could the Fifth be? I welcome theories.

The only theory I have is that the Fifth Ideal could be a Dawnshard (...whatever that is). It would make sense, then, with how Surges and Dawnshards are related with the destruction of... you know. Just an idea, if you have evidence to the contrary, please share. Also if I'm blatantly on the wrong track with any of this here, also please share.

Edited by Knight of Iron
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The dawnshards I'm pretty sure are something completely different. We also know that there is a set number of dawnshard by WOB. Therefore, with a constant influx and changing amount of Knights swearing the fifth ideal, it wouldn't really fit for a dawnshard to be the gain. 

Stormlightning

Is there a set number of them[Dawnshards]?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Stormlightning

Are you willing to say?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Stormlightning

Are you willing to say if they originated in the Rosharan system?

Brandon Sanderson

I am not willing to say.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 7, 2018)

 

 

We do know that Nale has sworn the Fifth Ideal of the Skybreakers, his version "I am law". And while we haven't seen too much Nale screen time, we also didn't see him with any type of new weapon or anything like that, we know that he has his own honorblade that he took back. As of now, I think that the 5th ideal is really just becoming more efficient and capable with stormlight usage. We know that Nale is one of very few Skybreakers to swear the fifth ideal in centuries I believe, if there was some kind of extreme powerup with the 5th ideal I would assume more people would choose to pursue it, but many don't and are content with where they are in the ranking. 

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I think the Fifth ideal will be more about mastering the combination between the surges of the given order. We know that some of the powers in surge binding are native to a single surge, while others are a combination of the two. I think that's what would get stronger. 

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1 hour ago, danox46 said:

I think the Fifth ideal will be more about mastering the combination between the surges of the given order. We know that some of the powers in surge binding are native to a single surge, while others are a combination of the two. I think that's what would get stronger. 

Perhaps specifically the Resonance (like windrunner Squires or Lightweaver memory) becomes most potent and effective at the 5th heightening, then.

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I think they got a massive increase in the raw levels of power and efficiency in using the surges.. They probably understand their surges completely instinctively once they reach the 5th ideal, and they begin combining their two surges.. 

I had always thought that ... well, there are references of knights had the trifecta- blade, plate and horse(Ryshadium)..

and since 3rd oath gives them blade, 4th gives plate so may be 5th gives them a Ryshadium to bond....

Nale might have one but he never summons it because he can fly.. 

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Maybe Stormlight storage efficiency. We do not see Nale needing to inhale Stormlight during his fights, though that might be because of his Honorblade. Either way the Bond should be more complete by the Fifth Ideal, with the Radiant's cracks in the Spiritweb sealed by their bonded spren. It makes sense that there would be an expression of this completion. Like every other level of Ideals spoken, this too should increase their access to their Surges. If there are any effects other than this, we haven't been seen them yet.

Edited by Honorless
their>there
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2 hours ago, The traveller said:

I had always thought that ... well, there are references of knights had the trifecta- blade, plate and horse(Ryshadium)..

and since 3rd oath gives them blade, 4th gives plate so may be 5th gives them a Ryshadium to bond....

Nale might have one but he never summons it because he can fly.. 

Great. Now I have the image in my head of Nale fighting Szeth in the sky, Szeth draws Nightblood, then suddenly, a horse appears out of nowhere, and Nale is riding it.

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2 hours ago, The traveller said:

5th gives them a Ryshadium to bond

I kind of doubt this. How would the Fifth Oath make a horse bond with spren? That's what the Ryshadium are, just bonded horses. I think they're just natural adaptations from the horses, not connected to the Radiants.

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I think they are connected to radiants..I remember reading that knights rode Ryshadium.. although I am not sure m.. I think Dalinar mentions it somewhere.. I will try to find it..
 

ok found it.. Jenet says in the chapter “monster” in wor:

Quote

Radiants had ryshadium whereas Kings did not get access to ordinary horses even..

 

The one I found is Adolin in oathbringer saying that Ryshadium are called the third shard, blade, plate and mount.. 

I guess I took to mean that they are linked but it could be an Alethi thing too.. 

 

Edited by The traveller
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I can't really think of anything to disprove that. When Kriss talks about the Ryshadium bond she regards it as something separate. I think it's more likely that the Ryshadium bond is more like the Chasmfiend. Their relationship with the Radiants could be something simpler. Horses got to Roshar with men. They chose their raiders, and back then the most qualified partners where the radiance. 

It's a little odd that we don't see them on the vision of the Recreance. Any theories as to why?

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Yes and I don’t know why exactly would radiants need mounts anyway but they had Ryshadium that much is said in the text.. and if they did require mounts then Ryshadium were ideal.. 

May be a fifth level radiant was deemed worthy automatically by Ryshadium..

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I don't really see the Ryshadium theory (nor the need of such a bond for the Radiant, esp. Windrunners, Skybreakers and Edgedancers) but for the sake of Kaladin "horses are monsters!" Stormblessed being bonded by a Ryshadium I say bring it on :lol:

Edited by Winds Alight
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Quote

Questioner

Did every Order of Knights Radiant have Ryshadium?

Brandon Sanderson

The Ryshadium were a separate not always-- not just associated with Knights Radiant.

Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)
Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Where did you get your ideas for knights?

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A knight has a sword, armor and a horse.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/157/#e2858

 

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20 hours ago, Minimanmax1 said:

The dawnshards I'm pretty sure are something completely different. We also know that there is a set number of dawnshard by WOB. Therefore, with a constant influx and changing amount of Knights swearing the fifth ideal, it wouldn't really fit for a dawnshard to be the gain. 

Well said, I wasn't aware of those WoB, thanks! Plus, it would probably be a little overpowered.

18 hours ago, The traveller said:

I had always thought that ... well, there are references of knights had the trifecta- blade, plate and horse(Ryshadium)..

and since 3rd oath gives them blade, 4th gives plate so may be 5th gives them a Ryshadium to bond....

Interesting theory, I can't discount it though I'm not entirely on board with it. I do think Brandon has said we would learn more about Ryshadium in future books, maybe for a reason similar to this.

I do think Stormlight efficiency and mastery of Surges would be a part of it, but I do believe we're missing something, as this is Brandon Sanderson. There's always another secret.

Now, one thing I notice about the epigraph I quoted was that it spoke of the manifestations of spren. Slightly before Kaladin swears the Second Ideal, we see Syl can appear as a full-sized lady in the Physical Realm. After Kaladin swears the Third Ideal, Syl can appear as a Shard-whatever. I believe we could theorize better when we understand the Fourth Ideal better, however, all we know is that a certain Windrunner in swearing the Fourth Ideal would "earn his armor." I doubt the bonded spren would be manifesting as armors, if the Knights Radiant had both Plate and Blade, but it could fit in with the lesser spren theory, with the lesser spren's manifestations growing stronger via Plate. I believe the Fifth Ideal will be when spren manifest the strongest, but I can't quite figure out in what way.

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I personally think 5th ideal radiants=surge fabrials.

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I don’t think the Radiants have to necessarily gain anything new beyond Stormlight efficiency/effectiveness because that’s all they get for the second oath. And they can even use surges before swearing an oath if they are a squire first. If they gain anything new, we don’t have any solid evidence as of yet.

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3 hours ago, Crucible of Shards said:

I don’t think the Radiants have to necessarily gain anything new beyond Stormlight efficiency/effectiveness because that’s all they get for the second oath. And they can even use surges before swearing an oath if they are a squire first. If they gain anything new, we don’t have any solid evidence as of yet.

Final level!  You get slightly more powerful and that is it!  Feels like a bit of a letdown.

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Personally I believe 5th Oath represents a complete soul merge with the spren. This is because the reference I think Syl makes when talking bonds with Kaladin. Syl says that the bond can be voluntarily dissolved without harm to man or spren up until the final Oath.  So upon Oath 5 spren are fully mortal and their bonded human can see into the Cognitive at will. As far as power,  5 oath Radiants don't leak Stormlight,  they gain an instinctive understanding of both their surges and can do things with a teaspoon of stormlight that it would take a lower Oath Radiant a full pouch of gemstones to achieve. My opinion only. 

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1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Syl says that the bond can be voluntarily dissolved without harm to man or spren up until the final Oath

Actually the honorspren captain but yeah.

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

5 oath Radiants don't leak Stormlight

Sorry

Quote
Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)
#25 Share Copy
 
 

Zykai (paraphrased)

Squires and people wielding Honorblades use more Stormlight than a regular Radiant. Who uses more?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The further you progress, the more efficient you become at consuming Stormlight. They're never as efficient as the Voidbringers, since humans leak too much.

Otherwise good luck with your theory(I particularly like the CR view screen at will).

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I think I was getting the leakage thing from WOK when they spoke of legends, about how it was said that voidbringers could hold stormlight perfectly.  Since humans are the OG voidbringers...well you get my point. Anyway that's my headcanon until proven otherwise.  

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1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Anyway that's my headcanon until proven otherwise

See WoB above no?

Edited by Karger
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Naw I read it @Karger and accept it as fact. I was just describing why I thought the way I did. I meant that I'm using everything else in my theory as headcanon,  and the fact that they leak accounted for.

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1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Naw I read it @Karger and accept it as fact. I was just describing why I thought the way I did. I meant that I'm using everything else in my theory as headcanon,  and the fact that they leak accounted for.

Understood.  Thank you.

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On 11/22/2019 at 6:24 PM, Knight of Iron said:

 

So the ability for spren to manifest in the Physical Realm grows stronger the more oaths that are given. I suspect this is why after the Third Ideal, spren can become Shardblades/spears/forks. Another epigraph mentions achieving the Fourth Ideal in association with "earning my armor," and there is obviously some mystery still around that. But what of the Fifth Ideal? If the Third is some sort of weapon, and assuming the Fourth is some armor, then what could the Fifth be? I welcome theories.

 

Problem: Shallan.  As far as we know, there's nothing special about her as a Radiant, like with Lift, but she had her Shardblade after just the First ideal, and is currently on her fourth without having any Plate.  This has led to the speculation that each order, along with having different ideals, also earn their blades/plate after different oaths.  If Shallan is a typical Lightweaver, then that would mean Lightweavers get their blades immediately, but their plate last.  

 

Bondsmiths, or at least the one bonded to the Stormfather, don't get Shards at all, or at least not Blades.  Windrunners seem to get their blade after the 3rd, as happened with Kaladin and Teft, but need at least the 4rth to get their plate, maybe 5th.  Edgedancers, or at least Lift, got her after the third as well.  No idea when Renarin or Jasnah got theirs.  And are there any Skybreakers alive who have sworn the forth oath and succeeded on their quest?  Because none of them have used Plate so far.  That would suggest it's the 5th oath that grants Plate for them.  

 

Just some thoughts.

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2 hours ago, Tglassy said:

And are there any Skybreakers alive who have sworn the forth oath and succeeded on their quest?  Because none of them have used Plate so far.  That would suggest it's the 5th oath that grants Plate for them.  

All of the Master Skybreakers have completed their crusade. They likely have plate, but we just haven't seen any of them in combat.

Edited by ChickenLiberty
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