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Do you think the Heralds had plate


SzethIsBadAsHell

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When Stormfather told Dalinar about the Honorblades , he said “ with it you became  a Windrunner Un-oathed , and more ...” I always wondered what he meant by that . Are thier more powers it grants that we haven’t seen ? 

       Then I thought of the creatures the Heralds fought during desolations , Thunderclast , midnight essences , etc . I further thought of how the spren copied what they saw the Heralds doing. So I wonder can the Heralds when they have thier Honorblades produce plate . Without it they could be taken out fairly easily by 3 or 4 Fused attacking in concert . If they have a Thinderclast or unmade in the vicinity it would be even easier to kill one . 

        If they had plate however , they couldn’t be laShed and wouldn’t be susceptible to any of the influence of the unmade surges . With thier experience it would give pause to even 10 Fused to attack one. 

      When Honor was alive he supplied them with stormlight so they would really be scary to Fused having that much power at thier fingertips. What do you think ? Plate or no plate? 

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WindRunner88 (paraphrased)

So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding  order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

The heralds had massive levels of investiture, possibly on the level of shattering the shattered plains, as well as millennia of experience. They couldn't be taken out 3 or 4 fused, Kaladin held out against 3 with limited stormlight and no shardblade in OB, he only lost when he ran out of stormlight. The heralds did die in the desolations, but a thunderclast isn't much of a threat when you can simply soulcast it to smoke with a wave of your hand, dissolve it with division, or just cut it to peices with an honorblade, tanking hits and healing from them with impunity.

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I don't know if Honorblade grants plate but I'm fairly certain that we haven't been shown the full capacity of Honorblades quite yet. Heralds had a direct link to Honor and so could use the Surges that Honorblades grant to much more devastating effect, but that says everything about Heralds and nothing about Honorblades. If Stormfather says there's more to the blade than Surges then I am inclined to believe him. And Plate is a possibility; where would Spren get the idea for it otherwise?

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2 hours ago, Llstml said:

The heralds had massive levels of investiture, possibly on the level of shattering the shattered plains, as well as millennia of experience. They couldn't be taken out 3 or 4 fused, Kaladin held out against 3 with limited stormlight and no shardblade in OB, he only lost when he ran out of stormlight. The heralds did die in the desolations, but a thunderclast isn't much of a threat when you can simply soulcast it to smoke with a wave of your hand, dissolve it with division, or just cut it to peices with an honorblade, tanking hits and healing from them with impunity.

You could be right . I’m assuming it was thier link to Honor that gave them access to stormlight in plentitude . Honor is dead now . So now unless Dalinar can supercharge them or possibly link with them since he in my opinion can do that thru his bond with honor’s splinter. They are now easier to kill . Although they may still be able to be reborn . So now I doubt the Fused will have too much of a problem dealing with them.

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Heralds didn't have Squires. As far as we know they didn't have plate. (Jezrien's uniform state in the prelude would be... Crazy if he did have plate). 

Personally, I think the "something more" of the Honorblades is the direct feed of Investiture. And I think Nale joining Odium’s side is going to be a necessary plot point for Vyre to not be a joke. Because this is what the Stormfather says about the blades. 

Quote

What will you do with it? the Stormfather asked as Dalinar entered the empty corridors. It is a weapon beyond parallel. The gift of a god. With it, you would be a Windrunner unoathed. And more. More that men do not understand, and cannot. Like a Herald, nearly.

What do we know that differentiated the Heralds enough to make them so beyond the Radiants that isn't rebirth? Because we know that's not the blade. 

Face it. Moash compared to Szeth is a joke. For Vyre not to just be a poor man's Assassin, he's got to have a major edge. A Heralds power would make him something completely different. 

We've never been told that the direct feed actually ended. It's just been assumed. The highstorms haven't stopped though... And we've never actually seen Nale draw in stormlight. Just glow. 

I personally am of the same opinion as @RShara that the Heralds are still bonded to their blades. Which, if they are bonded more deeply than someone who just picks up the blade, would make their healing better... Combined with the direct feed, that makes it feel like a wonder anything ever killed them at all. 

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20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

personally am of the same opinion as @RShara that the Heralds are still bonded to their blades. Which, if they are bonded more deeply than someone who just picks up the blade, would make their healing better... Combined with the direct feed, that makes it feel like a wonder anything ever killed them at all. 

Well I can’t wait to see one in action . Nale is scary as hell with the surges he commands and his demeanor ( not caring about anything ) I would really would hate to see what he would do on a battlefield . Assuming he would doing damage to the Radiant forces it will be a bunch of killing going on.  Hopefully division is touch only and can’t be used at range .

         I read edgedancer today , and you are right ! Nale didn’t draw in stormlight he just started glowing . If there link to stormlight is still in place then oh boy . 

       I also agree about Vyre , he is not as is a match for Szeth . I think they will use him as a counter to Kaladin . Kaladin breaks down everytime he has to fight someone he really doesn’t want too.

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2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

where would Spren get the idea for it otherwise?

The spren can get the idea of plate from the singers themselves. They have carapace- like armour plate that covers their bodies and protects them.. Since the radiants were fighting them, it seems possible that they got the idea of giving an armour to their radiants also..

As far as heralds are concerned, we have References of their blades but nowhere in the books has people mentioned them as having a plate. The Vorin mythology that teaches people about heralds mentions no plate 

Quote

“The heralds glow like sun, wield honorblades and speak with voice like the thousand trumpets. They could cast down building with a command, force the storms to obey and heal with a touch”

- Shallan’s recollection of what she was taught about heralds

As we know that her recollections are fairly accurate, we can rely on this as what the Vorin mythology teaches about heralds. 
All the things mentioned about heralds are true so, if there was a plate, it would be mentioned somewhere. But it is not

Edited by The traveller
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1 hour ago, The traveller said:

The spren can get the idea of plate from the singers themselves. They have carapace- like armour plate that covers their bodies and protects them.. Since the radiants were fighting them, it seems possible that they got the idea of giving an armour to their radiants also..

As far as heralds are concerned, we have References of their blades but nowhere in the books has people mentioned them as having a plate. The Vorin mythology that teaches people about heralds mentions no plate 

As we know that her recollections are fairly accurate, we can rely on this as what the Vorin mythology teaches about heralds. 
All the things mentioned about heralds are true so, if there was a plate, it would be mentioned somewhere. But it is not

That’s a very compelling argument , I mostly agree with it after hearing it put that way . However , isn’t there a statue Jezrien in Alethkar and he is wearing armor . I could of swore I read that , I am not certain it’s a statue or maybe a painting . Somebody let me know ?

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Ok I am trying to check this out.. @SzethIsBadAsHell

So far I have found one mention in Chapter 27 Twok, chasm fury where kaladin finds a knife which has a depiction of a man in plate and kaladin thinks could be jezerein or nalan. 
But if it is Nalan then that would make sense because he is also a radiant and will have shardplate.

And I found one more. Dalinar in his vision of Aharietiam sees the stoneward knight wearing shardplate and asks stormfather if the man was a Herald. 
So, this seems to suggest that kaladin and dalinar are open to the idea of heralds having shardplates.. 

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10 minutes ago, The traveller said:

So, this seems to suggest that kaladin and dalinar are open to the idea of heralds having shardplates.. 

Yeah but they also thought the Heralds had ascended to the Tranquiline Halls. It's been four thousand years and even the amount of Desolations that actually happened is vague. I don't think characters being open to it is a reliable source of potential for that.

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3 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Yeah but they also thought the Heralds had ascended to the Tranquiline Halls. It's been four thousand years and even the amount of Desolations that actually happened is vague. I don't think characters being open to it is a reliable source of potential for that.

I am actually happy that you think that because i don't think heralds had plate. I think it should be mentioned more if it were so. And when they left their honorblades, why did they not leave their "Honorplates" too.

 But "kaladin and dalinar being open to the idea of heralds having plates" still negates the point i had earlier made in this very thread, let me quote it here again :

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

As far as heralds are concerned, we have References of their blades but nowhere in the books has people mentioned them as having a plate. The Vorin mythology that teaches people about heralds mentions no plate 

Quote

“The heralds glow like sun, wield honorblades and speak with voice like the thousand trumpets. They could cast down building with a command, force the storms to obey and heal with a touch”

- Shallan’s recollection of what she was taught about heralds

As we know that her recollections are fairly accurate, we can rely on this as what the Vorin mythology teaches about heralds. 
All the things mentioned about heralds are true so, if there was a plate, it would be mentioned somewhere. But it is not

 

Edited by The traveller
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1 minute ago, The traveller said:

I am actually happy that you think that because i agree. But this still negates the point i had earlier made, let me quote it here again :

Ah, my bad, I didn't connect those two posts. That's on me. 

I'm just going to say I don't think they actually had Plate. Perhaps some form of proto-Plate, maybe. Plate as we know it? I doubt it. I think most of their strength and power was exaggerated over the deification and general time passage, with the rest being provided by Honor's direct overcharging of them via the Honorblades.

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1 minute ago, Invocation said:

Ah, my bad, I didn't connect those two posts. That's on me. 

I'm just going to say I don't think they actually had Plate. Perhaps some form of proto-Plate, maybe. Plate as we know it? I doubt it. I think most of their strength and power was exaggerated over the deification and general time passage, with the rest being provided by Honor's direct overcharging of them via the Honorblades.

Its ok.. :)

But i agree that i don't think that Heralds had access to Honorplates.. If they had, then they would have left behind the honorplates too and nowhere does Szeth mentions any such plates either..

Also, the confusion where Kaladin and Dalinar might look at warriors wearing Shardplate and think that it could be a herald, could come from

- Long time has passed and over time people might have wrongfully ascribed radiant shardplates to Heralds too..

- Nalan could have confused matters further, by becoming an actual herald who also possessed a shardplate  

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Brandon has been mighty vague in regard to Heralds and Honorblades both. What we've been specifically told about Heralds is that they have rebirth and a direct connection to Honor. We've seen Honorblades grant surges. And that's all we got so far. 

Now, Moash and Szeth, the current and former holder of Jezrien's blade, did not and will not get a direct stormlight feed from Honor, and likely would not get one even were Tanavast alive in the current storyline.  Neither one will get rebirth either. So the quote indicates that a holder is close to herald like only without Oaths. But nothing of what we've seen on screen of the Honorblades in action indicates this.  A wet behind the ears, non-fully oathed Windrunner owned an Honorblade user with a couple decades of experience in its use. Everything we've seen so far indicates that an Honorblade is an inferior tool to someone who has a Nahel Bond. 

Basically I am saying that we're missing something or haven't been shown something.  Odium isn't going to the efforts he did to get an Honorblade and disconnect it from its original holder if it's just an inferior surgebinding tool. There's gotta be some undiscovered features. It may not be plate, you guys have a point in that the contribution could have come from the Singers and their organic carapace, but something is going on.  There's always another secret. 

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54 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Odium isn't going to the efforts he did to get an Honorblade and disconnect it from its original holder if it's just an inferior surgebinding tool. There's gotta be some undiscovered features. It may not be plate, you guys have a point in that the contribution could have come from the Singers and their organic carapace, but something is going on.  There's always another secret. 

On that I agree with you completely.. either they provide so much raw power to heralds that it is Lord ruler level or they can still be used to revive the oathpact..

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2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Brandon has been mighty vague in regard to Heralds and Honorblades both. What we've been specifically told about Heralds is that they have rebirth and a direct connection to Honor. We've seen Honorblades grant surges. And that's all we got so far. 

I've read through all the WoB on Heralds in the Arcanum. He pretty much RAFO's any question that he is asked. He even expanded on that once and said that "He doesn't want people paying attention to them yet."

I like this discussion, and the other one about how the heralds were killed, but the speculation might be premature, since we wont have anything 1st person for another 5 books (Shalash and Taln are supposedly books 9 and 10 I think). Thats like a decade of waiting before the speculation is resolved.

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52 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

We'll surely get more information about the Honorblades at least in SA4 and more on the Heralds at the start of the back 5. Will we get the complete picture?  Likely not.  But I expect to have much more to chew on soon. 

My jaws have been waiting since last year ! 

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7 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Now, Moash and Szeth, the current and former holder of Jezrien's blade, did not and will not get a direct stormlight feed from Honor, and likely would not get one even were Tanavast alive in the current storyline.  Neither one will get rebirth either. So the quote indicates that a holder is close to herald like only without Oaths. But nothing of what we've seen on screen of the Honorblades in action indicates this.  A wet behind the ears, non-fully oathed Windrunner owned an Honorblade user with a couple decades of experience in its use. Everything we've seen so far indicates that an Honorblade is an inferior tool to someone who has a Nahel Bond. 

Did not, sure will not? I really don't think we can say that. 

The Stormfather himself said that the unknown things about the Honorblade would do more than just a lack of oaths. That's specifically why I think Vyre will get the direct feed. He serves Odium now, and Odium has another Herald who will be able to teach him about whatever the secret of the blades is. 

4 hours ago, Config2 said:

I like this discussion, and the other one about how the heralds were killed, but the speculation might be premature, since we wont have anything 1st person for another 5 books (Shalash and Taln are supposedly books 9 and 10 I think). Thats like a decade of waiting before the speculation is resolved

Jasnah is currently slotted for 10. Ash and Taln are 8 and 9 I believe... 

That said, I don't think everything is going to wait for the back half. The Heralds and the Oathpact, the creation of the blades sure. The mechanics of how the blades work? That'd already important. 

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@Calderis I thought Renarin was book 10..? 
I don’t think the direct feed from honor will work without the shard allowing it explicitly.. or I think Dalinar should be able to stop the direct feed anyway since he has the power of attorney on honor’s corpse..

Edited by The traveller
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9 minutes ago, The traveller said:

@Calderis I thought Renarin was book 10..? 
I don’t think the direct feed from honor will work without the shard allowing it explicitly.. or I think Dalinar should be able to stop the direct feed anyway since he has the power of attorney on honor’s corpse..

On the book order. 

Quote

Questioner

Could you tell me whose books are the next few Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Eshonai, book four. (Even though, you know...) Szeth is book five. Six is Lift. Seven is Renarin. Eight is Ash. Nine is Taln. Ten is Jasnah.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

For the rest of it, if the direct feed is a property of the blades themselves then no, no one would be able to stop it. 

Quote

RandyD

Can a Shard just--like, say someone is using their magic system--can they stop the power from them being able to use it?

Brandon Sanderson

No, that's a bit like stopping the laws of physics. So, while they can circumvent laws of physics and things like that, but if you wanted to stop someone from using magic, smiting them would be the efficient way of making that happen, if you are capable of it in the system.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

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18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

For the rest of it, if the direct feed is a property of the blades themselves then no, no one would be able to stop it. 

But I don’t think that an honorblade provide direct feed in and of itself.. I think honor was very concerned about the power levels that surgebinders can attain, because of Ashyn and he always reassured that he can safeguard against that happening.. So I am sure that the direct feed to honor is something tanavast or the vessel of shard or in this case, Dalinar should be able to regulate.. or stop if need be.. 

It also seems very likely that only the  Herald who actually swore the oathpact and not just any hooligan who came across an honorblade will have access to the direct feed because it is the shard of honor and oaths are important 

 

Edited by The traveller
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