Jump to content

Is it Possible to get Atium and Lerasium from Harmonium


SzethIsBadAsHell

Recommended Posts

 I saw this in the coppermind while researching Ferachemy . I know the coppermind is not canon . So I’m asking as an opinion of what you guys thought .

         I know IRL people use chemistry and Alchemy to make alloy of metals and superarte metals . Could it be possible to get Harmonium and superate it into its two base metals . 

          I’m Assuming Harmonium is theoretically an Allow of Atium and Lerasium . If so this is something the set would greatly abuse. 

         One of my favorite quotes as a child was “ A little knowledge is a dangerous thing” 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not possible through mechanical means. I'd imagine it takes something like Spiritual fission to get it to work. Harmonium is an element, not an alloy. An alloy of atium and lerasium would make an atium Misting.

Quote

Questioner

If I were to alloy atium and lerasium, would I get harmonium? Or is harmonium different after the Shards combined?

Brandon Sanderson

It's different after the Shards combined.

Questioner

If I was to take harmonium and separate it out through distillation, would I get lerasium and atium or something that functions similarly?

Brandon Sanderson

No, you would-- It actually has become a different--

Questioner

Can't be split?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. I mean, you could find a way, but you're not going to get it through normal, mechanical means.

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)
Quote

Ironeyes

So harmonium, we have a working theory that the reason it's so volatile is because some of the subatomic particles are associated with Ruin and some of them are [of?] Preservation. Is that true?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's basically what's going on is that it's creating a very unstable metal. Now, it is in the nature of the Cosmere not a compound but an element. But, you could call it a subatomic particle sure. It's very volatile because it is in nature spiritually in contrast with itself. And so though it is a single element rather than a compound, the spiritual nature is not happy as it is, and you can set up in the physical realm, through reactivity things that would just rip it apart and really your energy is not, your energy in that is actually pulling from the Spiritual realm, and so that's why it can be so much more explosive than even the chemistry would account for.

Ironeyes

So it's not that the subatomic particles are invested, it's that they have a spiritual identity which causes them to...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Ironeyes

So then it's not creating an oxide because after the spiritual energy goes away from the explosion[unintelligible] metal, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, and...

Ironeyes

So you can't find harmonium oxide in the water afterwards.

Brandon Sanderson

Right right right right. Because it's not, it's, yeah.  But you might be able to find something else, which is really relevant to the cosmere. And to Scadrial.

Ironeyes

So the core elements, the core particles, having extra repulsion causes them to have a nuclear potential.

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call it nuclear because it's not the same exact thing. But there is a cosmere equivalent, to... I mean, you could do nuclear power just the same in the cosmere, but since we have a third kind of state of matter, right, matter, energy, Investiture, you have a third axis that you know, you can release energy from matter, you can release investiture from matter, and things like that. So it's similar, but following its own rules that I have a little more... that are controlled by me, right. But are built on this idea. So once you add [unintelligible for a few syllables] that matter can now exist in this third state, you get all sorts of weird things, which one of the things that happens is, you can get an energy release in sort of the same way. A reaction, I'm not going to call it a nuclear reaction, but of the same vein.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 19, 2017)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, you can't get lerasium and atium from harmonium mechanically but it might be possible to distill it from the mists.

Quote

BlackYeti

Because you've talked about alloying the god metals with other ones-- I was wondering whether you would be able to melt them down as you would with normal metals.

Brandon Sanderson

If you could distill the god metal: you could distill it out of the mist, that's theoretically possible.

Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@RShara is Brandon Sanderson a scientist before he started writing books ? He looses every time he starts talking about particles etc and that just dawned on me as to why ?

 

@Weltall so if it can’t be done mechanically , what kind of device would you need to do that . If would have to be something that captured investiture and maybe condense it perhaps . Have we seen anything in the Cosmere like that?

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

so if it can’t be done mechanically , what kind of device would you need to do that . If would have to be something that captured investiture and maybe condense it perhaps . Have we seen anything in the Cosmere like that?

Do you mean separating Harmonium into Atium and Lerasium, or distilling Harmonium or Lerasium/Atium from the mists?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Karger said:

In theory maybe.  However I think the Mists might resist the attempt if done through mechanical means.

Resist as part of some natural function, or resist in the sense that the Mists are a direct extension of Sazed and he might object?  If the former, that's an interesting idea, how so?  If the latter, I dont see him ever needing to do it (Im assuming he can make more Mistborn if he wanted to), but he seems to have a very hands-off policy to what the mortals of the world Choose (based on Marsh's statements).  

The only circumstance I can think of where Sazed could need Lerasium specifically, is to use it's "Other" property, it's ability to Connect you to the Shard of any alien godmetal it is alloyed with.  Im not sure one shard could just Wish that sort of thing into existence without the other Shard's cooperation.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Quantus said:

Resist as part of some natural function, or resist in the sense that the Mists are a direct extension of Sazed and he might object?  If the former, that's an interesting idea, how so? 

Mist does not go inside buildings so capturing it might be difficult.  If Saze objects he can do what he wants being god has its privileges after all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Karger said:

Mist does not go inside buildings so capturing it might be difficult.  If Saze objects he can do what he wants being god has its privileges after all.

That's fair, though I cant think of any particular  reason why you'd have to do the process (whatever it might be) indoors.  But so long as you can access a reasonable supply of it (and Sazed doesnt choose to withdraw it for whatever reason), Id think it would work.  Granted what qualifies as "a reasonable supply" might be a room's worth of volume or might require acres and acres of Mist, with all the exponentially increased logistical issues that you get with any large-scale manufacturing process.  

As far as Sazed goes, I agree that he could certainly and easily prevent you from using the mists.  There are some limits somewhere with the God materials, given that Ruin could prevent the Atium Horde from being Burned even though he wanted to.  

 

 

Follow-up question is how "Red" you folks think this distillation process might be.  Lerasium is fundamentally the result of Leras himself rather than Preservation.  So I wonder if re-configuring Sazed's Investiture into the now extinct form that existed during Leras's time would be a significant enough rework to cause the corruption Red-shift.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That's fair, though I cant think of any particular  reason why you'd have to do the process (whatever it might be) indoors.  But so long as you can access a reasonable supply of it (and Sazed doesnt choose to withdraw it for whatever reason), Id think it would work.  Granted what qualifies as "a reasonable supply" might be a room's worth of volume or might require acres and acres of Mist, with all the exponentially increased logistical issues that you get with any large-scale manufacturing process.  

Yes.  Think about clouds. A typical cumulus cloud is about a cubic kilometer in volume, and only has about 500 tons of water

30 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Follow-up question is how "Red" you folks think this distillation process might be.  Lerasium is fundamentally the result of Leras himself rather than Preservation.  So I wonder if re-configuring Sazed's Investiture into the now extinct form that existed during Leras's time would be a significant enough rework to cause the corruption Red-shift.  

Nice pun!  I don't really think it would work that way though.  You don't usually get red with conversion of investiture only co-opting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Follow-up question is how "Red" you folks think this distillation process might be.  Lerasium is fundamentally the result of Leras himself rather than Preservation.  So I wonder if re-configuring Sazed's Investiture into the now extinct form that existed during Leras's time would be a significant enough rework to cause the corruption Red-shift.  

Pretty sure there would be no weird consequences to doing this because creating more lerasium is theoretically within Harmony's powers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

Pretty sure there would be no weird consequences to doing this because creating more lerasium is theoretically within Harmony's powers.

Oh, I entirely agree that it's within his power to do, just as making a Godmetal that has functions in the Metallic Arts is within Trell's Power, but that alone won't determine whether or not Sazed's Investiture would be different enough to manifest anything "Red" when it did so.  

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Yes.  Think about clouds. A typical cumulus cloud is about a cubic kilometer in volume, and only has about 500 tons of water

True, though Im not sure we can count on the material forms of Investiture to follow any sort of normal Density conversions during this non-mechanical, supernatural process, given that the Liquid state is actually the most Investiture-dense, rather than the solid or the gaseous forms.  

Edited by Quantus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Quantus said:

True, though Im not sure we can count on the material forms of Investiture to follow any sort of normal Density conversions during this non-mechanical, supernatural process, given that the Liquid state is actually the most Investiture-dense, rather than the solid or the gaseous forms.  

Liquid water is generally the densest form of H2O.  I don't see anything odd here.  I generally try and just default to normal understanding unless given a reason not to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Investiture acting as matter is clearly not a simple thing. Yes, water is densest in liquid form, and that is a distinct oddity in nature. Furthermore, we've seen all three forms of Investiture exist in near identical environments. We have no idea what conditions result in the different physical states. There's no natural phenomenon to place a parrelel. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If it manages to leave the gun without exploding. I can't say I'd feel comfortable pulling that trigger. 

I didn’t realize it was that sensitive . I thought it was like mercury and reacted with water . In that crossbow bolts . With plastic covers , you remove before firing . One bolt should stop any creature with water base 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If it manages to leave the gun without exploding. I can't say I'd feel comfortable pulling that trigger. 

I don’t think it is unstable at room temperature just sitting there unless it comes in contact with water.. which will only happen when the bullet enters someone’s body.. 

Is ettmetal combustible with slight variation in temperature too? If it were so, then it would not be used by southerners to fuel their aircrafts..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I don’t think it is unstable at room temperature just sitting there unless it comes in contact with water.. which will only happen when the bullet enters someone’s body.. 

Is ettmetal combustible with slight variation in temperature too? If it were so, then it would not be used by southerners to fuel their aircrafts..

 

19 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I didn’t realize it was that sensitive . I thought it was like mercury and reacted with water . In that crossbow bolts . With plastic covers , you remove before firing . One bolt should stop any creature with water base 

It's... Not unstable, it's reactive. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said ettmetal is chemically reactive, not nuclear.

The longer answer makes it sound like Harmonium isn't a Lerasium/Atium alloy, but a whole new metal. He described it as "super-cesium," and that its volatility was based on electrons, not on protons or neutrons.

"It is not unstable, it is reactive. So it's like a "super-cesium". It reacts so violently..."

Footnote: Unspecified question by Pagerunner.
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)
Quote

Phantine

[Question unknown]

Brandon Sanderson

So, don't consider [harmonium] magically-enhanced cesium. Consider it a magically-created alkali metal. It's going to share attributes with the alkali metals, and generally follows the trends of the others, save for its melting point.

But in answer to your real question, atium would be a platinum group metal. (And platinum itself was my model.)

General Reddit 2017 (Jan. 2, 2017)

Alkali metals don't just react chemically. You can set them alight, and it will start a similar reaction. 

I don't think launching it with an explosion is a great idea. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Honorless said:

I meant before, during Leras' time. If Harmonium can be distilled now then Lerasium could've been distilled then

The WOB said that Lerasium can be distilled from the mists, and separately that Lerasium and Atium could theoretically be distilled from Harmonium.  But I dont think you could distill Harmonium from Mists, any more than you could Distill Harmonium from Lerasium or Atium. Even though Harmony holds both, and Harmonium has begun to form, the two Shards have not actually Merged, and I strongly suspect the Mist is still purely a Perservation thing, or at least 99%.  If you could get Harmonium out of the Mists, I think it would take a metric f-ton more of the mists to get the equal ratios of Preservation-to-Ruin than it would to get pure Lerasium.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, I thought he was talking about Harmonium, thanks for the clarification, @Quantus.

The Mists are of Harmony now, I don't see why you couldn't distill Harmonium from them. They have changed. They no longer pull away from Hemalurgy and are capable of powering both Allomancy and Feruchemy as per Alloy of Law annotations

Quote

Chaos

Do all three Metallic Arts still exist after the events of the book? Are Allomancy and Hemalurgy slightly degenerated now that Ruin and Preservation are dead, or does Allomancy still draw upon Preservation's power (just held with Sazed now)?

Brandon Sanderson

Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy all work as they once did. However, now they are more directly affected by the presence or absence of the mists, which will slowly return to the world but not be of the extent they once were. (The mists are now an extent of Sazed's power, and where they roam, he is better able to influence things. There will also be two kinds of mists.) Note that in the future, Feruchemy powers will start to fracture and split, creating Feruchemical "Mistings."

Yes, this means that in the future series, it will be possible for a person to have one Allomantic power and one Feruchemical power. It will create for some very interesting mixing of powers.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

(emphasis mine)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Oh, I thought he was talking about Harmonium, thanks for the clarification, @Quantus.

The Mists are of Harmony now, I don't see why you couldn't distill Harmonium from them. They have changed. They no longer pull away from Hemalurgy and are capable of powering both Allomancy and Feruchemy as per Alloy of Law annotations

(emphasis mine)

I think the bit you Bolded is precisely the key point.  There are two kinds of Mists still, presumably the same Ruinous Black mist and the more widely known white Preservation Mist that we saw before, they have not merged into a Single Harmony Mist or anything, so at most each will be primarily one shard with at most trace impurities of the other.  Now, if you have access to both for your distillation process, Harmonium is certainly on the table.  But if you only have access to one, you'd be faced with needing to distill 50% of your final product from just those trace impurities.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...