BoM ending

[Koloss17]

So I was rereading the bands of mourning and I am honestly a tad confused about the ending.

1) is there a canon answer to how the bands of mourning got to that temple? Is it because somehow Vin never decided to go back and reclaim the bands, then Sazed put them there when he recreated the world? Did Kelsier somehow get hold of them when he was a cognitive shadow after the world’s rebirth? I don’t think these are answered in the book, but My understanding so far is that that temple is to worship Kelsier, so he must have something to do with it, right?

2) How did Kelsier get spiked? In the coins, the statue, and the epilogue, which I believe all are talking about Kelsier, he had a spike through one eye. How did he get it? He didn’t die through the eye, right? Is it Hemalurgic? If so, what would be the point of it? A cognitive shadow can’t use any sort of metallic art right? Also, is there a reason for the mirroring between Marsh’s and Kelsier’s pierced eyes?

 

 

 

 

[RShara]

The Bands were made by Kelsier, not by Vin or the Lord Ruler. Kelsier then went and put them up north for unknown reasons. Wax makes the mistaken assumption that the Sovereign was The Lord Ruler and wasn't contradicted at the time. But the facts match up to Kelsier, not the Lord Ruler.

The spike in his eye is stapling his Cognitive Shadow to the body he's using. We don't know the exact mechanics of it, or how Kelsier figured it out/managed to get it to work,  but that's the basic idea.

Both of Marsh's eyes are spiked, Kelsier just has one spike. So they're not mirroring each other.

Edited November 18, 2019 by RShara

[bnel21]

15 minutes ago, RShara said:

The spike in his eye is stapling his Cognitive Shadow to the body he's using. We don't know the exact mechanics of it, or how Kelsier figured it out/managed to get it to work,  but that's the basic idea.

 Is it confirmed that the eye spike is the reason he was able to 'use' a new body?  I had thought he was full of spikes in order to make the Bands originally and that the eye spike was similar to the one Inquisitors had granting him the same allomantic/feruchemical ability it granted them.  Kelsier basically spikes himself all the way to becoming a Fullborn for the most part is how I had interpreted it.  

[RShara]

Just now, bnel21 said:

 Is it confirmed that the eye spike is the reason he was able to 'use' a new body?  I had thought he was full of spikes in order to make the Bands originally and that the eye spike was similar to the one Inquisitors had granting him the same allomantic/feruchemical ability it granted them.  Kelsier basically spikes himself all the way to becoming a Fullborn for the most part is how I had interpreted it.  

Yep

Quote

Questioner

In Bands of Mourning, we learned that the Sovereign, who they confused as being the Lord Ruler, came after the Catacendre. [He] was their god, was their king and god. And then Kelsier looking for a string. Is the spike somehow connecting Kelsier's soul to Spook's body.

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question. It is connecting his soul with his body, his current body, but it is not Spook's body. That's a great theory.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

He probably does have more spikes than that one, that he uses as needed. But that's the only confirmed one, and it is confirmed to be holding his soul in that body.

[bnel21]

Cool, thank you for the clarification.  I remember seeing that now.  Although I can nitpick and say Brandon never said 'The spike in his eye' 

[Koloss17]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

The Bands were made by Kelsier, not by Vin or the Lord Ruler. Kelsier then went and put them up north for unknown reasons. Wax makes the mistaken assumption that the Sovereign was The Lord Ruler and wasn't contradicted at the time. But the facts match up to Kelsier, not the Lord Ruler.

The spike in his eye is stapling his Cognitive Shadow to the body he's using. We don't know the exact mechanics of it, or how Kelsier figured it out/managed to get it to work,  but that's the basic idea.

Both of Marsh's eyes are spiked, Kelsier just has one spike. So they're not mirroring each other.

Ooooooh that makes sense! Thanks!

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

Yep

He probably does have more spikes than that one, that he uses as needed. But that's the only confirmed one, and it is confirmed to be holding his soul in that body.

Debatable.  Having held a Shard, he'd likely know enough choose to avoid that second Spike, even assuming he trusts Harmony not to abuse the control it would grant.

[RShara]

39 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Debatable.  Having held a Shard, he'd likely know enough choose to avoid that second Spike, even assuming he trusts Harmony not to abuse the control it would grant.

Yeah, which is why I said "probably". It's definitely not confirmed, but it makes sense to me that he'd have spikes he puts in/takes out as needed.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

When I first thought of this I assumed Kelsier spiked hisself up to fullborn status as well . With more than one spike Harmony could see him and take control if he wanted to . I didn’t think this was a deterrent because Harmony wouldn’t take control of Kelsier unless he was acting like Paalm and being a threat . So I said why not . 

        Then another idea struck me . Vin was researching a way to control Kollos because they had to many spikes . So it’s concievable another Shard could possibly do the same . 

       Plus all Kelsier had to do was make two sets of the bands of Morning . Then he would only need one spike . Could have all the powers and no weakness . Kelsier would want all the powers and he wouldn’t want any weaknesses . While it’s not confirmed I’ll bet any kind of money he has metalmind that gives him all the powers he would want . The only power i doubt he would have is Atium . Since marsh is the only one known to still possess. A few balls of that metal . 

          Electrum is still available to him though , and that is close enough . 

[+Invocation]

2 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

With more than one spike Harmony could see him and take control if he wanted to .

Isn't it three for humans to be hijacked by a Shard? All he'd need to do is give himself double nicrosil and he's Fullborn, if I'm understanding how nicrosil works, while still remaining under the limit.

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Isn't it three for humans to be hijacked by a Shard? All he'd need to do is give himself double nicrosil and he's Fullborn, if I'm understanding how nicrosil works, while still remaining under the limit.

Four. Two for Kandra, four for humans. 

Koloss can be controlled because they have four spikes, and the set are limited to "three boons" 

[+Invocation]

Just now, Calderis said:

Four. Two for Kandra, four for humans. 

Koloss can be controlled because they have four spikes, and the set are limited to "three boons" 

Ah, my bad. Thanks for the clarification!

[Kingsdaughter613]

Being spiked opens you up to be influenced, even if it isn’t enough for control. I doubt Kell is going to risk more than he has to in this regard. Being controlled or influenced by an unknown is something he’d want to avoid at all costs.

He was much older than most when he Snapped. He liked being Mistborn, embraced it, but it wasn’t an integral part of his identity. He’s disappointed when he doesn’t have them anymore, but he recovers almost immediately. He didn’t have feruchemical powers at all.

As useful as they are, I don’t see him going to the trouble of spiking/unspiking himself to create the bands so he can access the powers. Sure, he could, but why bother? He manages far more by conning others into doing things for him. He inspires loyalty; just convince some Ferrings to do it for you! Unless he had a really good reason to be overpowered, I don’t see him bothering with it.

Which is why I think he found another means of gaining those powers. Specifically, the original way. He held Preservation; he should know (or have a vague, half remembered idea) of how that happened. He remembers quite a bit about Hemalurgy, which he wasn’t focusing on and wasn’t Preservation’s system. Feruchemy is shared between the two; I find it highly unlikely that Kell has no idea as to how one goes about acquiring it.

As an aside, I think the cruelest thing that could be done to Kell is to remove his ability to communicate. He sees himself as a manipulator and con artist. It’s far more integral to him than any power set could be. Take that away... and who is he?

[danox46]

 

9 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Being spiked opens you up to be influenced, even if it isn’t enough for control. I doubt Kell is going to risk more than he has to in this regard. Being controlled or influenced by an unknown is something he’d want to avoid at all costs.

He was much older than most when he Snapped. He liked being Mistborn, embraced it, but it wasn’t an integral part of his identity. He’s disappointed when he doesn’t have them anymore, but he recovers almost immediately. He didn’t have feruchemical powers at all.

As useful as they are, I don’t see him going to the trouble of spiking/unspiking himself to create the bands so he can access the powers. Sure, he could, but why bother? He manages far more by conning others into doing things for him. He inspires loyalty; just convince some Ferrings to do it for you! Unless he had a really good reason to be overpowered, I don’t see him bothering with it.

Which is why I think he found another means of gaining those powers. Specifically, the original way. He held Preservation; he should know (or have a vague, half remembered idea) of how that happened. He remembers quite a bit about Hemalurgy, which he wasn’t focusing on and wasn’t Preservation’s system. Feruchemy is shared between the two; I find it highly unlikely that Kell has no idea as to how one goes about acquiring it.

As an aside, I think the cruelest thing that could be done to Kell is to remove his ability to communicate. He sees himself as a manipulator and con artist. It’s far more integral to him than any power set could be. Take that away... and who is he?

There are clues that Spook became a full Ferrochemist after Sazed made him Mistborn. They said he ruled for a hundred years, it's possible Sazed made people live longer or even that he got a hold of some breath. However, I think it's likely he became a full Ferrochemist somehow, maybe he used spikes or something else. Then he created the bands so Kelsier would have power. Just a Theory.

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

22 hours ago, danox46 said:

 

There are clues that Spook became a full Ferrochemist after Sazed made him Mistborn. They said he ruled for a hundred years, it's possible Sazed made people live longer or even that he got a hold of some breath. However, I think it's likely he became a full Ferrochemist somehow, maybe he used spikes or something else. Then he created the bands so Kelsier would have power. Just a Theory.

 

Being immortal (very long lived) is actually the easy one. Spook was already a Mistborn; all he needed was F Atium and a supply of the metal. What is hinted at is that Spook and Kell somehow found a source of it. We’re pretty much told that that’s how he did it.

One spike for F Atium is rather different than acquiring all 16 metals - including the ones that there were no existing spikes for and were likely not discovered for some time after the Catascande. More than ten years anyway. The technology involved makes it tricky; it takes time to build infrastructure from scratch. Unless Spook and Kell spiked four people later (not impossible) they wouldn’t even have four of the metals! 

But that creates the big problem with your theory; one of those metals is Nicrosil. There were Nicrosil mistings, but they didn’t have Nicrosil spikes. And there were no Feruchemists. Any Soulbearer Ferrings would have been children, ten years after the Catascande. So the oldest Soulbearer would have been around nine, if one was born exactly 9 months after the Catascande.

Unless Spook and Kell brutally murdered a nine year old, I don’t see how they could have gotten a Feruchemical nicrosil spike in time. And Kell definitely had access to F Nicrosil; he couldn’t have made the original medallions otherwise. Which means he had another way of accessing Feruchemical Nicrosil... and likely all the other such abilities.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Kingsdaughter613

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Unless Spook and Kell brutally murdered a nine year old, I don’t see how they could have gotten a Feruchemical nicrosil spike in time. And Kell definitely had access to F Nicrosil; he couldn’t have made the original medallions otherwise. Which means he had another way of accessing Feruchemical Nicrosil... and likely all the other such abilities.

No you forgot something : I’m assuming u read the short story :

Spoiler

Kelsier found all the stell inquisitor spikes . One of them could of been nocrosil . Kelsier held the powers of preservation so he understood ferachemical powers as no one did . The body he spiked could of been a nicrosil ferring. 

 

[Govir]

On 11/18/2019 at 10:18 PM, Calderis said:

Four. Two for Kandra, four for humans. 

Koloss can be controlled because they have four spikes, and the set are limited to "three boons" 

To clarify, those numbers are only the amount of spikes each has. Kandra have 2 spikes, with the pair being called a Blessing. Koloss have 4 spikes.

Afaik, any creature only requires two spikes to be controlled by Ruin/Harmony. This is seen with the Kandra in Era 1, and again with a particular Kandra in Era 2.

Calderis reminded me of Suit's speech about this.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Govir

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Govir said:

Afaik, any creature only requires two spikes to be controlled by Ruin/Harmony. This is seen with the Kandra in Era 1, and again with a particular Kandra in Era 2.

Again, Suit says that they are limited to three boons. 

Humans need 4 spikes to be controlled. Kandra are different because they're no longer human. 

[Govir]

@Calderis Ahh, you're right. I forgot about Suit's speech about it. Carry on.

[GoWibble]

Not being helpful, but 

RAFO!!

[Kingsdaughter613]

10 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

No you forgot something : I’m assuming u read the short story :

  Reveal hidden contents

Kelsier found all the stell inquisitor spikes . One of them could of been nocrosil . Kelsier held the powers of preservation so he understood ferachemical powers as no one did . The body he spiked could of been a nicrosil ferring. 

 

No, because Nicrosil was one of the metals they didn’t have/know about. Nicrosil requires silicon. Getting pure silicon is tricky. While technically possible to create, it is unlikely that anyone did so prior to the Catascande.

Thus, the Inquisitors would not have had a Feruchemical nicrosil spike. Which is why Kell and Spook would have had to make one - and to do so within the first ten years. Unless, of course, they had another way of accessing the ability...

[danox46]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 11/20/2019 at 9:21 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Being immortal (very long lived) is actually the easy one. Spook was already a Mistborn; all he needed was F Atium and a supply of the metal. What is hinted at is that Spook and Kell somehow found a source of it. We’re pretty much told that that’s how he did it.

One spike for F Atium is rather different than acquiring all 16 metals - including the ones that there were no existing spikes for and were likely not discovered for some time after the Catascande. More than ten years anyway. The technology involved makes it tricky; it takes time to build infrastructure from scratch. Unless Spook and Kell spiked four people later (not impossible) they wouldn’t even have four of the metals! 

But that creates the big problem with your theory; one of those metals is Nicrosil. There were Nicrosil mistings, but they didn’t have Nicrosil spikes. And there were no Feruchemists. Any Soulbearer Ferrings would have been children, ten years after the Catascande. So the oldest Soulbearer would have been around nine, if one was born exactly 9 months after the Catascande.

Unless Spook and Kell brutally murdered a nine year old, I don’t see how they could have gotten a Feruchemical nicrosil spike in time. And Kell definitely had access to F Nicrosil; he couldn’t have made the original medallions otherwise. Which means he had another way of accessing Feruchemical Nicrosil... and likely all the other such abilities.

Yeah, I agree that spikes are not all that likely. However, we know that Kelsier eventually got those powers. Maybe Hoid was involved somehow. There's a metal that makes you Mistborn, I don't think it's such a huge lead to assume there's a way to become a full ferrochemist too.

[Kingsdaughter613]

9 minutes ago, danox46 said:

Yeah, I agree that spikes are not all that likely. However, we know that Kelsier eventually got those powers. Maybe Hoid was involved somehow. There's a metal that makes you Mistborn, I don't think it's such a huge lead to assume there's a way to become a full ferrochemist too.

There is a method, but we don’t know it yet.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

1 hour ago, danox46 said:

Yeah, I agree that spikes are not all that likely. However, we know that Kelsier eventually got those powers. Maybe Hoid was involved somehow. There's a metal that makes you Mistborn, I don't think it's such a huge lead to assume there's a way to become a full ferrochemist too.

I was thinking the exact same thing . That’s why I made the post “ is there a way other than Hemalurgy to become a ferachemist ! When Kelsier held the powers of Preservation he probably discovered a simple way to access fetachemy. Used that method then made the bands of morning . He didn’t have time to wait until and adult nicrosil ferring natured .

[teknopathetic]

On 2019-11-21 at 4:01 PM, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I was thinking the exact same thing . That’s why I made the post “ is there a way other than Hemalurgy to become a ferachemist ! When Kelsier held the powers of Preservation he probably discovered a simple way to access fetachemy. Used that method then made the bands of morning . He didn’t have time to wait until and adult nicrosil ferring natured .

I can't find the quote on reddit but someone in another thread has, but Feruchemy was given to the Terris as a gift. We don't know how it was given or by who, but that is an interesting fact even if it leads to more questions than it answers. At least it scratches off the "random mutation" possibility. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by teknopathetic