How Does One "Kill" a Herald?

[Karger]

We know that the Herald's "died" during the desolations but they have unlimited access to Honor's investiture.  How did the fused kill them?

[Toaster Retribution]

Arrow to the knee.

[Karger]

48 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Arrow to the knee.

Ow.  But seriously I doubt that would slow any of them down.

[+Invocation]

Very carefully.

But in real terms, probably extreme bodily damage. Even being overcharged by Honor wouldn't probably let them heal if you chop off the head and toss it into a roaring fire while your buddies shred the body.

[Aluminum]

Dawnshards? Maybe it is because the oathpact is shattered that the Heralds can be killed permanently.

[Toaster Retribution]

48 minutes ago, Karger said:

Ow.  But seriously I doubt that would slow any of them down.

Not unless you also have the high ground and the Heralds think that you are underestimating their power. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Toaster Retribution

[+ILuvHats]

Pretty much what Invocation said. Just overwhelm their body with damage. I'm sure a thunderclast could take out a herald if they weren't careful, especially if they don't have access to a surge that increases mobility like Gravitation or Abrasion. Yes, we see Renarin recover from getting squashed, but imagine if a thunderclast crushed a person and held them like that. Considering their body can't actually return to an uncrushed state, I don't think even a herald could keep up a lost cause like that for more than a few minutes maximum.

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

Pretty much what Invocation said. Just overwhelm their body with damage. I'm sure a thunderclast could take out a herald if they weren't careful, especially if they don't have access to a surge that increases mobility like Gravitation or Abrasion. Yes, we see Renarin recover from getting squashed, but imagine if a thunderclast crushed a person and held them like that. Considering their body can't actually return to an uncrushed state, I don't think even a herald could keep up a lost cause like that for more than a few minutes maximum.

Just a little nitpick, the thunderclast did keep its hand down on Renarin. Renarin summoned his blade and sliced up wounding the claw which is why the thunderclast pulled back. 

As to how to kill a herald, personally I am still of the belief we have seen no where near the level of power Odium's forces can bring to bear. Odium has not brought them yet because he thought he had the whole battle in hand. The heralds were out of the picture, Dalinar was going to be his champion leading the turned Alethi, Kaladin and Shallan were dead (to his knowledge), and Jasnah was going to kill Renarin (to his knowledge). That is why he told the parsh to sit back and watch. He thought he had everything in hand. Now that he realizes he did not and since the heralds are potentially a threat (hence killing Jezerien to preemptively deal with them) I think Odium will begin amassing the true forces that caused the desolations of the past. I think our heroes are in for a very very bad time. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Pathfinder

[+ILuvHats]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Just a little nitpick, the thunderclast did keep its hand down on Renarin. Renarin summoned his blade and sliced up wounding the claw which is why the thunderclast pulled back. 

Oops. I really need to reread OB. Again.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, ILuvHats said:

Oops. I really need to reread OB. Again.

No worries. Its a favorite scene of mine, so that is why it is fresh in my mind

"The thunderclast's palm crashed down on Renarin, smashing him. Adolin screamed, but his brother's Shardblade cut up through the palm, then separated the hand from the wrist. The thunderclast trumpeted in anger as Renarin climbed from the rubble of the hand. He seemed to heal more quickly than Kaladin or Shallan did, as if being crushed wasn't even a bother"

[GoWibble]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

We know that the Herald's "died" during the desolations but they have unlimited access to Honor's investiture.  How did the fused kill them?

Fight #1: Herald vs Anti-Herald. 

Winner: both and neither. They both die ad are reincarnated. 

Fight #2...

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Invocation said:

But in real terms, probably extreme bodily damage. Even being overcharged by Honor wouldn't probably let them heal if you chop off the head and toss it into a roaring fire while your buddies shred the body.

Then why did no one try this with TLR and why did it not work?

1 hour ago, Aluminum said:

Dawnshards? Maybe it is because the oathpact is shattered that the Heralds can be killed permanently.

That is not what I am talking about.  The Herald's were killed numerous times prior to the breaking of the oathpact.

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Not unless you also have the high ground and the Heralds think that you are underestimating their power. 

I want to "make you more powerful then you can possibly imagine" for referencing that movie.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

As to how to kill a herald, personally I am still of the belief we have seen no where near the level of power Odium's forces can bring to bear. Odium has not brought them yet because he thought he had the whole battle in hand. The heralds were out of the picture, Dalinar was going to be his champion leading the turned Alethi, Kaladin and Shallan were dead (to his knowledge), and Jasnah was going to kill Renarin (to his knowledge). That is why he told the parsh to sit back and watch. He thought he had everything in hand. Now that he realizes he did not and since the heralds are potentially a threat (hence killing Jezerien to preemptively deal with them) I think Odium will begin amassing the true forces that caused the desolations of the past. I think our heroes are in for a very very bad time. 

But more powerful how?  It is not like raw physical damage should bother the Heralds much.  Especially Pailiah and Vedel.  If it was just a matter of doing enough physical damage I would not see a problem.  The current fused could overwell a lone Herald via shear numbers.  However all of the Heralds have access to a never ending supply of healing energy that cannot be severed.  How does one deal with that?

[+Invocation]

Just now, Karger said:

Then why did no one try this with TLR and why did it not work?

People tried doing stuff like that to TLR (they burned down an inn he was staying at with him inside and all), but they didn't have an Invested army working in concert to do something like that. Plus, with the overwhelming power TLR demonstrated, you'd have trouble finding people to get close enough to do that, if they even could make it.

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Invocation said:

People tried doing stuff like that to TLR (they burned down an inn he was staying at with him inside and all), but they didn't have an Invested army working in concert to do something like that

I fail to understand.  They tried but it did not work it would not work unless Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

they did the thing.

You think they could have just overwhelmed him?  Keep in mind that again

Spoiler

he survived beheading and was once flayed.

 

[+Invocation]

Just now, Karger said:

You think they could have just overwhelmed him?  Keep in mind that again

That's my point: they couldn't. The Heralds could be overwhelmed, but he can't because he's got an entirely different powerset and different advantages. It's not a 1:1 thing, Herald to TLR. Stormlight healing and A-gold work much differently. What would work on a Herald won't work on TLR.

[Pathfinder]

56 minutes ago, Karger said:

But more powerful how?  It is not like raw physical damage should bother the Heralds much.  Especially Pailiah and Vedel.  If it was just a matter of doing enough physical damage I would not see a problem.  The current fused could overwell a lone Herald via shear numbers.  However all of the Heralds have access to a never ending supply of healing energy that cannot be severed.  How does one deal with that?

Do we know a current fused could overwhelm a current herald? We have not seen a herald in combat. We have seen Nale holding himself back pursuing radiants due to the local law. We have seen a drunk herald. But I have not seen a herald in combat even in their current incarnation. So I do not think we can say the fused as they stand now can take out a herald as they stand now. For myself, I think they are still a threat, which is why Odium had Moash kill Jezerien. 

As to more powerful how? I am saying we saw what the nightmother could do when she is disorientated, and is missing something. She could produce a never ending army. And that is with her not at her full power. Same thing with Yelig-nar, Ashterman, Sja-anat, Nergaoul, and Moeloch. We have only seen tastes of what these entities can do, and that is not even all of the Unmade. The songs of the listeners speak of even more forms we have not seen. So I do not believe thunderclasts are the greatest foe heralds have had to face/fight off. 

[Config2]

Do we know that the Heralds had infinite access to investiture?

Maybe I missed it in the books or a WoB, but it seemed to me they didn't have powers beyond the oathpact (pseudo immortality) and those surges granted by their honorblades.

Honor did have full control of the highstorm in those days, and could move it to give radiants or the heralds renewing stormlight, but only with some forethought and planning. If Honor was distracted, or the heralds were in different locations, then that wouldn't work.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Do we know a current fused could overwhelm a current herald? We have not seen a herald in combat.

My point was this was not a problem for me.  We don't know the full capabilities of either force so I decided not to worry about them.  With an unlimited number of monkeys in my army I could overwhelm the Heralds pretty much no matter how strong they are.  My problem is that if the Heralds just keep healing this won't matter a bit.

2 minutes ago, Config2 said:

Do we know that the Heralds had infinite access to investiture?

Maybe I missed it in the books or a WoB, but it seemed to me they didn't have powers beyond the oathpact (pseudo immortality) and those surges granted by their honorblades.

Honor did have full control of the highstorm in those days, and could move it to give radiants or the heralds renewing stormlight, but only with some forethought and planning. If Honor was distracted, or the heralds were in different locations, then that wouldn't work.

The Heralds were fueled directly by Honor.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Karger

[Config2]

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

The Heralds were fused directly by Honor.

The fused are, well, fused directly to Odium. And they still have a finite amount of investiture, since we see Chiri-Chiri drain a fused of their voidlight.

We don't know enough about the Oathpact to assume that its connection between Honor and the Heralds gave them access to functionally infinite amounts of Honor's investiture. 

Edit:

Actually I'm still unsure where we have seen that the Heralds are actually directly tied to Honor. They obviously are close to him, and are allowed to form the oathpact using some of his investiture, but that's one thing. After the oathpact is set up, however, are they still directly tied to him?

Edited November 20, 2019 by Config2
see text

[NameIess]

Quote

Spoiler

 

WindRunner88 (paraphrased)

So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding  order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

 

Spoiler

 

18th_Shard

Does a Herald using an Honorblade consume the same "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them. (But they have other advantages.)

uchoo786

Are Honorblades closer in power to Nightblood than they are to Shardblades made from Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Hard to say. They're all similar, but at the same time, very different. And in a way, Nightblood is what you might call a "Third Generation" blade.

uchoo786

Ah gotcha. And in this analogy, Honorblades would be 1st gen and Sprenblades would be 2nd gen?

Brandon Sanderson 

Yes

Spoiler

 

Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Steeldancer

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Steeldancer

The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

 

 

These WoBs are what I could find on the heralds, spoilered for length.

[Pathfinder]

43 minutes ago, Karger said:

My point was this was not a problem for me.  We don't know the full capabilities of either force so I decided not to worry about them.  With an unlimited number of monkeys in my army I could overwhelm the Heralds pretty much no matter how strong they are.  My problem is that if the Heralds just keep healing this won't matter a bit.

The Heralds were fueled directly by Honor.

And my point is you are thinking purely physical. Not all the Unmade operate purely physical brute force. Further there could be powers (cough dustbringers cough cough) that could fully atomize a body before healing occurs for all we know. Basically all I am saying is I am keeping an open mind regarding what Odium could bring up that could give the Heralds a hard time. 

35 minutes ago, Config2 said:

The fused are, well, fused directly to Odium. And they still have a finite amount of investiture, since we see Chiri-Chiri drain a fused of their voidlight.

We don't know enough about the Oathpact to assume that its connection between Honor and the Heralds gave them access to functionally infinite amounts of Honor's investiture. 

Edit:

Actually I'm still unsure where we have seen that the Heralds are actually directly tied to Honor. They obviously are close to him, and are allowed to form the oathpact using some of his investiture, but that's one thing. After the oathpact is set up, however, are they still directly tied to him?

Llstml provided the WoB. Before Honor died, the honorblades let the heralds draw directly on his power. 

10 minutes ago, Llstml said:

These WoBs are what I could find on the heralds, spoilered for length.

Thank you!

[Aluminum]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

6 hours ago, Aluminum said:

Dawnshards? Maybe it is because the oathpact is shattered that the Heralds can be killed permanently.

That is not what I am talking about.  The Herald's were killed numerous times prior to the breaking of the oathpact.

Sorry, I was a little bit unclear. What I meant was that perhaps the dawnshards or whatever Vyre's knife is was how they killed them originally. Perhaps Odium has always had them. But because the oathpact was in place previously the knife wouldn't suck up their soul. Just sent the heralds back to Braize. 

[Calderis]

25 minutes ago, Aluminum said:

Sorry, I was a little bit unclear. What I meant was that perhaps the dawnshards or whatever Vyre's knife is was how they killed them originally. Perhaps Odium has always had them. But because the oathpact was in place previously the knife wouldn't suck up their soul. Just sent the heralds back to Braize. 

The Oathpact is still in place. The Heralds are still tied to each other, and Taln's presence on Braize still held the Fused back. 

The Everstorm has circumvented that, but it's not gone. 

[bxcnch]

A Herald is technically just a Cognitive Shadow attached to an "artificial" body that didn't originally belong to them, right? We know that some things, like Kaladin's scars cannot be healed because of the way he sees himself. If a Herald thinks of his new body as something that doesn't belong to them, is Stormlight-based healing of that body even possible?

I mean, I think that they probably were able to heal, because otherwise they would be rather "underpowered", but right now I can't really think of any scene where it explicitly says that Heralds can heal.

[StanLemon]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

The Heralds were fueled directly by Honor.

 

3 hours ago, Llstml said:

These WoBs are what I could find on the heralds, spoilered for length.

 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Llstml provided the WoB. Before Honor died, the honorblades let the heralds draw directly on his power. 

3 hours ago, Llstml said:

None of any of this means that they had power on TLRs level. That is merely an assumption being made. For all we know, being fueled directly by Honor meant they don't run out of Investiture. Allomancy is done by directly being powered by Preservation, but there is a limit to how much power that they can draw out at any given time no matter how much metal they have eaten. The amount of metal just indicates how long they can do it. It's entirely possible that the Heralds have the same limitation.